The Dizzying World of Colt SAA Clones

[Noah]

Like many, I've always loved the cowboy guns. I had a .45 Colt Heritage Big Bore that I reloaded for with a Lee hand kit, but I gave it to my younger brother who likes cowboy guns even more than I do.

At some point in the next few years, I'll be getting another. I know there's the Rugers, and then the importers of Ubertis and Piettas like Cimarron and Taylor's, and then Uberti and Pietta import as well.

I already know I like 4-3/4", and probably a .357/.38 with factory ammo instead of reloading like I used to. Just don't have time, even if it was fun.

I'm not a purist, just a shooter, and if the budget was unlimited I'd just get a Blackhawk for the adjustable sights and durability. That said, a case hardened frame and black grips sure does look nice. I'd be fine even with a safety-free original style action if available. I like simple and reliable.

A few questions:
I hear a lot about the hammer mounted floating firing pin safety on the Ubertis being fragile. Is that true?

I hear a lot that 9mm guns with .38/357 barrels are inaccurate. Is that true? If yes, do any of the dedicated 9mm guns like the Cimarron Pistolero 9mm not have this problem?

How do I even tell (online, not inspecting in person) which guns have traditional no safety, the Uberti style safety, or a transfer bar safety? Many website descriptions seem vague.

[jh9]

How do I even tell (online, not inspecting in person) which guns have traditional no safety, the Uberti style safety, or a transfer bar safety? Many website descriptions seem vague.

I'm not a single action expert but I believe the Pietta-manufactured EMF Great Western II is the current "period correct(ish), and not at all safe to carry 6 in"? You will want someone else to verify that before spending money.

[fatdog]

I have not owned one of the newer floating firing pin Uberti's but I have heard they are more fragile, just talk among CAS shooters and that breeds preferences for the ones that don't have it since the sport is 5 rounds in the gun and it does not matter for it to be there. I have no substantial evidence to support that it is fragile, haven't seen one break in actual use.

The bore diameter thing between the .355 and .357 is a thing, to accomodate .357 or .38 special factory ammo the bore will be larger than what is ideal for factory 9mm ammmo, but nobody in CAS shoots 9mm so I don't have first hand experience on that, a friend who is a dabbler and not a competitor bought one of the 9/357 convertibles and was not pleased at all but I don't know if it was solely accuracy or his inexperience with SAA....he dumped it.

To the best of my knowledge all Rugers and Weirauch (EAA) guns made in the last decade or so have the transfer bar safety and no Uberti or Pietta made guns, regardless of the importer, ever have. The Uberti guns only had that firing pin thing after a certain date and I am unsure when that came to be.

Amongst the SAA clone vendors, Dixie Gun Works probably has the most knowledgeable staff I can think of and if you bought from them they could certainly tell you about the Uberti firing pin safety being present or not in a specific model.

Amongst the importers, I think you could get the answer from Cimmaron, Chiappa, or even Uberti USA on a specific model if it has that new fangled firing pin safety because they have those guns made to their specs and it can be excluded.

To the best of my knowledge no Pietta ever had that new firing pin safety.

[Noah]

To the best of my knowledge all Rugers and Weirauch (EAA) guns made in the last decade or so have the transfer bar safety and no Uberti or Pietta made guns, regardless of the importer, ever have. The Uberti guns only had that firing pin thing after a certain date and I am unsure when that came to be.

Amongst the SAA clone vendors, Dixie Gun Works probably has the most knowledgeable staff I can think of and if you bought from them they could certainly tell you about the Uberti firing pin safety being present or not in a specific model...

To the best of my knowledge no Pietta ever had that new firing pin safety.

The Heritage Big Bore made by Pietta (I'm pretty sure) definitely has a Ruger style transfer bar and a flat hammer with no pin (that I'm sure about- I owned one haha)

Thank you for the great info! Good idea on reaching out to Dixie or an importer.

jh9 I forgot about the EMF Piettas. Add those to the list haha

[jh9]

To the best of my knowledge no Pietta ever had that new firing pin safety.

Since this is an active thread and I'd like to have a better understanding of the modern repro SAAs: IIRC there were a couple other attempts to achieve the same thing (drop safety) with a longer base pin? I believe those can be corrected by just replacing that base pin?

[Noah]

Since this is an active thread and I'd like to have a better understanding of the modern repro SAAs: IIRC there were a couple other attempts to achieve the same thing (drop safety) with a longer base pin? I believe those can be corrected by just replacing that base pin?

I always saw the safety basepins more as an import safery/ child safety gun disabling feature. Push base pin deeper in to prevent hammer hitting pin, gun is disabled.

[Jim Watson]

Right, the "Swissafe" long, double notched base pin can be replaced with standard or just cut off to standard length.

Uberti used to have a hammer block actuated by a pushrod in the quarter cock notch. They put a lot of them on but I recall little if any discussion of the type.

There are traditionalists replacing the Uberti retractile firing pin hammers with standard; parts are available from
https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=23&cat=Uberti+1873+Cattleman+SAA+and+Target

Some Piettas have transfer bars, not readily replaceable with standard.

[Noah]

Here is what I got back from Greg at Cimarron:

"Cimarron does still offer several models of the 1873 SAA that have the original "Colt" action and are 4-click revolvers. All Pietta manufactured 1873 SAA revolvers are 4-click. All Uberti manufactured 1873 SAA – Old Model Frame – revolvers are 4-click. All Uberti manufactured 1873 SAA – Arizona Ranger – Pre-War Frame - revolvers are 4-click guns. All Pietta manufactured gun’s “Model #” begins with the letters “PP” or “PPP”. All Uberti manufactured gun’s “Model #” begins with the letters “MP”, “CA” or “AR”. The bottom line is if you want a Uberti manufactured revolver built on the “Pre-War Frame” that has the original 4-click action the Cimarron “Arizona Ranger” revolver is the only option remaining.



Hope that helps!!!"

[Dave T]

If you're really interested in Single Actions, and clones of the original SAA by Colt, you owe it to yourself to at least take a look at the guns once made by USFA. You can find them today on most all the auction sites...but brace yourself for the prices. Since USFA closed their doors in ~2011 the prices of theses guns has continued to rise steadily, particularly the later production guns made from all USA sourced parts. They are as close as you can get to a brand new 1st Gen Colt (pre-WWII) as you can get.

Here are a few of mine:

109495

A 7-1/2" 45 Colt with a black powder frame, in what USFA called their "Gunslinger" finish. I hate that name but it is an actual finish they applied instead of just a rusted gun that's been cleaned.

109496

Here I've aged the stocks to better match the appearance of the gun.

109497

This is a 4-3/4" Pre-War model also with the black powder frame and also chambered for the 45 Colt cartridge. It has what they called their Arsenal Blue finish with the frame and hammer done in Bone Case Color Hardening.

There's more but they will start yelling at me for stolen band width if I keep it up. I'm obviously a big fan of these guns which I bought back when they were expensive but not for the bat guano crazy prices they are asking on the auctions. If you are interested and keep looking good deals do come up but they're usual private sales.

Anyway, just another look at what you described as "The Dizzying World of Colt SAA Clones".

Dave

[Borderland]

I didn't need to see that 71/2''.

[Rex G]

Loving the USFA goodness. I have a few of the USFA sixguns, and even one that could be termed USPFA, from when the word “Patent” was still being used. Of course, a USPFA would be mostly, if not totally made with Uberti parts. I bought the USPFA new, in the Nineties, and the others pre-owned, before the prices went “bat guano crazy,” as Dave T eloquently stated.

For some time, I had a plan to eventually acquire a well-preserved Second-Generation Colt, that was manufactured during or near my birth year of 1961, but, that has largely faded, as priorities change, and I managed to acquire a Colt DA snubby of similar vintage, to be my “token” Colt.

[awp_101]

There's more but they will start yelling at me for stolen band width if I keep it up.
Just tell them to never no mind and hush up!

The only downside to posting more USFA pics is it reminds me of the ones I had in the mid-00s and sold because SAA sights drive me nuts. Should have hung on to a couple just to admire...

[Dave T]

...SAA sights drive me nuts.

awp,

With practice (and the right glasses) I've gotten reasonably consistent with my USFA fix-sighted revolvers. That's 10" round plate consistent out to ~20 yards. And I'm shooting full power, black powder loads strong hand unsupported.

Since this thread has turned into more fun that anything, here's a few more from the safe:

109542

This is one of their satin nickel Sheriff's Models with a 3" barrel. Chambered in 45 Colt naturally and wearing buffalo horn stocks. I didn't like the IPSC look of the original finish and a friend from Idaho told me to take a lead-removal cloth and polish away at it. eventually it takes on the look of "old" nickel plating. I've started the project but it needs still more work.

109543

This is USFA's reproduction of a rare modified Cavalry Colt from the "Artillery Model" refurbishing. Gram, Copec, & Moore chronicle that about 200 (and possibly as many as 400) arsenal Colt SAAs that were never issued or even fired did not get the full blue, mix up the parts treatment the other re-built SAAs received. Their barrels were removed, shortened to 5-1/2", had new front sights installed, and then were reinstalled in the proper frames. A number of these have been documented and records indicate there were more out there.

109544

And finally, this is what I think of as my 'Hollywood' gun. It's what John Wayne's much seen Single Action Colt would have looked like when brand new. It is a late production USFA 45 Colt with the appropriate 4-3/4" barre, black powder frame of course, and fake Ivory stocks. And wouldn't you know, it shoots my BP hand loads pretty good. (smile)

Dave

[37th Mass]

Here is what I got back from Greg at Cimarron:

"Cimarron does still offer several models of the 1873 SAA that have the original "Colt" action and are 4-click revolvers. All Pietta manufactured 1873 SAA revolvers are 4-click. All Uberti manufactured 1873 SAA – Old Model Frame – revolvers are 4-click. All Uberti manufactured 1873 SAA – Arizona Ranger – Pre-War Frame - revolvers are 4-click guns. All Pietta manufactured gun’s “Model #” begins with the letters “PP” or “PPP”. All Uberti manufactured gun’s “Model #” begins with the letters “MP”, “CA” or “AR”. The bottom line is if you want a Uberti manufactured revolver built on the “Pre-War Frame” that has the original 4-click action the Cimarron “Arizona Ranger” revolver is the only option remaining.



Hope that helps!!!"

I just bought (last week) a Cimarron Uberti "Artillery" model that is a 4-click gun. This one:

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/u-s-v-artillery-45-lc-5-1-2-standard-blue.html

[Super77]

Looking at some of those USFA guns, for that price why not just get the actual Colt?

[Rex G]

Looking at some of those USFA guns, for that price why not just get the actual Colt?

USFA, especially the ones manufactured during the era of all-USA parts, are not second-best.

It is quite difficult to find pre-owned Colts in decent condition. Colts seem to be either pristine, and therefore prohibitively expensive, or, beat all to he11 by idiots playing “fanning” with them, slamming the hammer back with the heel of the hand, Hollywood style.

A properly-timed Colt is not supposed to have a turn line. At the first sign that the bolt is starting to drag, the informed SAA owner has the timing corrected. I have seen so very many otherwise-clean Colts, with turn lines, that I suspect that they had left the factory with improperly-tuned actions.

The QC with Third-Generation Colts has been all over the place, but all too often has been dismal. The one Third-Generation Colt that I bought new seemed to have gravel in the action. Upon (careful) disassembly, I found poorly-fitted parts, with rough edges, that seemed to have been merely assembled drop-in style. I soon traded it away, to a dealer who mostly sells to collectors, for an actually decent price.

For purists, and even somewhat less-demanding aficionados, Third-Generation SAA Colts are seen as less-accurate replicas of the “real thing” than the fully-USA-made USFA Single Actions.

[37th Mass]

Standard Manufacturing makes an SAA replica. I've never handled one myself, but some folks on the interwebs say that they are as nice as the USFA guns and perhaps nicer than Colt.

https://stdgun.com/single-action-revolver-case-colored-45-lc/

Bud's has some in stock for less than the price shown on the Standard Manufacturing website.


I considered a Colt or a Standard Manufacturing revolver, but I wanted a range toy that I can shoot with my kids, not a collector's piece. Price was also a consideration. I'm happy with my Cimarron/Uberti. I posted a pic in the Gallery subforum in the Single Action Revolver thread.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40256-Single-action-revolver-pic-thread&p=1510834&viewfull=1#post1510834

[Jim Watson]

STI once showed a SAA called the Texican. Not many made, one internet expert said they were made for STI by Hartford Armory, better known for their attempt to bring out a deluxe 1875 Remington.

[jh9]

STI once showed a SAA called the Texican. Not many made, one internet expert said they were made for STI by Hartford Armory, better known for their attempt to bring out a deluxe 1875 Remington.

https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/featured_handguns_hg_stitexican_2008901/138377


The Texican is 100 percent U.S. made at STI's facility in Connecticut, where it manufactures every single component except the springs; the frame, loading gate and hammer are color case hardened by Turnbull Restorations--a company renown for its superb quality in case-hardening.

https://stdgun.com/single-action-revolver-case-colored-45-lc/


To start, this entire gun is made of solid 4140 steel; there are no inferior cast or metal injection molded parts used. No other maker of this type of gun can make such a claim. Additionally, the precision machining equipment used in the manufacture of our guns is the absolute finest in the industry and because the machining is done in-house

There's a lot of familiar-sounding wording there. There's also some pics somewhere of Standard Manufacturing with parts in-process similar to how you can find tours of the S&W factory showing the gun going from a raw piece of metal, to a metal pancake forging, to various states of machining, to completed parts.

The names of the companies change over the years but there seems to be some persistence on building these types of high quality copies in the area and doing most or all of the work in-house. As you say, apparently it was Hartford Armory in 2010. Then very shortly after, they fold and USFA goes from being an importer of Uberti parts to building their own parts in Colt's old facilities in Hartford. Then selling their tooling so they could build that Zip gun abomination. Then they go under and Standard Manufacturing comes along (already building shotguns, and presumably the buyer of that tooling?) building their own parts in house, not in Hartford but still in Connecticut.

I assumed it's just local machine shops that started out as vendors doing work for Colt on contract and eventually branched out into manufacturing their own guns. But there also seems to be someone in the area constantly scraping up the capital to take yet another shot at making high-quality copies of the SAA right on Colt's doorstep. I'd love to know the whole story there.

[Jim Watson]

made at STI's facility in Connecticut

I thought STI was located in Texas. They are now, dba Staccato. So did they move? Or did they have a cut of that wandering set of tooling?

[Noah]

I just bought (last week) a Cimarron Uberti "Artillery" model that is a 4-click gun. This one:

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/u-s-v-artillery-45-lc-5-1-2-standard-blue.html


Thats a pre 1896 "Black Powder" 1st gen frame, which the email says is still fixed firing pin

[37th Mass]

Here is a picture of the hammer and firing pin on my Uberti. I don't know enough about SAA clones to tell what type it is just by looking at it. It does wiggle a little. But it does not push back at all no matter what position the hammer is in.

109616

[Jim Watson]

The concave point and a little wiggle is the “smokeless” firing pin. A rigid conical firing pin is the old “black powder “ pattern. Standard Arms uses that in their deluxe SA.

[Noah]

Here is a picture of the hammer and firing pin on my Uberti. I don't know enough about SAA clones to tell what type it is just by looking at it. It does wiggle a little. But it does not push back at all no matter what position the hammer is in.

109616

The Pre 1896 frame style Cimarron Ubertis like you have, have the fixed (pinned in place with tiny wiggle) firing pin, original 4 click action.

[M2CattleCo]

Looking at some of those USFA guns, for that price why not just get the actual Colt?

I own 3rd gen Colts and US made USFAs.

The USFAs are better guns but they’re 2.5oz heavier than a Colt and the cylinder and frame are just a little different and they don’t feel like a Colt.

Love ‘em both.

The USFA is a Uberti clone.

A Cimarron Model P is a Pietta and a closer clone to a Colt than a Uberti.

[M2CattleCo]

USFA, especially the ones manufactured during the era of all-USA parts, are not second-best.

It is quite difficult to find pre-owned Colts in decent condition. Colts seem to be either pristine, and therefore prohibitively expensive, or, beat all to he11 by idiots playing “fanning” with them, slamming the hammer back with the heel of the hand, Hollywood style.

A properly-timed Colt is not supposed to have a turn line. At the first sign that the bolt is starting to drag, the informed SAA owner has the timing corrected. I have seen so very many otherwise-clean Colts, with turn lines, that I suspect that they had left the factory with improperly-tuned actions.

The QC with Third-Generation Colts has been all over the place, but all too often has been dismal. The one Third-Generation Colt that I bought new seemed to have gravel in the action. Upon (careful) disassembly, I found poorly-fitted parts, with rough edges, that seemed to have been merely assembled drop-in style. I soon traded it away, to a dealer who mostly sells to collectors, for an actually decent price.

For purists, and even somewhat less-demanding aficionados, Third-Generation SAA Colts are seen as less-accurate replicas of the “real thing” than the fully-USA-made USFA Single Actions.


If you drop the hammer from 1/2 cock and spin the cylinder to lock it it will put a drag line around it. That’s where most of the turn lines come from.

I have 4 3rd gen Colts and the bolt drop is perfect from the factory on all of them.

[Rex G]

If you drop the hammer from 1/2 cock and spin the cylinder to lock it it will put a drag line around it. That’s where most of the turn lines come from.

I have 4 3rd gen Colts and the bolt drop is perfect from the factory on all of them.

I had read/heard that there was a way to directly cause a drag line, and knew that it involved lowering the hammer directly from half cock, but had never read a step-by-step DIY “tutorial” on how to do it. ;)

When advising on SAA-pattern revolver ownership/handling, or when asked why my cylinders have no drag lines, I have always simply said “NEVER lower the hammer from any position other than full cock,” or words to that effect.