View Full Version : USPSA Now Being Sued - Allegedly Not a Valid Corporation
RevolverRob
09-08-2023, 04:19 PM
If I were y'all - I wouldn't be renewing/updating anything. Because EVERYTHING that USPSA BOD has done up to this point leads me to believe that there will not be a USPSA - as such - when the dust settles.
From Practical Shooting Insights.
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steve
09-08-2023, 05:22 PM
If I were y'all - I wouldn't be renewing/updating anything. Because EVERYTHING that USPSA BOD has done up to this point leads me to believe that there will not be a USPSA - as such - when the dust settles.
From Practical Shooting Insights.
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OUCH
YVK and Cheby should join the suit since they just bought life memberships.
They’ll settle out of court. It won’t amount to anything except hopefully they’ll take it more seriously when they decide to ban someone.
Not going to affect the ability of the organization to continue as an organization. Just might not be in Delaware.
Uh…well this is interesting, to say the least.
Joe is (was?) on the Infinity Firearms team, yes?
https://www.ssusa.org/content/the-infinity-firearms-junior-camp/
The one involved in the Cameogate shenanigans last June?
YVK and Cheby should join the suit since they just bought life memberships.
I wanna Troy's ATW and a Glock 19 Optic Division.
camel
09-08-2023, 06:14 PM
They’ll settle out of court. It won’t amount to anything except hopefully they’ll take it more seriously when they decide to ban someone.
Not going to affect the ability of the organization to continue as an organization. Just might not be in Delaware.
Delewares one of the easiest states to incorporate in I’m told. You would be surprised what is registered in that state.
RevolverRob
09-08-2023, 06:19 PM
They’ll settle out of court. It won’t amount to anything except hopefully they’ll take it more seriously when they decide to ban someone.
Not going to affect the ability of the organization to continue as an organization. Just might not be in Delaware.
Oh, I don't think that is going to be the case on either count. The people and money behind this are not looking for a payday. They are looking to dismantle USPSA or at least remove its most valuable asset...
The IPSC Constitution (section 5.9) is actually pretty clear that Regional Affiliations can be suspended if they are in violation of the rules of affiliation, misrepresent members, or mismanage the affairs of the region.
This lawsuit ain't about money. It's about establishing that the USPSA BOD has been in violation of state and/or federal laws, mismanaging the affairs of the region, and not representative of practical shooters in its region. Establishment of those facts will allow a petition to move forward to the IPSC Executive Council to suspend USPSA's IPSC Affiliation.
That is the goal of this lawsuit. If folks end up in other legal trouble or jail, that'll be a bonus for the plaintiffs.
fatdog
09-08-2023, 07:05 PM
They’ll settle out of court.
They might want to but the plantiff may not agree to it. I suspect this guy is out to make his point more than the money....
Oh, I don't think that is going to be the case on either count. The people and money behind this are not looking for a payday. They are looking to dismantle USPSA or at least remove its most valuable asset...
The IPSC Constitution (section 5.9) is actually pretty clear that Regional Affiliations can be suspended if they are in violation of the rules of affiliation, misrepresent members, or mismanage the affairs of the region.
This lawsuit ain't about money. It's about establishing that the USPSA BOD has been in violation of state and/or federal laws, mismanaging the affairs of the region, and not representative of practical shooters in its region. Establishment of those facts will allow a petition to move forward to the IPSC Executive Council to suspend USPSA's IPSC Affiliation.
That is the goal of this lawsuit. If folks end up in other legal trouble or jail, that'll be a bonus for the plaintiffs.
They might want to but the plantiff may not agree to it. I suspect this guy is out to make his point more than the money....
Delewares one of the easiest states to incorporate in I’m told. You would be surprised what is registered in that state.
You guys are the experts in these matters so I defer to your experience and judgment!
I don’t know, but I am not sure USPSA would care if they splintered from IPSC completely.
And I don’t know if the plaintiff wouldn’t be happy with the moral win, reinstatement, apology and a little cash.
While the named defendants may be the board members, the real defendants are all of us, the members of USPSA, as we will end up paying for this.
I have served on the boards of a number of non profit organizations, and not a single time have I had lawyers examine all the historical corporate filings to make sure everything was done to the letter of the law. A deep dive would likely turn up some defect in nearly every organization. Of all the faults of the USPSA board, some historical issue around by-laws or governance hardly seems worthy of condemning the current directors.
A single digit percentage of civil suits make it to trial, and those that do take years not months. Litigation is just a tool to get settlement leverage. The board has made a bunch of enemies and that is not helpful. Frankly I am surprised there hasn't been more litigation by banned members.
fatdog
09-08-2023, 07:26 PM
I wonder if USPSA actually has valid D&O insurance in place. They are so poorly governed by a bunch of folks who know nothing about such things it would not shock me if they were deficient on that count. I guess everybody will know that pretty soon.
The NRA had theirs canceled at one point, and that is pretty scary for the people on the board of an outfit with very limited assets.
Clusterfrack
09-08-2023, 07:41 PM
...Frankly I am surprised there hasn't been more litigation by banned members.
I'm surprised as well. The capricious and punitive "guilt by association" bans hardly seem like actions of a nonprofit required to act in the best interest of members.
I'm surprised as well. The capricious and punitive "guilt by association" bans hardly seem like actions of a nonprofit required to act in the best interest of members.
Banning people turned them into forever enemies. The board (and organization) would have been much better off if they entered into agreements with Stoeger et al to continue their membership with an agreement to be supportive of USPSA. Of course when you have Troy, YML and the board at each other's throats, great decision making was unlikely.
Clusterfrack
09-08-2023, 07:57 PM
Banning people turned them into forever enemies. The board (and organization) would have been much better off if they entered into agreements with Stoeger et al to continue their membership with an agreement to be supportive of USPSA. Of course when you have Troy, YML and the board at each other's throats, great decision making was unlikely.
It's disappointing. Pretty much everyone involved seems to be more interested in themselves than in USPSA.
CleverNickname
09-08-2023, 08:11 PM
Banning people turned them into forever enemies. The board (and organization) would have been much better off if they entered into agreements with Stoeger et al to continue their membership with an agreement to be supportive of USPSA.
Stoeger doesn't seem like the type of guy that would agree to that, at all.
So, if that dude got booted from an entity he says doesn't exist, what was the harm? Seems like the case would have more merit if he sued for being enticed to join to begin with.
IANAL, but does anyone have a link to the actual text of the lawsuit that was filed?
The screen grab picture PSI posted on Instagram I think says "filed in Ohio", so is there someplace you can go to look that up?
IANAL, but does anyone have a link to the actual text of the lawsuit that was filed?
The screen grab picture PSI posted on Instagram I think says "filed in Ohio", so is there someplace you can go to look that up?
Link posted on PSI just now. Downloadable (41M, 268 pages) here, Stark County Court of Common Pleas:
https://www.slideshare.net/PracticalShootingIns/rutkowski-v-uspsa-et-al-2023-260739081
(Can read online, but must register for a Scribd account to download.)
I just read the complaint. With the caveat that a lawsuit is one side's version of events, this makes USPSA and its Board of Directors look very bad. At the least, this is going to be a significant distraction for the organization, and it may end up costing them a meaningful amount of money in legal fees and damages.
I am always amazed by the dumb things people put into writing.
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Link posted on PSI just now. Downloadable (41M, 268 pages) here, Stark County Court of Common Pleas:
https://www.slideshare.net/PracticalShootingIns/rutkowski-v-uspsa-et-al-2023-260739081
(Can read online, but must register for a Scribd account to download.)
Summary of Lawsuit by Page(s):
1-8 Introduction and naming of names
8-16 Summary of events regarding Nationals held at Cameo Shooting Complex, Colorado (State with mag cap ban) (aka "Cameogate" ) June, 2022
17-21 Summary of Wrongful Suspension and Due Process, Summer 2022 to Spring/Summer 2023
22-23 Claim for Relief
24 Statement of Plaintiff Demands for judgement:
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25-268 Supporting Exhibits
RJ, thanks for posting this. The main complaint is only 20 something pages and is worth a read if you care about USPSA.
Interesting they filed it on the start of Open Nationals, likely timed for maximum impact. The plaintiff has likely spent five figures on the preparation of this lawsuit. If the plaintiff prevails with venue in Ohio, USPSA will have to hire local counsel and deal with whatever peculiarities there are to Ohio state law and civil procedures. This isn't frivolous and likely to easily go away.
Glenn E. Meyer
09-09-2023, 10:06 AM
Sigh, I just want to shoot at things.
RevolverRob
09-09-2023, 01:23 PM
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vcdgrips
09-09-2023, 01:42 PM
Random thoughts
Caveats-I have not read the complaint. My knowledge of corporate law peaked in mid July 1992 right before I took the bar exam.
1. Opining that a civil lawsuit will settle is not much of a stretch as 95%+ do on routine basis. It literally is just this side of the Sun is going to rise tomorrow.
2. Generally-the ones that don’t are frivolous and brought by unreasonable folks OR are in fact meritorious and are brought by folks trying to make a point such that the result is often far more important than the money.
3. DEL is historically is a state that is seen as very business friendly such that so many entities incorporate there and try to have DEL choice of law stipulations in contracts etc.
4. Corp compliance and consequences therefrom tends to be like waking up a bear toward the end of hibernation- very slow to wake up but very agitated when it finally happens
5. If banned folks were making a living before they were “banned” they may have a cause of action
6. GJM is spot on that the filing of this lawsuit likely means a resolution will take years v months.
7. It is a really poor look if an entity has not been in “good standing” for years on end. It absolutely gives the impression that if they could not even bother to file fairly mundane paperwork with the state what other balls, PARTICULARLY FINANCIAL, have they dropped. Therefore, in the civil context, this can open a literal Pandora’s box of discovery.
When corporate entities and their officers/officials therein, play fast and loose with money, at some point, it can stop being a civil matter and morph into something criminal
When the dollars involved hit 6 figures, involve entities that are not for profit, involve activities that cross state lines, the matters can often turn “federal.”
8. A take away for civil minded folks like us may be that if you serve on any board or commission etc, it behooves us greatly to be intimately familiar with the Directors/Officers Liability Insurance Plan (s).
Clusterfrack
09-09-2023, 01:50 PM
Sigh, I just want to shoot at things.
I do too. And I want a USPSA BoD that supports fair competition, instead of treating the org like their private gun club. I've interacted at length with a couple of BoD members. They always seemed like such nice gentlemen. Then I read transcripts of the shit they said in private, or to members who've stepped out of line. These are not good people. They are not just looking out for the org, and protecting it from evil trolls. They are looking out for themselves and are covering their asses because they know they have done shady things.
7. It is a really poor look if an entity has not been in “good standing” for years on end. It absolutely gives the impression that if they could not even bother to file fairly mundane paperwork with the state what other balls, PARTICULARLY FINANCIAL, have they dropped. Therefore, in the civil context, this can open a literal Pandora’s box of discovery.
When corporate entities and their officers/officials therein, play fast and loose with money, at some point, it can stop being a civil matter and morph into something criminal
When the dollars involved hit 6 figures, involve entities that are not for profit, involve activities that cross state lines, the matters can often turn “federal.”
Eek.
Sigh, I just want to shoot at things.
Me too.
But reading some of the emails in the Exhibits from these USPSA officials...wow. Just wow.
My decision not to renew my membership last week when it expired is looking better.
camel
09-09-2023, 02:30 PM
Me too.
But reading some of the emails in the Exhibits from these USPSA officials...wow. Just wow.
I haven’t read. But I can imagine.
vcdgrips paraphrased it accurately. Iamnal.
I do too. And I want a USPSA BoD that supports fair competition, instead of treating the org like their private gun club. I've interacted at length with a couple of BoD members. They always seemed like such nice gentlemen. Then I read transcripts of the shit they said in private, or to members who've stepped out of line. These are not good people. They are not just looking out for the org, and protecting it from evil trolls. They are looking out for themselves and are covering their asses because they know they have done shady things.
Another problem is that this club culture trickles down. Here one of our best shooter in the state was recently banned under very shady circumstances from our main range. Could not shoot state match that he probably would've won.
Clusterfrack
09-09-2023, 02:44 PM
Another problem is that this club culture trickles down. Here one of our best shooter in the state was recently banned under very shady circumstances from our main range. Could not shoot state match that he probably would've won.
Ugh. That's terrible. Do you think it's a generational thing? It seems like the younger USPSA shooters don't embrace the Good-Old-Boy culture?
Ugh. That's terrible. Do you think it's a generational thing?
Totally. He's a younger dude who is a nonconformist and a free spirit. Club management is older dudes. Long standing clash.
RevolverRob
09-09-2023, 03:04 PM
Simply put, this could have all been avoided.
There are for-profit companies that specialize in managing the operations of NPOs. I guarantee you the annual amount spent on a management company is less than USPSA has already paid to settle past lawsuits and future lawsuits.
As the saying goes, "If you think a professional is expensive, wait until you see how much an amateur costs."
Glenn E. Meyer
09-09-2023, 04:09 PM
Skimmed the report - amazing how folks can take a relatively simple event, and flush the whole organization.
This sucks.
Members will be the ones that suffers the most from this. They are already bleeding money. Idk what it will take to change the culture of the board but the org has clearly gotten way too big for a good ole boys club to manage.
I find it hard to believe they did this on purpose (not paying taxes) but honestly the bans were BS and it seems they haven't learned from it.
What a mess. Let my membership lapse last year when I started hearing about this dumb crap by the BOD. If there were PCSL matches around here I’d probably start shooting those instead.
I was having trouble finding the exhibits, so I made an index of them for my use. Attaching in case it helps someone else follow this through the system.
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Stephanie B
09-10-2023, 05:27 PM
While the named defendants may be the board members, the real defendants are all of us, the members of USPSA, as we will end up paying for this.
I have served on the boards of a number of non profit organizations, and not a single time have I had lawyers examine all the historical corporate filings to make sure everything was done to the letter of the law. A deep dive would likely turn up some defect in nearly every organization. Of all the faults of the USPSA board, some historical issue around by-laws or governance hardly seems worthy of condemning the current directors.
I was on the board of a small NPO. It wasn't hard to ensure that the biannual reports were made to the Secretary of State and that the by-laws were current. The treasurer stayed on top of the tax filings.
Zincwarrior
09-11-2023, 08:43 AM
I'm surprised as well. The capricious and punitive "guilt by association" bans hardly seem like actions of a nonprofit required to act in the best interest of members.
Why would you pay a lot of money to sue a a shooting organization that kicked you out? Good, bad, meh, suing over that? I would only see that because your income comes from matches in some way.
Why would you pay a lot of money to sue a a shooting organization that kicked you out? Good, bad, meh, suing over that? I would only see that because your income comes from matches in some way.
I think partially to be reinstated in said sport (which is part of the suit) AND to do it with a big “fuck you and kiss my ass.”
Glenn E. Meyer
09-11-2023, 09:17 AM
Note to self - never be an officer in a gun organization. I was asked to be VP of IDPA/USPSA club. Said NO. Later the club divided between the two factions and good riddance to them. Found plenty of other options every weekend.
Clusterfrack
09-11-2023, 09:27 AM
Why would you pay a lot of money to sue a a shooting organization that kicked you out? Good, bad, meh, suing over that? I would only see that because your income comes from matches in some way.
I'd consider suing to be reinstated if banned. USPSA means a lot to me, and I've never made a cent from it.
RevolverRob
09-11-2023, 11:18 AM
Why would you pay a lot of money to sue a a shooting organization that kicked you out? Good, bad, meh, suing over that? I would only see that because your income comes from matches in some way.
Well, if I am honest, it is more complicated than it may seem. USPSA has mismanaged practical shooting in the USA for ~10'ish years.
BUT it hasn't been enough, to cost them their IPSC Affiliation. IPSC only recognizes ONE affiliate org in the United States. That org gets to define who represents Team USA in IPSC. That affiliation basically determines who is the practical shooting organization in the single biggest shooting culture on the planet.
If say, folks had enough of USPSA's bullshit and started their own league, they might call it the Practical Competition Shooting League, to grow your org and make it the premier org in the USA, you'd really want that IPSC Affiliation. If you were to find the skeletons on the USPSA closet, you could wrestle that IPSC Affiliation away.
That PCSL's board, bylaws, and sponsors are in-process of being constructed should probably be a clue. If we were to discover that say...Infinity is a founding sponsor and Infinity Team Shooter Joe was a board member...
That's my working hypothesis of one of the main reasons for this lawsuit. The other is to fuck over USPSA BOD who have been assholes and gotten away for it for too long.
LittleLebowski
09-11-2023, 11:22 AM
Note to self - never be an officer in a gun organization. I was asked to be VP of IDPA/USPSA club. Said NO. Later the club divided between the two factions and good riddance to them. Found plenty of other options every weekend.
Responsible, who wants to be responsible? Whenever something bad happens, it's always, 'who's responsible for this?'
DDTSGM
09-11-2023, 11:49 AM
Why would you pay a lot of money to sue a a shooting organization that kicked you out? Good, bad, meh, suing over that? I would only see that because your income comes from matches in some way.
I think partially to be reinstated in said sport (which is part of the suit) AND to do it with a big “fuck you and kiss my ass.”
Well, if I am honest, it is more complicated than it may seem. USPSA has mismanaged practical shooting in the USA for ~10'ish years.
BUT it hasn't been enough, to cost them their IPSC Affiliation. IPSC only recognizes ONE affiliate org in the United States. That org gets to define who represents Team USA in IPSC. That affiliation basically determines who is the practical shooting organization in the single biggest shooting culture on the planet.
If say, folks had enough of USPSA's bullshit and started their own league, they might call it the Practical Competition Shooting League, to grow your org and make it the premier org in the USA, you'd really want that IPSC Affiliation. If you were to find the skeletons on the USPSA closet, you could wrestle that IPSC Affiliation away.
That PCSL's board, bylaws, and sponsors are in-process of being constructed should probably be a clue. If we were to discover that say...Infinity is a founding sponsor and Infinity Team Shooter Joe was a board member...
That's my working hypothesis of one of the main reasons for this lawsuit. The other is to fuck over USPSA BOD who have been assholes and gotten away for it for too long.
I dropped my membership in USPSA because I wanted to shoot not listen to squabbles over rules, it was like shooting with a bunch of lawyers who are looking for a reason to object (DQ) you.
But, I am following this out of morbid curiosity.
I don't know 'Poppa Joe' from Adam, but I think you guys are missing, to me, a key motivator: simply to make things right, and better for those who follow. Kind of the good citizen thing who get's involved because he can afford to and other folks impacted don't have the resources he has.
As I said, I don't know the guy and could be completely off base.
RevolverRob
09-11-2023, 02:45 PM
I dropped my membership in USPSA because I wanted to shoot not listen to squabbles over rules, it was like shooting with a bunch of lawyers who are looking for a reason to object (DQ) you.
But, I am following this out of morbid curiosity.
I don't know 'Poppa Joe' from Adam, but I think you guys are missing, to me, a key motivator: simply to make things right, and better for those who follow. Kind of the good citizen thing who get's involved because he can afford to and other folks impacted don't have the resources he has.
As I said, I don't know the guy and could be completely off base.
I would be willing to stand out on that limb with you Dan. I think Joe wants the sport to be better. I'd be willing to wager my paycheck that so do people like Stoeger, Derek (PSI), and the other "Howler Monkeys" that have been hound-dogging USPSA for a few years now. They want the organization to be upstanding and represent the shooters, not line the pockets of a few good old boys.
The challenge, I think, is that the damage is done to USPSA and it may not ultimately be salvageable as the premier practical shooting league. Getting that coveted IPSC Affiliation away from USPSA would be a huge step in allowing a new organization to take the reins and begin anew. If you felt that the organization was not able to be saved or simply had too many existing liabilities, this would be a logical path.
That maybe you sue them into oblivion, get the IPSC Affiliation, and then buy the remainder of the corpse after the dust settles (like Steel Challenge, etc) is a very practical and pragmatic way to both exact a bit of revenge AND leave the sport in a better way. Think of it as a bit of a hostile takeover with more honorable intentions.
At least, that's what I like to think is going on as I watch this unfold. I have no reason to believe that guys like Joe, Stoeger, Derek, etc. truly benefit from the 'drama' as the USPSA BOD likes to say they do. In fact, from talking with Derek, I think he finds this whole thing utterly exhausting. He has no interest in practical shooting anymore that I can see and would probably like this to all go away. But he keeps doing what is doing, because he thinks it's the correct thing to do. Plus, he probably gets some joy (as we all do) from having been right about it all along.
RevolverRob it sounds like you know Derek personally? Those are some helpful insights!
Spartan1980
09-11-2023, 08:03 PM
In fact, from talking with Derek, I think he finds this whole thing utterly exhausting. He has no interest in practical shooting anymore that I can see and would probably like this to all go away.
Completely understandable. Something that's fun and done for enjoyment gets unfun really fast when you have to get attorney's involved. Hell, I lost interest just from watching this multi-year shit show from afar.
ETA: And I really liked shooting the matches. Went to several Areas and one Nats.
Zincwarrior
09-13-2023, 08:21 AM
The interesting part, if you didn't watch the influencers, would you know about any of the nonsense? I have found in many volunteer, well any orgs, that if you don't pay attention to the snark between insiders, life is better.
I just want an org that maintains a good rules set, a good classification system, promotes the sport, and is not expensive to be a member of. I don't care about the sponsor shirt crowd bitching, GM infighting, who said what, etc.
Glenn E. Meyer
09-13-2023, 09:11 AM
Amen to that. Here's an example of the next USPSA division:
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Archer1440
09-13-2023, 10:06 AM
Another problem is that this club culture trickles down. Here one of our best shooter in the state was recently banned under very shady circumstances from our main range. Could not shoot state match that he probably would've won.
Did you get the full story of what went down? Because from what I understand the circumstances were, arguably, other than "shady".
That (lifetime!) ban was well earned if what I heard happened, actually happened... and there is a long, well documented history regarding the behavior of that (very talented) individual.
What I can't understand, is how another person, who is far more famous in certain circles (including this forum), was given a second chance after engaging in what would be considered assault under UT state law, at the same match.
Sig_Fiend
09-13-2023, 10:35 AM
The interesting part, if you didn't watch the influencers, would you know about any of the nonsense? I have found in many volunteer, well any orgs, that if you don't pay attention to the snark between insiders, life is better.
I just want an org that maintains a good rules set, a good classification system, promotes the sport, and is not expensive to be a member of. I don't care about the sponsor shirt crowd bitching, GM infighting, who said what, etc.
Yeah, but the corruption, nepotism, and unethical behavior will still be there if you ignore it... Call me crazy but, I find those things to be more of a concern than worrying about "mean tweets!"
Zincwarrior
09-13-2023, 10:50 AM
Yeah, but the corruption, nepotism, and unethical behavior will still be there if you ignore it... Call me crazy but, I find those things to be more of a concern than worrying about "mean tweets!"
The issue is that you think your concern will impact it.
Did you get the full story of what went down? Because from what I understand the circumstances were, arguably, other than "shady".
That (lifetime!) ban was well earned if what I heard happened, actually happened... and there is a long, well documented history regarding the behavior of that (very talented) individual.
What I can't understand, is how another person, who is far more famous in certain circles (including this forum), was given a second chance after engaging in what would be considered assault under UT state law, at the same match.
I have not decided how to approach this situation, including the part of getting the story. You and I should chat on Saturday.
TCFD273
09-13-2023, 12:15 PM
The issue is that you think your concern will impact it.
It absolutely will when people start leaving, like I did, and many others.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It absolutely will when people start leaving, like I did, and many others.
Dunno. The sport in general has really high turnover.
If you look at a sample match result of a local club, most of the participants are within the last 5 years.
As long as fresh blood keeps coming in and the key club members that donate blood and sweat to run matches stay, the sport continues on.
Really, the vast majority of competitors burn out, lose interest or just find other things to do.
TCFD273
09-13-2023, 02:37 PM
Dunno. The sport in general has really high turnover.
If you look at a sample match result of a local club, most of the participants are within the last 5 years.
As long as fresh blood keeps coming in and the key club members that donate blood and sweat to run matches stay, the sport continues on.
Really, the vast majority of competitors burn out, lose interest or just find other things to do.
I think the mismanagement of funds will handle a lot of that
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think the mismanagement of funds will handle a lot of that
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I tend to be a glass half full kind of guy. I’ll enjoy the sport for what it is.
Nothing the board or org does changes my enjoyment of the sport itself.
I love America despite mismanagement of resources and political shenanigans.
I’m not moving to New Zealand or Canada either.
I’ll keep on with USPSA until my enjoyment gets impacted.
If it folds, it folds. I’ve wasted more money on sillier things.
USPSA as a sport still has some of my favorite people locally and one of my favorite things to do on a weekend.
Jim Watson
09-13-2023, 04:24 PM
Me, too. I am a low to medium level shooter - my IDPA vest logo is 'Team Mediocre' - and I am not much interested in narrow gauge office politics as long as somebody is hanging targets.
Glenn E. Meyer
09-13-2023, 04:59 PM
Maybe USPSA can run a BUG match?
Bucky
09-13-2023, 05:02 PM
I'd consider suing to be reinstated if banned. USPSA means a lot to me, and I've never made a cent from it.
Exactly! I don’t think many get what a huge part of some overly / overtly passionate people the shooting sports may become. The first 20 some of my now 31 years in the sport were. Imagine giving up opportunities to get lucky because you had a match the next day. (If older me could go back and time and ask younger me WTF!?).
I still enjoy a few matches a month, but the obsession has long fizzled.
TCFD273
09-13-2023, 05:32 PM
I tend to be a glass half full kind of guy. I’ll enjoy the sport for what it is.
Nothing the board or org does changes my enjoyment of the sport itself.
I love America despite mismanagement of resources and political shenanigans.
I’m not moving to New Zealand or Canada either.
I’ll keep on with USPSA until my enjoyment gets impacted.
If it folds, it folds. I’ve wasted more money on sillier things.
USPSA as a sport still has some of my favorite people locally and one of my favorite things to do on a weekend.
Where I can legally choose to not give funds to inept organizations, I don’t.
While I still shoot handguns weekly, I went back to competing with rifles.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Leroy
09-13-2023, 06:31 PM
Well, if I am honest, it is more complicated than it may seem. USPSA has mismanaged practical shooting in the USA for ~10'ish years.
BUT it hasn't been enough, to cost them their IPSC Affiliation. IPSC only recognizes ONE affiliate org in the United States. That org gets to define who represents Team USA in IPSC. That affiliation basically determines who is the practical shooting organization in the single biggest shooting culture on the planet.
If say, folks had enough of USPSA's bullshit and started their own league, they might call it the Practical Competition Shooting League, to grow your org and make it the premier org in the USA, you'd really want that IPSC Affiliation. If you were to find the skeletons on the USPSA closet, you could wrestle that IPSC Affiliation away.
That PCSL's board, bylaws, and sponsors are in-process of being constructed should probably be a clue. If we were to discover that say...Infinity is a founding sponsor and Infinity Team Shooter Joe was a board member...
That's my working hypothesis of one of the main reasons for this lawsuit. The other is to fuck over USPSA BOD who have been assholes and gotten away for it for too long.
IPSC is just as corrupt if not more so than USPSA. USPSA has always been a little on the edges with IPSC for a lot of reasons. But USPSA is IPSC's deepest talent pool as well as it largest single nation source of members. I would be suprised if IPSC cared about our problems/ccoruption. We would be joining the party.
Where I can legally choose to not give funds to inept organizations, I don’t.
While I still shoot handguns weekly, I went back to competing with rifles.
I think that’s a reasonable perspective.
From mine, USPSA isn’t inept because they put out a product I find a good value.
If the corporation goes belly up, so be it.
I own a Boberg and a Coonan.
Both companies are out of business but I liked their guns so bought them.
Same thing here. As long as I like the product and find it worth the money, the org structure doesn’t disqualify the sport for me. Sure, I’d prefer a more put together org… but me leaving doesn’t promote that all.
Archer1440
09-13-2023, 06:46 PM
Dunno. The sport in general has really high turnover.
If you look at a sample match result of a local club, most of the participants are within the last 5 years.
As long as fresh blood keeps coming in and the key club members that donate blood and sweat to run matches stay, the sport continues on.
Really, the vast majority of competitors burn out, lose interest or just find other things to do.
ALL individual, sanctioned, world-governing-body level organized sports have approximately a 30%/year turnover rate. I can show receipts about this, but suffice it to say USPSA is not unique in this attribute.
ALL individual, sanctioned, world-governing-body level organized sports have approximately a 30%/year turnover rate. I can show receipts about this, but suffice it to say USPSA is not unique in this attribute.
Oh I agree with you.
I’m just saying that random casual competitors saying “I’m taking my ball and going home” aren’t going to move the needle unless USPSA fails to attract new members or the vets that actually run matches go away.
It could happen but I think most will be lost in the noise of attrition.
Archer1440
09-13-2023, 07:02 PM
Oh I agree with you.
I’m just saying that random casual competitors saying “I’m taking my ball and going home” aren’t going to move the needle unless USPSA fails to attract new members or the vets that actually run matches go away.
It could happen but I think most will be lost in the noise of attrition.
This is, of course, the heart of the matter- the ~5% who do the 95% of the work required at the local and regional level to put on matches.
Without that dedicated group, you literally have no USPSA. Same for a great many individual sports.
As annoying as the USPSA governance issues are, I would quit New Mexico way before quitting USPSA. While there will be discontent, bitching and moaning, I don't see those who regularly participate in USPSA matches leaving the organization.
This is, of course, the heart of the matter- the ~5% who do the 95% of the work required at the local and regional level to put on matches.
Without that dedicated group, you literally have no USPSA. Same for a great many individual sports.
Absolutely. And that 5% are the people I support, not the org.
If people don’t show up to the clubs run by those vets, they burn out and leave. THEN the organization is toast.
As long as those guys are showing up, I’m showing up and I don’t really give two shits about the BOD or corporate drama.
Saying fuck you to the org is saying fuck you to the dedicated vets. When THEY say they’ve had enough and are quitting, then I quit. But not before then.
Zincwarrior
09-14-2023, 07:30 AM
As annoying as the USPSA governance issues are, I would quit New Mexico way before quitting USPSA. While there will be discontent, bitching and moaning, I don't see those who regularly participate in USPSA matches leaving the organization.
Does any of that impact matches or organization at the state or local level? This is not a criticism, but a question.
Stoeger interviews Bill Godbold last night.
https://youtu.be/dntu7FrIbFc?si=j83B0OTj9NxO-8J6
My Cliff's after a quick watch:
- Bill thinks the USPSA "Delaware" thing is not a huge deal for the Board to rectify
- USPSA would have to re-register/get current in Delaware to respond to the lawsuit.
- Joe's suspension ends in October anyway, so reinstatement is probably not a primary goal of the lawsuit
- Bill does not expect a huge change in USPSA operations from the lawsuit, the bigger impact will be in discovery
- This will not resolve anytime soon, if it goes to trial it will be likely 2025
- If I heard it correctly, the board does not have the authority to amend bylaws or remove members without membership approval, according to Delaware law
Bill is an attorney and USPSA shooter who practices in Arkansas.
Does any of that impact matches or organization at the state or local level? This is not a criticism, but a question.
Not locally.
Stoeger interviews Bill Godbold last night.
https://youtu.be/dntu7FrIbFc?si=j83B0OTj9NxO-8J6
My Cliff's after a quick watch:
- Bill thinks the USPSA "Delaware" thing is not a huge deal for the Board to rectify
- USPSA would have to re-register/get current in Delaware to respond to the lawsuit.
- Joe's suspension ends in October anyway, so reinstatement is probably not a primary goal of the lawsuit
- Bill does not expect a huge change in USPSA operations from the lawsuit, the bigger impact will be in discovery
- This will not resolve anytime soon, if it goes to trial it will be likely 2025
- If I heard it correctly, the board does not have the authority to amend bylaws or remove members without membership approval, according to Delaware law
Bill is an attorney and USPSA shooter who practices in Arkansas.
Thank you for the Cliff’s notes!
Archer1440
09-14-2023, 08:28 AM
For someone with so much talent, and who has so much to offer in terms of knowledge, Ben Stoeger's continuing snark is very disappointing.
For someone with so much talent, and who has so much to offer in terms of knowledge, Ben Stoeger's continuing snark is very disappointing.
He seems to be missing a filter.
Spartan1980
09-14-2023, 09:52 AM
He seems to be missing a filter.
That is perhaps the best way to describe it as I've ever heard. Someone who comes off as a putz, who happens to be intelligent, educated, talented and capable.
"Missing a filter". That's brilliant!
Glenn E. Meyer
09-14-2023, 10:24 AM
Components of intelligence - one is emotional and interpersonally interactive processing. Separate from analytic smarts, or so it is thought. Can be bright and a putz.
Sig_Fiend
09-14-2023, 12:48 PM
For someone with so much talent, and who has so much to offer in terms of knowledge, Ben Stoeger's continuing snark is very disappointing.
According to him, from another video, he said he's repeatedly gone through the "proper channels" to try and rectify various situations in the past to no avail.
I'm paraphrasing off of memory. If that's in fact the case, what is one to do except to publicly shine light on the situation?
I find it very strange people have such a problem with attitude and personalities considering the circumstances. Call me crazy but, I feel like truth and facts matter more than people's feelings given the circumstances.
Is Ben wrong? Has he not done his due diligence or gone through proper channels in the past? Is he missing important facts that shine a different light on the situation? I get people disliking attitude, but I haven't heard anyone refute his claims.
It strikes me as sort of a head-in-the-sand mentality to be so worried about feelings, snark, etc as opposed to alleged corruption and unethical behavior. In better times, I understand the desire for decorum which is of course preferable.
But when you have leadership of an organization allegedly failing to even manage corporate documents that apparently have been expired for ~5yrs now... Sounds like something is rotten in Denmark and needs to be rooted out.
Clusterfrack
09-14-2023, 12:58 PM
For someone with so much talent, and who has so much to offer in terms of knowledge, Ben Stoeger's continuing snark is very disappointing.
I don't like Ben's 4Chan troll Instagram-influencer persona. I might have thought it was funny or interesting when I was 14, but I doubt it. I've never been a fan of that crap from anyone, including our former POTUS.
On the other hand, Ben's done more to push for a better USPSA than anyone out there, so I'll give him a pass.
DDTSGM
09-14-2023, 04:01 PM
Following this out of curiosity. Felt compelled to say that I took a class from Stoeger a couple years ago. I was a bit apprehensive having read the Doodie Project. I was surprised to find Stoeger a polite, approachable, resourceful instructor. I like the guy. Seemingly the same tenacity that fueled his rise in competition won't let him let go of the USPA bone in his mouth/craw.
fatdog
09-14-2023, 04:58 PM
Everybody tells me the same thing wrt Ben. In person in class, great teacher, great to be around. Then I look at his internet persona and cringe.
Reminds me of James Yeager in that respect. The same things said about him.
Archer1440
09-14-2023, 05:06 PM
According to him, from another video, he said he's repeatedly gone through the "proper channels" to try and rectify various situations in the past to no avail.
I'm paraphrasing off of memory. If that's in fact the case, what is one to do except to publicly shine light on the situation?
I find it very strange people have such a problem with attitude and personalities considering the circumstances. Call me crazy but, I feel like truth and facts matter more than people's feelings given the circumstances.
Is Ben wrong? Has he not done his due diligence or gone through proper channels in the past? Is he missing important facts that shine a different light on the situation? I get people disliking attitude, but I haven't heard anyone refute his claims.
It strikes me as sort of a head-in-the-sand mentality to be so worried about feelings, snark, etc as opposed to alleged corruption and unethical behavior. In better times, I understand the desire for decorum which is of course preferable.
But when you have leadership of an organization allegedly failing to even manage corporate documents that apparently have been expired for ~5yrs now... Sounds like something is rotten in Denmark and needs to be rooted out.
I feel that he could be far more effective with an intelligent, thoughtful persona, rather than what he is displaying. If he is truly trying to fix the problems, and I think on some level he is, then I think he would be more effective with a somewhat less low brow approach.
My wife and I were just watching his most recent video on the lawsuit. He does not present well.
backtrail540
09-14-2023, 06:03 PM
I've recently been listening to pstg after dark for a podcast and enjoying it, but of all the personalities on the show, his is most off-putting. Joel and Hwansik seem great though.
Despite that, he still seems to have contributed a lot to the community.
MEANWHILE, back on topic...
Can any of our legal beagles sketch out a notional timeline that these kinds of cases take?
Or at least what are the key points to watch in the coming weeks/months?
What I am wondering is if there is a road map or similar that those of use who are not familiar with how lawsuits go can follow or at least to pay attention to.
So, for example, the lawsuit was filed on 8 September, correct? And I understand that USPSA has 30 days to respond? Do they do that in writing? Or does the attorney for USPSA actually go appear in front of Judge Haupt in Stark County Ohio and testify as to USPSA's position on these allegations?
And then what? I hear terms like "discovery" and "deposition" (I think I know what that means from watching Suits :cool:) but not sure how that plays in as far as a schedule?
And speaking of schedule...does the judge set out a trial date, even if just a planned one, at this point?
Or what?
Appreciate any help here in orienting to the "what happens next" question...
OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
09-14-2023, 06:35 PM
I've recently been listening to pstg after dark for a podcast and enjoying it, but of all the personalities on the show, his is most off-putting. Joel and Hwansik seem great though.
Despite that, he still seems to have contributed a lot to the community.
Met Ben/Joel this March the 1st X when hosting them for 4 days & 48 diff. students + Hwansik & an AD SEAL that met Ben and backtrail540 your comments seem spot on.
Both classes filled way before '22 yr. end so have 'em coming back again next March & Ben's def. still in demand, as Skills & Drills is 85% full w/ Fundamentals a tick under 1/2 & both classes are still 5+ months out.
DDTSGM
09-21-2023, 08:36 PM
I just wat5ched a very interesting video with Ben S. interviewing a guy who is heading an group effort to sue USPSA in order to change the bylaws and make it a legit organization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5ICW1_50zg
I just wat5ched a very interesting video with Ben S. interviewing a guy who is heading an group effort to sue USPSA in order to change the bylaws and make it a legit organization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5ICW1_50zg
Watched the first half. Interesting legal approach. No idea if it has merit since it’s out of my lane. Be interesting to see if any of our forum Juris Doctors think the idea has merit. Something has to be done, for sure.
Archer1440
09-22-2023, 12:07 AM
My quick take on this apparent concept of filing multiple lawsuits to “save the organization and its financial stability”:
Seems a little bit like treating a case of internal bleeding… with leeches.
jetfire
09-22-2023, 08:18 AM
On the other hand, Ben's done more to push for a better USPSA than anyone out there, so I'll give him a pass.
Has Ben been pushing for a better USPSA or has he been pushing for the version of USPSA that he wants?
dannyd93140
09-22-2023, 09:25 AM
Has Ben been pushing for a better USPSA or has he been pushing for the version of USPSA that he wants?
I think he just pushing for a better USPSA, because most of his training classes are full and I think he just wanted to complete.
Clusterfrack
09-22-2023, 10:17 AM
Has Ben been pushing for a better USPSA or has he been pushing for the version of USPSA that he wants?
Good way to put it. There are different visions for USPSA in the future, and I happen to like what I've heard Ben and many others in that camp talk about. One of the things I hear Ben arguing for is a transparent governing process that listens to members, and treats everyone fairly. As well, my take is they want less industry influence in USPSA, and I can understand why you might not be onboard with that.
We can argue productively about what we want for the future, and maybe we can also agree that for several years the USPSA BoD has lacked vision. Instead of leading the BoD has been reactive in petty, desperate, and punitive ways. That's no bueno for anyone--except maybe BoD members.
The relationship between the USPSA board and the members, reminds me of a m home owners association gone bad.
There is usually some merit to each side's position, and what is best for the USPSA organization and its members, is likely somewhere between what Ben and the Board want.
Clusterfrack
09-22-2023, 10:53 AM
The relationship between the USPSA board and the members, reminds me of a m home owners association gone bad.
There is usually some merit to each side's position, and what is best for the USPSA organization and its members, is likely somewhere between what Ben and the Board want.
I think this is beyond a bad HoA--or at least any HoA I've seen. Maybe if the HoA was mismanaging and skimming funds, bullying owners, and evicting people for petty reasons?
I have lost trust in the current BoD members, NROI, and pretty much everyone at USPSA. I'd like a full reset of the org, then a process toward the future.
I think he just pushing for a better USPSA, because most of his training classes are full and I think he just wanted to complete.
My concern with Ben is that he has repeatedly stated that he’s not willing to work productively to make things better.
It’s easy to pot shot why things “fucking suck” but it’s a different thing to grind it out to make something better that’s viable.
How many times have we seen this at whatever job we have been at. Someone complains and bitches but never puts sweat equity into making it better.
Our club has a plaque: “Before you complain, have you volunteered yet?”
I think this is beyond a bad HoA--or at least any HoA I've seen. Maybe if the HoA was mismanaging and skimming funds, bullying owners, and evicting people for petty reasons?
I have lost trust in the current BoD members, NROI, and pretty much everyone at USPSA. I'd like a full reset of the org, then a process toward the future.
Depends on the HOA.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/florida/articles/2022-11-15/prosecutors-hoa-board-members-stole-millions-from-residents
Clusterfrack
09-22-2023, 11:00 AM
Depends on the HOA.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/florida/articles/2022-11-15/prosecutors-hoa-board-members-stole-millions-from-residents
Ok, that's bad. People suck.
dannyd93140
09-22-2023, 11:43 AM
My concern with Ben is that he has repeatedly stated that he’s not willing to work productively to make things better.
It’s easy to pot shot why things “fucking suck” but it’s a different thing to grind it out to make something better that’s viable.
How many times have we seen this at whatever job we have been at. Someone complains and bitches but never puts sweat equity into making it better.
Our club has a plaque: “Before you complain, have you volunteered yet?”
These problems are definitely not new to shooting sports organizations, check the history over the last 60 years and you will find out they have come and gone, more because of funds that anything else.
I think Ben gives a positive influence on things most ways, with it's all about the shooting.
But, we will have to see what happens in the future, just never heard of a person getting banned for life because of a opinion, that's new to me.
These problems are definitely not new to shooting sports organizations, check the history over the last 60 years and you will find out they have come and gone, more because of funds that anything else.
I think Ben gives a positive influence on things most ways, with it's all about the shooting.
But, we will have to see what happens in the future, just never heard of a person getting banned for life because of a opinion, that's new to me.
I have heard of people being banned from organizations for being unprofessional and calling people fucking assholes repeatedly, though.
There’s a difference between voicing an opinion and being willfully inflammatory.
Which is why Ben was banned from Pistol Forum back in the day.
dannyd93140
09-22-2023, 01:41 PM
I have heard of people being banned from organizations for being unprofessional and calling people fucking assholes repeatedly, though.
There’s a difference between voicing an opinion and being willfully inflammatory.
Which is why Ben was banned from Pistol Forum back in the day.
I have shot matches with a great many jerks over my lifetime, but never had one banned for using that language, but I probably never noticed ether being a retired sailor, that language is normal.
I have shot matches with a great many jerks over my lifetime, but never had one banned for using that language, but I probably never noticed ether being a retired sailor, that language is normal.
There’s a difference between swearing and swearing at someone and making public domain videos ranting about people using that language.
It’s not that people can’t curse.
It’s that if you publish videos to prove (in your mind) why specific people are fucking idiots…. and telling them that they’re a waste of human tissue… it’s going to have some repercussions.
I don’t think you could do that regarding Bill and Joyce Wilson and not expect to be banned from IDPA.
I’ve seen such things happen on the IDPA forums when people had attitude or thought their personal contributions to the sport protected them from acting like jackasses regarding the sport (it didn’t).
Clusterfrack
09-22-2023, 06:34 PM
I don’t think you could do that regarding Bill and Joyce Wilson and not expect to be banned from IDPA.
IDPA is a for-profit company, and can do anything they want with membership and rules. USPSA is a non-profit supporting a sport. I absolutely do not think criticizing the organization should be grounds for banning from competition.
Archer1440
09-23-2023, 08:15 AM
Critical views of an organization are indeed often protected speech when based upon verified evidence and facts.
Innuendo, rumors, personal attacks on individuals and unverified accusations are on thinner ice at best.
What Ben and his colleagues often offer is a mix of the two, tainting the overall approach. There’s nothing that could not be accomplished to improve the overall structure by taking the high road. He and his followers have made a choice not to, and they stain their credibility and reputation for some observers by their own methods.
I don't know what Ben's vision for USPSA is. I know that he wants a better governing body and a better process of governing perhaps, but that's not a vision.
I don't know what Ben's vision for USPSA is. I know that he wants a better governing body and a better process of governing perhaps, but that's not a vision.
It is far easier to say what is wrong with an organization than to describe how it should be run, and why that is better. Board bad, conflicts of interest bad, poor corporate housekeeping bad, flashlights and wayward holsters bad -- not sure what he thinks is right. He certainly can't point to his history as indicative of forming consensus and managing successfully.
Archer1440
09-23-2023, 05:25 PM
Is it reasonable to ask, who elected this "professional council"? And who decides who is "competent management"?
Am I out of line questioning this?
Is it reasonable to ask, who elected this "professional council"? And who decides who is "competent management"?
Am I out of line questioning this?
You’re not out of line.
Plus, who’s to say that competent people would want the job?
Maybe the people that “qualify” in their book… have real day jobs and don’t want to deal with that kind of BS voluntarily….
Board bad, conflicts of interest bad, poor corporate housekeeping bad, flashlights and wayward holsters bad -- not sure what he thinks is right.
9 oz brass grips on 46 oz Shadow is alright.
Is it reasonable to ask, who elected this "professional council"? And who decides who is "competent management"?
Am I out of line questioning this?
"We're going to sue you and make you change your bylaws, get new management and new lawyers"
I'm sorry I don't understand what they are suing USPSA for.
https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20230918.pdf
Archer1440
09-23-2023, 10:20 PM
"We're going to sue you and make you change your bylaws, get new management and new lawyers"
I'm sorry I don't understand what they are suing USPSA for.
The goals seem clear. The question is, who elected these people to unilaterally depose people who were either elected, or who were appointed by people who were elected, with a lawsuit that will cost the members a considerable sum? And how do they have any right to dictate to the membership what they define as "competent management"?
Is that either an unreasonable question, or position? I'm more than willing to be educated on this.
I get it, in the view of some, including a person I respect who is not tied to this, there are some very troublesome people who were elected to the board, the board needs fixing, some of the employees seem to suck at their jobs, whatever.
But, I note that the board was elected by the membership, and it would appear- forgive my deliberate choice of words here- that we have a cabal of unelected dissenters and non members, using the legal system, and costing the organization (and therefore the paying members) in an attempt to change the will of the voting membership. It sure smells like that from here.
Unless I have that wrong, and I hope someone can correct me, that doesn't sit all that well with me as a paying member of the organization. I would prefer that if there are people who are a problem, (and a few people have gone well out of their way to convince me that there are) that the voting membership solve that problem.
CleverNickname
09-23-2023, 11:45 PM
https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20230918.pdf
So A3 has questions/issues/something(?) about question 11(a) "Other revenue" on the annual form 990, A3 tries to get a vote to remove the president (which gets called out of order) and then A3 gets removed from the Finance committee and replaced by A8 on a 4-3 vote.
So A3 has questions/issues/something(?) about question 11(a) "Other revenue" on the annual form 990, A3 tries to get a vote to remove the president (which gets called out of order) and then A3 gets removed from the Finance committee and replaced by A8 on a 4-3 vote.
Possible, I could not really understand what that meant when I read it yesterday.
Why do they go in and out of executive session so much?
Is that normal?
Why do they go in and out of executive session so much?
Is that normal?
It is normal if you want to discuss things you don't want others to know. This board apparently has a lot of things they want to discuss privately.
jetfire
09-25-2023, 10:26 AM
I think he just pushing for a better USPSA, because most of his training classes are full and I think he just wanted to complete.
If Ben "just wanted to compete" he probably would have shot matches in the three years where he was largely inactive in USPSA but before he got banned. Or he'd go shoot PCSL or IDPA now that he's banned from USPSA. In the over a decade that I've known Ben, I have never known him to take an action that wasn't in what he thought his own best interests were, often without regard for the consequences to others.
As far as what Clusterfrack said about industry influence in USPSA, this is a pretty great example of Ben not knowing what the fuck he's talking about. "Industry influence" in USPSA is minimal at best. Most of the big companies are also very aware that if we lost every single USPSA member as a customer, the difference in our bottom line would be so small that it would be a rounding error.
Now, this isn't true for boutique companies that cater to the shooting sports and sort of rely on their relationship to those sports to survive. The smartest thing STI did from a business standpoint was move away from being a competition-only pistol, rebrand as Staccato, and sell "duty/carry" guns.
45dotACP
09-25-2023, 10:56 AM
If Ben "just wanted to compete" he probably would have shot matches in the three years where he was largely inactive in USPSA but before he got banned. Or he'd go shoot PCSL or IDPA now that he's banned from USPSA. In the over a decade that I've known Ben, I have never known him to take an action that wasn't in what he thought his own best interests were, often without regard for the consequences to others.
As far as what Clusterfrack said about industry influence in USPSA, this is a pretty great example of Ben not knowing what the fuck he's talking about. "Industry influence" in USPSA is minimal at best. Most of the big companies are also very aware that if we lost every single USPSA member as a customer, the difference in our bottom line would be so small that it would be a rounding error.
Now, this isn't true for boutique companies that cater to the shooting sports and sort of rely on their relationship to those sports to survive. The smartest thing STI did from a business standpoint was move away from being a competition-only pistol, rebrand as Staccato, and sell "duty/carry" guns.
I would think "industry influence" more or less just boils down to "Dudes wanna sandbag so they can get shit from the prize table"
If there were no prize table, lots of dudes would make the jump from B class to GM
Also...huge fucking agreement about STI's change in business model. Once they made the switch from shooting competitions to Instagram influencers, I'd bet they posted record profits.
dannyd93140
09-25-2023, 01:13 PM
If Ben "just wanted to compete" he probably would have shot matches in the three years where he was largely inactive in USPSA but before he got banned. Or he'd go shoot PCSL or IDPA now that he's banned from USPSA. In the over a decade that I've known Ben, I have never known him to take an action that wasn't in what he thought his own best interests were, often without regard for the consequences to others.
As far as what Clusterfrack said about industry influence in USPSA, this is a pretty great example of Ben not knowing what the fuck he's talking about. "Industry influence" in USPSA is minimal at best. Most of the big companies are also very aware that if we lost every single USPSA member as a customer, the difference in our bottom line would be so small that it would be a rounding error.
Now, this isn't true for boutique companies that cater to the shooting sports and sort of rely on their relationship to those sports to survive. The smartest thing STI did from a business standpoint was move away from being a competition-only pistol, rebrand as Staccato, and sell "duty/carry" guns.
Don't know Ben personally, but that description unfortunately fits a lot of competitors in the shooting sports. I do hope the organization the best in their future endeavors, but they may need to change things a bit.
It is normal if you want to discuss things you don't want others to know. This board apparently has a lot of things they want to discuss privately.
The latest PTSG podcast with a3 and a7 area director's confirmed what everyone assumed reading the minutes. They didn't like what a3 did so they went in to executive session to yell at him. They then promptly removed him from his role on the financial committee.
It sucks the culture of the board is so bad. What sucks even more is that it's going to take people who volunteer their time (AD) to fix it. From the outside it seems the type of toxic culture you need a new CEO to change and that ain't happening because of the structure.
Doublestack45
09-25-2023, 07:43 PM
Within the past year, I have watched Xray.alpha’s Matt Pranka partner with Stoeger, teaching courses and doing podcasts that focus specifically on moving the bar higher in performance shooting.
Both these guys were at the top of their professions, and now are trying to pass along their knowledge with brutally honest opinions, to whoever wants to listen.
Yes, I get that their style offends many here, calling out some of the industries old guard, but I never got the sense that they are doing what they do for reasons other than pushing the boat way out, making everyone rethink what’s possible…elevating everyone.
People on this forum are sometimes berated when they question a forum subject matter expert, yet I can’t think of two names more fitting of being SME’s than Pranka and Stoeger. Stoeger and Pranka often chuckle hearing comments about themselves such as “toxic and decisive”. They don’t seem phased in the least, confident that they are doing what needs to be done.
I throughly enjoy their zero BS approach, methods, and teaching style, and feel fortunate that they are willing to to share their knowledge freely, even if that means they stand alone from the crowd.
fatdog
09-25-2023, 09:11 PM
One way I can read those minutes is that there is an air of desperation and panic, directly caused by the lawsuit and impending discovery. I still wonder about the organization's D&O policy, and if that insurer is readily stepping up to the bat in this legal battle, especially for the current and former directors named. Or if as everything else that has been sloppily done, there is none, or it too expired.
All this drama over what goes on your IRS 990 is not something an organization with nothing to hide should exhibit.
This has clearly not been an organization that has followed good corporate governance practices, that is obvious from the lapse of their corporate standing in DE. It would seem they are not at all well prepared for this sort of stakeholder/member lawsuit.
What does Ben's and Pranka's teaching have to do with this discussion? I paid for nearly a week of total class time with Ben. I think he may have the highest shooting intellect that I've seen. That's not even tangential to the discussion of USPSA's illnesses.
What does Ben's and Pranka's teaching have to do with this discussion? I paid for nearly a week of total class time with Ben. I think he may have the highest shooting intellect that I've seen. That's not even tangential to the discussion of USPSA's illnesses.
In other words, being a SME at technical shooting doesn't also make you a SME at organizational management. I am surprised Ben doesn't understand that.
RevolverRob
09-26-2023, 08:45 AM
Did I miss a memo? Is Ben Stoeger going to be the new defacto USPSA Dictator? The new group suing USPSA has an advisory board and conspicuously absent from it is Ben Stoeger.
Ben has always created noise wherever he goes. He's not the only one to stir shit up and make a name for himself, love you jetfire - but c'mon man.
The problem people have with Ben is twofold. 1) His delivery. 2) That he is usually right. In this instance Ben has been right all along. Whatever "Ben's Vision" is for USPSA can be brought up at open business meetings when he is reinstated in the future. Or he can run for a board position and be elected.
In the mean time I think you guys are getting distracted from the broader point.
Or he can run for a board position and be elected.
I wonder what prevented him from doing so when he was a member.
2) That he is usually right. In this instance Ben has been right all along. Whatever "Ben's Vision" is for USPSA can be brought up at open business meetings when he is reinstated in the future. Or he can run for a board position and be elected.
I think that's not the issue.
I could say "The US government is run by a bunch of incompetent people and they should just fire all of them and start over!!!"
And I'd be right...
But without a plan for how to create something better AND the man/womanpower to make that happen... it's less than worthless.
That's the situation I see.
Nobody disputes that the shenanigans are crappy. But what is the replacement going to look like without willing people to put in the work.
Like I said, someone can complain at how shitty the local club is run... but without someone willing to give their own blood, sweat and tears, you gots what you gots.
And Stoeger repeatedly has said that he's not willing to put in the effort to make it better. So being "right" in this case isn't helpful or useful.
And you could make the case that all the disruption could have negative effects at functional improvement. Without the lawsuits, would A3 director have been able to help more? Maybe. But now with circling the wagons, who knows what it's going to be in the future.
I get the sense that Ben would be gloating and happy if USPSA failed and crumbled. He's not invested it seems, into making it better.
I hope the lawsuit is fully funded and goes forward. It should.
DME sold nearly $20K worth of manufacturer-supplied goods for personal profit, and the Board circled the wagons. The Board has documented their own stockpiles of manufacturer-donated ammo and freebies, but most continue to refuse to publish their conflicts of interest when demanded, as required. The Board upended the President position in order to put in a "highly qualified" Managing Director... whose recent business experience appeared to be hosting MLM sale parties at an Area Director's house. The budgets for the org continue to run deficits with no changes in self-interested behavior. The Board failed to do the most basic of corporate operations, annual reports, allowing the org's rights to its name and legal standing lapse for years (and they blame the registered agent, despite this being a routine part of running a business). The Board denied the chair of the financial committee access to historical financials, and when he made an off-agenda motion (which was denied for being off-agenda), he was removed from the committee (by off-agenda motion). Not to mention the Cameo fiasco that, regardless of your position on stupid laws, was absolutely reckless with respect to protecting 501(c)(3) status.
The problems are not just the personal spats and character insults (hot dogs, lick-a-thons, domestic abuse, co-opting non-USPSA media outlets that advertise with the organization to publish provably false statements, etc.). The real problems are corporate governance issues that require corporate governance solutions.
There doesn't need to be grandiose change. Competent turnaround management/CROs right bigger ships all the time. There should be a CRO or TM put in place to fix the deficit spending issues, create SOPs that ensure the ByLaws are followed, and ensure transparent non-profit management.
I’m hoping that when the next election cycles come around, someone does targeted voter information and campaigning to the areas. Like emailing and post carding active members in the voting region.
Checked the latest on the court docket this morning, it appears that Judge Farmer directed it to mediation on 25 January, 2024.
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