Professional instructors and BAD printing…

[Warped Mindless]

I’ll start off by saying that this thread is kind of silly and pointless. I would also like to add in that I’m not trying to disrespect anyone or make claims about a persons abilities. With that said I would like to point out an observation that has kind of “bothered” me for years…

Professional “pistol” instructors cant seem to conceal very well…

I always worried about printing back when I started carrying AIWB about eight years ago. While I have since dialed in my gear to pretty much eliminate most printing in a t shirt, back then I still had some printing. However, once I started seeing all these big name instructors printing BADLY I stopped caring as much.

But its still always bothered me… why do so many “big name” experts seem to print like crazy when wearing a t shirt?

Just watched a video of Travis Hailey doing draws from concealment under a normal t-shirt with a G19 sized gun. He was printing so badly that even the “sheeple” would notice from a mile away. Why?

Seen another video yesterday of Travis Kennedy/Kennedy Defensive Solution using a G19 size gun under a normal t-shirt and again; not just a little printing but a lot of very OBVIOUS printing.

Does all this matter? Nope! Not really but I cant help but wonder why so many experts cant seem to properly conceal a pistol under a t-shirt.

John Lovell? Some videos of him printing like crazy in t-shirts.

Lucas Botkin? Yep! Massive printing in his tees too.

Jason Pike/Froogman Tactical guy

Mike Glover (The rare time hes in a t-shirt and not a button up)

Shawn Ryan

Ive seen a ton more but I literally just spent five minutes scrolling through my Instagram feed and calling out what I seen.

Again; this whole thread is kinda silly and pointless but still it just kind of nags at me… why can’t professional instructors seem to conceal in a t shirt? I can and I’m not a professional instructor. Kind of makes it hard to take them seriously in some regards.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I see some of them not printing when using a smaller gun such as the sig 365 but never the G19s they claim to carry every day.

[Duelist]

If you live on the shooting range, printing with your big gun isn’t a big deal. If you are on a shooting range demoing shooting drills on video, printing with your big gun isn’t a big deal.

Since I don’t live on a shooting range, don’t record myself shooting and post to the social media land, and have the profession I have, I am very careful about printing in my daily life, and pretty much never carry anything but a very small gun except when doing outdoors activities.

[Warped Mindless]

If you live on the shooting range, printing with your big gun isn’t a big deal. If you are on a shooting range demoing shooting drills on video, printing with your big gun isn’t a big deal.

Since I don’t live on a shooting range, don’t record myself shooting and post to the social media land, and have the profession I have, I am very careful about printing in my daily life, and pretty much never carry anything but a very small gun except when doing outdoors activities.

I don’t disagree with anything you said at all but most of these dudes claim to be carrying Glock 19s (and similar sized guns) around daily. I always wonder “jeez, they really walking around really printing that badly?” But I guess they could just never wear t-shirts but like, I know plenty of people who arent “professional” who have very minimal to no printing in t shirts with G19s so like, wtf? Lol

[Elwin]

I don't know about everyone else on the list but Botkin's problem is that he makes and uses garbage holsters, and Lovell's problem is that he uses those holsters or ones like them.

Oh, and if Haley is still using an Incog, that's another garbage holster problem.

I have to guess a lot of them are also wearing a size too small a T-shirt for concealment to show off the results of their workout routine. You don't have to wear super baggy clothes to conceal a gun in a T-shirt, but I think those of us using them to conceal full size guns would all agree we don't wear as small a shirt as we could otherwise get away with.

[WobblyPossum]

I also have a really hard time concealing a G19-sized gun in a t-shirt unless it’s a size larger than I prefer to wear and made with a certain material. That’s why I primarily wear button-up shirts. If I had to guess, most of the YouTube trainer crowd also doesn’t carry G19-sized guns day in and day out regardless of what they say. I’m guessing there are a lot more P365-sized guns than there are G19-sized guns getting tucked into their pants. As has already been mentioned, the majority of those guys claim to use holsters that a lot of us think are suboptimal as well.

[Joe in PNG]

I've got 3 guns pistols I've tried to carry concealed- Glock 19, 1911, and Beretta 92. I've got the same make & type of holster for each (CCC Gestalt).
Of the 3, the Glock just seems to poke out more, even in situations where the 1911 or 92 hide just fine.

[BillSWPA]

Good concealment is why I almost always carry a 10 shot subcompact 9mm rather than a mid-size gun like a G19. The likelihood that I will have to go someplace where concealment really matters is higher than the likelihood of the extra five cartridges making a difference.

[Clusterfrack]

For me, a G19 w/iron sights in a JMCK wing claw is so easy to conceal that I can wear a sMedium T shirt.

Add an optic, and I might have to start dressing around the gun.

[JCN]

why can’t professional instructors seem to conceal in a t shirt? I can and I’m not a professional instructor. Kind of makes it hard to take them seriously in some regards.

I'm going to take a WAG and say they don't want to reduce printing because they want to demonstrate their ZOMG fast skills on Instatubetok.

My normal AIWB carry gun holster is very deeply tucked behind the belt and very tight to my body. It adds at least 0.5-0.75 to my draw.

It's not what I would use to a "class" because my belly would be raw from scraping and thumbnail digging, so if I went it would be a little more forgiving of a holster selection.

Different priorities for different people in different scenarios, I guess?

[camsdaddy]

It’s like taking concealment advice from a cop. There are very few NPE’s for cops. I’m guessing these trainers are similar. They are mostly in gun friendly environments and do not have to live in the real world.

[MountainRaven]

Oh, and if Haley is still using an Incog, that's another garbage holster problem.

Probably using the new Safariland Incog-whatever-it's-called.

[Sig_Fiend]

Again; this whole thread is kinda silly and pointless but still it just kind of nags at me… why can’t professional instructors seem to conceal in a t shirt? I can and I’m not a professional instructor. Kind of makes it hard to take them seriously in some regards.


Because most people don't pay attention to detail. For example, the average person that buys relatively cheap tires for their car, or whatever shoes happen to be available at Academy at the time. The small details usually don't matter to them as much as checking the box and moving on. Nothing against them. In fairness, time is limited and there are always trade-offs, so people have legitimate compromises they have to make sometimes. Some are, however, just sloppy IMO.

I would also say it seems most people aren't what I would call "optimizers". There's probably a specific technical term for this. I'm sure everyone knows what I mean. The "optimizer" is someone that actually reads tire reviews and puts a lot of thought into buying what they're going to be riding on for the next 15-30K miles, because it kind of matters if you care about stability and performance. They'll also buy purpose-built shoes from a niche company, because they care about their feet, performance, traction, etc.

PF, by definition, is full of optimizers. As evidence for this claim, I submit to you this little mod by Lost River, to improve the J-frame (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41988-Who-still-carries-a-J-Frame-Why&p=1034413&viewfull=1#post1034413); beautiful in its simplicity. There are countless other examples of that here. The social influencer community, decidedly not so much. Most of them seem to be checking boxes for that Instagram fame. Most of their stuff is just surface-level gun entertainment, often pushing cringe products and sloppy techniques. Modern day equivalent to gun magazines, with oddball authors, writing cringe articles, pushing bad ideas on entire generations. ;)

[paherne]

I think, based on actual experience, that most instructors suck at concealing pistols because most instructors that are not cops do not actually conceal carry pistols all the time. I said it. This is especially true for high speed, low drag former military instructors. Lovell didn't have a gun on his person when a crackhead/meth-head showed up at his rural property, overdosing. He then completely managed to miss-manage the situation and transport the subject in his personal vehicle to the hospital, while speeding. Yeah, I would not do that. People make fun of my J-frame in the m pajamas/shorts waistband, but I have a gun. Most PROFESSIONAL instructors, other than Tom Givens and a bunch of former cops don't carry all the time. Watch what happens when you go take a class. Who has to switch out carry guns or get geared up?

[RJ]

PF, by definition, is full of optimizers.

I never thought about this, but you are right.

[RJ]

Watch what happens when you go take a class. Who has to switch out carry guns or get geared up?

Yeah.

Standing on the line for my Rangemaster Combative Pistol class in Ruskin FL a couple years ago, despite Tom's WRITTEN NOTICE on the class registration to WEAR YOUR CARRY GUN, and multiple repeated verbal notices prior to class getting underway, no less than THREE PEOPLE had to sheepishly go back to their vehicle to get kitted up while the rest of us stood around waiting. Geez.

[rob_s]

John Lovell? Some videos of him printing like crazy in t-shirts.

Lucas Botkin? Yep! Massive printing in his tees too.

Jason Pike/Froogman Tactical guy

Mike Glover (The rare time hes in a t-shirt and not a button up)

Shawn Ryan


Who?

[rob_s]

PF, by definition, is full of optimizers.

Satisficers are satanists.

[fatdog]

Youtube and Instagram have produced actors, not instructors, in so many cases.

Many are also compromised by their commercial relationships/sponsorships. So it is sorta like getting your firearms insights from Hollywood to trust some of these internet video celebs.

As cited, lots of LE's don't master concealment because it is not as big of a concern to them. Lots of the LE and ex.mil trainers don't have the first clue about context for somebody who lives and works in the corporate or business NPE world since they never have.

I don't follow any of the folks cited because I understand the natural pollution in their content that comes from never living in my context.

[Gadfly]

When I first got hired on, the only gun issued or approved was a 96D. So the though of true concealment was a fantasy for me. that is a fantastic gun for shootability, but not concealability. So I am sure I printed big time in my IWB Summer Special holster carried at 4 o'clock.

Times change, and now a P365 carried AIWB is always on me, and it conceals soooo much better. I doubt I will ever EDC a G19 size gun once i retire. But a 356 or 365XL will probably be my EDC for quite some time. If someone finally makes a quality 15rnd mag for a Glock 48, I may swap back to glock.

[Eric_L]

I think, based on actual experience, that most instructors suck at concealing pistols because most instructors that are not cops do not actually conceal carry pistols all the time. I said it. This is especially true for high speed, low drag former military instructors. Lovell didn't have a gun on his person when a crackhead/meth-head showed up at his rural property, overdosing. He then completely managed to miss-manage the situation and transport the subject in his personal vehicle to the hospital, while speeding. Yeah, I would not do that. People make fun of my J-frame in the m pajamas/shorts waistband, but I have a gun. Most PROFESSIONAL instructors, other than Tom Givens and a bunch of former cops don't carry all the time. Watch what happens when you go take a class. Who has to switch out carry guns or get geared up?

Part of the reason Claude Werner carries small guns, well concealed. I emailed a few questions years ago. One thing he wrote- “I always have a gun on me, unlike those 10 mm homos….” (Or close)

[vcdgrips]

To repeat a variation of my self. For me ( 6’2’’ ish, 205 ish, 44L coat 34 waist) it is not that hard to wear and conceal a G17 w and RDS presuming quality purpose built gear.

I must acknowledge that they are different body types and many BTDT folks have aches and pains and injuries I will never have that might preclude what I do for them.

The last class I taught/took had me rigged up like every other class I have taken since 2010, Full Sized Glock, AIWB in Kydex, Wilderness type belt.

Because I am not a BTDT guy like many instructors, I really try to employ a modified EDGE (Thx BSA) method of teaching in which I ‘

Encourage the student/Explain to the student what we are doing/going to do
Demonstrate-to the student the process
Guide-the student thru the process
Enable/Empower/ the student to do the process on their own and Evaluate them against a disclosed standard.


Ramble follows:

The best way to do that, IMHO is to be able to demo to standard with the equipment that the class generally is using and /or in the mode I am otherwise advocating for i.e.
Effectively concealed EDC.


All of this to say- the practices of certain instructors may call into question if a particular instructor is right for you.
It also advises that majority of the ones who really know what they are doing can be getting older and /or are teaching open enrollment less etc such that you might want to train w said folks before you simply can no longer do so.

Finally: If I had the opportunity to train with somebody like Mike Pannone, his gear choices or lack thereof would not be driving my train as opposed to the body of his professional and competitive experiences and how that body of knowledge could make me a better shooter and someone who could otherwise better read the world to avoid interpersonal conflict in the first place.

[YVK]

Kind of makes it hard to take them seriously in some regards
Thoughts?


10 likes for the thread.

Basically everything already been said upthread. Those dudes wanna impress chicks, or uninitiated clientele, or their fanboys. They run full sized guns to get better results, when G19 is generally at the top of a reasonably concealable size. They run holsters that don't do jack for concealment for most people like Trex or Tier 1 or straight drop stuff without any active feature because fast, and then add another print point of a mag in a sidecar pouch. Concealment assessment standard is standing motionless in front of the mirror while puffing the chest out. Taking them seriously requires a serious effort, on par with getting behind those who teach trigger control shooting tuned 2011s or recoil management while running comped 9 mm pistols.

[Dave Williams]

I think, based on actual experience, that most instructors suck at concealing pistols because most instructors that are not cops do not actually conceal carry pistols all the time. I said it. This is especially true for high speed, low drag former military instructors. Lovell didn't have a gun on his person when a crackhead/meth-head showed up at his rural property, overdosing. He then completely managed to miss-manage the situation and transport the subject in his personal vehicle to the hospital, while speeding. Yeah, I would not do that. People make fun of my J-frame in the m pajamas/shorts waistband, but I have a gun. Most PROFESSIONAL instructors, other than Tom Givens and a bunch of former cops don't carry all the time. Watch what happens when you go take a class. Who has to switch out carry guns or get geared up?

One of the many things I love about Farnam : he and his people are always heavily armed.

I’ve been watching some John Murphy videos on YT, and he does not print despite being quite well armed.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Most licensed folks don't carry anyway and I'm sure most USPSA types around here don't (before the law banned carry). All the discussion of AIWB styles and most use big old spaceman sized holsters and rigs with those strap on belts. A few use carry gear (10%) at best. I doubt they practice much with carry draws.

I'm an OWB on the hip guy for many reasons and big old floppy shirt or winter/fall vest (not shoot me, warmth oriented) always worked. Funny how most advanced classes run hot and the USPSA dudes here were horrified at the idea of making a carry gun hot after the match. YOU MIGHT SHOOT SOMEONE!

[Clusterfrack]

Most licensed folks don't carry anyway and I'm sure most USPSA types around here don't (before the law banned carry). All the discussion of AIWB styles and most use big old spaceman sized holsters and rigs with those strap on belts. A few use carry gear (10%) at best. I doubt they practice much with carry draws.

I'm an OWB on the hip guy for many reasons and big old floppy shirt or winter/fall vest (not shoot me, warmth oriented) always worked. Funny how most advanced classes run hot and the USPSA dudes here were horrified at the idea of making a carry gun hot after the match. YOU MIGHT SHOOT SOMEONE!

There's a subset of folks who treat guns as sports equipment, and some of them lack the respect needed to handle (or own) a firearm. When I find myself on ranges with rules like that, I'm extra careful because that's a clue that there will be incompetent people handling guns.

On the other hand, I've run into people who do stupid things with guns and justify it with "Big Boy Rules". Again, it's a disrespect of firearms. Honestly, I'm not sure which is worse.

Blatantly printing a CCW is a similar clue. Lack of respect, going through the motions, feels above the rules, etc. Not a good look for an instructor.

[rdtompki]

I can't see any excuse for printing given the carry options/suppliers available today. Dress around the gun, carry a smaller gun, don't carry. I find the C2 very easy to conceal AIWB; of course there is always some contortion that might cause a momentary print of the RDS hood, but who's going to notice that. Avoid back flips on the dance floor and you'll be good.

[mmc45414]

I also wonder in some cases they have probably been doing some reps so they will be dialed in when it is time for video, and their shirts might be a little stretched out from repeated presentations.


I have to guess a lot of them are also wearing a size too small a T-shirt for concealment to show off the results of their workout routine. You don't have to wear super baggy clothes to conceal a gun in a T-shirt, but I think those of us using them to conceal full size guns would all agree we don't wear as small a shirt as we could otherwise get away with.
So, if I am wearing a slightly larger shirt so that it will not print on my gut, ur telling me this will be a tacticool advantage? Hmmmm..... :cool:

[MVS]

C'mon bro, nobody is paying enough attention to notice anyway.

That and a lot of what has already been said. I fall into this camp, well I used to, I now mostly carry a gun smaller and slightly deeper than I prefer so that I can get good concealment, but guess what, I always have it with me including that 10+ hours a day that I spend a little thing some people call work.

[Le Français]

The “gun tumor” crowd forgets that the real concern is not so much someone noticing and freaking out, but someone noticing and deciding that a free gun is a pretty good deal.

Raise your hand if you have eyes on the back of your head.

[Duelist]

The “gun tumor” crowd forgets that the real concern is not so much someone noticing and freaking out, but someone noticing and deciding that a free gun is a pretty good deal.

Raise your hand if you have eyes on the back of your head.

Both are real concerns, depending on where you work.

If, for example, someone (such as yours truly) were to be legally (or slightly not so) carrying where I work, and someone noticed and freaked out, that someone who was carrying would probably lose their job, especially if they were really doing it “under the radar”. If that someone lost their job in that manner, it might be difficult or impossible to get another in the same field. Having spent a lot of time & treasure getting educated and licensed in this field, and working in it, that would be an economic disaster.

Someone noticing and deciding to get a cool free gun would be a different kind of disaster.

[Joe in PNG]

There's worse things than people freaking out or trying to steal your gun- and that's getting noticed by someone who loudly wants to talk about what gun you are carrying- and then tell you all about how you made the wrong choice in gun, caliber, carry ammo, sights...

[MVS]

The “gun tumor” crowd forgets that the real concern is not so much someone noticing and freaking out, but someone noticing and deciding that a free gun is a pretty good deal.

Raise your hand if you have eyes on the back of your head.

Which is literally the number one reason I continue AIWB, leaning forward into a machine means no printing from behind.

[Le Français]

Both are real concerns, depending on where you work.

If, for example, someone (such as yours truly) were to be legally (or slightly not so) carrying where I work, and someone noticed and freaked out, that someone who was carrying would probably lose their job, especially if they were really doing it “under the radar”. If that someone lost their job in that manner, it might be difficult or impossible to get another in the same field. Having spent a lot of time & treasure getting educated and licensed in this field, and working in it, that would be an economic disaster.

Someone noticing and deciding to get a cool free gun would be a different kind of disaster.

Fair enough, and very true. Although there’s nothing quite like being suddenly murdered (or so I’m reliably informed).

[HCM]

I’ll start off by saying that this thread is kind of silly and pointless. I would also like to add in that I’m not trying to disrespect anyone or make claims about a persons abilities. With that said I would like to point out an observation that has kind of “bothered” me for years…

Professional “pistol” instructors cant seem to conceal very well…

I always worried about printing back when I started carrying AIWB about eight years ago. While I have since dialed in my gear to pretty much eliminate most printing in a t shirt, back then I still had some printing. However, once I started seeing all these big name instructors printing BADLY I stopped caring as much.

But its still always bothered me… why do so many “big name” experts seem to print like crazy when wearing a t shirt?

Just watched a video of Travis Hailey doing draws from concealment under a normal t-shirt with a G19 sized gun. He was printing so badly that even the “sheeple” would notice from a mile away. Why?

Seen another video yesterday of Travis Kennedy/Kennedy Defensive Solution using a G19 size gun under a normal t-shirt and again; not just a little printing but a lot of very OBVIOUS printing.

Does all this matter? Nope! Not really but I cant help but wonder why so many experts cant seem to properly conceal a pistol under a t-shirt.

John Lovell? Some videos of him printing like crazy in t-shirts.

Lucas Botkin? Yep! Massive printing in his tees too.

Jason Pike/Froogman Tactical guy

Mike Glover (The rare time hes in a t-shirt and not a button up)

Shawn Ryan

Ive seen a ton more but I literally just spent five minutes scrolling through my Instagram feed and calling out what I seen.

Again; this whole thread is kinda silly and pointless but still it just kind of nags at me… why can’t professional instructors seem to conceal in a t shirt? I can and I’m not a professional instructor. Kind of makes it hard to take them seriously in some regards.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I see some of them not printing when using a smaller gun such as the sig 365 but never the G19s they claim to carry every day.

I don’t consider anyone listed in your post a “big name” instructor.

Only two of them (Botkin and Kennedy) can even shoot a handgun at anything beyond a “basic competence” level and only one of those (Kennedy) is a competent instructor.

There’s three names on that list that are people with mental health issues such that I would not be want to be on the range with them.

Printing is the least of their problems.

[MVS]

I don’t consider anyone listed in your post a “big name” instructor.

Only two of them (Botkin and Kennedy) can even shoot a handgun at anything beyond a “basic competence” level and only one of those (Kennedy) is a competent instructor.

There’s three names on that list that are people with mental health issues such that I would not be want to be on the range with them.

Printing is the least of their problems.

C'mon dude. You have to consider Haley big name if for no other reason than the huge growth in training interest the Magpul Dynamics videos produced. There are plenty of biggish name instructors who fill the description of this thread. I guess we would have to define big as selling a lot of classes and having a big online presence, though not yet having the staying power of someone like a Givens or Hackathorn or Spaulding.

[HCM]

Dupe

[HCM]

C'mon dude. You have to consider Haley big name if for no other reason than the huge growth in training interest the Magpul Dynamics videos produced. There are plenty of biggish name instructors who fill the description of this thread. I guess we would have to define big as selling a lot of classes and having a big online presence, though not yet having the staying power of someone like a Givens or Hackathorn or Spaulding.

I’ll give you Haley.

Travis Kennedy has potential if he can break out of the seal bro mindset.

Lucas has definitely upped his shooting skills but he’s a marketer not an instructor.

[FrankB]

I live in a town/county where printing isn’t a big deal. My pants are all Haggar Classic fit dress slacks, size 38x34. I can conceal a CZ P-01 and a 2.5” S&W 686+ with tremendous ease, and do so daily. I actually ask people if they can see anything in my pocket (you’d have to know me 😁), and nobody sees a gun. They’re both hammer fired, and nothing else is carried in that pocket. I stand at the gas station with a full firing grip, and don’t have to clear a garment. My pistol sits under my leg while I’m driving.

[breakingtime91]

I took a haley strategic class years ago, all in all a decent class but I really didn't take away much. One thing I did take away was how my buddy and I were the only ones carrying a gun besides a squared away cop from Oregon. We would take our live carry pistols off (we were doing the simulated training they offer) and put them back on at the end of the day. I remember one of the instructors watching me put on my glock 19 and him asking how it concealed so well. That's a clue.. I carry a p2000 constantly now and it doesn't print, thanks to JM custom and smart clothing choices that don't scream I carry a gun. That includes dressing preppy and wearing flippy floppies

[the Schwartz]

Printing can be avoided by dressing correctly or, in current parlance, by ''dressing around the gun" and I would expect anyone presenting themselves as a professional firearms instructor to be able to demonstrate their competence by doing so.

While I am far from a professional firearms instructor, at 6'2'', 187 pounds, it is easy to conceal a Glock 17 year 'round provided that I dress accordingly. If, like a lot of folks, I were to let myself ''get a little soggy around the middle'', I would need to adjust my wardrobe accordingly. But, even then it can be done.

As for the YT/Insta/TikTok video ''training'' videos, it is, at least to my mind, worth remembering that they are worth exactly what you are paying for them. Quality....real quality...from great instructors is gonna cost.

[breakingtime91]

After I pondered this thread some I realized the only instructor I really care to train with anytime soon is kyle defoor. His stance on how a carbine should be run and his approach to pistol shooting is something I really mesh with.

[Mercworx]

Youtube and Instagram have produced actors, not instructors, in so many cases.

Many are also compromised by their commercial relationships/sponsorships. So it is sorta like getting your firearms insights from Hollywood to trust some of these internet video celebs.

As cited, lots of LE's don't master concealment because it is not as big of a concern to them. Lots of the LE and ex.mil trainers don't have the first clue about context for somebody who lives and works in the corporate or business NPE world since they never have.

I don't follow any of the folks cited because I understand the natural pollution in their content that comes from never living in my context.



I do not follow any of the YouTubers listed. Though I am familiar with Lovell, something was always off putting about him. I’ve always looked at the YouTube crowd as “entertainers” putting on a show. I watch some firearms channels but strictly along those lines. I find Johnny Bs spicy Friday series pretty funny at times. To me they are basically tv shows. I find it unfortunate that some are turning to them for real guidance.

[Jim Watson]

If I notice a Gun Bump at a location on bellybutton or hip were guns are commonly holstered, I assume it is legit, the punks don't often wear holsters.

[Dave Williams]

After I pondered this thread some I realized the only instructor I really care to train with anytime soon is kyle defoor. His stance on how a carbine should be run and his approach to pistol shooting is something I really mesh with.

I paid for my son to take a Defoor class, money well spent. The only downside is when I tell my son my 25 yd B8 score, he wants to know how fast I did it in.

[Yung]

https://youtu.be/tQcwjuX56ps

[DMF13]

. . . do not actually conceal carry pistols all the time. . .

Watch what happens when you go take a class. Who has to switch out carry guns or get geared up?Me. I switch out.

Little did I know I was being judged as someone who is not serious about carrying for doing so, but I have very good reasons for switching out, and it's because I am serious about carrying concealed "all the time."

No one probably notices that I'm taking off my Glock 19 and holster, and securing it, to get out an identical Glock 19 and holster.

Why, you might ask?

The first reason is the carry gun gets used minimally, to reduce the wear and tear on the gun that might be needed to save my life, or the life of someone else. I'd rather beat up the spare in training. So, I take off the carry gun, loaded with pricey carry ammo, secure that gun/holster, and switch to the unloaded spare gun/holster, that I will be using with much less expensive ammo. Less administrative loading/unloading, and the carry gun, is clean and immediately ready to go at the end of the day.

The second reason is, I've been to several classes where either the instructor's policy, or range policy, is it's a "cold range," and we are only to load when on the range, and the instructor says to go "hot." So even if the range doesn't have a "cold range" policy, unless the instructor specifies ahead of time it's a "hot" range, I'd be starting "cold." So ditching the loaded carry gun, for the unloaded spare is a convenient way to start, and has the advantages mentioned above, related to switching from carry to training ammo, and having the carry gun ready to go at the end of the day. Also, the two classes I attended where the instructor ran a "hot" range, that wasn't specified ahead of time, so the safe bet was to start with an empty gun.

The last reason is silly, but is done to comply with my employer's policies. We aren't allowed to use anything other than issued ammo in our guns. Therefore, if I'm doing a class on my own time/dime, I'm also providing my own ammo. So I ditch the carry gun, and switch to the personal gun. It's unlikely anything bad would happen, that would result in the bosses learning I used something other than issued ammo, and then cause me trouble at work, but why take the chance?

So before you all assume the guy or gal switching out gear is someone who doesn't carry all the time, and isn't serious about carrying, you might consider there might be good reasons for swapping out guns for class.

[1slow]

Me. I switch out.

Little did I know I was being judged as someone who is not serious about carrying for doing so, but I have very good reasons for switching out, and it's because I am serious about carrying concealed "all the time."

No one probably notices that I'm taking off my Glock 19 and holster, and securing it, to get out an identical Glock 19 and holster.

Why, you might ask?

The first reason is the carry gun gets used minimally, to reduce the wear and tear on the gun that might be needed to save my life, or the life of someone else. I'd rather beat up the spare in training. So, I take off the carry gun, loaded with pricey carry ammo, secure that gun/holster, and switch to the unloaded spare gun/holster, that I will be using with much less expensive ammo. Less administrative loading/unloading, and the carry gun, is clean and immediately ready to go at the end of the day.

The second reason is, I've been to several classes where either the instructor's policy, or range policy, is it's a "cold range," and we are only to load when on the range, and the instructor says to go "hot." So even if the range doesn't have a "cold range" policy, unless the instructor specifies ahead of time it's a "hot" range, I'd be starting "cold." So ditching the loaded carry gun, for the unloaded spare is a convenient way to start, and has the advantages mentioned above, related to switching from carry to training ammo, and having the carry gun ready to go at the end of the day. Also, the two classes I attended where the instructor ran a "hot" range, that wasn't specified ahead of time, so the safe bet was to start with an empty gun.

The last reason is silly, but is done to comply with my employer's policies. We aren't allowed to use anything other than issued ammo in our guns. Therefore, if I'm doing a class on my own time/dime, I'm also providing my own ammo. So I ditch the carry gun, and switch to the personal gun. It's unlikely anything bad would happen, that would result in the bosses learning I used something other than issued ammo, and then cause me trouble at work, but why take the chance?

So before you all assume the guy or gal switching out gear is someone who doesn't carry all the time, and isn't serious about carrying, you might consider there might be good reasons for swapping out guns for class.

EXACTLY !

[WobblyPossum]

Me. I switch out.

Little did I know I was being judged as someone who is not serious about carrying for doing so, but I have very good reasons for switching out, and it's because I am serious about carrying concealed "all the time."

No one probably notices that I'm taking off my Glock 19 and holster, and securing it, to get out an identical Glock 19 and holster.

Why, you might ask?

The first reason is the carry gun gets used minimally, to reduce the wear and tear on the gun that might be needed to save my life, or the life of someone else. I'd rather beat up the spare in training. So, I take off the carry gun, loaded with pricey carry ammo, secure that gun/holster, and switch to the unloaded spare gun/holster, that I will be using with much less expensive ammo. Less administrative loading/unloading, and the carry gun, is clean and immediately ready to go at the end of the day.

The second reason is, I've been to several classes where either the instructor's policy, or range policy, is it's a "cold range," and we are only to load when on the range, and the instructor says to go "hot." So even if the range doesn't have a "cold range" policy, unless the instructor specifies ahead of time it's a "hot" range, I'd be starting "cold." So ditching the loaded carry gun, for the unloaded spare is a convenient way to start, and has the advantages mentioned above, related to switching from carry to training ammo, and having the carry gun ready to go at the end of the day. Also, the two classes I attended where the instructor ran a "hot" range, that wasn't specified ahead of time, so the safe bet was to start with an empty gun.

The last reason is silly, but is done to comply with my employer's policies. We aren't allowed to use anything other than issued ammo in our guns. Therefore, if I'm doing a class on my own time/dime, I'm also providing my own ammo. So I ditch the carry gun, and switch to the personal gun. It's unlikely anything bad would happen, that would result in the bosses learning I used something other than issued ammo, and then cause me trouble at work, but why take the chance?

So before you all assume the guy or gal switching out gear is someone who doesn't carry all the time, and isn't serious about carrying, you might consider there might be good reasons for swapping out guns for class.

I do the same thing. I don’t think that’s what the quoted poster was referring to. I took his comments to be about the guys who actually carry a J Frame or P365-sized gun and switch to a full-size pistol to shoot the class with.

[davisj]

…Avoid back flips on the dance floor and you'll be good.

108285


https://youtu.be/8WgxUoky4kg

[paherne]

Me. I switch out.

Little did I know I was being judged as someone who is not serious about carrying for doing so, but I have very good reasons for switching out, and it's because I am serious about carrying concealed "all the time."

No one probably notices that I'm taking off my Glock 19 and holster, and securing it, to get out an identical Glock 19 and holster.

Why, you might ask?

The first reason is the carry gun gets used minimally, to reduce the wear and tear on the gun that might be needed to save my life, or the life of someone else. I'd rather beat up the spare in training. So, I take off the carry gun, loaded with pricey carry ammo, secure that gun/holster, and switch to the unloaded spare gun/holster, that I will be using with much less expensive ammo. Less administrative loading/unloading, and the carry gun, is clean and immediately ready to go at the end of the day.

The second reason is, I've been to several classes where either the instructor's policy, or range policy, is it's a "cold range," and we are only to load when on the range, and the instructor says to go "hot." So even if the range doesn't have a "cold range" policy, unless the instructor specifies ahead of time it's a "hot" range, I'd be starting "cold." So ditching the loaded carry gun, for the unloaded spare is a convenient way to start, and has the advantages mentioned above, related to switching from carry to training ammo, and having the carry gun ready to go at the end of the day. Also, the two classes I attended where the instructor ran a "hot" range, that wasn't specified ahead of time, so the safe bet was to start with an empty gun.

The last reason is silly, but is done to comply with my employer's policies. We aren't allowed to use anything other than issued ammo in our guns. Therefore, if I'm doing a class on my own time/dime, I'm also providing my own ammo. So I ditch the carry gun, and switch to the personal gun. It's unlikely anything bad would happen, that would result in the bosses learning I used something other than issued ammo, and then cause me trouble at work, but why take the chance?

So before you all assume the guy or gal switching out gear is someone who doesn't carry all the time, and isn't serious about carrying, you might consider there might be good reasons for swapping out guns for class.

Switching out your carry G19 for your training G19 wasn't what I was talking about. Or, switching out your duty mags/ammo for training mags/ammo. The guy who pocket carries an LCP and straps on a G34 for the class. Or, the guy who rolls up with no gun on at all. I HATE cold ranges with a passion and I understand why those rules are in place and I would never do this, but I know folks at matches with a J-frame in their pocket while they are walking around with empty race guns in their holsters because who would ever come out to a range and rob a bunch of guys with no bullets in their guns? Could never happen, amirite?

One of the big criticisms I had of a famous training duo from 10-12 years ago was that they were demonstrating cool guy techniques sans armor/helmet, wearing essentially competition belts, shooting cute little Knight's carbines and looked fantastic while doing so. Meanwhile, I looked like a special ed gorilla trying to replicate the techniques while wearing a MICH/ACH, CIRAS with plates, full belt with cuffs, respirator, kneepads, gloves, a super heavy 6721 and three mags for primary and secondary, etc.

I've criticized another famous former military instructor for holding a class about home defense/home invasions and doing it in full kit with helmets/plates/rifles. I worked more honest human victim home invasions than any other cop I've met because of where I worked. None of the victims would have ever had time to gear up before being assaulted.

Much of what I see from former high/speed-low drag guys is cosplay with guns, not actual techniques built on real events. Situational awareness is far more important than split times, but it's hard to teach and not that sexy.

I get if an instructor comes to the range from the airport and is not geared up, but otherwise, if they can legally carry, they should be strapped.

[Duelist]

I do the same thing. I don’t think that’s what the quoted poster was referring to. I took his comments to be about the guys who actually carry a J Frame or P365-sized gun and switch to a full-size pistol to shoot the class with.

I actually don’t have a problem with that: those guys (me) are actually carrying. Gearing up with a training or comp gun makes sense - unless the class is about running a J or small auto, I usually use a bigger gun so I’m not holding the class back with my tiny low capacity gun, getting the max benefit from the class, etc.

I apply the work to my little carry guns outside of class time. Or at the revolver roundup.

It isn’t that big of a deal.

[SCCY Marshal]

...if they can legally carry, they should be strapped.

We're going to need to completely change the firearms "community" for this to happen. Caliber dick measuring and clutching of pearls about snubs/pocket autos being hard to shoot will have to stop. The continuing stigmatization of pocket carry will also need to go away. We'll probably also have to stop talking up holsters and be cool with clips. Most people who genuinely carry day-to-day have a pocket-sized gun, likely in a pocket. Or maybe - maybe - something larger in a minimal carry holster or on a clip. This thread might further be an indication that G19 sized guns are actually not consistently concealable by the average person over a daily timeline. To paraphrase Darryl Bolke on roughly this topic on some podcast or other, "nice colostomy bag, dude."

Looking at historical anecdotes from all over the country, people dropped small autos and revolvers in pockets or just tucked them in a waistband. Ladies had a whole category of muff pistols, beating fannypack or purse (as we know the modern duffel bag of junk) carry by generations.

We beat the drum of minimum calibers, gel data, full hand grips that print more, aggressive texturing that eats skin/clothes, and talk up range trips that pocket guns won't encourage (particularly in approved calibers) and then act surprised that the average person straps on the brick and quickly nopes on out. Or a more dedicated person starts finding excuses to leave it behind over time. Then none of them want to look at lesser, more difficult guns because we have poisoned the well through our own dialog.

Extra points for the jello test brigade currently loving small, centerline fixed blades. But an 8-shot .22 snub that is the equivalent of stabbing someone eight times with a #2 Phillips screwdriver from much farther away is at the same time a questionable piece of carry gear.

The phrase Concealed Carry has concealed as an operative.
Merriam Webster 10th Dictionary:

"conceal

transitive verb
1 : to prevent disclosure or recognition of
2 : to place out of sight"

"carry
verb
transitive senses
8 a : to wear or have on one's person b : to bear upon or within one"

So a concealed carry firearm is one which is born upon a peson in an unrecognizable manner to prevent disclosure of its presence. So the two primary and explicitly named functions of the entire class of firearms are to be borne in the first place and done so discretely. Maybe it is time we place caliber, comparative jello chart metrics, capacity, ergonomics in prolonged shooting sessions, etc. as lesser considerations after the two primary requirements have been met in the first place.

[Rex G]

Some thoughts:

I have never considered a normal T-shirt, in my normal size, to be adequate for true concealment. That was true when I had some modest amount of meat in my deltoids and lats. Now that I have lost muscle mass, and my ass has fallen off, well, hopeless. I would normally wear a Medium, these days, but need to go XL or XXL to really hide anything, if the shirt is a T-shirt. Most many T-shirts look good, two or three sizes up. Fortunately, I generally do not care, being retired LE, from a background only one generation removed from White Trash. Being a ragamuffin grandpa just helps me blend into the background. Folks may notice, but then avert their eyes.

A shirt conceals better if the fabric has some amount of structure to it. That does not describe most T-shirts. T-shirts are are meant to fit close, to look decent.

Not everyone on your list is what I consider a “professional instructor.”

To train to clear a shirt, a T-shirt would seem adequate, for the range or other training environment. Shirts with more-substantial clear more easily, so, a T-shirt presents a kind of worst-case, to clear.

[PNWTO]

Quick thoughts, although better minds than myself have given good thoughts-

Those influencers need to print, otherwise how could folks tell what the latest and greatest accessory is?

There’s a broad gap between an armed lifestyle and marketing an armed lifestyle.

[Joe in PNG]

I starred my CC journey with a Glock 27, and eventually ended up moving down through a Kel Tec 380 to a PPK to a CZ2075 to a Kel Tec PF9 and ended up with a Baby Browning in the pocket.
I then moved up to a J frame then a Shield for pocket carry (which I still have for that purpose), but discovered the miracle of how a good belt and a holster not only makes the carry of a full size gun possible, but easy.

I believe a lot of gun people don't get that last bit, even pros. They snag whatever cheap holster is in the gun shop, throw it on a Walmart belt, and stop because it flippy floppies all over and prints more than the local Officemax.

[MVS]

We're going to need to completely change the firearms "community" for this to happen. Caliber dick measuring and clutching of pearls about snubs/pocket autos being hard to shoot will have to stop. The continuing stigmatization of pocket carry will also need to go away. We'll probably also have to stop talking up holsters and be cool with clips. Most people who genuinely carry day-to-day have a pocket-sized gun, likely in a pocket. Or maybe - maybe - something larger in a minimal carry holster or on a clip. This thread might further be an indication that G19 sized guns are actually not consistently concealable by the average person over a daily timeline. To paraphrase Darryl Bolke on roughly this topic on some podcast or other, "nice colostomy bag, dude."

Looking at historical anecdotes from all over the country, people dropped small autos and revolvers in pockets or just tucked them in a waistband. Ladies had a whole category of muff pistols, beating fannypack or purse (as we know the modern duffel bag of junk) carry by generations.

We beat the drum of minimum calibers, gel data, full hand grips that print more, aggressive texturing that eats skin/clothes, and talk up range trips that pocket guns won't encourage (particularly in approved calibers) and then act surprised that the average person straps on the brick and quickly nopes on out. Or a more dedicated person starts finding excuses to leave it behind over time. Then none of them want to look at lesser, more difficult guns because we have poisoned the well through our own dialog.

Extra points for the jello test brigade currently loving small, centerline fixed blades. But an 8-shot .22 snub that is the equivalent of stabbing someone eight times with a #2 Phillips screwdriver from much farther away is at the same time a questionable piece of carry gear.

The phrase Concealed Carry has concealed as an operative.
Merriam Webster 10th Dictionary:

"conceal

transitive verb
1 : to prevent disclosure or recognition of
2 : to place out of sight"

"carry
verb
transitive senses
8 a : to wear or have on one's person b : to bear upon or within one"

So a concealed carry firearm is one which is born upon a peson in an unrecognizable manner to prevent disclosure of its presence. So the two primary and explicitly named functions of the entire class of firearms are to be borne in the first place and done so discretely. Maybe it is time we place caliber, comparative jello chart metrics, capacity, ergonomics in prolonged shooting sessions, etc. as lesser considerations after the two primary requirements have been met in the first place.

Claude, is that you? If so I hate to disagree, but in large part do. Snubs are harder to shoot especially if you don't practice, and since you are talking about average gun carriers, they don't practice. Will a snub make them feel better? Sure and if that is all you're after go for it. I AM NOT saying a snub can't be shot well. I know it can. I have taken snub specific classes and performed well but still choose not to carry one because there are better options for me and even though I dry fire daily and live fire weekly I don't want to add the extra practice a snub would require.

As for pocket carry, if I had to pocket carry I probably just wouldn't. My pockets are for other things first off. Secondly I just can't do it well. I can conceal a small auto much more effectively than I can a pocket gun. Not to mention it is bad placement for me from the standpoint of constantly having stuff against it at work. Don't even get me started on draw. Yes I know, if you start with your hand on the gun the draw is great. Again, we are talking about regular people here? Their hand won't likely be on the gun when they need it and then good luck drawing.

Where I will agree is about the attitude given to people who don't do things just like us. I used to be that way and try to now realize that what works for one individual may not work for another for a whole host of reasons. Of course there is a difference between that and someone just making excuses.

I can't comment on the fixed blade centerline thing as they aren't legal to carry here.

In the end it is all about compromises and we all are willing to accept our own level of that. For me it has come down to a slim mid size semi auto (such as a 365XL) that mimics the full size guns I shoot well and I can still practice or compete or take classes with when I want to.

[DMF13]

The guy who pocket carries an LCP and straps on a G34 for the class. Or, the guy who rolls up with no gun on at all.
I understand who you're talking about. However, maybe you missed the guy discreetly securing the carry gun, and assumed he ditched a tiny gun, or showed up un-armed. I mean, why would someone want to hide the fact that they've secured a gun somewhere? Because who would ever come out to a range and burglarize vehicles of guys with guns? "Could never happen, amirite?"

All you see is a guy strapping on gear, without.having seen what happened prior, and might assume he didn't arrive "strapped."

One of the big criticisms I had of a famous training duo from 10-12 years ago was that they were demonstrating cool guy techniques sans armor/helmet, wearing essentially competition belts, shooting cute little Knight's carbines and looked fantastic while doing so. Meanwhile, I looked like a special ed gorilla trying to replicate the techniques while wearing a MICH/ACH, CIRAS with plates, full belt with cuffs, respirator, kneepads, gloves, a super heavy 6721 and three mags for primary and secondary, etc.[This I agree with 100%. I have critiqued instructors for demoing with gear that is drastically different than the students. Like you said what they are teaching might not actually work with the student's gear. Second, even if what they are showing can be done with what the students have, many students will lack confidence in the technique, thinking the only reason the instructor can do it is because of the different gear.

If an instructor shows up to teach, using a tricked out 2011, with a red dot, for a class where everyone is using a stock Glock with iron sights, then many students will lose faith in what's being taught. Even if what's being taught is helpful, many will believe it only works when you have the "$4000 custom gun."

We all know many people are inclined to seek "hardware solutions" to "software problems." So instructors who demo with gear drastically different from the students are sending a very bad message.

[CCT125US]

On printing.....

Me:
Going out with the family for lunch, dressed in shorts, schmeadium t-shirt, harsh words, pepper baton, stabby pen, P2000sk. No printing or outward display of gear whatsoever.

Wife:
Black shirt with "Magpul" across the front.

Damnit, they're going to know, but we survived the Beer Barrel.

[SCCY Marshal]

Claude, is that you?

No, but I'll take a compliment where I can get it.