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Kyle Reese
10-30-2012, 01:06 PM
Anyone else here have their C&R FFL, or love C&R firearms in general?


I renewed my C&R last month, and have been tempted many times so far. :)

In a nutshell, I have the following C&R guns;

DDR Makarov

Yugo M59/66

Yugo M48

Yugo M24/47

Yugo M24/52C

Soviet SKS (1950)

M 91/30

M 38

M 44

M 91/59

Swiss K31

Various K98's

MEH
10-30-2012, 02:09 PM
Don't have C&R but do like older guns. Have a couple of nice Swedish Mausers bought back when they were "plentiful" here. They are nice.

jumpthestack
10-30-2012, 03:40 PM
I'm not that into C&R guns, but I got my C&R FFL so I could get the dealer discount at MidwayUSA, Brownells, and Grafs. Look into that if you haven't already, it's pretty easy to set up.

I do have a Garand, which I couldn't pass up because that's an American classic suitable for telling people to get off my lawn.

Joe in PNG
10-30-2012, 03:43 PM
Another lover of old guns here. I've got a Colt 1903 (1906 vintage), a S&W top break "Lemon Squeezer" .38 , and a Mossberg M44 US .22 training rifle.
One of these days I hope to collect the whole set of Browning and Colt Pre WW2 automatic pistols.

shootist26
10-30-2012, 07:46 PM
I love older guns, but there are only a couple that I really really want. I already have one of them (SMLE No 1 MkIII), and plan to get an authentic USGI M1 carbine sometime in the future.

In the present, most of my time and money is going towards USPSA, IDPA, pistol training, etc.

Odin Bravo One
10-30-2012, 07:51 PM
I'd get a C&R, if only the guns I wanted were not also NFA regulated. C&R versions of the same gun tend to go anywhere from $2k-10k higher than a regular non-C&R NFA gun. What I need to do is get off my tail and get a regular FFL and SOT so I can start buying dealer samples.

KevH
10-31-2012, 12:13 AM
I don't have a C&R, but I do love 1903's, 1903A3's and Garands...

Tamara
10-31-2012, 05:51 AM
Anyone else here ... love C&R firearms in general?

Sure. Whadda ya need? :D

In all seriousness, I have enough C&R-eligible firearms (and quite a few that are old enough that they aren't even de jure 'firearms' as far as the federal government is concerned) that I feel a little dumb not having a Type 03 sometimes. It's one of those things I keep meaning to do and never getting around to.

TGS
10-31-2012, 11:08 AM
Fred,

I just bought a walnut K31 to go with my beech K31. I also just bought a bubba'd Swiss 1911 that I'm going to turn into a scout rifle. I'm going to cut and crown the barrel at 18", put an ebony wood fore-end tip on the stock, and then have a gunsmith replace the rear sight with a scope base before rebluing it.

It should be sweet. Hopefully I can pick both of them up from the dealer sometime soon when power comes back on.

Coyotesfan97
10-31-2012, 11:18 AM
No C&R either but it's something I want to get. I have a 1934 Tula Mosin with the hex receiver and a Lee Enfield Jungle Carbine. I also have two Garands.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kyle Reese
10-31-2012, 11:24 AM
Fred,

I just bought a walnut K31 to go with my beech K31. I also just bought a bubba'd Swiss 1911 that I'm going to turn into a scout rifle. I'm going to cut and crown the barrel at 18", put an ebony wood fore-end tip on the stock, and then have a gunsmith replace the rear sight with a scope base before rebluing it.

It should be sweet. Hopefully I can pick both of them up from the dealer sometime soon when power comes back on.

Nice. What year are your K31's? I have a '42 and a '50. Need to pick up some GP 11 ammo also.

TGS
10-31-2012, 04:12 PM
Nice. What year are your K31's? I have a '42 and a '50. Need to pick up some GP 11 ammo also.

Check out Samco for GP11, they have some. I'm trying to wait on the Sportsmansguide to restock the 480 round battle packs so I can save on shipping....last I saw they were projecting Dec 10th to be in stock, but they've moved back that date twice already so I'm losing hope.

The beech is a 1948. I can't remember what year the walnut one is, I just remember it's post hardening....the G11 is a 1918, IIRC. The beech K31 was issued to Josef Weber with the 30th Anti-Tank Company, he lived on the southern edge of Lake Constance. Since I don't have the walnut K31 in hand yet, I don't remember any of the troop info except it was issued to Emil Rohner.

I've got a Turner's M1907 sling on the beech K31 right now, along with a St Marie offset clamp-on scope mount (wonderful btw) mounting a Vortex Diamondback 3-9x40mm, along with a St Marie muzzle brake. I might transfer all that to the walnut K31, as the offset scope allows use of irons sights yet the beech's front sight is off kilter. So, I'm thinking about putting a St Marie's P/S diopter on the beech. With all this stuff on the K31, it weighs a good 11lbs+.

Which brings me to why I chose the 1911 for the scout project. The 11 has a true Schmidt-Rubin action with mid mounted bolt lugs. The action is a pretty slim profile like most bolt actions, but it's very long. It also has a slimmer barrel than the K31, IIRC. When the Swiss wanted to go all carbine instead of rifles and carbines, they demanded the new carbine exceed the K11's accuracy (23" bbl) and meet the accuracy of the G11 with its 30" barrel, all while having the same OAL as the K11. Supposedly the 1911 shoots better with the 30" bbl because it dampens vibrations much better than the 23" bbl.

The way Col Furrer of Waffenfabrik Bern addressed this was to make the action on the K31 beefy and stiff as all hell. I can't do it on my phone right now, but search google for posts by "Guisan" showing the difference between a 1911 and K31 barrel shank. The K31 is HUGE. They also moved the bolt lugs to the front, leading to.a much stronger lockup capable of shooting anything sharing a 308 base diameter (the K31 came in 308, 30-06 and 300WM from der Schweiz, btw). The result was a carbine that is the same length of a K11 but has a 25" barrel and is as accurate as the G11. Cutting the barrel on a K31 would also require new bedding, as its bedding is not stabilized laterally like the 1911 which is why the K31 requires up pressure from the fore-end of the stock. Free-floating a K31 barrel ends disastrously for accuracy unless you bed it, and pillars + epoxy bedding means more weight, and moving farther away from the Scout concept.

So, the K31 is heavy as hell so doesn't really fit the scout concept unless you're looking to chamber a 358 Win or 376 Steyr rifle. Given that the 1911 is still respectably accurate, it will do fine for 200 yards like a Scout is purposed. I have a Langois Rhodesian sling on order for it, and am going to put a Burris 2.75x20 on it with Warne QR rings. This would allow the use of iron sights...I'm thinking a Skinner receiver sight would be good.

Wow, that was a lot to write on a Blackberry. Hopefully I wasn't rambling, but it's fun to talk shop and I'm sick and tired of repainting my bedroom, cleaning, listening to the radio, and reading books.

Oh, and check out the Steyr 95 carbines. Crude machines made by apes compared to the Swiss version, but they're going for $100 or so at JGsales.com and might be a good investment.

Kyle Reese
10-31-2012, 04:18 PM
Thanks for the heads up. I have a Steyr M95, bought it around 2003 from AIM when they sold em dirt cheap and included 1938 Austrian manufactured ammo on the 5 round clips. I've shot my carbine a few times, cleaned it, and haven't really messed wit hit since.

I'm going to place an order for some of that GP 11 from Samco. How are they in terms of shipping, etc?

TGS
10-31-2012, 04:44 PM
Thanks for the heads up. I have a Steyr M95, bought it around 2003 from AIM when they sold em dirt cheap and included 1938 Austrian manufactured ammo on the 5 round clips. I've shot my carbine a few times, cleaned it, and haven't really messed wit hit since.

I'm going to place an order for some of that GP 11 from Samco. How are they in terms of shipping, etc?

I haven't ordered from Samco lately so I couldn't say.

Is the Steyr straight up unenjoyable? The Swiss ditched them in 1905, apparently with rejoice. Even with the Swiss manufactured versions, they weren't very accurate. Supposedly the bolt is very complicated to assemble, and a popular tale is of Swiss militiamen showing up to muster with the rifle in one hand and the disassembled bolt in the other.

Kyle Reese
10-31-2012, 04:50 PM
I haven't ordered from Samco lately so I couldn't say.

Is the Steyr straight up unenjoyable? The Swiss ditched them in 1905, apparently with rejoice. Even with the Swiss manufactured versions, they weren't very accurate. Supposedly the bolt is very complicated to assemble, and a popular tale is of Swiss militiamen showing up to muster with the rifle in one hand and the disassembled bolt in the other.

The K31 is an absolute joy to shoot compared to the M95. It is a superior rifle in every way. A Soviet M44 is a better rifle than an M95.

TGS
10-31-2012, 05:09 PM
The K31 is an absolute joy to shoot compared to the M95. It is a superior rifle in every way. A Soviet M44 is a better rifle than an M95.

WOW.....that is pretty damning.

I'd like to get a Lee-Navy 6mm rifle. And a Krag. And a Springfield 03 with an aperature sight. A Swedish Mauser 38 would be nice as well, finally an Enfield....either a SMLE or No 4. Not too much else interests me much. As you might have guessed, nothing interests me as much as the Swiss guns. It would be fun to take a Mosin or Mauser for a project gun, but otherwise they don't get me going.

Have you considered any oddballs, like the French MAS36?

Kyle Reese
10-31-2012, 11:21 PM
WOW.....that is pretty damning.

I'd like to get a Lee-Navy 6mm rifle. And a Krag. And a Springfield 03 with an aperature sight. A Swedish Mauser 38 would be nice as well, finally an Enfield....either a SMLE or No 4. Not too much else interests me much. As you might have guessed, nothing interests me as much as the Swiss guns. It would be fun to take a Mosin or Mauser for a project gun, but otherwise they don't get me going.

Have you considered any oddballs, like the French MAS36?

I'd like a MAS 49/45. Very handy, reliable and under appreciated rifle outside of France and it's former colonial possessions. AIM also has surplus 7,5 MAS ammunition at the moment.

I've got a 1901 M96 Swede I haven't shot in over a decade, as well as a Finnish M39 with a pristine post war barrel on it.

Tamara
11-01-2012, 07:22 AM
I'd like a MAS 49/45. Very handy, reliable and under appreciated rifle outside of France and it's former colonial possessions. AIM also has surplus 7,5 MAS ammunition at the moment.

I need to glom onto some of that, then.

I think the MAS 49 is massively underrated. The biggest problem with them is the ammo situation; the firing pin is a massive affair designed to deliver mighty licks to hard milspec primers. As a result, using soft commercial primers (such as found on FNM and Prvi Partizan) can induce slamfires. The solution is to lighten and slightly blunt the firing pin, which is one of those things I'm always going to eventually get around to doing...

(The MAS 36 is an interesting bolt gun. As the last turnbolt rifle designed and issued by a major power, it is an amazingly simple design. Not quite the Grease Gun of military bolt actions, but close. It's short and handy and has receiver-mounted aperture sights. I think its looks keep it from being more popular than it is.)

JAD
11-01-2012, 07:34 AM
I think the k31 makes a dandy scout. 1127

It's in an ultralight laminated stock that I don't think richard's makes anymore. I remember it being about six and a half with a langlois Ching sling and the scope but an empty box.

I'll weigh it for record and shoot some groups soonish.

Tamara
11-01-2012, 07:41 AM
I think the k31 makes a dandy scout.

I'm not sure whether that picture makes me happy or sad.

Part of me thinks "Yeah, that'd make an awesome Scout," and part of me wants to run up to the attic and pet my walnut K31 and say "Don't worry, I won't let the bad man hurt you."

JAD
11-01-2012, 09:18 AM
I have two -- the sister has been kept original.

TGS
11-01-2012, 10:52 AM
I'm not sure whether that picture makes me happy or sad.

Part of me thinks "Yeah, that'd make an awesome Scout," and part of me wants to run up to the attic and pet my walnut K31 and say "Don't worry, I won't let the bad man hurt you."

Hahaha. Exactly the reason I chose to buy a bubba'd rifle to start with as a project gun.

Doc,

That's awesome! Nicely done. Is that a Mauser scout mount I see? Require any modification to install, or was it solid as is purchased?

The Richards stock looks great, man. A correctly sporterized milsurp such as yours is the way to do it. I die on the inside everytime I see a half-assed bubba job.

JAD
11-02-2012, 03:32 PM
[QUOTE=TGS;99184That's awesome! Nicely done. Is that a Mauser scout mount I see? Require any modification to install, or was it solid as is purchased?

The Richards stock looks great, man. A correctly sporterized milsurp such as yours is the way to do it. I die on the inside everytime I see a half-assed bubba job.[/QUOTE]
-- It's an Ashley, and just to be on the safe side we bedded it. The Richards stock is interesting. It won't take any sort of finish, so it may get rattlecanned at some point. The intended application is a deer rifle, on the off chance that I get interested in that someday, and with the known flaw in the concept being sunlight on your six at dawn or dusk.

TGS
11-09-2012, 04:22 PM
Anything new on your K31 Scout, Doc?

So my FFL finally got his power back, and I went over to pick up my rifles today. Quick crap picture of my K31s and the Schmidt-Rubin:

1138

The walnut K31 is awesome in person. It's got some really nice grain that you can barely start to see in the picture, and the nice reddish tinge to the wood from the old linseed oil is fabulous. It has a lot of dings but no water damage. Now that I have the rifle, I know it was issued to Emil Rohner from Reinach, born in 1927, assigned to Schwere Fusiliers Kompanie 4 (Heavy Infantry Company 4). I can't make out the battalion.....the writing is impeccable quality, but I'm not sure what it means....it looks like an eszett ß but with a long J-like tail attached to it. Usually that place on the tag just has a number for the battalion.

I'm also kinda confused by the Schwere Fusiliers designation. Since the word Fusilier was used originally for light infantry (carrying the Fusil, a light musket), it's confusing me why they have a heavy fusilier designation. I'm wondering how they came to use that. I'll have to ask over on the Swiss Rifles forum.

Very excited! The walnut will clean up very well, and it's already become my favorite rifle. The Schmidt-Rubin is in great condition, and should provide a great project over the next month or so.

ETA: There used to be two different units in the Swiss army..fusiliers and schutzen. The fusiliers carried smoothbores, whereas the schutzen had rifles. So by the time the K31 rolled around the distinction had obviously been dropped for a while, so fusiliers were just regular infantry. The heavy fusiliers, the 4th company, was the heavy weapons company similar to how a US battalion is structured with the 4th company being heavy weapons, or the 4th platoon in a USMC rifle company being the weapons platoon.

iakdrago
11-10-2012, 09:03 AM
This thread needs more pics.

TGS
11-11-2012, 12:43 PM
Hopefully I'll have some good pics for you by the end of the week.

The walnut K31 is disassembled and the stock is drying right now. It had a coat of shellac over top the linseed oil, as was common for Swiss armories to apply after they switched wholesale to shellac with the adoption of beech stocks. It's a nice combo, the amber gloss of the shellac really adds a nice touch to the oxidized linseed (what causes the red tint).

Instead of stripping it entirely, I just took off the shellac last night, cleaned it this morning, and just steamed it. Then I'll hit it with sandpaper to take out a lot of the dents, which this rifle has a lot of. Hopefully the base raw linseed oil will hold up through that so I can keep some of the oxidized look, at which time I can rub in some more oil and then probably a top coat of shellac. If it doesn't work, then I guess I'll just fully strip it and start from scratch. I don't know if I'm willing to put up with the labor of raw linseed oil, so I'll most likely use some Lin-Speed (boiled linseed oil with dryers) I have.

The amount of dents this rifle has is staggering. Like previously noted, it has no water damage.....truly out of the ordinary for an issued K31. My guess is that since Emil Rohner was assigned to a heavy weapons company, he may have never taken it on exercises as he must have been manning a crew-served weapon. Thus, no water damage from sitting it in the snow/banging cleated boots against it, with all the superficial bumps from it being banged around in armories or whatnot.

I was wrong about the 1911, as well. It's not a 1911, as the seller listed. It's a 96/11 (Model 89/96's converted to the 1911 standard). The serial number places it as a 1900 manufactured rifle. The mixup by the seller is inconsequential to me: it was still made to safely shoot modern loads. However, it really angers me when I see M1889's listed as 96/11s, G11's, ect. Those weren't even strong enough to hold up to use with the weaker GP90 cartridge.....shooting modern 7.5 Swiss (GP11) out of them is a ballistic facial reconstruction waiting to happen.

Kyle Reese
11-11-2012, 01:24 PM
TGS,
What is the condition of the bore on the walnut K31? Do you know year of manufacture?

TGS
11-11-2012, 01:49 PM
TGS,
What is the condition of the bore on the walnut K31? Do you know year of manufacture?

The condition of the bore is superb, brand new looking. It's hard to believe that you could find better than the average K31 bore, but this one is. The serial number places it at early 1944 manufacture. All parts are matching, of course.

Another thing that leads me to believe that Emil rarely used it is that it doesn't show the typical bluing wear on the back of the receiver from being carried in the field pack when hiking:
1146

Kyle Reese
11-11-2012, 02:21 PM
Emil might have been the guy always on Rear D.

Joe in PNG
11-11-2012, 03:23 PM
One trick I've read* to get rid of wood dents- use a soldering iron and a wet cloth to steam the dent out.
Practice on something else first, of course.

*in a guitar repair book

TGS
11-11-2012, 03:53 PM
One trick I've read* to get rid of wood dents- use a soldering iron and a wet cloth to steam the dent out.
Practice on something else first, of course.

*in a guitar repair book

It works quite well with rifle stocks as well, but I've never heard of someone using a soldering iron. Seems like there's little margin for error compared to the popular method for riflestocks:
My beech K31 several years ago
1147

Joe in PNG
11-11-2012, 04:03 PM
It's pretty similar, but you do this for the deeper dents. In this case, you fold your towel and put the wet corner on the dent, then use the tip of the soldering iron for steam. But a little at a time, repeat as needed.

TGS
11-15-2012, 09:34 PM
I have some good and bad news.

Unfortunately, the walnut stock was really banged up. Multiple steaming didn't do the trick, so I ended up having to take off some wood via sanding. So, that beautiful old linseed oil is gone.

The good news is that I didn't take off too much, while being able to remove 90% of the dents and dings. And, with taking off the old dirty finish, I discovered that this rifle not only has some awesome grain, but 3 or so small knots as well as tiger striping! She's sitting right now with her second very thin finger/palm-rubbed coat of GB Lin-Speed oil soaking into the stock. She'll need many more coats (I'm predicting a weeks worth more), but she's going to look fantastic. Unfortunately it will be a good 10 years until the nice reddish tinge from oxidized linseed oil begins to return. I'm still thinking of honoring her arsenal treatment heritage by using a top coat of amber shellac after all the oil is cured. The amber could bring out a nice color, as well.

I chopped off the barrel of the 96/11 to 18" and filed it somewhat level. Just like I predicted, the .30" pilot for my chamfer tool from Brownells does not fit the tighter Swiss bore (the 7.5 Swiss uses a common 308 projectile, but the bore is tighter at 7.51mm new compared to 7.62mm). So, I need to find a helpful friend who wouldn't mind turning my .30" pilot on their lathe. Any takers? ;) A gift card is in order for whoever volunteers their skill. If you live local, I've got some gunsmith specials you can have if you're interested (a Gaspar-Arizaga SxS 12ga with a broken stock, and a shot out not-even-qualifying-for-parts-gun J Stevens Little Scout).

TGS
12-01-2012, 05:30 PM
Emil's K31 refinished, with some fun fireworks:
1189

Unfortunately, the forum isn't letting me upload more than one photo. Which is a shame, because each angle you view from this wood presents different grain and whatnot...it's really cool. From a more shallow angle you can see tiger-striping, whereas from another angle the grain really "pops."

Kyle Reese
12-01-2012, 05:32 PM
Gorgeous rifle, TGS. Once I'm back CONUS I will contribute photos to this thread as well.

Ridgeback303
12-07-2012, 08:30 PM
I love the old stuff! Swedes. Enfields, rolling blocks... I got beat up pretty soundly on the shoulder by a P14 last weekend!:cool:

Kyle Reese
12-28-2012, 07:06 PM
AIM Surplus has M91/30's in stock as of 12/28/2012 1906 EST. $99 plus shipping.

TGS
03-13-2013, 03:12 PM
Through the winter I worked on my scout rifle project that I mentioned earlier. I cut and crowned the barrel at 18", and added a Langois Rhodesian sling. It's a good thing that I planned on shortening the barrel, as the muzzle was severely shot out or ovalized from abuse. A new 7.5x55 Swiss rifle bore is 7.51mm, and this thing took a 7.62 pilot with room to spare! It even wiggled!

So, I cut it with a hacksaw, using hose clamps as guides with painter's tape underneath to prevent the hose clamp from scratching the finish. I did a little file work to level it a bit, then using a 90* chamfer in order to true it up to the bore, finishing with a 11* chamfer to give it a target crown. Thing is, they don't make a 7.5 Swiss pilot, so I brought a 7.62 pilot over to rsa-otc's house and we used sandpaper + his drill press to bring it down to a perfect fit. I radiused the edge of the barrel with sandpaper, as well.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/DSC_0039_zpsd63fcaa5.jpg

Then, I tapped off the rear site. This was accomplished with a mallet and punch.....it wasn't soldered like Mosins and the like. Doing so provided a nice flat spot right where the scope base needs to be for a scout rifle. So, I brought it to a local gunsmith to have him drill and tap the scope base. I didn't want to use the ready-to-fit, non-permanent scout mounts from the various commercial guys that are popular with C&R rifles as they do not put the scope in a proper position to use stripper clips, and they are also extremely high.

We had the base I wanted on hand, so I even showed him where it needed to be. I got the rifle back, and woe be me. He mounted it not where I wanted, but so far back that it put the scope halfway over the action! Not only would it block my ability to use stripper clips with it, but it also would have blocked ejection as the Swiss rifles eject straight up, not off to the side.

Not only that.....but the mount was crooked! WTF? It was just a simple drill and tap!

So, again I headed over to rsa-otc's house. We can't tap, but we can drill.....so we drilled more holes into the base itself so we could move the base farther forward. We were able to use 3 of the 4 holes, and with loctite it felt pretty secure. I then mounted my Burris 2.75x20 scout scope and a pair of low-height Warne QD rings. I'm able to compensate for the base being crooked using the windage of the scope, thankfully. I'm considering looking for other scope rings as well.....I like Warne rings, but these are just a tad high. The cheekweld is functional, but could be tighter. I might just have to live with it, as these old Swiss rifles have somewhat low combs compared to modern rifles.

The next step is to cut the fore-end down by a couple inches, as it looks a bit silly right now. I'm holding off while deciding what I want to finish it with, and what style of fore-end I want to make.

So, I took it shooting today for the first time. Success! She shot fantastic. The wind was gusting enough to affect my POA stability, but I was still able to pull off a group of under 2". I also took out my walnut K31 and was able to get a smallest group of just a hair under 1.25". The 96/11 has a much smoother action than the K31, which is just a complete joy to work. In addition, the trigger is lighter than the K31. So, anyone who enjoys C&Rs, and especially if you like the K31.....very much consider buying a K11, G11 or G96/11!

Big thanks go out for rsa-otc for his help in this project thus far. Next up, we're converting my Sears & Roebuck sporterized 1878 Vetterli to centerfire so that it may again shoot! (I hate wall hangers)

Here's the rifle as I bought it in it's bubba'd condition:
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/9611_zpse7787285.jpg

What I've done so far:
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/ScoutHalfwaydone_zps3f76bc3d.jpg

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/Argusrifle_zps66209d52.jpg

Kyle Reese
03-13-2013, 03:15 PM
Argus approves!

Dan_S
03-13-2013, 03:38 PM
Uh oh....

I drooled over a K31 a few years ago, but never made the leap....

Now after seeing those pictures...

Argh....

:o

TGS
03-13-2013, 03:53 PM
Thanks for the comments, guys!


Uh oh....

I drooled over a K31 a few years ago, but never made the leap....

Now after seeing those pictures...

Argh....

:o

https://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=350_351_379&sort=2a&page=14&osCsid=5e22b88cb60867da36755b4303287d21

14 pages to choose from :D

Dan_S
03-13-2013, 03:58 PM
Thanks for the comments, guys!



https://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=350_351_379&sort=2a&page=14&osCsid=5e22b88cb60867da36755b4303287d21

14 pages to choose from :D

I didn't need any help spending money..... :p

Thanks for the link. I may have to break out the piggy bank...

:cool:

TGS
03-13-2013, 04:50 PM
Oh dear. I just realized the pics I put up are with some spare Millet rings I had laying around before the Warne QD's arrived. I'll have to remedy this, and use the camera instead of my cell phone to give you guys decent quality pics.

Tamara
03-13-2013, 06:51 PM
https://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=350_351_379&sort=2a&page=14&osCsid=5e22b88cb60867da36755b4303287d21

14 pages to choose from :D

I hate you.

Clyde from Carolina
03-13-2013, 08:19 PM
Big time C&R fan here. Love, love, love the K-31. :D

A few years ago one of my shooting buddies -- who has won national-level C&R matches shooting them --was trying to describe the K-31 to another shooter who hadn't shot one. The other guy's frame of reference was shooting match grade ARs. My buddy was like, "they have -out of the box - triggers about like a Jewell match job in an AR." Other guy's jaw dropped.

We were buying them for less than a hundred bones then.

I only have two left, and regret selling any at all. I sold one nice blond stocked job to a buddy that was a real sweet shooter - try to buy it back every chance I get.

Tamara
03-16-2013, 05:37 PM
I totally bought another 60 rds of 7.62x45 at the gun show today.

Suppose the zombies attack and I shoot everything else dry and all I have left is the Vz.52 (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/search/label/Czech%20Rifles)? What then? You gotta be ready!

Dan_S
03-16-2013, 06:10 PM
I totally bought another 60 rds of 7.62x45 at the gun show today.

Suppose the zombies attack and I shoot everything else dry and all I have left is the Vz.52 (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/search/label/Czech%20Rifles)? What then? You gotta be ready!

And I learn something new everyday...

I didn't know such a round as 7,62x45 existed....

:o

TGS
03-16-2013, 06:27 PM
I totally bought another 60 rds of 7.62x45 at the gun show today.

Suppose the zombies attack and I shoot everything else dry and all I have left is the Vz.52 (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/search/label/Czech%20Rifles)? What then? You gotta be ready!

Score! Nice find, Tam!

Kyle Reese
03-16-2013, 07:07 PM
Alot of the 7.62x45mm SHE rifles went to Cuba, and some turned up in 1983 in Grenada, IIRC.

Tamara
03-16-2013, 08:47 PM
Alot of the 7.62x45mm SHE rifles went to Cuba, and some turned up in 1983 in Grenada, IIRC.

Yup. A bunch more found their way to Beirut about the same time period.

(I've carefully hoarded about 300 rounds of corrosive, in addition to the Buffalo Arms stuff. I also have two mags and a line on two more. I'm starting to have... wrong... thoughts about taking a carbine class with this thing, just because...)

TGS
03-17-2013, 01:23 PM
I was looking at fun stuff today, and came across some 7.62x45 ammo that you Vz52 shooters might need:
http://www.cdvs.us/762-x-45-C84.aspx

In this market, it's even competitive pricing against mainstream calibers!

littlejerry
03-17-2013, 08:19 PM
No C&R here, but a fan of old junk in general. Old cars, motorcycles, and especially rifles. Unfortunately I'm young and I think missed out on the golden days. I would have loved to stock up on enfields, Swedish mausers, and swiss straight pulls. Unfortunately all the ammo has dried up except for 54r. My only antiques are a Garand and Finnish M39(actual antique with a 1896 receiver). Thank god the Finns made something worth shooting 54r out of.

Kyle Reese
03-17-2013, 08:23 PM
I was looking at fun stuff today, and came across some 7.62x45 ammo that you Vz52 shooters might need:
http://www.cdvs.us/762-x-45-C84.aspx

In this market, it's even competitive pricing against mainstream calibers!

I'm sorely tempted by the VZ52/57...... I owned a '52 years ago, but couldn't find a steady stream of shootable ammo for it, so it was sold or traded in the late 1990s. Very interesting design and a fun weapon to shoot!

TGS
03-17-2013, 09:07 PM
No C&R here, but a fan of old junk in general. Old cars, motorcycles, and especially rifles. Unfortunately I'm young and I think missed out on the golden days. I would have loved to stock up on enfields, Swedish mausers, and swiss straight pulls. Unfortunately all the ammo has dried up except for 54r. My only antiques are a Garand and Finnish M39(actual antique with a 1896 receiver). Thank god the Finns made something worth shooting 54r out of.

No way! Have faith, my friend. While the market isn't as cheap as it was 6 years ago, we're still very much in the Golden Age of C&R guns.

According to the best estimates, there's a good 5-6 market-years left of GP11 ammo from Switzerland before they start lowering export. We're starting to get in batches from 1982, and they will start cutting export once batches from 1985 go out as to preserve their 85-95 batches for use back home. That may change, however, as Switzerland's population is using less and less 7.5x55 rifles every year in favor of the Stg90 (SIG 550). GP11 is match grade ammo, cost $.50 a round, and is widely available from places like The Sportsmans Guide, SAMCO, AIM, and other larger gun shops.

For Swiss rifles specifically.......no, they don't cost $79 anymore, but with current prices I think $300-$450 is still a bargain for what you're getting. There's also a lot of high quality accessories for Swiss rifles out there, such as permanent and non-permanent scope mounts, recoil-pad adapters for the butt, spare mags, stripper clips, spare parts, muzzle brakes (permanent and non-perm), diopter sights, ect.

As for ammo for other rifles, Prvi Partizan makes a lot of obscure calibers at fair prices. Usually around $15 per 20 rounds, and each caliber usually is available as both FMJ and JSPs.

TONS of Yugo Mausers out there for $200. Plenty of Swedish, Argentinian, Spanish, Persian, and Brazilian Mausers, as well. While Fred has discussed how unpleasant the Steyr 95 is, they're still out there for $99(!). There's a fair amount of barreled actions for project guns out there, too. Overall, yeah, the prices are higher than 8 years ago. No more $49 Mosins or $100 SKS rifles, but when we look back 10 years from now we'll definitely remember today as still part of the Golden Age. Don't hesitate, bro. Get in while the gettin' is still good!

littlejerry
03-17-2013, 09:57 PM
No way! Have faith, my friend. While the market isn't as cheap as it was 6 years ago, we're still very much in the Golden Age of C&R guns.

According to the best estimates, there's a good 5-6 market-years left of GP11 ammo from Switzerland before they start lowering export. We're starting to get in batches from 1982, and they will start cutting export once batches from 1985 go out as to preserve their 85-95 batches for use back home. That may change, however, as Switzerland's population is using less and less 7.5x55 rifles every year in favor of the Stg90 (SIG 550). GP11 is match grade ammo, cost $.50 a round, and is widely available from places like The Sportsmans Guide, SAMCO, AIM, and other larger gun shops.

For Swiss rifles specifically.......no, they don't cost $79 anymore, but with current prices I think $300-$450 is still a bargain for what you're getting. There's also a lot of high quality accessories for Swiss rifles out there, such as permanent and non-permanent scope mounts, recoil-pad adapters for the butt, spare mags, stripper clips, spare parts, muzzle brakes (permanent and non-perm), diopter sights, ect.

As for ammo for other rifles, Prvi Partizan makes a lot of obscure calibers at fair prices. Usually around $15 per 20 rounds, and each caliber usually is available as both FMJ and JSPs.

TONS of Yugo Mausers out there for $200. Plenty of Swedish, Argentinian, Spanish, Persian, and Brazilian Mausers, as well. While Fred has discussed how unpleasant the Steyr 95 is, they're still out there for $99(!). There's a fair amount of barreled actions for project guns out there, too. Overall, yeah, the prices are higher than 8 years ago. No more $49 Mosins or $100 SKS rifles, but when we look back 10 years from now we'll definitely remember today as still part of the Golden Age. Don't hesitate, bro. Get in while the gettin' is still good!

A K31 is seriously tempting.

I also want a M38 and nice Mauser...

Tamara
03-17-2013, 11:06 PM
No way! Have faith, my friend. While the market isn't as cheap as it was 6 years ago, we're still very much in the Golden Age of C&R guns.

Besides, the golden age of surplus bolt guns was closer to sixty years ago than six. ;)

While there was a bit of a resurgence in the mid-'90s to the early Aughties thanks to the confluence of FOPA '86 and then the end of the Cold War, the real boom years were back in the '50s and early '60s, back when the world's militaries were re-arming with self-loaders, GCA '68 didn't yet exist, and American surplus dealers were importing South American and Middle Eastern and African Mausers by the score.

I am told that gun shops and hardware stores had barrels of $10 rifles on the floor: Chilean M95s, Siamese M1903s, Carcanos, Mannlicher-Schoenauers... If kids couldn't get their mom to go to the hardware store and buy them an old war rifle, they could get their dad to order one out of the back of a magazine. I talk to people who are fifteen and twenty years older than me and hear stories of kids riding home from the surplus store on the city bus or subway with their new Mauser propped next to them and nobody batting an eye, and this in NYC or Chicago back in the Fifties... Wild stuff. 'Course, you know there must've been mass shootings EVERYPLACE with all those guns running around loose with no background checks... :rolleyes:

ACP230
03-18-2013, 07:44 AM
I recall barrels of British Enfields at the local Woolworth store.
Missed the good deals in the back of Guns & Ammo and Shooting Times
because I was 10 years too young.

Also recall an Army Surplus store on State Street in Minneapolis with a table full of Lugers.
Right next to the surplus rubber boats.

And $79 dollar M1s and Carbines...

TGS
03-18-2013, 09:15 AM
I recall barrels of British Enfields at the local Woolworth store.
Missed the good deals in the back of Guns & Ammo and Shooting Times
because I was 10 years too young.

Also recall an Army Surplus store on State Street in Minneapolis with a table full of Lugers.
Right next to the surplus rubber boats.

And $79 dollar M1s and Carbines...

Keeping in mind that $79 back then would be about a $600+ expenditure today, about the price of an Garand or Carbine. A new manufacture Remington 700 during the 60's was almost $79, so a $79 Garand wouldn't really have been that cheap.

Sure, the guns were $79 which seems cheap compared to context-less numbers from today....but a well-to-do man's salary was $300/month in the 1950's, too.

Tamara
03-18-2013, 09:28 AM
Keeping in mind that $79 back then would be about a $600+ expenditure today, about the price of an Garand or Carbine.

Shooter-grade Garands right now are as cheap as they've ever been: The post-FOPA flood of surplus Greek and Korean guns drove prices down to inflation-adjusted historic lows. Pre-FOPA, a decent Garand had crept up to the $600-$800 range for a nice one, and that was in great big '85 dollars, the same year I bought a '74 Gran Torino with 48k on the clock for $650.

M1 Carbines, however, are hitting an all-time high water mark, even adjusting for inflation. If you'd told me ten or twelve years ago that nice GI carbines would be fetching $800-$1k or more, I'd have looked at you like you had a screw loose. It's the Band of Brothers effect, I think; all USGI stuff has exploded in value. Look at what GI 1911s have done in the past decade... (And of course M1 Carbines can be trickier to re-import with a bayonet lug and a detachable magazine...)

TGS
03-18-2013, 09:36 AM
Shooter-grade Garands right now are as cheap as they've ever been: The post-FOPA flood of surplus Greek and Korean guns drove prices down to inflation-adjusted historic lows. Pre-FOPA, a decent Garand had crept up to the $600-$800 range for a nice one, and that was in great big '85 dollars, the same year I bought a '74 Gran Torino with 48k on the clock for $650.

M1 Carbines, however, are hitting an all-time high water mark, even adjusting for inflation. If you'd told me ten or twelve years ago that nice GI carbines would be fetching $800-$1k or more, I'd have looked at you like you had a screw loose. It's the Band of Brothers effect, I think; all USGI stuff has exploded in value. Look at what GI 1911s have done in the past decade... (And of course M1 Carbines can be trickier to re-import with a bayonet lug and a detachable magazine...)

Really? SAMCO had Carbines for $599 just a few months ago.

Tamara
03-18-2013, 09:51 AM
Really? SAMCO had Carbines for $599 just a few months ago.

You can get shooter-grade ones for six bills wholesale (or six bills plus transfer fee, if you want to look at it like that) but it's been a while since I've seen a nice one for less than eight, and if it doesn't have the postwar bayo lug and sight? Bring money.

Clyde from Carolina
03-18-2013, 08:50 PM
Shooter-grade Garands right now are as cheap as they've ever been: The post-FOPA flood of surplus Greek and Korean guns drove prices down to inflation-adjusted historic lows. Pre-FOPA, a decent Garand had crept up to the $600-$800 range for a nice one, and that was in great big '85 dollars, the same year I bought a '74 Gran Torino with 48k on the clock for $650.

M1 Carbines, however, are hitting an all-time high water mark, even adjusting for inflation. If you'd told me ten or twelve years ago that nice GI carbines would be fetching $800-$1k or more, I'd have looked at you like you had a screw loose. It's the Band of Brothers effect, I think; all USGI stuff has exploded in value. Look at what GI 1911s have done in the past decade... (And of course M1 Carbines can be trickier to re-import with a bayonet lug and a detachable magazine...)

Yeah, the Carbines have gone nuts, and I'm sure Band of Btothers ain't helping. :D

Speaking of paratroopers and WWII Carbines (how's that for a segue?)...a dear friend's father was a paratrooper in WWII in the Pacific. He is an Army vet himself, but not really a "gun guy." He asked me a while back to take a look at a Carbine he had. It seems his father was KIA in the Philippines and some of his Dad's buddies brought a Carbine home as a gift for my friend who was an infant at the time.

This gun was "out of the closet" and dusty and probably hadn't been cleaned since the war. By coincidence I had a WWII Marine vet friend visiting at the house when I got the gun, and he helped me detail strip and clean it for my buddy. Surreal experience all around. I don't know that this was my buddy's Dad's personal weapon, but I do know it is an early production, 2-43 barrel date Inland; a correct, totally legit WWII M1A1 "Paratrooper" Carbine. It hasn't been re-worked or re-built like most were postwar, and that alone makes it über rare. No bayonet lug; sight is a flip; safety is a push job. Colors and finishes are correct. I sent photos to Scott Duff and he said it looked right as rain to him.

http://www.fototime.com/914560E5614DCA4/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/5050DB5FB5CE662/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/314021F82B93D0E/standard.jpg

blake_g
03-20-2013, 03:50 PM
Yeah, the Carbines have gone nuts, and I'm sure Band of Btothers ain't helping. :D

Speaking of paratroopers and WWII Carbines (how's that for a segue?)...a dear friend's father was a paratrooper in WWII in the Pacific. He is an Army vet himself, but not really a "gun guy." He asked me a while back to take a look at a Carbine he had. It seems his father was KIA in the Philippines and some of his Dad's buddies brought a Carbine home as a gift for my friend who was an infant at the time.

This gun was "out of the closet" and dusty and probably hadn't been cleaned since the war. By coincidence I had a WWII Marine vet friend visiting at the house when I got the gun, and he helped me detail strip and clean it for my buddy. Surreal experience all around. I don't know that this was my buddy's Dad's personal weapon, but I do know it is an early production, 2-43 barrel date Inland; a correct, totally legit WWII M1A1 "Paratrooper" Carbine. It hasn't been re-worked or re-built like most were postwar, and that alone makes it über rare. No bayonet lug; sight is a flip; safety is a push job. Colors and finishes are correct. I sent photos to Scott Duff and he said it looked right as rain to him.

http://www.fototime.com/914560E5614DCA4/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/5050DB5FB5CE662/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/314021F82B93D0E/standard.jpg


Please let me be the same to say that is extremely cool!!! There's nothing quite like holding a piece of history in your hands...


blake

Tamara
03-21-2013, 08:45 AM
This gun was "out of the closet" and dusty and probably hadn't been cleaned since the war. By coincidence I had a WWII Marine vet friend visiting at the house when I got the gun, and he helped me detail strip and clean it for my buddy. Surreal experience all around. I don't know that this was my buddy's Dad's personal weapon, but I do know it is an early production, 2-43 barrel date Inland; a correct, totally legit WWII M1A1 "Paratrooper" Carbine. It hasn't been re-worked or re-built like most were postwar, and that alone makes it über rare. No bayonet lug; sight is a flip; safety is a push job. Colors and finishes are correct. I sent photos to Scott Duff and he said it looked right as rain to him.

That thing's worth more than I paid for my '99 Subaru, and by a fair amount, at that. :eek:

Clyde from Carolina
03-21-2013, 11:51 AM
That thing's worth more than I paid for my '99 Subaru, and by a fair amount, at that. :eek:

Yep, I told him that. Of course it is priceless to him for reasons other than monetary, and I think he was a little bemused by my awe over it. I gave him an extra copy of a carbine collectors guide to help him appreciate it a little more from a rarity/collector standpoint. I felt like Carter in the Valley of the Kings taking that thing out of the little gym bag in my kitchen.

TGS
03-23-2013, 10:35 AM
Word from the Lucerne gun show last Thursday is that Simpson's Ltd is frustrated at not being able to buy as many good K31s as they're used to. So, if you're thinking you might want a Swiss straight pull, the clock is ticking.......

Tamara
03-23-2013, 02:27 PM
Word from the Lucerne gun show last Thursday is that Simpson's Ltd is frustrated at not being able to buy as many good K31s as they're used to. So, if you're thinking you might want a Swiss straight pull, the clock is ticking.......

Got a nice K31 and a 96/11; guess if I'm going to pull the trigger on a K11, now's the time.

TGS
03-24-2013, 07:59 PM
In roughly 6 weeks, Simpson's Ltd will be adding 330 Swiss straight-pulls as they clear customs. "Guisan," (I'm sure you've seen his name if you're on any C&R forums), recommends that we ask for slugged or measured bore dimensions before buying: max acceptable is 7.56mm by Swiss standards. He believes that we will be seeing many more gunsmith specials in the coming year, which to me isn't exactly a bad thing. Project guns are awesome, and keep me from hacking up good originals! However, a new barrel for a K31 will run about $600+ from Larry Racine, the only competent Swiss rifle gunsmith I know of in America....so keep that in mind.

Sidenote: rsa-otc and I converted my 1878 Vetterli to centerfire today.

Dan_S
03-24-2013, 08:17 PM
However, a new barrel for a K31 will run about $600+ from Larry Racine, the only competent Swiss rifle gunsmith I know of in America....so keep that in mind.


Is that so?

Right now I'm about ten miles from Larry's shop. I know he's a wizard with Mauser rifles, but I haven't seen many K-31s in his shop.

I think I'll swing by tomorrow to talk to him about snagging a K-31... I think the itch finally needs scratched....

TGS
03-24-2013, 08:35 PM
Yup. The size of the shank is unavailable in barrel blanks here, not to mention the machining of the face is a bitch. I believe what he does is actually leave the original shank in the receiver, and reams out the shank to screw a new barrel into the shank.

Picture credit due to Guisan and Bob S from other forums

K31 Barrel Shank vs 1911 barrel shank of more conventional size:
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/Firearms/barrelshanks_zps7d329854.jpg

K31 breech face of barrel shank:
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/Firearms/K31barrelbreechface_zpsfc71e508.jpg

Sideview of the massive K31 barrel shank:
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/Firearms/K31-barrel-shank2_zps7f912650.jpg

Dan_S
03-24-2013, 08:41 PM
Yup. The size of the shank is unavailable in barrel blanks here, not to mention the machining of the face is a bitch. I believe what he does is actually leave the original shank in the receiver, and reams out the shank to screw a new barrel into the shank.


Well, I guess I'll find out tomorrow.... :)



I already know this isn't going to end well for my wallet... :eek:

TGS
03-24-2013, 08:44 PM
Well, I guess I'll find out tomorrow.... :)



I already know this isn't going to end well for my wallet... :eek:

;)

Please let us know what happens. I'd love to hear any knowledge or stories Mr. Racine drops on you, as well.

Dan_S
03-24-2013, 08:48 PM
;)

Please let us know what happens. I'd love to hear any knowledge or stories Mr. Racine drops on you, as well.

OK, will do. :cool:


I'll have to check on the status of the fifty cal bolt gun that has been a work in progress...for the past...three or four years.... ;)

Dan_S
03-25-2013, 11:46 PM
Stopped by Larry's place today.

Picked his brain about the option of having a K31 rebarreled in .243. Not sure what I'm going to do, but at least I have a better idea now of what is an option, and what isn't an option.

After talking to Larry, I'm almost leaning towards just getting a K31 and keeping it original. He actually had several nice K31s, K1911s, and such sitting there waiting to go home with me... ;)

I'm re-impressed with the trigger on those guns.... Just wow...!!

JAD
03-26-2013, 05:24 AM
Caveat, that you should only mess with a k31 if you already have an as-Swissed version laid up in the safe.

When I think about rebarrelling surplus guns I look at the case head dimensions to see if I can save rebuilding the bolt. The bolt face in a k31 doesn't look simple to me.

Know what? Same as 376 Steyr.

I like 7.5 Swiss a lot. I worry, but haven't proven to myself yet, that by cutting down my pseudo scout to 19" I am making the cartridge really inefficient (we'll see. I have dies, brass, and powder; I can probably fix it).

376 Steyr loves a short barrel. 376 Steyr should be good for most non-eatchoo critters in the field. I'd be interested to see if GJM has examined it for use on dangerous game.

TGS
03-26-2013, 10:03 AM
I was looking into 376 Steyr for a K31 project, as well. Instead of rebarreling, I was thinking I'd just get it bored out.

But, the project gun I ended up finding was a 96/11, and 376 Steyr in that action would have been playing with fire.

Did you ever get around to shooting that scout K31? I've been anxious to find out. FWIW, it shouldn't be any less efficient than a 19" 308, which is largely regarded as acceptable.

Tamara
03-26-2013, 08:31 PM
After talking to Larry, I'm almost leaning towards just getting a K31 and keeping it original.

With FNM and Prvi ammo being fairly readily available, there's not a thing wrong with that plan.


But, the project gun I ended up finding was a 96/11, and 376 Steyr in that action would have been playing with fire.

That may clinch "Understatement of the Week", and it's not Wednesday yet. :o

TGS
03-26-2013, 09:04 PM
That may clinch "Understatement of the Week", and it's not Wednesday yet. :o

Being that the MAS36 has rear mounted lugs similar to a Schmidt-Rubin M1889, how does the action strength compare? The K31 is plenty stout, the 89/96, 96/11, G11/K11 are adequate, but the true Schmidt-Rubin M1889 being too weak to handle even the original GP90 ammo. So, I'm curious if it sees the same compressive stress issue. Any idea?

Dan_S
03-27-2013, 08:47 AM
With FNM and Prvi ammo being fairly readily available, there's not a thing wrong with that plan.



Except for the fact that I really didn't want to add another caliber to the mix. :(

Oh well, life goes on... :cool:

TGS
03-27-2013, 08:55 AM
Except for the fact that I really didn't want to add another caliber to the mix. :(

Oh well, life goes on... :cool:

Triumph of the oddball caliber:

I can buy as much 7.5 Swiss as I want right now. Match grade, mid- and high quality hunting, or plinking....and it's relatively cheap.

Also, if you reload and currently stock 308, then the only new component you need are the cases. 7.5 Swiss can use common 308 projectiles.

Kyle Reese
03-27-2013, 01:22 PM
I wish I still has my MAS 36. :(

Dan_S
03-27-2013, 07:39 PM
I wish I still has my MAS 36. :(

What caliber was your MAS in?

Kyle Reese
03-27-2013, 07:40 PM
What caliber was your MAS in?

7.5x54

Dan_S
03-27-2013, 07:44 PM
7.5x54

OK, hmm...

Didn't know if you had one of the converted rifles or not.

How did yours shoot?


Uh oh... I'm on a bolt gun kick I think.... :p

Kyle Reese
03-27-2013, 07:48 PM
OK, hmm...

Didn't know if you had one of the converted rifles or not.

How did yours shoot?


Uh oh... I'm on a bolt gun kick I think.... :p

Mine shot well. No manual safety and a Glock like trigger pull, but given the chance I'd get another.

Tamara
03-27-2013, 08:32 PM
Mine shot well. No manual safety and a Glock like trigger pull, but given the chance I'd get another.

It's really a handy little rifle, and thanks to Prvi, the ammo situation is a jillion times better now. I need to try some of their ammo in my 49/56 and see if the primers are any harder than those butter-soft ones FNM uses. The gigantic floating FP in my 49 renders it un-fireable with the Portuguese stuff.

(I think the "no manual safety" is such an interesting quirk of French .mil bolt guns: From the Chassepot to the MAS-36, none of 'em had one. It makes me wish I could read French so I could dig through old French TRÁDÔÇ manuals and uncover the reasoning behind that.)

Tamara
03-27-2013, 08:38 PM
Being that the MAS36 has rear mounted lugs similar to a Schmidt-Rubin M1889, how does the action strength compare? The K31 is plenty stout, the 89/96, 96/11, G11/K11 are adequate, but the true Schmidt-Rubin M1889 being too weak to handle even the original GP90 ammo. So, I'm curious if it sees the same compressive stress issue. Any idea?

While I can't speak authoritatively on it, the bolt is fairly short and hella stout, so it's not like an '89, where the lugs are, like, a foot away from the boltface...

JAD
03-28-2013, 09:45 AM
Did you ever get around to shooting that scout K31? I've been anxious to find out. FWIW, it shouldn't be any less efficient than a 19" 308, which is largely regarded as acceptable.
-- Nope, not yet. I have an issue to work on in getting it to feed - the fit to the stock from the gunsmith interferes with magazine position (I gather). It's a massive diagnosis headache, so I have been hiding from my own rifle.

I should take it out and single-feed it, though. If it shoots well, it will motivate me to get to fixin'.

Kyle Reese
03-28-2013, 10:22 AM
It's really a handy little rifle, and thanks to Prvi, the ammo situation is a jillion times better now. I need to try some of their ammo in my 49/56 and see if the primers are any harder than those butter-soft ones FNM uses. The gigantic floating FP in my 49 renders it un-fireable with the Portuguese stuff.

(I think the "no manual safety" is such an interesting quirk of French .mil bolt guns: From the Chassepot to the MAS-36, none of 'em had one. It makes me wish I could read French so I could dig through old French TRÁDÔÇ manuals and uncover the reasoning behind that.)

Agreed 100% on Prvi. Heck, they manufacture all of the classic European calibers now. Got a hungry Carcano, K31, MAS 36, SMLE, K98 or STG 44? No problemo. :)

I'm at a loss as to why there is no manual safety on the MAS 36.

I had the chance to buy a MAS 46/56 from Empire Arms a few weeks ago, and passed. I regret that choice now...:(

TGS
03-28-2013, 11:04 AM
With the Maginot Line in mind, I'd assume that the French were still very much entrenched (pun intended) in traditional tactics of Napoleonic-ish controlled fires where a manual safety had no use. Not straight-up volley fire, but the idea of a squad-level ambush and patrols where walking around with a loaded weapon was foreign to them.

At least, that's my take on it. In any case, the human race didn't use safeties to a point of obsession like today's tactical gurus. The idea of having an ND while your gun was pointed at the enemy wasn't the faux pas it is today, and safeties were generally left off once engaged in a fight.

TGS
05-06-2013, 06:17 PM
So for some reason I didn't like the finish that Lin-Speed oil gave me. It popped the grain very well, but didn't do much in color. In addition, when viewed up-close under light, you can make out what appears to be a plastic-y finish on top of the wood.

So, I stripped it off. I've worked with boiled linseed oil a few times before, but never raw....so I figured it's time to try my hand at raw linseed oil. Hopefully you can see the difference between RLO below and from Lin-Speed in a photo I posted earlier in the thread, but it's pretty big to me. RLO has much more color than the Lin-Speed, especially in red hues. I'm just guessing this is because it still has all the foots in it, which is completely removed in Lin-Speed and largely removed in BLO (but still present to some degree). It doesn't have the plastic-y sort of coat to it, and as a result doesn't pop the grain as much. RLO also shows the scarring over the years much, much more than Lin-Speed, which seems to hide them. So, consider these and what you're looking for when refinishing a wood stock. Personally, having a real linseed oil finish counts for me.....I'm doubtful that Lin-Speed would have aged well like linseed oil as well.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/Firearms/DSC_0070_zps77487559.jpg (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/Finkerfuggles/media/Firearms/DSC_0070_zps77487559.jpg.html)

After having worked multiple times with BLO, and now RLO, I'm entirely convinced that all the horror stories of "linseed oil never dries!" are from people who are doing it wrong. I used a kit from Garand Gear (http://www.garandgear.com/m1garand/detail/28-wood-stock-products/flypage/67-raw-linseed-oil-kit?sef=hcfp), which came with directions that follow the common sense method I learned when I was 14; apply, wipe off the excess in 30 min to an hour, allow to dry a full day in an appropriate climate. Repeat. Cutting the oil can help with reducing the drying time, as you physically have less oil to dry over a given area. The only difference from conventional wisdom is that Garand Gear's kit uses orange oil to cut the linseed oil, whereas convention dictates mineral spirits or turpentine. I like the orange oil, it smelled great and seems to have done its job.

So, I'm entirely convinced that the horror stories come from people who don't allow sufficient drying time, apply way to much oil/don't wipe off the excess, or try to refinish with an inappropriate climate (too hot, too cold, too humid). It's really not hard stuff to work with; fear not the linseed oil.

Chuck Haggard
05-06-2013, 06:23 PM
That is a good looking gun.

Dan_S
05-06-2013, 07:28 PM
Wow, TGS! That rifle looks amazing!

TGS
05-06-2013, 08:25 PM
Thanks, fellas!

Unfortunately the same can't be said for the closet door behind it, placed back on the hinges mid-project. One of these days.......... :rolleyes:

Clyde from Carolina
05-06-2013, 09:40 PM
That's a real purty K-31. I was seriously into stock rehab a few years back and tried a bunch of different things, but a properly applied linseed oil finish is hard to beat. My buddy Rob, who is a K-31 aficionado and a seriously good, nationally-ranked shot with one (I met him because of buying one) used to have a really neat recipe for a very Swiss-like refinish. It looked great but I don't remember the details. I still have one he did - a '55 that is a sweet shooter- and it looks good. (Don't have a pic handy, sorry.)

I fondly remember hanging out on the old Swiss rifle forum years ago and admiring all the nice Swiss rifle gun porn. ;) Guisan (Frank) sold me some nice binos and knives thanks to that forum! Still have 'em. :rolleyes:

Tamara
05-06-2013, 09:44 PM
That looks so pretty I think I'll go hug my 96/11. :)

DanH
05-07-2013, 05:10 AM
Damn. If I could get one that looked that nice I'd be haunting the guns shows right now...

Excellent work there.

TGS
05-07-2013, 07:44 PM
used to have a really neat recipe for a very Swiss-like refinish.

The original recipe for walnut has been posted by Guisan a few times. It's a mix of beeswax, kerosene, raw linseed oil, and fruit wine (vinegar). I figured this was close enough. I'm a little open to interpretation, as well, as many K31s have arrived with refinishes by private Swiss shooters and also shellacked over by arsenal visits post 1946. My plan for this one is to let the finish oxidize a little (turn a little red) and then shellac it with a french polish for a smooth, semi-gloss look that will really pop the grain. I've got some ruby shellac flakes waiting.

I didn't want to go with the original Swiss recipe as I think there's too many variables to play around with, not to mention translation issues (they call it paraffin, we call it kerosene, parrafin is a totally different substance to us, fruit wine vs fruit vinegar, ect)....what sort of fruit wine/vinegar? How refined? What alcohol content? Ect, ect ect....all those little things could have big impacts on the integrity of the finish. I figured I'd keep it simple.


That looks so pretty I think I'll go hug my 96/11. :)

Less hugging, moar pics! I never saw any on your blog, if that's the case.....perhaps I did something wrong.


Damn. If I could get one that looked that nice I'd be haunting the guns shows right now...

Gunbroker, my friend. Gunbroker. You just have to keep an eye out. ;)

Clyde from Carolina
05-07-2013, 08:07 PM
TGS, reading your post brings back a lot of nice memories from the various Swiss boards I used to frequent. I don't recall if Rob's recipe was the same as Guisan's or not. I seem to recall he had tweaked it a bit, but I could be wrong. I've toyed with a lot of different C&R sub sets and if I could commit to one long enough to "specialize" it might very well be the Swiss rifles, especially the K-31s. They are beautifully made and reasonably priced compared to my other interests like Garands and '03s. They are wonderful rifles and worthy of our obsessing over esoteric stock finishes, etc. :D

Edit- here's a few photos...although I hesitate to post, but these threads are so much better with pics, even poor ones. These are ancient and some of the first digital gun pics I took nearly ten years ago. The blonde stock is walnut and '44 production. The reddish stock is a beech '55 done by my buddy Rob. Forgive the poor pics- I really need to take some new ones.

http://www.fototime.com/433C9469FA830E4/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/0C09213260C0FA0/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/32A3351591C61F7/standard.jpg

TGS
05-07-2013, 08:28 PM
Cool stuff, Cmaster.

What did he use for the beech? It's awfully red-brown for a beech stock, which the Swiss only used shellac on. It almost looks like he stained it, as the grain is pretty well hidden.

I like the knots in the walnut. Very clean finishes on both.

Do you still have them?

Clyde from Carolina
05-07-2013, 08:55 PM
Thanks. Yeah, I still have them both. My other K-31s are long gone. I'll have to ask Rob what he did to the '55. It is dark for beech. These two both shoot well with GP11 and they just look cool to me. That's why I kept them, I guess.

I wish I had kept a '42 with a walnut stock that was original finish and a good shooter, but I let it go in a moment of weakness. I hound the buddy I sold it to every time I see him. :D

(Of course I have another buddy who has told me many, many times that he wants first right of refusal on "Blondie" - the '44 walnut job - if I ever sell.)

Clyde

Kyle Reese
07-25-2013, 06:53 PM
I've got a hankering for a MAS 49/56 and AG-42B.....

TGS
07-25-2013, 07:06 PM
I've got a hankering for a MAS 49/56 and AG-42B.....

Unless you feel like dressing up in black pajamas and yelling "GI you die!" my vote is for the Llungman.

Kyle Reese
07-25-2013, 07:08 PM
Unless you feel like dressing up in black pajamas and yelling "GI you die!" my vote is for the Llungman.

Ljungman thumb looks quite painful....

Clyde from Carolina
07-25-2013, 07:36 PM
Never owned one but if it is like M1 thumb, easily avoided with a little thunkin' and training. Played with Garands for years and never got an M1 thumb, but I respect that op rod and bolt greatly.

The MAS's have always felt really neat when I picked one up, very Jungle Carbine-like and handy with a good balance. That's the extent of my experience with them, not counting second hand reading.

Tamara
07-26-2013, 08:49 AM
I've got a hankering for a MAS 49/56 and AG-42B.....

Remember to get the firing pin lightened on the 49/56; mine gave Oleg "MAS thumb"*. (There was somebody selling titanium ones for a while, but they've disappeared.)


*He dropped the bolt and the resulting slamfire happened before he'd gotten his thumb out of the way of that big ol' plastic bolt knob. :eek:

JAD
07-27-2013, 07:19 AM
I imagine that's the second most common reason MAS's get dropped.

Tamara
07-27-2013, 07:38 AM
I imagine that's the second most common reason MAS's get dropped.

Hurr hurr. What do the frogs know about courage at arms (http://www.verdun-douaumont.com/en/) anyway? :o

(Interestingly, older French gun nuts and veterans get all weepy and sentimental about the MAS 49 versus the FAMAS the way our guys do about the M14 vs the '16.)

JAD
07-27-2013, 07:49 AM
I do not resist cheap shots at the French. My prejudices are very well founded, and I assure you the favor is returned.

Kyle Reese
07-27-2013, 08:22 AM
Hurr hurr. What do the frogs know about courage at arms (http://www.verdun-douaumont.com/en/) anyway? :o

(Interestingly, older French gun nuts and veterans get all weepy and sentimental about the MAS 49 versus the FAMAS the way our guys do about the M14 vs the '16.)

The MAS 49 series of rifles were/are excellent rifles. I can envision the looks of disdain on the face of the salty French NCO's in the early 1980's being told to hand in their 49/56's and being handed a weapon that resembles a clarion. :cool:

Drang
07-27-2013, 09:38 AM
I do not resist cheap shots at the French. My prejudices are very well founded, and I assure you the favor is returned.

Chris Hernandez (http://chrishernandezauthor.com/) disagrees with you.
Working with the French Army (http://chrishernandezauthor.com/2013/07/09/working-with-the-french-army/)
“Even God hates us” | chrishernandezauthor (http://chrishernandezauthor.com/2012/10/08/even-god-hates-us/)

JAD
07-27-2013, 10:39 AM
I wanted to edit my post and not be such a dew-shay, but tapatalk. I will thus offer this mitigating complement: the French smoke cigarettes better than any culture on the face of the planet. Now that's something to hang your silly little hat with a stem on.

Drang
07-27-2013, 03:32 PM
Their political leadership sucks, but then, who are we to talk?

Clyde from Carolina
07-27-2013, 03:36 PM
Their political leadership sucks, but then, who are we to talk?

Ouch; way to rock the perspective thing.

TGS
07-31-2013, 07:32 PM
I've got a hankering for a MAS 49/56 and AG-42B.....

Fred,

You end up getting anything?

Kyle Reese
07-31-2013, 07:36 PM
Fred,

You end up getting anything?

Na.... Can't justify the cost and didn't see any for sale.

Tamara
08-11-2013, 11:26 PM
To Whom It May Concern:

My current favorite milsurp rifle is a Brazilian 1908/34 in .30-'06.

Because it's a Mauser 98. In .30-'06.

If you don't understand that, maybe the C&R thing isn't the hobby for you?

Sorry, I just had to unburden myself. :o

Kyle Reese
08-12-2013, 09:19 AM
Any thoughts on the M47 Madsen?

TGS
08-16-2013, 01:25 PM
New supplies of Swiss rifles (http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=350_351_379)now posted at Simpsons Ltd.

Including 3 ZFK 55, some ZFK 31/42 and 31/43 sniper rifles. One of the ZFK55 rifles (http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?cPath=350_351_379&products_id=28461) is as-new, arsenal refurbished.

:D

Tamara
08-16-2013, 02:26 PM
Any thoughts on the M47 Madsen?

I've always wanted one, if only for its "last of the dinosaurs" significance.

Clyde from Carolina
08-16-2013, 04:54 PM
New supplies of Swiss rifles (http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=350_351_379)now posted at Simpsons Ltd.

Including 3 ZFK 55, some ZFK 31/42 and 31/43 sniper rifles. One of the ZFK55 rifles (http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?cPath=350_351_379&products_id=28461) is as-new, arsenal refurbished.

:D

That ZFK55 would be SO sweet to have. I still kick myself for not buying a real deal Enfield Enforcer once for a great price. Some of those old shooters are just too wicked cool.

Kyle Reese
08-16-2013, 05:31 PM
I'll be in my bunk.:)

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

TGS
08-16-2013, 05:36 PM
I'll be in my bunk.:)

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

Don't use your pillow.

I....uh.....yeah........

Al T.
08-16-2013, 05:55 PM
My current favorite milsurp rifle is a Brazilian 1908/34 in .30-'06.

Seriously cool. :cool: Mine is an 8mm Persian Mauser carbine, though the 03A3 is hot on it's heels.....

Kyle Reese
08-24-2013, 07:05 AM
Brit Enfield Jungle Carbines at AIM (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=728&name=Enfield%20No.%205%20MK%201%20.303%20Brit%20Ju ngle%20Carbine)

As of 0805 EST they have six in stock.

TGS
08-24-2013, 09:07 AM
I could never really warm up to the No 5 Jungle.

I really, really want to like it. But its wandering zero is just a huge turn off.

Now, the SMLE rifles? Yes, please! Loved shooting them.

LHS
08-24-2013, 02:32 PM
I have an Ishapore 7.62x51 that was cut down into jungle carbine configuration. They're neat guns, but between the wandering zero, cost of .303 ammo, and general unpleasantness to shoot, I'll pass on the originals.

Tamara
08-24-2013, 03:06 PM
Brit Enfield Jungle Carbines at AIM (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=728&name=Enfield%20No.%205%20MK%201%20.303%20Brit%20Ju ngle%20Carbine)

As of 0805 EST they have six in stock.

I'd really want to go hands on with those things, having been burned by Khyber fakes before and seeing it happen plenty*. Look at the machining in the right-hand side rear receiver lightening cut in the picture at AIM and then the one here (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/07/22/jungle-carbine-real-fake/). Something about those has my spider sense going, especially considering that chop-jobs and outright fakes outnumber real No5s by a considerable margin.

*The guys from Tennessee Guns had a buyer get hoodwinked in Pakistan in the classic style, being shown a dusty container of pristine hardware, inluding rare early Lee-Speeds and cavalry carbines, way out in the sticks. Then it's back to town where he's pressured by the seller back in the hotel bar while being plied with illegal booze, all while the seller is taking phone calls from "other people" who are "oh, eager to buy, if you don't, they will buy now..." and then the container gets cracked open in the customs bonded warehouse stateside and it's all been replaced with Khyber copies.

TGS
08-24-2013, 03:27 PM
Great info, Tam.

Clyde from Carolina
08-24-2013, 05:21 PM
I'd really want to go hands on with those things, having been burned by Khyber fakes before and seeing it happen plenty*. Look at the machining in the right-hand side rear receiver lightening cut in the picture at AIM and then the one here (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/07/22/jungle-carbine-real-fake/). Something about those has my spider sense going, especially considering that chop-jobs and outright fakes outnumber real No5s by a considerable margin.

*The guys from Tennessee Guns had a buyer get hoodwinked in Pakistan in the classic style, being shown a dusty container of pristine hardware, inluding rare early Lee-Speeds and cavalry carbines, way out in the sticks. Then it's back to town where he's pressured by the seller back in the hotel bar while being plied with illegal booze, all while the seller is taking phone calls from "other people" who are "oh, eager to buy, if you don't, they will buy now..." and then the container gets cracked open in the customs bonded warehouse stateside and it's all been replaced with Khyber copies.

Yes, do your research (look) before leaping on those. I have two real ones, both Faz, and one is downright minty and I will probably not shoot it. They are very cool, and a ton of fun, but fakes abound. All real No. 5s IIRC were made by BSA Shirley and Fazakerley, and will have lightening cuts as Tamara said. So a Lithgow No.5 is kinda like a Saginaw M1A1 "Paratrooper carbine" -- unpossible.

ffhounddog
08-25-2013, 12:58 AM
I sold my No5 Mk1 to a friend that was a real classic guy. I turned around and got a M1 Garand to replace it. (not at the same price but Jungle Carbine or Garand is hard to figure out) This one did not have a wandering zero but I did not shoot it as much as I wanted too.

TGS
10-30-2013, 01:23 PM
So in my obsession with anything C&R, I've been spending my free time in the past couple days reading about super-cheap, primitive, and/or last ditch firearms....things like the Sten, M3 Greasegun, or the Gustloff Volkssturmgewehr. I'm kinda wondering why there was never any development on gas-delayed blowback rifles past the Gustloff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5). This particular model certainly had its issues, which is natural given it's low quality control, hurried construction and lack of time/effort to further work out the kinks. Even still, the US Army assessed (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=135311) that it was reasonably reliable.

Seems like a solid concept for the low-cost end of the market......at least with small caliber/intermediate cartridge rifles.

Tamara
11-10-2013, 07:12 PM
Huge estate auction (http://www.auctionzip.com/Listings/1947938.html) coming up in Indy on December 1st. Highlights include:

Multiple FN-49s
Multiple MAS self-loaders, both 49/56's and straight-up 49s
Something like twenty+ Johnson M1941 rifles, which is more than I've ever seen in one place at one time.

Probably too rich for my blood, but if you wanted a Johnson to call your own, here's your chance... :D

sikacz
11-29-2013, 07:09 PM
My baby is a Finnish Mosin-Nagant M39, last assembly date 1968. Bolt indicates to be a New England Westinghouse probably from 1915 to around 1918. I've yet to take the receiver off to check dates on it, but it's a hex so it's pretty old. She's fun and gentle to shoot, just hug her tight!

Tamara
12-03-2013, 07:44 AM
Huge estate auction (http://www.auctionzip.com/Listings/1947938.html) coming up in Indy on December 1st. Highlights include:

Multiple FN-49s
Multiple MAS self-loaders, both 49/56's and straight-up 49s
Something like twenty+ Johnson M1941 rifles, which is more than I've ever seen in one place at one time.

Probably too rich for my blood, but if you wanted a Johnson to call your own, here's your chance... :D

That was a heck of an auction (http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2013/12/01/auction-for-slain-greenfield-mans-guns-attracts-1500/3797727/); I didn't go, but I've seen some footage...

Kyle Reese
10-10-2014, 04:13 PM
For 8mm fans, AIM Surplus is selling new production steel cased (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AHS8FMJ170&utm_source=AIM+Surplus+Main+List&utm_campaign=79c0d6d592-101014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6870497a6a-79c0d6d592-18142057) Romanian 7.92x57 for those hungry K98's and M48's out there.

jh9
10-11-2014, 11:18 AM
if you wanted a Johnson to call your own

PHRASING!

dbateman
10-12-2014, 03:49 AM
So a Lithgow No.5 is kinda like a Saginaw M1A1 "Paratrooper carbine" -- unpossible.

This, we never made No.5s there were some experimental guns made at Lithgow along the lines of the No5 but they never made it to production.
They are expensive.



This one did not have a wandering zero but I did not shoot it as much as I wanted too.


I think the wandering zero is a bit of a myth, I've owned a few No5s and still own two I have never encountered it.

That being said I have never used a No5 as a target rifle just a work rifle for shooting stuff out to say 200 yards or so.

Typically we would carry two rifles in our vehicles one open sight and one scoped for longer shots, 303 was always pretty popular given the availability of them over here.

dbateman
10-12-2014, 04:59 AM
Just to add to the above I have heard of Aussie made No1Mk111s being modded into some kind of jungle carbine thing by our boys in PNG, I haven't confirmed it but I have been told by a couple of people that it happened so I have no reason to doubt it. And having seen some other weapons "improved" I have no doubt that it happened on a limited basis.

TGS
03-25-2019, 01:05 PM
It's been far too long since we've conversed about awesome C&R stuff here.

For anyone interested, check out C&Rsenal (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClq1dvO44aNovUUy0SiSDOQ) on YouTube. They're creating a massive repository of history and shooting takeaways on firearms used in WWI, at this current time. It's phenomenal info. I ended up joining as a Patron, because I love the living history aspect of the show.

So, in other news.....

...anyone got any cool C&R pieces lately? I'm cleaning out my K31s in hopes of taking them out this week.

Jonesing for some FN-49s, otherwise.

mtnbkr
03-25-2019, 01:59 PM
...anyone got any cool C&R pieces lately? I'm cleaning out my K31s in hopes of taking them out this week.

Jonesing for some FN-49s, otherwise.


Just an FYI, anything made before 1969 is "C&R". That opens the doors for a lot of S&Ws, Colts, etc.

Chris

Salamander
05-05-2019, 01:14 AM
I'd been watching for a K31 for a while, almost drove several hours for one about six months ago but couldn't take the time away from the office just then. So, waited patiently.

Last weekend I walked into a local gun show, saw a friend from the gun club at a table on the far end, and there was a K31 sitting on his table (along with several other pretty cool C&R rifles). I had no idea that he owned one, apparently it had been sitting in the safe for years. Anyway he immediately knocked $100 off the price and it went home with me.

The story came out a bit later, according to his wife my buddy used to be a FFL, and every time he acquired a batch of C&R stuff he'd put the cleanest one in the safe and sell the rest. This K31 was one of those. Dates at 1950, beech stock. The bore is in shiny near-new condition. It does have the typical blueing wear on the back of the receiver, the wood has what's probably some surface dirt but fewer dings than I've ever seen on a K31.

Took it out this morning with some 7.5x55 reloads, PU brass and some 168 gr .308 that I had on the bench. Wow, what a great rifle. Pretty consistent 3-inch 100 yd groups with open sights and my no longer young eyes, and it was easy to hit steel almost every time at 300 yards. For sure more accurate than my K98 or M1903a3. We're currently brushing out the back slope at the gun club to get the old 600 yard distance functional again, and can't wait to try that. Maybe even order one of the clamp-on scope bases and see what this thing can do once I fine-tune a load.

Some of the other guys didn't get much shooting done today. Lot's of "what's that?" followed by lots of questions.

37822

entropy
05-05-2019, 07:16 AM
Nice! I picked up a G11 right after the Holidays. Between the length of the barrel, and the outstanding condition of the bore, it was pretty easy to do some pretty decent shooting with it...even with factory ammo. I ended up with brass and dies for it, simply because local ammo is pushing $35/box and the cheap GP11 is a thing of the past. If you search “Swiss Rifles” there is quite a bit of info out there and “Swiss Products” out of Kalispel, MT has a lot of goodies and good links on their site. I have a whole spread of 165gr and 175gr loads all set up to test...I just need the time. 37824