Practical Competition Shooting League (2023)

[RJ]

I first stumbled on PCSL in the USPSA Special Election thread in June, IIRC Les Pepperoni said it was an alternative he was looking at. JCN and YVK mentioned it as well in follow on posts, before the discussion got back to the run off.

At the time, there were no PCSL matches in Florida I could find. But I just checked Practiscore, and there is a one-gun match in Defuniak Springs (2 hours from our new place, a bit far for a single match, but still).

In case you weren’t aware:

https://www.pcsleague.com/

Founded by multi-time consecutive national champion Max Leograndis in 2021, the PCSL is a vision of what the world’s premiere practical shooting sport should be.

For those with competition shooting experience already, whether from Multigun, USPSA, IDPA, IPSC, or other events, PCSL will feel comfortably familiar but at the same time refreshing, exciting, and new. We’ve taken the best aspects from many disciplines of practical shooting and modernized them, creating the best match type yet. Events of every size - from the most humble club matches to the biggest championships - will be the best in class experiences you can find at any event.

Stoeger just dropped a video talking about how it might appeal to those looking for alternatives, so this was on my mind:

https://youtu.be/0lZVkzZH07A


Are any of you seeing PCSL get any traction here in 2023 at your local club?

[YVK]

Some activity at my local ranges but one that I don't care for. Guys are running PCSL Multigun matches and I have no interest in a shotgun. I would have definitely tried 1-gun or 2-gun.

[Zincwarrior]

so its more focus on head shots? Looks like Production and CO. What else is different?

[Flamingo]

Rule Book. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gPtMRH0s5qE1CrOyaScwB0ZC9pONJsyFVjX8wUrzGQI/edit#heading=h.t7uliy68q88k)

It seems like some of the recent USPSA drama with the ADs could have been avoided with some of PCSL rules.

[bofe954]

I like the pay for targets model to pay fees model.

I think a lot of people really like the classification system and would miss it.

The way 2/3 of the clubs I've been involved with work, the entire club is just a big pool of money. If the USPSA match makes more money, it just goes into the gun club's budget anyway. I'm not sure there is that much of an incentive to save the money that USPSA charges.

My guess is that they won't make enough to support the bureaucracy necessary to have big matches, but who knows.

[Zincwarrior]

Rule Book. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gPtMRH0s5qE1CrOyaScwB0ZC9pONJsyFVjX8wUrzGQI/edit#heading=h.t7uliy68q88k)

It seems like some of the recent USPSA drama with the ADs could have been avoided with some of PCSL rules.

Sorry, but like? I am not up on the latest AD drama except for one being DQ'd over switching pistols.

[JCN]

Are any of you seeing PCSL get any traction here in 2023 at your local club?

It’s starting to have more local events but I still haven’t checked it out yet.

The barriers to me are: USPSA is a known quantity across the nation like ECK said. I can travel 8 hours or 1 hour away and know I’ll get the same experience with people I know and like.

When we were doing national autocross, it was great, because we would travel across the nation and see our same friends at every big event. It made it feel very comfortable and enjoyable to have a community.

Right now, I don’t have the extra mental bandwidth to learn a new sport. Every shooting sport has its own set of skills to develop and techniques that require optimization. I like my local USPSA clubs and the nationwide universality and infrastructure are the big draws, despite administrative shenanigans.

So I think between USPSA, IDPA and Steel Challenge I’m pretty happy with my shooting sports.

I could potentially spend time and money on PCSL and the the end of five years if it goes belly up, it would’ve been somewhat of a waste of focus.

I might change my mind later on, but the people and community matter more to me than the actual competition sport itself. Right now I know the people in the community of USPSA and really like them. Again, just talking about the members and not the administration.

[ECK]

Where I live there’s a pretty robust shooting schedule between the three clubs in the valley. Every weekend there is some sort of match to shoot, including some weekdays from mid-April thru Sept. Some weekends you have to choose between IDPA vs PRS22 vs 3-gun, other weekends you have to choose between PRS vs USPSA or a Varmint rifle match vs USPSA vs 2-gun. Some of those matches are hosted by the same club on the same Saturday. Most of the time the different disciplines have their own niche of people who stick with that match, but there are some cross-overs that shoot multiple disciplines. As mentioned in another post, one club is offering an outlaw “action steel” format match for pistols that plays off their 3-gun format, only with just a pistol. Most of the attendees appear to be the ones that shoot the club’s 3-gun/2-gun matches, and has drawn very few USPSA shooters if any.

It’s a first world problem to have so many options…

But I think my point is the main USPSA clubs have tried hosting an outlaw match on 5th Saturday weekends, such as a CCW match where the emphasis is to compete with your actual EDC gun and gear. But invariably the demand from the shooters is for USPSA format matches. Not sure if it is because they are chasing a higher classification and want to shoot more USPSA classifier stages, or if it is because they just want the USPSA format and all that it entails. So I’m not seeing a demand for PCSL, at least not yet.

Not many people at the local club level give two sh!ts about what is going on with USPSA at the org level, tho quite a few of them have embraced the equipment changes including the provisional LO division. They just like shooting the 3-4 USPSA matches per month that are offered between the three clubs, shoot a few majors when we host either the Area or Section match, or drive a 4-6 hours to adjacent states to shoot their lvl 2 or the Area match. And ever since ammo started becoming available again we keep getting new shooters showing up at USPSA matches, many of whom are not new to shooting based on their timmy gear.

[JCS]

I hope it catches on. More shooting sports is good.

1 shot to the k zone makes it way different than uspsa and would take some adjusting. No PF is also interesting. I can see people gaming it big time.

I’d shoot one locally to try it out.

[MVS]

I heard the USPSA MD from the local club talking about trying it. Not sure if it was in addition to USPSA or dropping USPSA. I would try it if it is offered though nothing jumps out to me as a big improvement. No interested in the multi gun part. As for Stoeger talking about it, that doesn't really mean much as it is just a way for him to get his digs in at USPSA. (justified or not)

[Bergeron]

I would be happy to shoot a match, but I imagine it'll take a while before it gets to Louisiana. I have the local USPSA club-they're unlikely to change, there's a outlaw club a couple of hours away with some great people, there's an outlaw two-gun match about the same distance away in the opposite direction that I've shot before and will shoot again once it cools off a bit, and I'm starting to train for PRS/NRL- so while I'd welcome the opportunity to shoot a PCSL match, and I do think the timing is right for an experienced team to create a new action shooting sport, I feel like I'll probably have to wait a while to give it a try.

[Jim Watson]

The thing that concerns me about the "one shot to the K zone" is the likelihood that people will fire one shot then peer at the target to see if they hit the K. I have seen it happen, there is a local outlaw match requiring two A hits to neutralize and there is a lot of peering going on.

[Clusterfrack]

The thing that concerns me about the "one shot to the K zone" is the likelihood that people will fire one shot then peer at the target to see if they hit the K. I have seen it happen, there is a local outlaw match requiring two A hits to neutralize and there is a lot of peering going on.

They'll get over that habit if they want to win.

[DMF13]

The thing that concerns me about the "one shot to the K zone" is the likelihood that people will fire one shot then peer at the target to see if they hit the K. I have seen it happen, there is a local outlaw match requiring two A hits to neutralize and there is a lot of peering going on.Yeah, and some people listen/watch for steel, in USPSA. It's costs them time. The guys at the top of the pack know they have to call the shot and either move on, or shoot a make up, based on the sight(s). I am trying to call my shots 100% of the time, but like lots of stuff in shooting, "its simple, but not easy."

[JCN]

The thing that concerns me about the "one shot to the K zone" is the likelihood that people will fire one shot then peer at the target to see if they hit the K. I have seen it happen, there is a local outlaw match requiring two A hits to neutralize and there is a lot of peering going on.


They'll get over that habit if they want to win.

Agree. It’s the same thing as looking at IDPA targets to see if you’re -0 and taking make up shots after.

It only works if the competition is stinky.

[Jim Watson]

Right, but I am not talking about what We Experts do, I am talking about what John Q Public does and this is a setup that encourages it.

[WobblyPossum]

Right, but I am not talking about what We Experts do, I am talking about what John Q Public does and this is a setup that encourages it.

Again, how’s that different from the other games? If people can’t call their shots based on the sights and they want two A or -0 hits, they still have to look at the target. This doesn’t encourage the idea any more than USPSA or IDPA do.

[Jim Watson]

Again, how’s that different from the other games?

It is the difference between one and two shots.
John Q is going to be tempted to try for that one K and then look for it, losing the advantage of a one hit win; where he might be learning to fire twice at a USPSA or IDPA and move on.

GADPA had a complicated target with different areas and different numbers of hits that struck me the same way. I see they have gone back to IDPA, though.

[DMF13]

It is the difference between one and two shots.
John Q is going to be tempted to try for that one K and then look for it, losing the advantage of a one hit win; where he might be learning to fire twice at a USPSA or IDPA and move on.
.Sorry, but that makes no sense. The same person who would be tempted to look at the target, to ensure they got max points, will do it whether its one shot to a "K", two to an " A", or two to a "-0."

If you want them to "learn" something, they need to learn how to know if the shot is good as soon as it breaks, not "spray and pray" two, and drive on.

[JCN]

It is the difference between one and two shots.
John Q is going to be tempted to try for that one K and then look for it, losing the advantage of a one hit win; where he might be learning to fire twice at a USPSA or IDPA and move on.

GADPA had a complicated target with different areas and different numbers of hits that struck me the same way. I see they have gone back to IDPA, though.

Honestly that’s been the main reason I’ve stayed away from PCSL.

It’s a different programming from what I’m used to and it’s not necessarily based off what would actually happen so it winds up being a particular game specific method for me.

It would take a lot for me to switch. Regardless of leadership, I still really like the USPSA and IDPA products (and people).

I identify more with USPSA and IDPA than 3 gunners in general.

[Clusterfrack]

Honestly that’s been the main reason I’ve stayed away from PCSL.

It’s a different programming from what I’m used to and it’s not necessarily based off what would actually happen so it winds up being a particular game specific method for me.

It would take a lot for me to switch. Regardless of leadership, I still really like the USPSA and IDPA products (and people).

I identify more with USPSA and IDPA than 3 gunners in general.

Same. I shot 3Gun/Multigun fairly seriously for a couple years, but got sick of how much shotgun loading, and how long your tube is, affected the score. But I could have put up with that if it weren't for the TacBros playing loud music from boom boxes or trucks at each stage. One time it was so bad that I had to ask them to turn it off while I was shooting because I couldn't hear the RO. And... got a dirty look for my trouble.

Actually, I could have put up with the shotgun stupidity, and the TacBros. What really turned me off was time plus scoring with any 2 hits on paper. It encouraged bad shooting. Sure, rifle plates and knock-down steel require skill. But squirting bullets at a full size IPSC at 5yds was just too lame for me.

I'd like to try PCSL because of the 2-gun aspect, and hit factor scoring. The targets look good. The rules look good.

[ECK]

I'd like to try PCSL because of the 2-gun aspect, and hit factor scoring. The targets look good. The rules look good.

I agree, a quick perusal of the PCSL rulebook suggests to me that Max L. did a pretty good job of establishing a ruleset. From a match officiating standpoint, having a written ruleset is paramount. Not having one leaves it way too open for issues and arguments that don’t do anything but generate bad feelings between competitors and staff. So I commend Max for taking the effort.

I’ve also heard his 2-gun matches in SGU are worth the trip.

[bofe954]

I kind of like the K zone just because you could use it to manipulate round count on a stage. I think I'd still just be shooting 2 most of the time.

Not sure about-

"If falling steel no-shoot is impacted but does not fall, no penalty is assigned."

I don't see a lot of no-shoot steel anyway outside a few classifiers, but it seems like you'd have to calibrate no shoot steel which seems like a hassle.


Not sure I understand -
"Falling steel and frangible no-shoots must fall or be broken by gunfire in order to score. If another target or prop knocks them over or breaks them rather than a projectile fired by a competitor, they will not earn any penalty."

I didn't see any range equipment failure rules, so do I get a score or not when the wind blows over a popper? I see I don't get penalized, am I just out 5 points?

I didn't see a required power factor anywhere, or a popper calibration. What if I show up to a match and my ammo just doesn't knock down steel?

[RJ]

It hadn't dawned on me about the "K-zone" concept, whereby you can neutralize the target (i.e. get 10 points) with one shot. Not being that familiar with the K-zone target, I decided to use the rulebook and sketch one out in my drawing tool to see how hard it would be to shoot. I appreciate this is normally all cardboard, and what I have is a brown blob on a white background, but it's just a mockup. Going to give this a try at my next range session.

Still looking for local options in my area (Central FL) for PCSL matches, but not actively. We are about a month away from closing on our new place in Ocala but after that I'll be seeing what options I have in driving distance.

109391

[DacoRoman]

A buddy invited me last minute to do a PCSL - 1 gun (pistol) match this Thursday.

This will be my first time.

I’ve only done two USPSA matches and shot both from aiwb using a G17.5 w a 508T and surefire 300, using 21 rnd magazines.

Can I shoot this same rig in PCSL? I signed up for Practical Optic.

[Kirk]

A buddy invited me last minute to do a PCSL - 1 gun (pistol) match this Thursday.

This will be my first time.

I’ve only done two USPSA matches and shot both from aiwb using a G17.5 w a 508T and surefire 300, using 21 rnd magazines.

Can I shoot this same rig in PCSL? I signed up for Practical Optic.

I’m curious about this as well. I plan to go back to USPSA and try out PCSL when I move back to the south, but I want to run my actual carry gear. Obviously USPSA is good to go but the PCSL rule book seems pretty vague on this issue. I might message Max on IG and ask him so I have clarification.

Rulebook:

https://www.pcsleague.us/

Edit: just realized this post was from January 🤦*♂️My bad. What did you find out?

[Noah]

I’m curious about this as well. I plan to go back to USPSA and try out PCSL when I move back to the south, but I want to run my actual carry gear. Obviously USPSA is good to go but the PCSL rule book seems pretty vague on this issue. I might message Max on IG and ask him so I have clarification.

Rulebook:

https://www.pcsleague.us/

Edit: just realized this post was from January 🤦*♂️My bad. What did you find out?

I am 99% sure that setup is 100% legal. PCSL is supposed to be simpler and more open than USPSA

[NETim]

I will using the PCSL target in some of my matches this coming year. This Saturday as a matter of fact. I don't see a perf line at the neck line, so it appears to me anyway that the "A" zone extends up into the head outside of the "K" zone.

I will draw a line across the neck line to reduce the "A" zone. The area outside the "K" zone with be a "C" zone.

Sometimes I am referred to as an evil MD. Don't know where that comes from.

[Kirk]

I am 99% sure that setup is 100% legal. PCSL is supposed to be simpler and more open than USPSA

Yep, you’re definitely right. I messaged Max today on IG and he confirmed it.