USPSA 15 round production survey

[JCN]

https://uspsa.org/surveys

Clusterfrack

I would very much consider Production with a 15 round capacity.

It might also pave the way for a future Production Optics division.

[CCT125US]

I get that they only care about the opinions of the members, sort of, but not even those really. But this is the one division I would consider shooting, and I can't vote for it.

[Jim Watson]

I said yes, but even more than IDPA SSP 15, reloads will still be required.

Production Optic, probably draw some entries. But really, multiply divisions by classes and you can have a match with no direct competition, a participation trophy for all.

[JCN]

I said yes, but even more than IDPA SSP 15, reloads will still be required.

Production Optic, probably draw some entries. But really, multiply divisions by classes and you can have a match with no direct competition, a participation trophy for all.

That’s kind of true but it’s self selecting by personalities.

Some people run to a fire, others run away from it. It’s always been like that.

I’d gladly swap Lim10 for Production optics!

[Clusterfrack]

https://uspsa.org/surveys
Clusterfrack

I would very much consider Production with a 15 round capacity.

It might also pave the way for a future Production Optics division.

If Production15 would jumpstart the division, I’d be onboard.

I don’t think we need more divisions.

[JCN]

If Production15 would jumpstart the division, I’d be onboard.

I don’t think we need more divisions.

My thought was looking forward to the next 10 years.

Right now CO and LO look to be hugely popular and that’s just going to increase.

If you ignore PCC:

You have 3 optic pistol divisions (LO, CO, Open)
You have 5 iron pistol divisions (Lim, Lim10, Prod, SS, Revo)

Don’t you think in 10 years it’ll be split or need to be split at least 50:50 optics to irons?

LO, CO, Prod Optics, Open
Lim, Prod, SS, Revo

[cheby]

ignore PCC:


Totally agree

[CleverNickname]

It might also pave the way for a future Production Optics division.
There doesn't need to be yet another division. But dropping CO from a 140mm mag length down to 15 rounds to match Production 15 would make sense.

[JCN]

There doesn't need to be yet another division. But dropping CO from a 140mm mag length down to 15 rounds to match Production 15 would make sense.

But think about 10 years from now. Irons will be antiquated and why have 5 iron pistol divisions with 5% of the total membership?

I think you WILL need another division and to get rid of antiquated ones.

See below:


My thought was looking forward to the next 10 years.

Right now CO and LO look to be hugely popular and that’s just going to increase.

If you ignore PCC:

You have 3 optic pistol divisions (LO, CO, Open)
You have 5 iron pistol divisions (Lim, Lim10, Prod, SS, Revo)

Don’t you think in 10 years it’ll be split or need to be split at least 50:50 optics to irons?

LO, CO, Prod Optics, Open
Lim, Prod, SS, Revo

[JCN]

There doesn't need to be yet another division. But dropping CO from a 140mm mag length down to 15 rounds to match Production 15 would make sense.

But think about 10 years from now. Irons will be antiquated and why have 5 iron pistol divisions with 5% of the total membership?

I think you WILL need another division and to get rid of antiquated ones.

Think of it as a shift in divisions.

See below:


My thought was looking forward to the next 10 years.

Right now CO and LO look to be hugely popular and that’s just going to increase.

If you ignore PCC:

You have 3 optic pistol divisions (LO, CO, Open)
You have 5 iron pistol divisions (Lim, Lim10, Prod, SS, Revo)

Don’t you think in 10 years it’ll be split or need to be split at least 50:50 optics to irons?

LO, CO, Prod Optics, Open
Lim, Prod, SS, Revo

[CleverNickname]

But think about 10 years from now. Irons will be antiquated and why have 5 iron pistol divisions with 5% of the total membership?

I think you WILL need another division and to get rid of antiquated ones.

Think of it as a shift in divisions.

But other than the magazine capacity, what would be the difference in equipment between the current Carry Optics rules and your proposed Production Optics?

[JCS]

There doesn't need to be yet another division. But dropping CO from a 140mm mag length down to 15 rounds to match Production 15 would make sense.

No way. That would kill the popularity of the division. CO is the best thing USPSA has done division wise.

[JCN]

But other than the magazine capacity, what would be the difference in equipment between the current Carry Optics rules and your proposed Production Optics?

Light guns.

Make a 30-33oz weight max or a 4.5” barrel length max.

Basically something more “carry” like.

Kind of like an IDPA CCP but with optics.

Basically CO is middle of the road. LO gets mag wells and huge thumb rests.

Make a less gamey division with lower cap to be downstream.

[YVK]

USPSA has long demonstrated its willingness to live happily thereafter with all kinds of dead divisions so I am not sure why pretend they care about Production. With effectively unlimited gun mass, no trigger pull weight restrictions, and anything goes internal mods it is as gamer as any other minor pf pistol division, and those are endowed with 140 mm mags. 15 capacity is a half step when the division is fully dead. 140 is a historic standard for gamer's mags and they should stick with it as long as they keep on creating more and more gamer rulesets and divisions. If they did bother to develop more practical divisions as discussed above, then we can talk about mag capacity in more depth.

[Clusterfrack]

Light guns.

Make a 30-33oz weight max or a 4.5” barrel length max.

Basically something more “carry” like.

Kind of like an IDPA CCP but with optics.

Basically CO is middle of the road. LO gets mag wells and huge thumb rests.

Make a less gamey division with lower cap to be downstream.

Like what IPSC tried to do with Production Optics and Optics Light? I could get behind that. Even more so if there was a minimum 1st pull trigger weight requirement.



USPSA has long demonstrated its willingness to live happily thereafter with all kinds of dead divisions so I am not sure why pretend they care about Production. With effectively unlimited gun mass, no trigger pull weight restrictions, and anything goes internal mods it is as gamer as any other minor pf pistol division, and those are endowed with 140 mm mags. 15 capacity is a half step when the division is fully dead. 140 is a historic standard for gamer's mags and they should stick with it as long as they keep on creating more and more gamer rulesets and divisions. If they did bother to develop more practical divisions as discussed above, then we can talk about mag capacity in more depth.

15 round mags prevent the arms race we now have in CO, and always had in Lim and Open. And the whole point of Production is Minor, Low Cap, which makes for significantly different strategy than High Cap, and especially High Cap major. I still think Production 10 is the best and most difficult division, but voted for Production15 in the hope that it will bring more people back.

[Jim Watson]

Open is grotesque, Production is a travesty. Low caps are low and fading.

I would run two divisions, what would now be Limited Irons and Limited Optic.
20 rounds, just enough for a Medium CoF.
Unitary power factor, about 9mm NATO.

[JCN]

Open is grotesque, Production is a travesty. Low caps are low and fading.

I would run two divisions, what would now be Limited Irons and Limited Optic.
20 rounds, just enough for a Medium CoF.
Unitary power factor, about 9mm NATO.

I like this idea!

I have no doubt that high cap is being driven by the stage design creep.

I don’t mind a 10 round cap in IDPA because stages are 18 rounds, I don’t aim to miss and I always have to do one reload anyway.

But for a 32 round hosefest with no good reloading places and forced standing reloads x 3… no thanks in USPSA.

At least with 15 round cap, I could get through most COF with one reload.

[YVK]

15 round mags prevent the arms race we now have in CO

How? I see mag capacity as inconsequential in arms racing when compared to allowing 47 oz CZs to wear 9 oz LOK grips and still be OK, thumb rests actual or thinly veiled, gaping magwells, and no restrictions on trigger weights. Whatever capacity they choose, everyone will have the same number of rounds within the division, +/-1. CO/LO, Limited, whatever, everyone spent 35 bucks for a mag extension for each mag, the race is over, everyone is on the same playing field. If the effort is to increase Production participation rates relative to its current dismal state, I think the answer is not in looking at why three remaining participants continue to shoot it. By now 140 mm capacity has been a part of a success recipe for two minor pf divisions. 15 rounds to me is a non-incremental step.

[Clusterfrack]

How? I see mag capacity as inconsequential in arms racing when compared to allowing 47 oz CZs to wear 9 oz LOK grips and still be OK, thumb rests actual or thinly veiled, gaping magwells, and no restrictions on trigger weights. Whatever capacity they choose, everyone will have the same number of rounds within the division, +/-1. CO/LO, Limited, whatever, everyone spent 35 bucks for a mag extension for each mag, the race is over, everyone is on the same playing field. If the effort is to increase Production participation rates relative to its current dismal state, I think the answer is not in looking at why three remaining participants continue to shoot it. By now 140 mm capacity has been a part of a success recipe for two minor pf divisions. 15 rounds to me is a non-incremental step.

This is turning into an interesting discussion. Here's how I would rank importance of guns and division rules:

Ranked based on making the shooting easier/faster/lower risk:

1. Optics
2. High cap
3. Major scoring
4. Comp
5. Light/short trigger
6. Weight
7. Magwell

[CleverNickname]

Light guns.

Make a 30-33oz weight max or a 4.5” barrel length max.

Basically something more “carry” like.

Kind of like an IDPA CCP but with optics.

Basically CO is middle of the road. LO gets mag wells and huge thumb rests.

Make a less gamey division with lower cap to be downstream.

That seems like a good division for IDPA (since it only has one optics division and is supposedly the more "realistic" game), but I don't see the desire for it in USPSA.

[fatdog]

I still shoot production and single stack because 3-5 mag changes in a stage, leaving a trove of magazines behind me in the dirt, dropping lower in the combined club match scores from losing extra time on a stage does not bother me at all.

But I am old and don't care, just happy to get out and run and play with guns still.

I think 15 round production would bring a few of the shooters who actually do care about all those things back to the division, but not troves of them.

It won't change the dynamic of this sport being very much optic dominated at the club level.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We must shoot 10 rounds here. The custom is to shoot 8 and then reload. It is major sin to go to slide lock as that wastes milliseconds and folks intensively study the stage to plan how to move in conjunction with their reloads to save milliseconds. Also being old, I really don't care. I usually shoot 10 and then reload. Sometimes I forget the game and go to slide lock and waste milliseconds as I probably would on DA STREET as I wouldn't want to waste rounds for the zombies.

My concern with mag capacity is RKBA related and the game is irrelevant.

[cheby]

This is turning into an interesting discussion. Here's how I would rank importance of guns and division rules:

Ranked based on making the shooting easier/faster/lower risk:

1. Optics
2. High cap
3. Major scoring
4. Comp
5. Light/short trigger
6. Weight
7. Magwell



Major scoring does not make shooting faster or easier. Quite opposite (Unless in Open with compensators). Recoil control is about 80% of the total score. Extra weight allows a shooter to control a gun in recoil better - making it faster. That is why eliminating weight restriction in Production and CO was a wrong move toward a videogame. There are Open and PCC for that

[Clusterfrack]

Major scoring does not make shooting faster or easier. Quite opposite (Unless in Open with compensators). Recoil control is about 80% of the total score. Extra weight allows a shooter to control a gun in recoil better - making it faster. That is why eliminating weight restriction in Production and CO was a wrong move toward a videogame. There are Open and PCC for that

Good point about major PF. I should add that to the list. I agree that recoil control is important, and a heavy gun helps. But I don’t agree that gun weight is as dominant as other factors. A Glock 34 is still competitive.

[JCN]

That seems like a good division for IDPA (since it only has one optics division and is supposedly the more "realistic" game), but I don't see the desire for it in USPSA.

Maybe? But it seems like I hear about people with plastic guns wanting something like a stock-ish Glock 19 division.

Seems reasonable for people who want to compete with what they carry.

Even though there’s not much demand for it… probably more demand than for iron sight revolver….

It’s ironic that people who like revos, might want / need optics the most.

Steel Challenge offers optic Revo… would like that in regular USPSA Revo!

[cheby]

A Glock 34 is still competitive.

Well I guess it depends on a stage. A hose fest at the local match - yes. Tight long distance partials at the good major - less ideal regardless of the skill level:


https://youtu.be/TEwqDBbwu2w

[YVK]

This is turning into an interesting discussion. Here's how I would rank importance of guns and division rules:

Ranked based on making the shooting easier/faster/lower risk:

1. Optics
2. High cap
3. Major scoring
4. Comp
5. Light/short trigger
6. Weight
7. Magwell

I agree with most of it; weight I think rates higher since all of them are heavy now but that is a minor point. I don't know if easier/faster/lower risk is a primary motivation for people. For example, my attitude to Production is opposite of yours. I find it more suffocating and less creative than hicaps. I am cool with lowcap in 1911 or revo because you can't stuff more into them but when the gun is capable of at least 17 from the factory and we artificially neuter that, the prescriptive nature of this division becomes intolerable to me. That's why I stopped shooting it, not because of the dot.

[YVK]

Tired, double tap.

[Spartan1980]

For example, my attitude to Production is opposite of yours. I find it more suffocating and less creative than hicaps. I am cool with lowcap in 1911 or revo because you can't stuff more into them but when the gun is capable of at least 17 from the factory and we artificially neuter that, the prescriptive nature of this division becomes intolerable to me. That's why I stopped shooting it, not because of the dot.

That's why I never bothered to shoot Production. I didn't see it as practical at all. If I were limited to 10 rounds, I wouldn't bother buying and carrying a gun that would hold 15-17. How it got as popular as it once was, I don't understand. I understand the reasoning for the cap limit, just not the popularity of what it once was.

[YVK]

How it got as popular as it once was, I don't understand. I understand the reasoning for the cap limit, just not the popularity of what it once was.

It was the only pistol division where shooting off the shelf ammo wasn't cost prohibitive, reloading was really cheap, and top competitive guns were still considerably cheaper than top competitive guns in most major pf divisions. I played Production and then later CO because I shoot commercial ammo. Six-eight weeks a year of getting my .45 1911 fix don't play out significantly in costs but full year in .40sw would've been expensive.

[DMF13]

I voted yes, but what I would really like is 140mm mags, in Production, along with:

Change the rules so Open is "racegun" optics, and Limited is "racegun" irons. Make Production "stock" irons, and Carry Optics "stock" optics.

Make the rules the same for Open & Limited, and also Production & CO, with the only difference being the sighting system.

Lets see what happens when we compare the two different sighting systems, where everything else is equal.