Retooling Draw Index

[rdtompki]

After several years of competing with an iron-sight 1911 and carrying an HK P2000, I started carrying a Staccato C2 appendix and never good about drive fire didn't pay a lot of attention to draw index with that handgun; didn't plan to outdraw anyone from appendix in any event. Put an RDS on one of our Kimber Pro Carry and started practicing and competing (Steel Challenge) with that combination. Didn't have any problem with draw index; with the 1911 platform I could drive the irons/dot to the draw plate almost regardless of stance.

Started competing with the C2 and my draw index is consistently off to the left regardless of stance, etc. Lying in bed last night I was struck with the obvious: it's the larger grip. The obvious solution is dry fire, dry fire, ..., but I'd rather not take 30K draw cycles to update my "software". I'm looking for any suggestions. I'm sure 1/2 speed draws concentrating on form would be beneficial. I'm wondering about one-hand draws since my strong hand (right) is the biggest contributor to draw accuracy.

Love the 2011-size grip and having just bought a "P" for competition I'm not going back.

[JCN]

After several years of competing with an iron-sight 1911 and carrying an HK P2000, I started carrying a Staccato C2 appendix and never good about drive fire didn't pay a lot of attention to draw index with that handgun; didn't plan to outdraw anyone from appendix in any event. Put an RDS on one of our Kimber Pro Carry and started practicing and competing (Steel Challenge) with that combination. Didn't have any problem with draw index; with the 1911 platform I could drive the irons/dot to the draw plate almost regardless of stance.

Started competing with the C2 and my draw index is consistently off to the left regardless of stance, etc. Lying in bed last night I was struck with the obvious: it's the larger grip. The obvious solution is dry fire, dry fire, ..., but I'd rather not take 30K draw cycles to update my "software". I'm looking for any suggestions. I'm sure 1/2 speed draws concentrating on form would be beneficial. I'm wondering about one-hand draws since my strong hand (right) is the biggest contributor to draw accuracy.

Love the 2011-size grip and having just bought a "P" for competition I'm not going back.

As someone who uses a lot of different firearms of different shapes and sizes with pretty good versatility, I have the following advice for the 2011 coming from a 1911.

Spend some dedicated time optimizing your strong hand grip position first and then modify or customize your trigger length to fit your finger from that grip position.

I made you a video. Mornings are cat time so ignore the needy kitty.


https://youtu.be/mcFsg1a0xI0?si=OYkIIdqI92cVs-5r

[Shawn Dodson]

Shift your feet so your draw index shifts slightly to the right to offset for the change in your natural point of aim? If it works, then it's the only thing you have to change.

[JCN]

Shift your feet so your draw index shifts slightly to the right to offset for the change in your natural point of aim? If it works, then it's the only thing you have to change.

I fear that might be a band aid patch compensation that may only hold up on a square range and not with a more robust requirement for movement, cover and awkward positioning where foot position and upper body mechanics are divorced?

It also might also be somewhat dependent on a certain distance target and may neglect the root cause solution.

[LukeNCMX]

JCN did a good job in his video on strong hand positioning. The first time I saw information on this was in Brian Enos' classic Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals (https://a.co/d/f6oIGMC) which is a great resource.

Something else I picked up on this topic from Tactical Performance Center (https://a.co/d/00dOifj) was their content on something they call "sight alignment by feel" which is another detailed interesting take on index.

Lastly if you are a member of PSTG.us you can look at Hwansik Kim's content on index and grip which is also really good.

[YVK]

I don't believe in 1/2 speed draws but I do believe in one handed draws. Sight alignment by feel is a little backwards, no pun intended, but it works. It is only useful after you've established what a correct grip is for ya, and that only comes after you sorta figured your index. Others' experiences may or may not be generalizable. For example when I rotate my strong/right hand counterclockwise on the grip, my shots go right and not left unlike on the video above. I'm in a process of trying limops so I am switching from Shadows to a 2011. I am fully committed to 30k, or however many needed draws, to get the index,

[JCN]

example when I rotate my strong/right hand counterclockwise on the grip, my shots go right and not left unlike on the video above.

If you’re indexing on target but shooting right you might be pulling on the left side of the trigger making the muzzle go right. That’s why trigger length is an important variable as well.

One thing I did to my 2011s to make the index transition from CZ easy was custom fab a mainspring housing to match angle.

109381

[Shawn Dodson]

I fear that might be a band aid patch compensation that may only hold up on a square range and not with a more robust requirement for movement, cover and awkward positioning where foot position and upper body mechanics are divorced?

It also might also be somewhat dependent on a certain distance target and may neglect the root cause solution.

I agree.

I missed the part where the OP said "regardless of stance".

I have the same problem with a G48. No issues with a G19, G26 or G43 - just the G48.

[rdtompki]

I just got my hands on a Staccato P for competition a few days ago, saving the C2 just for carry. Don't have the plate yet so shot a practice session and match with the irons. I had to experiment with holster position, moving to around 2 o'clock, but I'm now experiencing 2011 love. The natural point of aim with that grip is such that I can hardly fail to come up on target and I don't have to play games making room for my support hand.

Despite my years of iron sight 1911 experience the irons on the P didn't work well with my fixed focus post cataract curgery vision: too little white space go get a good vertical read on alignment. Nothing wrong with the pistol and I'll have the plate tomorrow, but I learned something.

[Backspin]

To the OP, I wonder if your support hand grip technique might be driving the gun left with the C2? One way to tell is if increasing or decreasing grip pressure with left hand affects the way the gun points. If that’s the case then adjusting hand position, direction of grip pressure, and/or arm position might help your index be more robust/consistent.

The P’s grip shape might be more forgiving with your hand size and technique which is why you’re seeing instant improvement vs the C2.

[rdtompki]

To the OP, I wonder if your support hand grip technique might be driving the gun left with the C2? One way to tell is if increasing or decreasing grip pressure with left hand affects the way the gun points. If that’s the case then adjusting hand position, direction of grip pressure, and/or arm position might help your index be more robust/consistent.

The P’s grip shape might be more forgiving with your hand size and technique which is why you’re seeing instant improvement vs the C2.

Very possible. I'll have both guns at the range tomorrow. It may be that the strict 3 o'clock holster position was affecting the quality of my C2 strong hand grip although the slighter longer P grip is a better fit. I'll report back.

[rdtompki]

When all was said and done the P holster is at the same 3 o'clock that worked for my 1911 for 10 years; engineers think way too much and my tendency to "try this, try that" did more harm than good.
After this change the only residual issue was a tendency toward a consistent index left of target. This disappeared completely when I stopped being so deliberate in getting to the gun (from surrender), reverting to the more natural motion/speed that I'd been using for several years. Appreciate all the input.

[JCS]

It won’t take 30k draws or anywhere close to that. I’m going through a very similar thing switching from a Staccato to CZ. My index was to the right with the CZ and it definitely is related to the difference in grip size. A few weeks of dry fire and it’s mostly gone.

One thing I have done is found the correct hand position needed for a perfect index and before I draw I’ll get my hand on the gun and hold it there for a second “feeling” what the perfect hand position feels like and then on the draw I’ll access that memory.

I have found any slight change in holster position or can’t will also throw my draw off temporarily.

[Clusterfrack]

…switching from a Staccato to CZ…

This makes me happy.

And good post. The only thing I have to add is that it is a good idea to separate your index from your draw. From hands just touching, a good index will produce automatic sight / dot alignment on presentation. I do that as a warmup before every session.

So I’d start with basic index first, and once that’s solid, then add the draw.

[YVK]

It won’t take 30k draws or anywhere close to that. I’m going through a very similar thing switching from a Staccato to CZ. My index was to the right with the CZ and it definitely is related to the difference in grip size. A few weeks of dry fire and it’s mostly gone.



I'm going the other way, Shadow2 to 2011, and I'm disgusted with how long it's taking me. Freestyle is more or less ok, strong hand about same, weak hand crap, weak hand off NPE total crap. I'm coming to a conclusion that 2011 is an overhyped non-ergonomic brick. I find Glocks to be more ergonomic.

[JCN]

I'm going the other way, Shadow2 to 2011, and I'm disgusted with how long it's taking me. Freestyle is more or less ok, strong hand about same, weak hand crap, weak hand off NPE total crap. I'm coming to a conclusion that 2011 is an overhyped non-ergonomic brick. I find Glocks to be more ergonomic.

I did a DWX in order to avoid having to retrain grip angle.

After a little testing, I like the low bore axis of the Shadow 2 better and went back to it.

I just don’t shoot enough these days to justify an overhaul.

[Gio]

It won’t take 30k draws or anywhere close to that.

I agree with this. I'm also switching from a Glock to a Tanfo this off season and it only took about a week of dry firing 15-20 minutes a night to have my index draw on point.