Berettas have "slow barrels"

[Irfan]

We know that Beretta pistols have somewhat "slower" barrels compared to other pistols. The reason for this seems to be the larger/wider internal dimensions of the pipe. Has anyone measured the muzzle velocities of other popular pistols such as the G17, G19, CZ-75, P226 and so on, compared to the Beretta 92FS? Does anyone have the measurement results? Also, does the Beretta M9A3 or M9A4 have a higher muzzle velocity since it has a longer barrel?

[PNWTO]

I’ve never heard this before but I’m frequently not at the big kid’s table.

Is the assertion it’s a good deal of MV loss? Let’s make up a number and say… 50+ FPS?

I’m not sure it matters, either. My personal Beretta-fangirling aside, they are still widely seen as great shooters; even by those without an affinity for TDA.

[revchuck38]

Here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29892-Velocities-of-Some-9x19-124-Grain-Training-Ammo) is a thread I started about five years ago comparing velocities of 9x19 124-grain training ammo. Most of it was shot with my CZ-75B, but as I added PX4s and P99Cs I re-did a couple of rounds. I no longer have a B92 or I would've used it.

I do remember that my B92 needed .357 cast bullets to run without leading and that this was common with other B92s. My PX4s are happy with .356 bullets, so there may be an intentional difference in specs due to the B92's use as a military pistol.

[Noah]

I actually had the same experience with a 4.7" 92X full size chronoing the same as a G19.

[e_stern]

We know that Beretta pistols have somewhat "slower" barrels compared to other pistols. The reason for this seems to be the larger/wider internal dimensions of the pipe. Has anyone measured the muzzle velocities of other popular pistols such as the G17, G19, CZ-75, P226 and so on, compared to the Beretta 92FS? Does anyone have the measurement results? Also, does the Beretta M9A3 or M9A4 have a higher muzzle velocity since it has a longer barrel?

What are you talking about?

Standard Beretta 9MM twist rate is 1 in 250MM. EXACTLY the same as a G17/G19.

[Jim Watson]

Beretta bore and groove DIAMETER tends to run large.
SAAMI nominal groove diameter is .355" but with a plus only tolerance of .004" so anything up to .359" is acceptable and I have read of Berettas crowding that.

[Hambo]

What are you talking about?

Standard Beretta 9MM twist rate is 1 in 250MM. EXACTLY the same as a G17/G19.

Just the facts...:cool:;)


I'm sure a friend and did some chrono work before we switched to Berettas for competition. If there was a difference it wasn't significant enough to remember.

[jetfire]

What are you talking about?

Standard Beretta 9MM twist rate is 1 in 250MM. EXACTLY the same as a G17/G19.

He’s talking some common reloaded nonsense about how some guns have a slower MV with the same load because their barrels are “slower”

[medmo]

Makes me sad seeing slow barrels….

[PNWTO]

Has anyone tried speaking to the machine-spirit… in Italian?

108390

Since this is the technical side of the house- I did some Google-Fu and the best I can take away is that this issue is about as relevant as Glocks shooting left; and funny it didn’t seem to happen with factory loads.. Observed? Kind of. Meaningful? Not really.

[e_stern]

He’s talking some common reloaded nonsense about how some guns have a slower MV with the same load because their barrels are “slower”

Yea... I don't think I ever recreated that over a Chrono when I worked at Pasta HQ... Everything was within what I expected for MV....

Of course, we didn't screw with reloaded ammo ever so....

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

Muzzle velocity is also affected by the amount of time and pressure by which the barrel is locked together with the breech face in the slide as the gases complete pressure.

As an added note, the rotating barrel system of the PX4 keeps the slide and barrel locked together for a longer time and movement than standard actions.

[Guerrero]

Muzzle velocity is also affected by the amount of time and pressure by which the barrel is locked together with the breech face in the slide as the gases complete pressure.

As an added note, the rotating barrel system of the PX4 keeps the slide and barrel locked together for a longer time and movement than standard actions.

So, theoretically, a PX4 would result in *higher* MV's, all other things being equal (as if we could make that comparison)?

[Rock185]

I don't recall chronographing 9mm Beretta velocities, but like it or not, Beretta barrels may be "slower". I've tested a bunch of factory and handloaded ammo in a variety of other 9mm pistols and revolvers. Yes, some barrels tend to be faster or slower. For instance, chronographing 9mm in SIG P226s and Glock 17s with similar length barrels. The Glocks are routinely faster, no matter the bullet weight, or standard pressure, +P, +P+, etc. The SIG P210 4.7" barrels tend to be just the opposite, i.e., faster. This, whether of Swiss, German or American manufacture, all tend to be faster than than "most" of my 5" 9mm 1911 barrels. I say most, because one 1911 Barsto 5" barrel was faster than the P210 SIG barrels. I have a S&W semi-auto with 3.5" barrel that almost always produces higher velocities than a similar S&W with 4" barrel. Thing is, everything matters, not just barrel length, twist rate, etc. No two manufactured items are exactly the same. Minute internal differences in barrels, like chamber dimensions, rifling leades, bore and groove diameters, internal finish, you name it, make a difference. This, even with same length barrels by the same manufacturer. Interesting stuff in any case, IMHO..

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

So, theoretically, a PX4 would result in *higher* MV's, all other things being equal (as if we could make that comparison)?

Yes, and we add to that the lack of tilting that occurs as the gases and the bullet have left and are still pushing back a little.

[TiroFijo]

Muzzle velocity is also affected by the amount of time and pressure by which the barrel is locked together with the breech face in the slide as the gases complete pressure.

As an added note, the rotating barrel system of the PX4 keeps the slide and barrel locked together for a longer time and movement than standard actions.

In ALL locked breech recoil operaded pistols the barrel and slide remain together before bullet exit, and the barrel axis is thus still aligned with the base of the bullet... ;)

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

In ALL locked breech recoil operaded pistols the barrel and slide remain together before bullet exit, and the barrel axis is thus still aligned with the base of the bullet... ;)


"...and we add to that the lack of tilting that occurs as the gases and the bullet have left and are still pushing back a little."

[TiroFijo]

Please.... :rolleyes:

[medmo]

In ALL locked breech recoil operaded pistols the barrel and slide remain together before bullet exit, and the barrel axis is thus still aligned with the base of the bullet... ;)

What about S&W M&P 9mms? Isn't there a situation where the breech opens premature causing reduced accuracy? Isn't that the reason why Apex Tactical bbls are more accurate?

[Spartan1980]

What about S&W M&P 9mms? Isn't there a situation where the breech opens premature causing reduced accuracy? Isn't that the reason why Apex Tactical bbls are more accurate?

That's the theory I've heard. I've always been skeptical and have always thought it's just tighter lockup and better fitting of the properly fitted Apex barrel and slide locking points. I've got multiple M&Ps of both generations. They do seem to unlock early compared to almost anything else, but the barrel does remain locked to the slide for what would seem plenty long enough for the bullet to have left the barrel. I even have one of the very early M&P 1.0 Pros with it's 5" barrel which were reportedly one of the worst. Bullseye guns they are not, but I don't think it's unlock timing inconsistencies being the culprit.

My 2.0 Compact is pretty accurate. To the point I'm not doing an Apex barrel for the foreseeable future. This target is at 15-18'ish yards. Ignore the ones out of the 10 ring, I was dialing in my RDO.

108409

[medmo]

That's the theory I've heard. I've always been skeptical and have always thought it's just tighter lockup and better fitting of the properly fitted Apex barrel and slide locking points. I've got multiple M&Ps of both generations. They do seem to unlock early compared to almost anything else, but the barrel does remain locked to the slide for what would seem plenty long enough for the bullet to have left the barrel. I even have one of the very early M&P 1.0 Pros with it's 5" barrel which were reportedly one of the worst. Bullseye guns they are not, but I don't think it's unlock timing inconsistencies being the culprit.

My 2.0 Compact is pretty accurate. To the point I'm not doing an Apex barrel for the foreseeable future. This target is at 15-18'ish yards. Ignore the ones out of the 10 ring, I was dialing in my RDO.

108409

The 2.0 Compact 4" M&P Apexed triggered 9mm I have is the winner for the Dicken's Drill, with my batch of 9mm compacts so no complaints from me on it's accuracy. I've read that SOME of the dims on SOME of the M&P bbls allow for breach unlocking movement prior to bullets achieving exit causing accuracy problems. That is where Apex came in with their custom fit bbls. I was just questioning, as a student of the pistol:

"In ALL locked breech recoil operaded pistols the barrel and slide remain together before bullet exit."

I'm not certain on that one.

[That Guy]

Yes, some barrels tend to be faster or slower. For instance, chronographing 9mm in SIG P226s and Glock 17s with similar length barrels. The Glocks are routinely faster

Wouldn't that be due to Glocks using polygonal rifling while Sig uses standard rifling?

[Gumby]

Wouldn't that be due to Glocks using polygonal rifling while Sig uses standard rifling?

That's what I've been told.

[CSW]

We know that Beretta pistols have somewhat "slower" barrels compared to other pistols. The reason for this seems to be the larger/wider internal dimensions of the pipe. Has anyone measured the muzzle velocities of other popular pistols such as the G17, G19, CZ-75, P226 and so on, compared to the Beretta 92FS? Does anyone have the measurement results? Also, does the Beretta M9A3 or M9A4 have a higher muzzle velocity since it has a longer barrel?


This is absolutely brilliant!

I've got a perfect reason for my match scores now.
Justified suck, due to slower MV. I knew all along it wasn't me, it was the gun.

[fatdog]

revchuck38 thanks for linking your chrono data on the PX4

One question in my mind about the PX4 compact and that short 3.27" barrel is if they are getting enough/acceptable velocity for good JHP ammo to do its work consistently. The same questions linger in my mind over other brands of 3" barrel micro 9's. But I don't have one to chrono and see what it really is doing.

[revchuck38]

One question in my mind about the PX4 compact and that short 3.27" barrel is if they are getting enough/acceptable velocity for good JHP ammo to do its work consistently. The same questions linger in my mind over other brands of 3" barrel micro 9's. But I don't have one to chrono and see what it really is doing.

There are at least two ways around this concern. The one I've chosen is to use 124-grain +P ammo, which bumps up the velocity to around standard velocity ammo from a 4". Another is to run 147-grain ammo, which DocGKR has posited loses less performance from shorter-barreled guns.

[CraigS]

Who is the 'We' in the 'We know that......'?

[Jim Watson]

He’s talking some common reloaded nonsense about how some guns have a slower MV with the same load because their barrels are “slower”

Unfortunately not involving a Beretta, but my experience with third party testing did show barrel differences.
I waltzed into an IDPA Regional with my Sig P226 4.4" SSP and the Minor reloaded ammo I had been using in my Colt 1991A1 5" ESP. Failed at the chronograph. Well, duh, that 0.6" of barrel was the difference by about 35 fps, right?

But wait! This was back when IDPA Power Floor was based on the longest barrel in the Division, not the competitor's gun. Oh, oh, all the chronoman had was a Colt Combat Commander, 4.25". But my ammo still made Minor in his gun.

To summarize, Colt 5" OK, Colt 4.25" OK, Sig 4.4" Fail. Slower barrel? If not, what?

[revchuck38]

Unfortunately not involving a Beretta, but my experience with third party testing did show barrel differences.
I waltzed into an IDPA Regional with my Sig P226 4.4" SSP and the Minor reloaded ammo I had been using in my Colt 1991A1 5" ESP. Failed at the chronograph. Well, duh, that 0.6" of barrel was the difference by about 35 fps, right?

But wait! This was back when IDPA Power Floor was based on the longest barrel in the Division, not the competitor's gun. Oh, oh, all the chronoman had was a Colt Combat Commander, 4.25". But my ammo still made Minor in his gun.

To summarize, Colt 5" OK, Colt 4.25" OK, Sig 4.4" Fail. Slower barrel? If not, what?

<thread drift>

I always loaded my SSR ammo to a 135 PF (yeah, it's been a while since I shot IDPA) to avoid this. My ammo usually got chronoed from my gun anyway, since who shoots revolvers anymore? :cool:

</thread drift>

[TiroFijo]

The 2.0 Compact 4" M&P Apexed triggered 9mm I have is the winner for the Dicken's Drill, with my batch of 9mm compacts so no complaints from me on it's accuracy. I've read that SOME of the dims on SOME of the M&P bbls allow for breach unlocking movement prior to bullets achieving exit causing accuracy problems. That is where Apex came in with their custom fit bbls. I was just questioning, as a student of the pistol:

"In ALL locked breech recoil operaded pistols the barrel and slide remain together before bullet exit."

I'm not certain on that one.

Unless somebody at S&W is watching TV and not their high speed films, they should be fine. The factors governing this timing (mass relationship of moving parts, geometry of locking lugs, springs, etc.) have been well known and understood for more than a century.

Every maker can turn a lemon, but it is rare.

[Jim Watson]

As best I comprehend Randy Lee, the Apex 1.0 barrel has a 10 twist not to stabilize a bullet that does fine at 32, but to torque the barrel into a binding lockup for a noonoosecond.
"These barrels feature a 1:10” twist rate along with Apex’s proprietary, patented locking geometry."

Well, Mr Searle told Savage it would work, back about 1907. But that was all the Savage had.

[TiroFijo]

As best I comprehend Randy Lee, the Apex 1.0 barrel has a 10 twist not to stabilize a bullet that does fine at 32, but to torque the barrel into a binding lockup for a noonoosecond.
"These barrels feature a 1:10” twist rate along with Apex’s proprietary, patented locking geometry."

Well, Mr Searle told Savage it would work, back about 1907. But that was all the Savage had.

That's a bold claim, to say the least...

[MattyD380]

Doesn't the depth of the rifling grooves affect how much pressure/velocity the barrel builds? The VP70, for instance, has bizarrely deep rifling which lets gas pressure escape so it doesn’t need a breech lock. If that’s true, one might surmise that shallower rifling would create a tighter seal and greater pressure/velocity. Maybe the Berettas have slightly deeper rifling?

Though I suppose that could be the same as saying greater bore diameter.

[revchuck38]

The original Super Vel .38 Special ammo was loaded with .355" bullets to reduce friction within the bore to help attain the high velocities it was known for. The larger groove diameter would argue for faster velocities rather than slower.

When the weather cools off enough that I don't pre-load my magazines at home so I can get out of there before the heat index hits the triple digits, I need to take all three of my PX4s to the range to see how much variation there is among them. I'll take the G45 too to see if the new barrel design reduced the traditional Glock fast velocities.

[Bucky]

I’ve got a lot a chrono data for various guns with a bit of Beretta data. From what I recall, Beretta numbers were slower on average. One interesting tidbit I do remember was it varied based on the load. The big anomaly was in the powders. For example, the difference between a Tite Group powder load was a 1 power factor difference between a G34 and E2 (with the Glock being higher). With N320, that gap increased to over a 3 power factor difference.

Next time I’m in the shop, if I remember, I’ll grab some numbers.

[spence]

I did a whole bunch of chrono data a couple years ago. Thinking in the vein of Buffman Range. It was insightful because a 4” Springfield barrel generally netted higher velocity than the 4.3” 92 barrel and on par with the 4.9” 92 barrel. All I had for 3” was a Kel Tec and it ran higher than the PX4 compact. Link for anyone who’s interested.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v1oSvDrXJIKPTUBSiALexa-ZLr_i-vzlKlr-HRLfD-w/edit

[CraigS]

Notice the Op is gone. Same crap on beretta forum. Guys quit this!

[spence]

Notice the Op is gone. Same crap on beretta forum. Guys quit this!

I haven’t been on here or BF in months. That is the one thing I noticed, though. And I think it was somebody here stated they’d slugged multiple Beretta barrels and they were slightly oversized compared to others.

[No.6]

Notice the Op is gone. Same crap on beretta forum. Guys quit this!

Glocktalk also.