The pitfalls of semi-automatic shotguns in the hands of "casual" users...

[TCinVA]

https://youtu.be/FQy1h5mC5nY

I am a big fan of the Beretta 1301T as a defensive shotgun. I own two and will likely own more in the future. Most of my friends own one. Many of my clients have bought one based on seeing them in action in class.

I get shotgun questions all the time (naturally) and one I see frequently is why anyone would go with a pump gun over a semi-auto given the benefits that the best semi-auto shotguns offer. I believe we see the biggest issue I point to towards the end of the above video.

Especially in guns with shell cutoffs, getting a semi-automatic into action from a stored ready condition can be significantly more difficult than a pump gun. With a pump we train running the action to make the gun fire every time we shoot. CHUNK-CHUNK-BOOM is easy for our caveman brain to remember, especially as we have to work the action every time we press the trigger to get it to shoot again. We're literally training the action necessary to get the gun into action every time we fire multiple shots.

I see the complications of semi-auto shotguns...especially those with shell cutoffs...bite people in class on a regular basis. This is especially true during the first few exercises of the day for folks who haven't practiced with their shotgun recently. I most often see folks running the bolt on a gun like the M4 or the 1301 without hitting the shell release first, resulting in running the bolt multiple times to no avail. Or they run the bolt, press the trigger, get nothing, then run the bolt again and only then get a round to feed.

I'm going to quote from user AMC in the LE UOF thread:



Most common error in manipulation with our guys using semiautomatic Beretta shotguns was failing to hit the shell release button. They'd just continue to run the bolt, never figuring out why the gun wouldn't fire.




No. Patrol ready was full tube, empty chamber, safety on. Procedure was: shell carrier release, run the bolt, safety off when actually firing.

The problem was a complete and total lack of sustainment training. Five rounds at 10 yards once a year, with no accountability for hits or any skill at manipulation does not constitute 'training'. It's why most officers didn't even bother to take a shotgun on patrol. They were afraid of the thing.


I encourage folks to store their 1301 with a shell on the lifter so that they can just run the bolt and get the gun into action. But if someone is stuck with an LE policy that requires a full tube, empty chamber, nothing on the lifter, and safety on it's going to take a lot of training and (most crucially) sustainment to develop getting the gun charged and ready to shoot automatically when they are under stress.

If someone isn't willing or able to do that level of work, or if they just know they're not touching the shotgun unless they need it, then this more "casual" (for lack of a better term) user would likely be better off with a pump gun.

[HarryB]

I keep my bedroom 1301 chamber empty and one on the lifter. So if awakened in the middle of the night, the bolt handle is a lot easier to find (and remember) if I need to respond to a threat. I'm not a LEO nor operator--just a well armed citizen.

[GearFondler]

TCinVA, with the 1301 in particular, when set up empty chamber/one on the lifter, does it matter long term if the hammer is left cocked?
I know it makes it a bit harder to cycle the bolt after the hammer has dropped but it's not a problem for me. But I do hate the idea of the hammer staying cocked indefinitely... But I also hate pulling the trigger to drop that hammer after I load the lifter. I pull the bolt back at least twice to verify the chamber really is empty but it still feels wrong to do it.
Anyway, mine is 7 in the tube, 1 on the lifter, hammer dropped, safety off.
If I need it I can run the bolt then engage the safety if not immediately needed.

[TCinVA]

@TCinVA (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=4), with the 1301 in particular, when set up empty chamber/one on the lifter, does it matter long term if the hammer is left cocked?

I haven't seen any indication that it's going to cause any sort of problem. The 1301's trigger has the sear on it:

108392
...sorta kinda in the same ballpark as the AR15's trigger group. I don't know of any long term issues with the AR being stored in a cocked state, and in the time the 1301 has been out I don't know of anyone who has encountered a problem resulting from having the gun stored with the hammer cocked.



I know it makes it a bit harder to cycle the bolt after the hammer has dropped but it's not a problem for me. But I do hate the idea of the hammer staying cocked indefinitely... But I also hate pulling the trigger to drop that hammer after I load the lifter. I pull the bolt back at least twice to verify the chamber really is empty but it still feels wrong to do it.


The reason I store an 870 with the hammer down on a closed bolt is because I don't want to have to fool with the action lock to get the gun into action. A lot of police departments mandate that the action be locked as a part of their setup procedure and it's not uncommon to see officers struggling to get the gun into action. I'm trying to avoid that for clients.

My teaching to them...and it's documented on video...is to ensure there are absolutely no shells in the gun *period* when they press the trigger without intending to fire a shot.

My advice on the 1301 would be exactly the same. I do not want to press the trigger on a 1301 that has live ammunition in it unless I intend to send a payload into something...because sooner or later it will get messed up and that's exactly what will happen.

It feels wrong to do it because you're pressing the trigger on a loaded gun and hoping it doesn't fire. That feeling of discomfort is your brain telling you this is a bad idea. So don't do it. Even if leaving the hammer cocked killed the hammer spring...which we have absolutely no indication is the case...I'd much rather replace one every now and then than set myself up to send a load of buckshot somewhere in the house.

[GearFondler]

I haven't seen any indication that it's going to cause any sort of problem. The 1301's trigger has the sear on it:

108392
...sorta kinda in the same ballpark as the AR15's trigger group. I don't know of any long term issues with the AR being stored in a cocked state, and in the time the 1301 has been out I don't know of anyone who has encountered a problem resulting from having the gun stored with the hammer cocked.



The reason I store an 870 with the hammer down on a closed bolt is because I don't want to have to fool with the action lock to get the gun into action. A lot of police departments mandate that the action be locked as a part of their setup procedure and it's not uncommon to see officers struggling to get the gun into action. I'm trying to avoid that for clients.

My teaching to them...and it's documented on video...is to ensure there are absolutely no shells in the gun *period* when they press the trigger without intending to fire a shot.

My advice on the 1301 would be exactly the same. I do not want to press the trigger on a 1301 that has live ammunition in it unless I intend to send a payload into something...because sooner or later it will get messed up and that's exactly what will happen.

It feels wrong to do it because you're pressing the trigger on a loaded gun and hoping it doesn't fire. That feeling of discomfort is your brain telling you this is a bad idea. So don't do it. Even if leaving the hammer cocked killed the hammer spring...which we have absolutely no indication is the case...I'd much rather replace one every now and then than set myself up to send a load of buckshot somewhere in the house.Thanks for the education and advice.... And even better, I'll now follow it. Thanks again.

[Navin Johnson]

TCinVA, with the 1301 in particular, when set up empty chamber/one on the lifter, does it matter long term if the hammer is left cocked?
I know it makes it a bit harder to cycle the bolt after the hammer has dropped but it's not a problem for me. But I do hate the idea of the hammer staying cocked indefinitely... But I also hate pulling the trigger to drop that hammer after I load the lifter. I pull the bolt back at least twice to verify the chamber really is empty but it still feels wrong to do it.
Anyway, mine is 7 in the tube, 1 on the lifter, hammer dropped, safety off.
If I need it I can run the bolt then engage the safety if not immediately needed.

Properly designed springs made of appropriate material for the application "wear out" do to cycles (not compression or extension) as long as they are operating within design parameters.

This goes for magazine springs also.

[Borderland]

Do LE agencies carry their shotguns in condition 1, or a round in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety on. just asking because IDK.

Anyway, that seems to be a receipt for disaster given that smaller agencies probably won't get the training they need to operate an autoloader safely.

[WobblyPossum]

Do LE agencies carry their shotguns in condition 1, or a round in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety on. just asking because IDK.

Anyway, that seems to be a receipt for disaster given that smaller agencies probably won't get the training they need to operate an autoloader safely.

Not in my experience. Guns in patrol car rifle/shotgun racks are generally kept with empty chambers. Same with guns stored in the trunk or cargo area. Long guns generally only get chambered when it’s time to use them. If the long gun isn’t in an officer’s/agent’s hands it generally has an empty chamber primarily because the majority of long guns aren’t drop safe and a vehicle collision could cause one to fire.

[penates]

Do LE agencies carry their shotguns in condition 1, or a round in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety on. just asking because IDK.

Anyway, that seems to be a receipt for disaster given that smaller agencies probably won't get the training they need to operate an autoloader safely.

Most agencies carry in cruiser ready for pump guns, empty chamber and safety off, just rack and go.

[lwt16]

Most agencies carry in cruiser ready for pump guns, empty chamber and safety off, just rack and go.

This.

I was one of the few still rocking a scattergun once they handed out patrol rifles.

Safety off, empty chamber, hammer down, full mag tube of 00 buck.

Hit the gun release, grab shotgun, rack a round, engage safety (if necessary) and top off mag tube (if time allowed).

[Centerfire]

https://youtu.be/FQy1h5mC5nY

I am a big fan of the Beretta 1301T as a defensive shotgun. I own two and will likely own more in the future. Most of my friends own one. Many of my clients have bought one based on seeing them in action in class.

I get shotgun questions all the time (naturally) and one I see frequently is why anyone would go with a pump gun over a semi-auto given the benefits that the best semi-auto shotguns offer. I believe we see the biggest issue I point to towards the end of the above video.

Especially in guns with shell cutoffs, getting a semi-automatic into action from a stored ready condition can be significantly more difficult than a pump gun. With a pump we train running the action to make the gun fire every time we shoot. CHUNK-CHUNK-BOOM is easy for our caveman brain to remember, especially as we have to work the action every time we press the trigger to get it to shoot again. We're literally training the action necessary to get the gun into action every time we fire multiple shots.

I see the complications of semi-auto shotguns...especially those with shell cutoffs...bite people in class on a regular basis. This is especially true during the first few exercises of the day for folks who haven't practiced with their shotgun recently. I most often see folks running the bolt on a gun like the M4 or the 1301 without hitting the shell release first, resulting in running the bolt multiple times to no avail. Or they run the bolt, press the trigger, get nothing, then run the bolt again and only then get a round to feed.

I'm going to quote from user AMC in the LE UOF thread:





I encourage folks to store their 1301 with a shell on the lifter so that they can just run the bolt and get the gun into action. But if someone is stuck with an LE policy that requires a full tube, empty chamber, nothing on the lifter, and safety on it's going to take a lot of training and (most crucially) sustainment to develop getting the gun charged and ready to shoot automatically when they are under stress.

If someone isn't willing or able to do that level of work, or if they just know they're not touching the shotgun unless they need it, then this more "casual" (for lack of a better term) user would likely be better off with a pump gun.

I posted that video in the 1301 thread when it came out. Officer Friendly doesn't practice. I can tell if he even pulled the bolt before dryfiring the gun.

[DDTSGM]

I posted that video in the 1301 thread when it came out. Officer Friendly doesn't practice. I can tell if he even pulled the bolt before dryfiring the gun.

That is why I think something like the Hornady Rapid Racks or the SAF-T-ROUNDs might be a good idea for long arms carried with empty chambers - gives you or your partner a visible clue you haven't chambered a round.

108468

https://www.safrgun.com/shotgun

https://www.safrgun.com/rifle

One thing about the SAF-T-ROUND is that it can be attached to a tether or a retractable tether. I'm not so sure that is a great idea as I've never play around with their retractable tether. In any event both the SAF-T-ROUND and the Rapid-Rack are easy to find after they are ejected - unless in brush or high weeds.

https://www.safrgun.com/accessories/retention-strap

Here's a picture of the 12 Ga Rapid Rack, I'm not sure it's made any longer. I know they still make the AR one in both 5.56 and 7.62.

108469

[RevolverRob]

That is why I think something like the Hornady Rapid Racks or the SAF-T-ROUNDs might be a good idea for long arms carried with empty chambers - gives you or your partner a visible clue you haven't chambered a round.

108468

https://www.safrgun.com/shotgun

https://www.safrgun.com/rifle

One thing about the SAF-T-ROUND is that it can be attached to a tether or a retractable tether. I'm not so sure that is a great idea as I've never play around with their retractable tether. In any event both the SAF-T-ROUND and the Rapid-Rack are easy to find after they are ejected - unless in brush or high weeds.

https://www.safrgun.com/accessories/retention-strap

Here's a picture of the 12 Ga Rapid Rack, I'm not sure it's made any longer. I know they still make the AR one in both 5.56 and 7.62.

108469

Actually really liking the idea for a pump gun. The "flag" won't let you close the slide all the way. You would not have to worry about dropping the hammer to prevent the action release from activating in this way. You would just pick up the gun and run the action.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Most agencies carry in cruiser ready for pump guns, empty chamber and safety off, just rack and go.

I carried my shotguns chamber empty, hammer cocked, and safety on. "Just rack and go" doesn't just apply to the assigned user. If someone stole a long gun out of a unit, I wanted them to have to do a little more than "rack and go" to be able to put it into play. Also, having the slide unlocked, that action can rattle open on it's own. Admittedly, most pump-gun locking racks would've prevented this.

[Clusterfrack]

That is why I think something like the Hornady Rapid Racks or the SAF-T-ROUNDs might be a good idea for long arms carried with empty chambers - gives you or your partner a visible clue you haven't chambered a round.



...I do not want to press the trigger on a 1301 that has live ammunition in it unless I intend to send a payload into something...because sooner or later it will get messed up and that's exactly what will happen.

What about putting a brightly colored dummy round into the chamber and dropping the hammer? Would that address the concern about storing an auto loaded with hammer down?

108520

[Noah]

What about putting a brightly colored dummy round into the chamber and dropping the hammer? Would that address the concern about storing an auto loaded with hammer down?

108520

Reminds me of when my twin brother and I were 16, and had an SKS loaded with 9 rounds in the internal mag and an orange plastic dummy in the chamber as a way to store an SKS loaded but chamber empty....

[TCinVA]

What about putting a brightly colored dummy round into the chamber and dropping the hammer? Would that address the concern about storing an auto loaded with hammer down?

108520

You could certainly do that, but there again you'd be pressing the trigger on a gun that had live rounds in it.

If one is extremely careful you can press the trigger on a 1301 that only has shells in the magazine and not cause the gun to fire...but I don't even trust myself to be that flawlessly careful every single time I set the gun back up for home defense after I've taught with it.

My SOP isn't the only way to go. On the plus side, though, if someone follows my SOP and never presses the trigger on a shotgun that has shells in it unless they intend to send a payload they'll never blow a hole in anyone or anything they don't intend to when setting the gun up for home defense. I see folks get confused on order of operations so often with cut-off equipped semi's that I err way the fuck over here on the side of caution when handing out advice.

[RevolverRob]

What about putting a brightly colored dummy round into the chamber and dropping the hammer? Would that address the concern about storing an auto loaded with hammer down?

108520

That could work but my concern with the A-Zooms and the like is I have seen enough of them fail to eject from shotguns that I get a little hesitant to recommend it.

Probably the easiest solution is to train to hit the shell cut-off any time the bolt is forward and you aren't actively shooting. That might mean you have to rack the bolt a couple of times to clear the action, before unloading the tube or going to a slug select, but IMO that beats coming up with a dead gun when you need a live gun.

[shootist26]

While we're on the theme of not being able to get a shotgun into operation, here's a video of an officer struggling with an 870 less lethal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8waKMUKDtk

At 2:58, he tries and fails to get a round into the chamber. At first, I thought he did what most people do and forgot to hit the action lock button, but it seems like he is using his left hand thumb to push it in. He's clearly trying to rack the pump but it isn't budging. This 870 also looks like it doesn't have a flexi tab lifter. I wonder if a shell was stuck between the lifter and the bolt.

[Navin Johnson]

If there is still an ill founded concern about a hammer spring wearing out one would probably be better with an 870.

As clearly articulated above, dropping the hammer on a gun that is loaded is at minimum a poor idea, and seems to quickly fall into irrational or idiotic. But perhaps I’m mistaken, are there manufactures or trainers that recommend doing such things?

[DDTSGM]

If there is still an ill founded concern about a hammer spring wearing out one would probably be better with an 870.

As clearly articulated above, dropping the hammer on a gun that is loaded is at minimum a poor idea, and seems to quickly fall into irrational or idiotic. But perhaps I’m mistaken, are there manufactures or trainers that recommend doing such things?

One of the problems with working at a facility which trained officers from many agencies is teaching methods which address the variations in equipment used by the different agencies.

Our cruiser ready positions was: mag tube loaded, chamber empty, action locked, safety engaged.

I have a bias against leaving shotguns unattended with their actions unlocked and/or safeties disengaged. As someone mentioned earlier, if a bad guy grabs the shotgun, make him do a little work to fire it - that buys time for the officer, plus the bad guy might not know anything about pump action shotguns besides seeing someone in a movie shoot it and pump the action.

In the mid 70's many agencies in our area didn't have shotgun racks in the units, neither did the highway patrol. Often shotguns were carried in a scabbard which was mounted in front of the (mostly) bench seat. Absent that, the shotgun was often carried in a partially unzipped shotgun case laid in front of the seat. With the action unlocked if you weren't careful it was possible to push a shotgun with an unlocked action into the scabbard or case and move the action to the rear, them move the action back forward upon removal. That could be bad news if you worked it back and forth enough to chamber a round.

For those reasons I'm a fan of locked actions and safeties engaged.

If one feels the need to leave a loaded shotgun unlocked the best method I can think of is to insert a self-ejecting chamber flag such as a SAF-T-ROUND into the chamber, close the action then load the mag tube.

If you don't want to go to that expense, make sure the shotgun is empty and clear, then look the action closed on an empty chamber, disengage the safety, muxxle in a safe direction and squeeze the trigger, then load the mag tube.

JMO, YMMV

[Oldherkpilot]

The question of whether to drop the hammer on a shotgun with a loaded mag tube reminded me of an article I'd read awhile back. It took me over an hour to find the dang article, but I cracked it!
https://opensourcedefense.substack.com/p/osd-192-safety-at-scale

This is the section that I try to keep in mind:

You drive results like that by thinking at scale. Think about a dry fire procedure. Or a holstering procedure. Or a drawstroke. It’ll work safely ten out of ten times. And probably a hundred out of a hundred. Maybe a thousand out of a thousand. But those are human-scale numbers. Our monkey brains deal in those. We don’t deal in millions, but gun safety does. Is your holstering procedure reliable enough to work safely one million out of one million times? Not a single violation in all those reps?

If you've never checked out OSD, you should give it a look.

[Navin Johnson]

One of the problems with working at a facility which trained officers from many agencies is teaching methods which address the variations in equipment used by the different agencies.

Our cruiser ready positions was: mag tube loaded, chamber empty, action locked, safety engaged.

I have a bias against leaving shotguns unattended with their actions unlocked and/or safeties disengaged. As someone mentioned earlier, if a bad guy grabs the shotgun, make him do a little work to fire it - that buys time for the officer, plus the bad guy might not know anything about pump action shotguns besides seeing someone in a movie shoot it and pump the action.

In the mid 70's many agencies in our area didn't have shotgun racks in the units, neither did the highway patrol. Often shotguns were carried in a scabbard which was mounted in front of the (mostly) bench seat. Absent that, the shotgun was often carried in a partially unzipped shotgun case laid in front of the seat. With the action unlocked if you weren't careful it was possible to push a shotgun with an unlocked action into the scabbard or case and move the action to the rear, them move the action back forward upon removal. That could be bad news if you worked it back and forth enough to chamber a round.

For those reasons I'm a fan of locked actions and safeties engaged.

If one feels the need to leave a loaded shotgun unlocked the best method I can think of is to insert a self-ejecting chamber flag such as a SAF-T-ROUND into the chamber, close the action then load the mag tube.

If you don't want to go to that expense, make sure the shotgun is empty and clear, then look the action closed on an empty chamber, disengage the safety, muxxle in a safe direction and squeeze the trigger, then load the mag tube.

JMO, YMMV

I was in reference to poster whom wanted hammer down but loaded lifter/mag on a 1301. This can't be done without shells already on board as the lifter is locked after the hammer is dropped. He is worried about the hammer spring wearing out

I agree with all you said

[TCinVA]

You drive results like that by thinking at scale. Think about a dry fire procedure. Or a holstering procedure. Or a drawstroke. It’ll work safely ten out of ten times. And probably a hundred out of a hundred. Maybe a thousand out of a thousand. But those are human-scale numbers. Our monkey brains deal in those. We don’t deal in millions, but gun safety does. Is your holstering procedure reliable enough to work safely one million out of one million times? Not a single violation in all those reps?


This is how I look at things now...and I think that it's the best way to look at things.

A long time ago I was in class with a skydiving instructor who had accumulated all manner of certifications in the endeavor and taught advanced stuff to the US military. He said that a parachute malfunction was not a matter of if, but when. If you jump enough, you will experience one.

Pretty much everything works like that. The more exposure you have, the more risk you face. After talking with Todd early on I realized I was going to put a loaded gun back into the holster literally thousands of times per year. I realized I would be doing a significant number of those repetitions at the end of a long training day when I was hot, sunburned, dehydrated, and mentally distracted. And that's why I switched to mandating that any handgun I carry have some active safety mechanism I can use to stop the weapon from firing during the reholstering process.

Then I sort of backed into becoming an instructor and now I'm looking at the wide range of people who have come to me for help in learning to protect themselves. And now I'm looking at how many times these people will be handling these frightfully powerful weapons and what sort of mental and physical states they might be in when doing so. I have an obligation to try and come up with advised practices that put as much distance between them and a negative outcome as I can. Ashton and I also try our absolute best to get people thinking in terms of risk management and mitigation in all aspects of dealing with firearms and self defense.

We've even had a couple of people grumble because our "safety brief" is more in depth than they would prefer. It's longer because as a part of the class we are trying to teach people how to live with the gun, not just how to shoot it.

[TCinVA]

While we're on the theme of not being able to get a shotgun into operation, here's a video of an officer struggling with an 870 less lethal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8waKMUKDtk

At 2:58, he tries and fails to get a round into the chamber. At first, I thought he did what most people do and forgot to hit the action lock button, but it seems like he is using his left hand thumb to push it in. He's clearly trying to rack the pump but it isn't budging. This 870 also looks like it doesn't have a flexi tab lifter. I wonder if a shell was stuck between the lifter and the bolt.

That is a pretty vintage 870 Wingmaster police spec gun.

It could well be that a shell was backed out on the lifter.

It could also be that something was wrong in the trigger group of that gun. That gun was likely manufactured before Carter was in office and if someone has replaced critical springs and/or ensured that the shell stops in that gun are in proper working order I'd eat my own hat. So it's been riding around in a cruiser for literally decades where it's been bounced around (likely with shells in the mag tube) in chases, running over curbs, railroad tracks, maybe even a collision or two.

And it may also have been abused by stupid human tricks like using the barrel as a receptacle for trash. Shoving candy wrappers, gum wrappers, straw wrappers, cigarette ashes, chewed tobacco and all manner of other inappropriate detritus down the barrel of a shotgun in a cruiser seems to be a fairly popular pastime among a certain percentage of police officers. On numerous occasions it has resulted in guns that were completely non-functional because when the gun is actually needed an officer works the action to chamber a round but the action is fouled by all that shit. The 870 is a pretty robust weapon but it won't work very well if you have a few cellophane wrappers tangled up in the working bits.

I can only guess as to why that gun wasn't working without looking at it in that state myself, but any of the above are pretty good guesses. The shell stops doing a poor job of stopping the shells and allowing one to back out on the lifter while the gun was sitting in the rack is a highly likely reason.

[mmc45414]

So I was sitting here next to my 1301 Comp (not Pro) that was still in the case from three gun yesterday and I got it out to fiddle with it.

With the hammer down (or cocked) if I push the bolt catch it releases the lifter, and then release the bolt catch, shells could be loaded. The stunt is if you let the lifter back down between shells it will lock again, and pushing it again is going to put a shell out on the lifter, so you will need to hold your tongue just right when you are doing this. This might be a little more manageable with the longer receiver port of the Comp versions.

But another trouble with the hammer being dropped is it prevents the safety being engaged. So with the above method you would need to rach the action and then engage the safety, maybe best to be racking with your strong hand to keep it away from the trigger instead of reaching across with your weak hand.

Maybe Hammer Down/Safety Off/Full Tube/Shell On Lifter (ETA: Shell on Lifter would be optional) is more Locker Ready than Cruiser Ready. I also just checked and I can go hammer down with a chamber flag in, giving a person an indication of the status without manipulating anything (can see shell on lifter, can see safety is off, can see chamber flag indicating empty chamber.

[Magsz]

This.

I was one of the few still rocking a scattergun once they handed out patrol rifles.

Safety off, empty chamber, hammer down, full mag tube of 00 buck.

Hit the gun release, grab shotgun, rack a round, engage safety (if necessary) and top off mag tube (if time allowed).

Interesting.

For us, cruiser ready was never specified cocked or not. I'm going to have to actually ask the trainers if they've ever specified which way they want it done. I don't believe we have a written policy on this but i'm sure its buried somewhere.

I run my 870 empty chamber, cocked, safety on.

[Oldherkpilot]

This is how I look at things now...and I think that it's the best way to look at things.

A long time ago I was in class with a skydiving instructor who had accumulated all manner of certifications in the endeavor and taught advanced stuff to the US military. He said that a parachute malfunction was not a matter of if, but when. If you jump enough, you will experience one.

Pretty much everything works like that. The more exposure you have, the more risk you face. After talking with Todd early on I realized I was going to put a loaded gun back into the holster literally thousands of times per year. I realized I would be doing a significant number of those repetitions at the end of a long training day when I was hot, sunburned, dehydrated, and mentally distracted. And that's why I switched to mandating that any handgun I carry have some active safety mechanism I can use to stop the weapon from firing during the reholstering process.

Then I sort of backed into becoming an instructor and now I'm looking at the wide range of people who have come to me for help in learning to protect themselves. And now I'm looking at how many times these people will be handling these frightfully powerful weapons and what sort of mental and physical states they might be in when doing so. I have an obligation to try and come up with advised practices that put as much distance between them and a negative outcome as I can. Ashton and I also try our absolute best to get people thinking in terms of risk management and mitigation in all aspects of dealing with firearms and self defense.

We've even had a couple of people grumble because our "safety brief" is more in depth than they would prefer. It's longer because as a part of the class we are trying to teach people how to live with the gun, not just how to shoot it.

I like your attitude.

[LukeNCMX]

TCinVA already touched on this but shell on lifter cruiser ready is 100% the way to go.

I think this thread is thoughtful and a good reminder to know your gear but I kinda reject the whole premise of cops being casual users. They are professional users and are being paid to perform these types simple but not easy tasks on demand.

5 minutes of dry practice a week with a couple dummy shells in this guy's garage would have prevented this issue whether shell on lifter or not. I also think the guy who is going to forget his manual of arms with a semi (simpler process imo) would likely forget them with a pump gun also.

On a side note, does Phoenix PD issue 1301s? if so that's actually pretty badass.

[Lon]

Interesting.

For us, cruiser ready was never specified cocked or not. I'm going to have to actually ask the trainers if they've ever specified which way they want it done. I don't believe we have a written policy on this but i'm sure its buried somewhere.

I run my 870 empty chamber, cocked, safety on.

Here’s the official terminology and procedure from the Ohio Peace Officer shotgun course:
108689
108690

We run ours like lwt16 does, except our tube is empty since we only do LL shotguns. For us, once we grab it, we run the action back, drop one in the opening and combat load it. If there’s time, we’ll top off the tube and put the safety on. If not, we’re shooting one at a time with combat loads.

[TCinVA]

They are professional users and are being paid to perform these types simple but not easy tasks on demand.

The reality is that they are not being put through enough training and sustainment practice to achieve that.



I also think the guy who is going to forget his manual of arms with a semi (simpler process imo) would likely forget them with a pump gun also.


I don't based on watching a lot of people try to get a shotgun into action under mild stress. The typical cruiser ready condition (as described above) is incredibly effective as a storage condition because of how easy it is to get the gun into action. If you want a pump gun to shoot, you have to run the pump. Every time you want it to shoot, you have to run the pump. With that storage condition people are literally practicing getting the gun into action every time they shoot it. Those extra reps and that extra simplicity matters to people who are unfamiliar with the manual of arms.



On a side note, does Phoenix PD issue 1301s? if so that's actually pretty badass.

Could also be a personal purchase. Don't know for sure, though.

[RevolverRob]

You drive results like that by thinking at scale. Think about a dry fire procedure. Or a holstering procedure. Or a drawstroke. It’ll work safely ten out of ten times. And probably a hundred out of a hundred. Maybe a thousand out of a thousand. But those are human-scale numbers. Our monkey brains deal in those. We don’t deal in millions, but gun safety does. Is your holstering procedure reliable enough to work safely one million out of one million times? Not a single violation in all those reps?

This is why all safety procedures must have redundant components. You cannot count that you will have 1,000,001 error free holsterings/loadings/etc.

But your point brought something else to mind that I had not considered before - but was kind of stuck in my head.

A few days ago, I decided to work in shotgun manipulations. I run an 870 and have for years, but almost all that work was on a square range. As I worked movement in the tight confines of my house I came to the realization that the rear placed 870 cross bolt location...sucks. I wasn't sure what to do other than change my grip on the gun to maximize being able to hit the safety.

Until I read your post and thought about lots of reps...

I think the top tang safety of the Mossberg might be best for me. I have hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of safety reps with my strong side thumb on 1911 and AR-pattern safeties. Sliding a tang safety back and forth with my strong side thumb would likely be much closer to second nature than the cross bolt on my Remingtons.

[LukeNCMX]

The reality is that they are not being put through enough training and sustainment practice to achieve that.

thread drift but my unpopular opinion is that performance and decision making ultimately rest on the end user. This is not an excuse for agencies to offer junk training but rather recognition that both sides need to do contribute appropriately.

[Coyotesfan97]

This.

I was one of the few still rocking a scattergun once they handed out patrol rifles.

Safety off, empty chamber, hammer down, full mag tube of 00 buck.

Hit the gun release, grab shotgun, rack a round, engage safety (if necessary) and top off mag tube (if time allowed).

Our cruiser ready was chamber empty, hammer back, safety on. We grabbed the shotgun, hit the slide release, and chambered a round.

[TCinVA]

thread drift but my unpopular opinion is that performance and decision making ultimately rest on the end user. This is not an excuse for agencies to offer junk training but rather recognition that both sides need to do contribute appropriately.

I have encountered quite a few peace officers who have come at me with the idea that the agency should provide all the training that they need.

I then counter that they would be the only profession in the country where their employer provided all the necessary training to do the job as IT professionals, teachers, lawyers, doctors, contractors, architects, real estate agents, accountants, and any number of other fields require an ongoing practice of learning on one's own time to function and advance.

I don't like spending my own time and my own dime on the training I need to do my dayjob...but I still do it. And I have little sympathy for somebody who tells me that all their training should just be provided to them.

[BN]

I'm in Ohio and the local departments I'm aware of use condition 3 on their cruiser shotguns. That way no matter what type of shotgun the officer has, the method of operation is the same. I recall one small dept. that had an Ithica 37, a Mossburg pump with only a pistol grip and maybe an 870. The slide release and safety were in different places on all of them.

The thumb safety on the tang is very hard to use when the Mossburg has a pistol grip.

[Ed L]

I am wondering how much of this issue is because of Beretta and Benelli's weird manual of arms and the fact that you can have a loaded magazine and run the bolt back and have it not feed a round unless you first hit the release button.

[Borderland]

One of the problems with working at a facility which trained officers from many agencies is teaching methods which address the variations in equipment used by the different agencies.

Our cruiser ready positions was: mag tube loaded, chamber empty, action locked, safety engaged.

I have a bias against leaving shotguns unattended with their actions unlocked and/or safeties disengaged. As someone mentioned earlier, if a bad guy grabs the shotgun, make him do a little work to fire it - that buys time for the officer, plus the bad guy might not know anything about pump action shotguns besides seeing someone in a movie shoot it and pump the action.

In the mid 70's many agencies in our area didn't have shotgun racks in the units, neither did the highway patrol. Often shotguns were carried in a scabbard which was mounted in front of the (mostly) bench seat. Absent that, the shotgun was often carried in a partially unzipped shotgun case laid in front of the seat. With the action unlocked if you weren't careful it was possible to push a shotgun with an unlocked action into the scabbard or case and move the action to the rear, them move the action back forward upon removal. That could be bad news if you worked it back and forth enough to chamber a round.

For those reasons I'm a fan of locked actions and safeties engaged.

If one feels the need to leave a loaded shotgun unlocked the best method I can think of is to insert a self-ejecting chamber flag such as a SAF-T-ROUND into the chamber, close the action then load the mag tube.

If you don't want to go to that expense, make sure the shotgun is empty and clear, then look the action closed on an empty chamber, disengage the safety, muxxle in a safe direction and squeeze the trigger, then load the mag tube.

JMO, YMMV

What is a locked action? Just curious because I've never heard that term. As for semi-auto or pump shotgun is that a closed bolt?

I think the problem here may be if the magazine has a round in it, closing the bolt will rack a round into the chamber. The bolt release on an 11-87 is behind the lifter. Beretta is on the side of the receiver which is much better but the problem of accidentally racking a round into the chamber is still there....if there happens to be one in the magazine. Just checking the chamber for a round isn't good enough.

So the magazine has to be empty and loaded after the bolt is closed. Correct?

The officer that gets a shotgun with a closed bolt should check it. How do you do that? Pull the bolt back far enough to check the chamber without chambering a round from the mag I guess.

I'm not up to speed on all auto loaders so bare with me here. I just ran 50 rounds through an 11-87 on a 5 stand course. First auto I've used.

[DDTSGM]

thread drift but my unpopular opinion is that performance and decision making ultimately rest on the end user. This is not an excuse for agencies to offer junk training but rather recognition that both sides need to do contribute appropriately.


I have encountered quite a few peace officers who have come at me with the idea that the agency should provide all the training that they need.

I then counter that they would be the only profession in the country where their employer provided all the necessary training to do the job as IT professionals, teachers, lawyers, doctors, contractors, architects, real estate agents, accountants, and any number of other fields require an ongoing practice of learning on one's own time to function and advance.

I don't like spending my own time and my own dime on the training I need to do my dayjob...but I still do it. And I have little sympathy for somebody who tells me that all their training should just be provided to them.

I do not know about every state in the union. but under KSCPOST rules the officer doesn't report his training, the agency does. The agency also decides what is reportable training and what is not. As a non-firearms related example - let's say Patrol Officer Joe wanted to be a Trooper. Thinking that taking and passing an accident reconstruction course would better his chances of getting hired as a Trooper, he takes vacation and attends the reconstruction course at Northwestern. The Chief doesn't care if Joe can reconstruct an accident, and denies the training.

Now here's the rub, officers need to get 40 hours of in-service training. Agencies are not required to provide forty-hours of in-service, although many do. So in this case, Joe had counted on that reconstruction course putting him over forty hours. Chief denying put's him short. If Joe cant pick up enough hours the Chief likes, he could possibly face decertification. There is no punishment for the Agency or.Chief if Joe doesn't get his hours, Joe's the only one at risk.

As I pointed out over and over as these rules were being formulated, and many times afterword, this makes no bleeding sense at all.

My thought was that approved in-service training courses would be assigned CEN's (continuing education numbers) and officers would be responsible for reporting their training, with KSCPOST providing quarterly reports to the officer and the officer's agency mid-year, third quarter, and close of training year.

I thought that would be a stride toward further recognition that LE is a profession.

Anyways, Luke, many officers actually don't believe they will be required to use their firearm. Regardless of what they are told, they have the 'lalala, it won't happen to me attitude.' The numbers somewhat bear that out. Over a 1/2 million officers in the U.S. In 2019 (last year handy) 48 officers were feloniously killed. Of those 48, 44 were killed by firearms. During that same period (2019) 75 officers were injured in an assault with a firearm or cutting instrument.

So, in one year, 2019, 123 officers were killed or injured by firearms or cutting instruments. If there are roughly 500,000 officers in the United States, that's a one in 4,065 chance of injury or death; if we look at firearms deaths, 44, that's a one in 11,363 chance.

The bottom line is that most officers don't really think deeply about or study the risks. They know that the chances are slim that they will need to use their firearm to protect themselves, so they continue to march in blissful ignaorance with no real motivation to practice.

[RevolverRob]

Locked action is for pumps. The slide is forward and locked. You need to hit the slide release to rack the gun.

The Beretta and Benelli each have magazine cut offs/shell releases. The cut off activates - any time the hammer is cocked - and deactivates anytime the hammer is not cocked. You can also manually deactivate it, by pushing up on the shell release/cut off lever.

Here's what happens:

Gun is empty, bolt is locked back. The correct way to get the gun back into action is to port load a shell and hit the bolt release. This closes the bolt on a live round. Then you fill the tube. You go back to shooting, each time the hammer drops the shell release is deactivated, dropping the lifter down and then feeding as the bolt goes back and does its autoloader thing.

Now, you want to unload the gun, you rack the bolt back, with the shell release/cut off activated, and the bolt comes back, ejecting the chamber round, and then goes forward again. The magazine tube is still full. The gun does not feed a round, because the cut off is active. You can then empty the tube or you can leave the tube loaded.

Now, here is what you cannot do: You cannot rack the bolt from this state and get the gun to feed a round from the tube. The gun will NOT feed from the tube without deactivating the cut off/shell release prior to working the bolt. You can deactivate the shell release by either dropping the hammer or hitting the shell release lever. You can rack the bolt ten thousand times without dropping the hammer or hitting the shell release and it won't feed from the tube.

If you don't store the gun with a round in the chamber, you'll have to either lower the hammer, so when you rack the bolt the gun feeds from the tube or push the shell release so when you rack the bolt the gun feeds. Either way you have to prep/train that into place.

[Ed L]

I do the "hit the shell release, and then rack the bolt to chamber a round" with the Beretta. It's more complicated than an AR, but not insurmountable.

[Paul Blackburn]

Proper use and explanation of the 1301 with the magazine cutoff needs a video.

[mmc45414]

I have not been keeping my 1301 in a ready state at home, but when I use it for three gun we use a safe area to preload the tubes. The requirement is the chamber flag must stay in, and the safety should be on (not sure that is specifically a rule or just my habit). So with the hammer cocked it is simple to just stuff the shells in it and leave it wait for my turn. But this past week a friend who is less familiar with it was shooting it also, so I went ahead and popped a shell out onto the lifter. As far as I know this is kosher, and I will probably start doing this when I am the only user, just because that the state I would keep it in, if I started to (might also snag a A300 one day, and that I would keep ready) and don't want to brain fart when I make ready.

But for those that do not, is there a reason not to have a shell out on the lifter? Just seems like a Why Wouldn't You sorta thing to me, but interested in other's reasoning.

[RevolverRob]

Proper use and explanation of the 1301 with the magazine cutoff needs a video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bj2ARCHjNY

[Magsz]

So many questions...

I have the LE SKU 1301 Tactical.

Can the barrel be threaded for chokes? For shits and giggles i'd like to get a suppressor for hunting. Yeah...I can't believe I just said that, but I did. :)

[Paul Blackburn]

One of the confusing things about 1301 explanations is a lack of consistency referring to nomenclature.

For example;

We have magazine cutoff and shell cutoff.

We have carrier stop push button, and shell release, and tab.

I think I've heard the bolt release called something else too.

[RevolverRob]

One of the confusing things about 1301 explanations is a lack of consistency referring to nomenclature.

For example;

We have magazine cutoff and shell cutoff.

We have carrier stop push button, and shell release, and tab.

I absolutely get where you are coming from. I went and looked at the Beretta Parts Diagram (https://www.midwestgunworks.com/beretta-1301/parts.html) in the vain hope that it would give us the correct terms.

The 'tab' you push on a 1301 to release the shell/carrier and therefore 'deactivate the magazine/shell cutoff' is called...

The Carrier Catch Plunger - https://www.midwestgunworks.com/beretta-1301/carrier-catch-plungers.html

So, I believe the correct technical terminology would be:

The carrier catch functions to lock the carrier in the upright position, not allowing shells to feed from the magazine tube when the bolt is reciprocated and the hammer is cocked. It therefore functions as a shell/magazine tube cutoff. To deactivate the carrier catch you can lower the hammer (by pressing the trigger) or you can manually press the carrier catch plunger in. Either way, when the carrier is released it drops down, allowing shells from the magazine tube to feed to be fed into chamber when the bolt is reciprocated.

___


I think I've heard the bolt release called something else too.

Beretta calls it the cartridge catch - https://www.midwestgunworks.com/beretta-1301/cartridge-latch-buttons.html

But then confusingly calls the exterior lever/button a "bolt release" or a 'latch cover'.

___

I have a question and I do not have a 1301/Yooper to check. Can you 'decock' the hammer, by racking the bolt all the way back, pressing the trigger, and then riding the bolt forward? Much like you would decock (some) bolt action rifles, by lifting the bolt, pressing the trigger, and turning the bolt handle back down.

[willie]

Those who have owed Remington 1100/1187 series shotguns are faced with a different procedure when using Benelli/Beretta semi auto's. Hence, past knowledge may interfere with adapting to the new system and therein is a contributing factor to the problem mentioned. I maintain my Stoeger 3000 with a shell on the lifter. Then one day I picked up the weapon, racked the bolt to check it, and almost loaded the chamber. I was expecting a live shell to be ejected if the gun were loaded. Since this did not occur, and if I had not been looking closely, I would have loaded the weapon by letting go of the bolt handle.

My M3000 has an idiosyncrasy. When completely unloaded and then dry fired and put on safe, the bolt can't be retracted. Moving safety to off position must be done to retract bolt.

I read accounts detailing deficiencies in law enforcement training written by those in the profession and conclude that officers who can't or won't learn to drive a Glock safely are unlikely to master handling a long gun.

[TCinVA]

Those who have owed Remington 1100/1187 series shotguns are faced with a different procedure when using Benelli/Beretta semi auto's.

Most definitely. The Remington shotguns, Mossberg shotguns and some others will feed a shell every time the bolt is cycled. In class I teach people to treat those just like pump guns in terms of setting them up for defensive use.

The...let's call them higher end...semi-autos usually have the shell cutoff feature that descends from field guns. For defensive use, there's some benefit to it as it allows you to slug select very quickly. But it is more complicated to keep track of. That means a higher amount of training initially and more sustainment work to run the gun properly under stress, at least until one has achieved a state of overlearning on the operation of the gun.

That's why I tell folks that the humble pump gun has incredible value as a defensive tool for the more casual user.

The flip side of that coin is that in today's world we have a lot of people who come to a shotgun only after they've had plenty of time on semi-autos...so those people have to actually be taught to run the action to make the gun work. But that seems to stick better than the complicated manipulations of semi-autos.

[SCCY Marshal]

...Can you 'decock' the hammer, by racking the bolt all the way back, pressing the trigger, and then riding the bolt forward? Much like you would decock (some) bolt action rifles, by lifting the bolt, pressing the trigger, and turning the bolt handle back down.

That would be a malfunction known as 'hammer follow" and a very bad thing. Semi-automatics have a disconnector to prevent the sear from engaging/disengaging until the trigger has been let forward. If the hammer is following the bolt home while the trigger is depressed, at best you wind up with a dead trigger and failure to fire which needs the bolt racked. At worst, the gun goes off and quite possibly while out of battery.

So, no, a properly functioning semi-automatic will not allow cock-on-close bolt-action style decocking. One that does needs to be immediately taken out of service and repaired.

[Borderland]

I never knew Beretta/Benelli had that many controls to deal with.

I'm glad I didn't buy one. Much easier to treat an 1100 like an 870. I've had one of those for 50 years and ran a truck load of ammo through it. I don't use it for HD so the mag is never loaded. If I did use it for that I would just keep the bolt locked back with the chamber empty. The same for my 11-87. I know, springs, but they sell those if you need one.

[Paul Blackburn]

The 1301 has a safety, a carrier stop, a charging handle, and a bolt release.

Cruiser Ready civilian version;
All thats required is load the magazine tube then press carrier stop. Now all thats required to get the shotgun in action is running the charging handle/bolt.

Emergency Reload;
Drop a shell in the receiver and hit the bolt release.

The manual of arms is pretty much running the bolt from cruiser ready and hitting the bolt release for emergency reloads.

[Magsz]

The 1301 has a safety, a carrier stop, a charging handle, and a bolt release.

Cruiser Ready civilian version;
All thats required is load the magazine tube then press carrier stop. Now all thats required to get the shotgun in action is running the charging handle/bolt.

Emergency Reload;
Drop a shell in the receiver and hit the bolt release.

The manual of arms is pretty much running the bolt from cruiser ready and hitting the bolt release for emergency reloads.

Anyone have a procedure for properly doing slug change overs on the 1301?

[TCinVA]

Anyone have a procedure for properly doing slug change overs on the 1301?

I grab the bolt handle, pull fully to the rear, hold it there, use my left hand to grab a slug from the side saddle and shove it in the ejection port, let the bolt fly forward and shoot. My right hand is on the bolt handle and serves to hold it in my shoulder.

You can use the traditional magazine tube load as well, but you have to use the shell release button to drop the slug out of the magazine tube.

[Magsz]

I grab the bolt handle, pull fully to the rear, hold it there, use my left hand to grab a slug from the side saddle and shove it in the ejection port, let the bolt fly forward and shoot. My right hand is on the bolt handle and serves to hold it in my shoulder.

You can use the traditional magazine tube load as well, but you have to use the shell release button to drop the slug out of the magazine tube.

How do you stop the shell on the lifter from getting in the way of port loading?

[Paul Blackburn]

According to the Beretta 1301 Instruction manual they call the shell release button the "carrier stop push button"

I think it would help if we standardize the names of the controls.
108767
108768

[TCinVA]

How do you stop the shell on the lifter from getting in the way of port loading?

When I'm doing a slug select it's happening if there's a round in the chamber, so that isn't a problem.

If we're talking about selecting slug before the fireworks start, I'll just run the bolt twice if I'm doing this from a gun that's in a cruiser ready condition with a shell on the lifter.

You can see where this is going.

The choice of running a semi-automatic shotgun requires understanding that particular shotgun's function well enough to be able to diagnose and take the appropriate action when the moment of crisis comes. It can most definitely be done, but it's going to take more work on the user's part to become truly proficient in the operation.

[TCinVA]

I think it would help if we standardize the names of the controls.



Yeah, that would be awesome except the gun companies differ on the terminology they use and the terminology they use isn't as descriptive as it needs to be for the end user to remember WTF they are trying to do.

"Engage the carrier stop push button"

Normal person: WTF is a carrier?

TC, teaching people: "Press the shell release button"

Normal person: Oh, because it's a button that releases a shell. Gotcha.

[Paul Blackburn]

Yeah, that would be awesome except the gun companies differ on the terminology they use and the terminology they use isn't as descriptive as it needs to be for the end user to remember WTF they are trying to do.

"Engage the carrier stop push button"

Normal person: WTF is a carrier?

TC, teaching people: "Press the shell release button"

Normal person: Oh, because it's a button that releases a shell. Gotcha.

That’s what I was getting at, standardizing the “nomenclature TC version”.

[gato naranja]

I never knew Beretta/Benelli had that many controls to deal with.

I'm glad I didn't buy one. Much easier to treat an 1100 like an 870. I've had one of those for 50 years and ran a truck load of ammo through it. I don't use it for HD so the mag is never loaded. If I did use it for that I would just keep the bolt locked back with the chamber empty. The same for my 11-87. I know, springs, but they sell those if you need one.

As much as I want to stop racking a forend, I may soldier on with the 870P for whatever shotgun time I have left, simply because of familiarity. Law of diminishing returns, and all that.

[Borderland]

As much as I want to stop racking a forend, I may soldier on with the 870P for whatever shotgun time I have left, simply because of familiarity. Law of diminishing returns, and all that.

For SD the extra bucks for a new auto-loader doesn't make a lot of sense. Even if a person had a regular 870 field and wanted to use it for SD, an 18'' barrel is available for around two fiddy.

I wanted an auto to shoot 5 stand. I cheaped out and bought an 11-87. Works, but takes some time to learn how to run one.

[Paul Blackburn]

When I'm doing a slug select it's happening if there's a round in the chamber, so that isn't a problem.

If we're talking about selecting slug before the fireworks start, I'll just run the bolt twice if I'm doing this from a gun that's in a cruiser ready condition with a shell on the lifter.

You can see where this is going.

The choice of running a semi-automatic shotgun requires understanding that particular shotgun's function well enough to be able to diagnose and take the appropriate action when the moment of crisis comes. It can most definitely be done, but it's going to take more work on the user's part to become truly proficient in the operation.

Either way it's just running the bolt to eject a shell and then again to insert the slug.

[Bio]

Most definitely. The Remington shotguns, Mossberg shotguns and some others will feed a shell every time the bolt is cycled. In class I teach people to treat those just like pump guns in terms of setting them up for defensive use.

The...let's call them higher end...semi-autos usually have the shell cutoff feature that descends from field guns. For defensive use, there's some benefit to it as it allows you to slug select very quickly. But it is more complicated to keep track of. That means a higher amount of training initially and more sustainment work to run the gun properly under stress, at least until one has achieved a state of overlearning on the operation of the gun.

That's why I tell folks that the humble pump gun has incredible value as a defensive tool for the more casual user.

The flip side of that coin is that in today's world we have a lot of people who come to a shotgun only after they've had plenty of time on semi-autos...so those people have to actually be taught to run the action to make the gun work. But that seems to stick better than the complicated manipulations of semi-autos.

Do you think the "gross motor" aspect of running the pump on a pump-action makes it easier to internalize and use under stress than the "fine motor" manipulations to bring other types of shotguns into action? Of course, pump action have safeties anyway, so this is probably me barking up the wrong tree.

[TCinVA]

Do you think the "gross motor" aspect of running the pump on a pump-action makes it easier to internalize and use under stress than the "fine motor" manipulations to bring other types of shotguns into action? Of course, pump action have safeties anyway, so this is probably me barking up the wrong tree.

No, I think the misappropriation of gross and fine motor skills in the gun world is a sign of much that is wrong with it. In human development gross motor skills was traditionally reserved for discussing a child learning to use large muscle groups in the arms, legs, chest, back, etc. Doing things like learning to stand up, walk, etc. Fine motor skills involve small muscle groups like those in the hands would be learning to use utensils, learning to press buttons, etc. Seeing it in the gun world always made my teeth itch.

The core of the issue is lack of familiarity. With a pump gun, however, to make the gun work people do seem to be able to internalize "run pump, gun go bang" as that's literally what they have to do to make the weapon shoot any time they wish to shoot it. I think it is as simple as more reps doing the thing that makes the gun shoot.

Setting a 1301 up for cruiser ready or getting it into action are specialized acts that are not performed continuously. Running the action of a pump you do every time you intend to make a loud noise with it. I think it boils down to that simple fact alone.

[HCM]

Does anyone have experience with the Hornady Rapid Rack for Shotguns / know which semi autos it’s compatible with?

https://www.hornady.com/shop/accessories/hornady-rapid-rack?fbclid=IwAR0nfs8Rw8aPkxRMln9rjDM1oP7swdau2gmL 7PjZ-ac5SV7oMbp1zaWpnHs

[Paul Blackburn]

No, I think the misappropriation of gross and fine motor skills in the gun world is a sign of much that is wrong with it. In human development gross motor skills was traditionally reserved for discussing a child learning to use large muscle groups in the arms, legs, chest, back, etc. Doing things like learning to stand up, walk, etc. Fine motor skills involve small muscle groups like those in the hands would be learning to use utensils, learning to press buttons, etc. Seeing it in the gun world always made my teeth itch.

The core of the issue is lack of familiarity. With a pump gun, however, to make the gun work people do seem to be able to internalize "run pump, gun go bang" as that's literally what they have to do to make the weapon shoot any time they wish to shoot it. I think it is as simple as more reps doing the thing that makes the gun shoot.

Setting a 1301 up for cruiser ready or getting it into action are specialized acts that are not performed continuously. Running the action of a pump you do every time you intend to make a loud noise with it. I think it boils down to that simple fact alone.

Cycling a forend on a pump shotgun can be memorized and internalized very quickly and performed without conscious thought automatically. It's literally one procedure.

With semi autos there are multiple procedures depending on what condition you carry the gun in.

[mmc45414]

Most people are accustomed to chambering a round in their pistol and the AR, the auto shotgun probably only gets complicated when some policy forbids leaving a shell on the lifter (something that would typically be done when not under stress)?

[GyroF-16]

Most people are accustomed to chambering a round in their pistol and the AR, the auto shotgun probably only gets complicated when some policy forbids leaving a shell on the lifter (something that would typically be done when not under stress)?

Concur.

I’m far from an expert, but FWIW…
My 1301T is stored with a loaded mag tube, empty lifter, empty chamber, safety off.
My rationale for the above is that if an unauthorized user comes across it, I don’t want it to be too simple to load and shoot.
For me, on the other hand, I’ve physically and mentally rehearsed the “two switch actions” required to get it into action.
It seems straightforward to me, but I chose the setup, rather than having it imposed on me, so maybe that makes a difference.

[stinx]

When my former agency had shotguns we carried them with the mag tube loaded, a shell on the carrier and the bolt closed and weapon on safe. We never had any safety issues or issues with officers being unable to chamber a round and get the gun going. We had Benelli M-2’s and M-4’s for issued shotguns. YMMV

[DDTSGM]

Does anyone have experience with the Hornady Rapid Rack for Shotguns / know which semi autos it’s compatible with?

https://www.hornady.com/shop/accessories/hornady-rapid-rack?fbclid=IwAR0nfs8Rw8aPkxRMln9rjDM1oP7swdau2gmL 7PjZ-ac5SV7oMbp1zaWpnHs

I'm not sure Hornady is making them any longer. BOTACH has them in stock.

Saf T Round makes an ejecting chamber indicator for semi-autos that differs from the pump action ones in that they are shorter https://www.safrgun.com/shotgun/12-gauge-auto

109064 109065 109066

I have both the Saf T Rounds and the Rapid Racks for AR's and shotguns. Also Saf T Rounds for pistols.

I will not leave any weapon unattended - in either my safe, console safe, or night stand - with the chamber loaded, so I use them all the time.

In reality I haven't had 100% luck using the Rapid Racks as they are advertised. On AR's I run the charging handle ejecting the Rapid Rack, on 870's you cycle the action, of course. On pistols you run the slide.

On my semi auto shotguns - Remington, Mossberg and Browning - using the Rapid Rack by pulling on it's handle has more often than not resulted the Rapid Rack getting caught in the ejection port of my sporting shotguns, The Rapid Rack works on my JMPro, but in reality it is much easier to use the bolt handle.

I simply use them as chamber flags which eject - and they do that unfailingly if you run the action.

ETA: 12ga Rapid Rack Picture

[mmc45414]

I will not leave any weapon unattended - in either my safe, console safe, or night stand - with the chamber loaded, so I use them all the time.When I started three gun chamber flags were a requirement, before that I didn't like them, figuring every gun needs to be handled safety and the chamber checked. But since I was forced to start using them, I like them now. Nice knowing at a glance that a chamber is clear. Still should be checked if it will be handled, but handy for just moving things in and out of the way in the safe.

Maybe in this context they help as a user reminder that they need to chamber a round?

[GyroF-16]

I'm not sure Hornady is making them any longer. BOTACH has them in stock.

Saf T Round makes an ejecting chamber indicator for semi-autos that differs from the pump action ones in that they are shorter https://www.safrgun.com/shotgun/12-gauge-auto

109064 109065 109066

I have both the Saf T Rounds and the Rapid Racks for AR's and shotguns. Also Saf T Rounds for pistols.

I will not leave any weapon unattended - in either my safe, console safe, or night stand - with the chamber loaded, so I use them all the time.

In reality I haven't had 100% luck using the Rapid Racks as they are advertised. On AR's I run the charging handle ejecting the Rapid Rack, on 870's you cycle the action, of course. On pistols you run the slide.

On my semi auto shotguns - Remington, Mossberg and Browning - using the Rapid Rack by pulling on it's handle has more often than not resulted the Rapid Rack getting caught in the ejection port of my sporting shotguns, The Rapid Rack works on my JMPro, but in reality it is much easier to use the bolt handle.

I simply use them as chamber flags which eject - and they do that unfailingly if you run the action.

ETA: 12ga Rapid Rack Picture

Thanks-
I’ve ordered Saf T Rounds for shotgun and AR, as well as a simple chamber flag for son’s new AR.

[mmc45414]

If there is general interest in chamber flags these are the simple ones I buy (https://www.amazon.com/FSDC-550RRCF-Rifle-Chamber-Safety-6-Pack/dp/B07TCN95DJ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2LOBR6BLQQQEV&keywords=FSDC+%28Firearm+Safety+Devices+-+FSDC-550RRCF+Rifle+Chamber+Safety+Flag+6-Pack&qid=1693844615&sprefix=fsdc+firearm+safety+devices+-+fsdc-550rrcf+rifle+chamber+safety+flag+6-pack%2Caps%2C463&sr=8-1). They make a shorter pistol version but the long ones are the same price and easy to trim.

I keep a few extra in my range bag, in case I misplace one or somebody needs one, they are cheap enough to share.

[HCM]

If there is general interest in chamber flags these are the simple ones I buy (https://www.amazon.com/FSDC-550RRCF-Rifle-Chamber-Safety-6-Pack/dp/B07TCN95DJ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2LOBR6BLQQQEV&keywords=FSDC+%28Firearm+Safety+Devices+-+FSDC-550RRCF+Rifle+Chamber+Safety+Flag+6-Pack&qid=1693844615&sprefix=fsdc+firearm+safety+devices+-+fsdc-550rrcf+rifle+chamber+safety+flag+6-pack%2Caps%2C463&sr=8-1). They make a shorter pistol version but the long ones are the same price and easy to trim.

I keep a few extra in my range bag, in case I misplace one or somebody needs one, they are cheap enough to share.

Chamber flags are great on the range or general storage but not appropriate for a gun kept for duty or defensive use.

The Safety Racker and the similar Hornady product act as a dummy round which can be ejected as a round is chambered without extra steps and minimizing potential for malfunction.

[JCN]

Chamber flags are great on the range or general storage but not appropriate for a gun kept for duty or defensive use.

The Safety Racker and the similar Hornady product act as a dummy round which can be ejected as a round is chambered without extra steps and minimizing potential for malfunction.

This one? It looks great, thanks for the mention.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/accessories/hornady-rapid-rack

109104

[HCM]

This one? It looks great, thanks for the mention.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/accessories/hornady-rapid-rack

109104

That one. I prefer it to the safety racket since the odds of braking a piece of plastic on the competing product and tying up a gun are greater than breaking the all metal Hornady product.