How to you handle this situation

[GJM]

A second suspect has been charged in connection to an armed robbery outside of Scheels in Billings last month.

Nathen Patrick Doyle, 21, pleaded not guilty Wednesday in Yellowstone County District Court to counts of robbery and tampering with evidence. Following his arraignment, Doyle’s mother, Brandi LaRaye Garcia, pleaded not guilty to accusations of harboring Doyle while he had an active warrant for his arrest.

Officers with the Billings Police Department pulled into the parking lot of Scheels on July 8 responding to a robbery, the Gazette previously reported. Victims told police they were sitting in a parked vehicle when a gray sedan trapped them in their space.

The victims said at least four people got out of the sedan, all of whom were carrying firearms; one person had an assault-style rifle and the others had handguns, according to court documents. A suspect allegedly demanded one of the victim’s wallet, putting a gun to his head and threatening his life, before all of the suspects drove away from the scene.

[Lost River]

I likely would reverse my way out. Making contact with their vehicle and pushing it out of the way if driving forward was not an option.

That is strictly because:

A. Most sedans these days are not that heavy.

and

B. I am trained to do so.

What I definitely would not do is engage in a gunfight. The bad guys had the numbers in their favor, and they chose the time and place for the fight/confrontation. None of those favor you.

Worst case scenario, give them your wallet, but don't push a bad fight.

[jnc36rcpd]

Hard to say based on a short news article. Once the victim was blocked in, the alternatives were ram the other vehicle, bail out and r un, or draw a weapon and prepare to repel boarders. Once the gun was to his head with likely other bad guys around his car, surrendering his wallet may have been the best option.

In theory, he might have thrown the door open and sent the assailant sprawling or used a cool weapon takeaway to snatch the pistol from his temple, but I assume this did not occur in an early eighties Chuck Norris movie,

[1slow]

When I was younger I drove demolition derby once. Hitting cars at full throttle in reverse was SOP. Dirt track.

Depending on relative car size reverse ramming could be good, especially if you caught them 1/2 way out of car at impact. This would reduce the problem somewhat.

[JohnO]

Some situations are unwinnable!

In this case using a firearm for self defense has a near zero probability of success. Ramming & pushing the blocking vehicle could instigate a ballistic response from the perps. Perhaps the victim/s choose the only viable option, compliance and relied unfortunately on fate.


https://youtu.be/ZYwzTFPAgCc

[Dave Williams]

When I have to sit in a parked car, I always think of Jeff Cooper’s quote from pg 28-29 of TO RIDE, SHOOT STRAIGHT, AND SPEAK THE TRUTH:

“One does not sit in one’s car (armored or otherwise) and wait.”

[GJM]

Seems like a choice between relying on the good will of people who are conspicuously not exhibiting good will or pursuing a defense against a group that outnumbers you.

Pretty sure Jeff Cooper would say to start on the guy with the rifle….

[Clusterfrack]

Some situations are unwinnable!

In this case using a firearm for self defense has a near zero probability of success. Ramming & pushing the blocking vehicle could instigate a ballistic response from the perps. Perhaps the victim/s choose the only viable option, compliance and relied unfortunately on fate.


Seems like a choice between relying on the good will of people who are conspicuously not exhibiting good will or pursuing a defense against a group that outnumbers you.

Pretty sure Jeff Cooper would say to start on the guy with the rifle….

Sounds like more than one robbery victim in the trapped vehicle? If it's an unarmed spouse, or even an armed one, that makes the situation even more grim. The time to fight or run was before the bad guys surrounded their vehicle.

If it was one perp, the gun-to-head might offer some opportunities.

[Doc_Glock]

Seems like a choice between relying on the good will of people who are conspicuously not exhibiting good will or pursuing a defense against a group that outnumbers you.

Pretty sure Jeff Cooper would say to start on the guy with the rifle….

Hand over the wallet relying on the fact that this group already had the ability to ambush, and kill everyone in the vehicle and has not, yet. Given that fact I feel compliance in the moment has a higher probability of coming out alive.

[Caballoflaco]

I guess it depends on when you realize you’re being ambushed, who else is in the car with you and your own personal life and risk factors.

If you don’t realize what’s happening until they’re at your B pillar my gut reaction is compliance / social engineering unless they try to move you to second location.


I know it’s a long episode and maybe slightly off topic, but this interview with undercover ATF agent Frank D'Alesio who worked motorcycle gangs is filled with examples of a dude talking/thinking his way out of lots of sketchy situations involving sketchy people.

https://podbay.fm/p/the-team-house/e/1690182300

I don’t remember if I read it here, or heard it on a podcast somewhere, but I know that SouthNarc recently said that the social engineering side of self defense is what he was most interest in studying these days.

Eta:
Pretty sure Jeff Cooper would say to start on the guy with the rifle….

If the dude with rifle is behind the passenger side c pillar and dude with a pistol is your window I don’t think Cooper’s advice would apply here. I’m sure you’ve seen enough bodycam videos to know how unwinnable a fight from inside a car is when you’re surrounded by four folks with guns. The success rate I’ve seen is 0% and I’ve watched lots of videos of dudes in cars getting shot by the police.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Nuance, tell the family members to get down low. Hand over wallet. Having done three or four car defense classes, shooting, driving, bailing out, through the glass, etc. this seems a low probability shoot out for the victim. If one must though, the rest of the family hit the floor.

Anecdote, under fire from the Gods. Driving home, a block away - a hailstorm unleashed with true orange, baseball sized hail. Made it to the drive way. Told the wife to get under the dash, put my body over her. Car was totaled. The neighbor had the hail come through his siding like cannonballs. Quite impressive. The concrete still showed impact hits, years later.

[feudist]

That's a Kobayashi Maru situation. A carload of robbers, all of them armed who achieve tactical surprise and positional dominance on a victim whose mobility is very limited.
Compliance worked in this case. It's probably the best course of action no matter how well armed or good you are with a weapon.
If they started shooting or hustling you into a car then it would be the time for desperate measures.
Practicing the preclusion and prevention of such situations is probably even more important than practicing dealing with them.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Officers with the Billings Police Department pulled into the parking lot of Scheels on July 8 responding to a robbery, the Gazette previously reported. Victims told police they were sitting in a parked vehicle when a gray sedan trapped them in their space.

I decided to look at Scheels on line. If this is the right place, the parking lot has lots of spaces that would hard to block you in, as there would room front or back, unless you were against another car.

108079

Something to think about. I grant you that I don't as I try to park close as I and the boss don't like to hike. Close, when we shop, there are always lots of folks around.

[JohnO]

Practicing the preclusion and prevention of such situations is probably even more important than practicing dealing with them.

Yup! Don't let yourself get into that position in the first place.

So you need to go and you park in a spot that can't be blocked by one vehicle. But you don't see the perps coming for you. Shame on you! Were you looking at your phone?

Now you spot them too late but decide to quickly vamoose. Given the prevailing attitude of the virtually untouchable urban youths carrying guns what are the chances they will throw shots at you??

Here for example is a video from a LEO friend demonstrating the flippant attitude of what's out there. A Saturday mid-afternoon at the intersection of State & May in New Haven, CT. Jaywalker does not like that the pickup driver beeped at him so he shoots at the truck. Driver was uninjured.


https://youtu.be/ZxsgaqYlTy0

[GJM]

I decided to look at Scheels on line. If this is the right place, the parking lot has lots of spaces that would hard to block you in, as there would room front or back, unless you were against another car.

108079

Something to think about. I grant you that I don't as I try to park close as I and the boss don't like to hike. Close, when we shop, there are always lots of folks around.

Yes, that is the right place. We regularly visit there, when shooting a match in Billings, and park in the SW corner, because it can be shady and is close to the grass for Astro.

A little bit of information would help me decide -- do they just want your wallet or do they mean worse. I would be very interested in what weapons they had, how they handled them, and how organized they appeared.

[SouthNarc]

I was robbed 9 times in two years of undercover work. 7 of those were in and around vehicles.

The suggestions offered so far point to the trend in the industry of fetishizing gear, marksmanship and gun handling over tactics and thinking.

I’ll offer some more opinions and flesh this out when I finish this class this evening in WA.

[PNWTO]

In brief-

Ambush-based armed robbery? At face value and as presented: Compliance. Everything is replaceable; there’s some personal caveats to that, however.

If the armed robbery turns into an abduction or worse? Then things get weird and that’s probably too nuanced to flesh out in discreet points.

[DDTSGM]

[QUOTE=GJM;1500246] A little bit of information would help me decide -- do they just want your wallet or do they mean worse. I would be very interested in what weapons they had, how they handled them, and how organized they appeared.

A couple of observations on suggestions so far as they relate to the last, bolded, quote:

1) Driving away FORWARD may be the most/best viable option, even if another vehicle is parked nose into you. I say this because, unless you are in the habit of ramming by backing every vehicle that stops behind you in a parking lot, by the time you recognize that folks are unassing the vehicle, are armed, and get your vehicle into reverse, one or more of the crew will most likely be clear of your vehicle.

As you launch backwards, if you are successful in moving the vehicle far enough to the rear that you can turn your vehicle to drive away you have 1) backed past the assailants that are out of the vehicle and 2) must turn one way or another as driving forward to exit the kill zone. In doing this you are in essence driving through the ambush twice at less than optimal speed for survival.

In a crowded, heck in even a semi-crowded parking lot, the likelihood of pushing the vehicle you have rammed into another vehicle is high. You are unlikely to move two vehicles backwards fast enough to escape any gunmen on foot.

Going forward has the advantage of moving you away from the advancing gunmen. Their is the same risk of pushing a vehicle parked in front of you into a vehicle on the other side of their aisle. This might be somewhat mitigated by how hard you can turn left or right as you push the vehicle in front of you out of the way.

Of course in both situations your ability to drive through an airbag deployment may be a critical component of success or failure.

2) Based on my experience working to build better vehicle stop tactics for patrol, officers seated in the unit parked a car length behind the stopped vehicle are unable to exit their vehicle, or draw in response to a surprise attack from the stopped vehicle. In these cases the assault was initiated while the officer was on the radio - which might approximate someone in a parked vehicle talking to a passenger in the vehicle as the assault unfolds.

Likewise, if the assailants exit the violator vehicle as soon as the patrol unit stops, the officer is not able to get boots on the ground, or draw from a seated position before the assailants are out of the vehicle and on the move toward the unit, generally passing the front bumper and able to engage the officer from close range.

These situations all involve folks who were supposed to be paying attention to what was happening in front of them.

Even if you are primed for what is about to take place, action is quicker than reaction, it is even worse if there is a moments lag because you have to recognize what is unfolding in front, or behind, of you.

In the situation we are discussing, by the time you would gather info about what weapons they had, how they handled them, and how organized they appeared, it would be too late to act in any manner other than what the victims did. Initiating resistance would be likely to result in a one-sided gunfight where the bad guys have the distinct advantage.

JMO YMMV

ETA: when parking in such a lot I usually park far enough away from the store that I don't think folks will be pissed if I use my space and the one in front because 1) my truck is big and I don't like sticking out to the rear more than mid-sized vehicles parked around me; and 2) because I prefer to drive forward rather than back in parking lots. Now I can consciously add a third reason. :rolleyes:

[1911Nut]

Let's see . . . . I'm armed, but four armed people have me pinned in and one has a gun to my head demanding my wallet.

My wallet contains about $50-$60 cash, two credit cards, my driver's license, my concealed carry permit, and two medical insurance cards. A few simple phone calls can alert appropriate folks that my cards/identification have been stolen, rendering them useless to those who might steal them.

No way I am going to engage in a gunfight under the current situation as described.

If I bail out of my vehicle and attempt to run away, I will like receive a smack to the head and have my wallet taken. Even if I avoid this and break free and begin to run, there is at least a fair chance I might be shot, simply because I pissed off the bad guy(s).

If I decide to ram my vehicle into the one blocking me, the odds that the four guys are going to begin shooting at me probably increase dramatically.

If I successfully ram the other vehicle and the four bad guys run away, I will probably have $2500 + worth of damage to my vehicle at a minimum. And a lot of paperwork to complete with my insurance company. And time spent procuring a replacement vehicle while my Arizona vehicle gets hauled to a Montana body repair shop.

So . . . . give them my wallet and contents, report the cards stolen, file a report with the Billings police, kick myself in the ass for not being more alert and getting caught in the trap, and try to use the experience as a lesson learned.

[KevH]

There is an assumption here that if you comply and give over your stuff you will be fine. I've never been to Montana so maybe your dirtbags are more empathetic than ours here. Around here sometimes they'll take your stuff and still kill you or your loved ones.

I know we talked about it on here after it happened, but here is Ersie Joyner's story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i83tq1p8c2U

The answer is really not to put yourself in the situation to begin with.

I hate trying to speculate on what I would do without more details, but given the limited information, my truck is going in reverse and pushing the suspect vehicle out of the way (or at least damaging it as much as possible) I'm then driving like hell, calling 911 and heading to a police station.

My bet is that there is more to this story, but that's just me.

[Navin Johnson]

Very hypothetical without more information

They survived so that is a win

Seems like there is something else going on

[camel]

Engaging ones vehicle against another without raking into consideration if you are doing it incorrectly. Might make the airbags go off depending on year make model. Something to think about.

[Caballoflaco]

Engaging ones vehicle against another without raking into consideration if you are doing it incorrectly. Might make the airbags go off depending on year make model. Something to think about.

Or engage the automatic ignition shutoff that a lot of cars have now-days.

[camel]

Or engage the automatic ignition shutoff that a lot of cars have now-days.

Yea that as well.

[JohnO]

Or engage the automatic ignition shutoff that a lot of cars have now-days.

Or the inertial fuel pump cutoff switch if its a Ford. 1st hand knowledge on that one.

[camel]

Or the inertial fuel pump cutoff switch if its a Ford. 1st hand knowledge on that one.

Yeah. Those switches….

[Lost River]

Engaging ones vehicle against another without raking into consideration if you are doing it incorrectly. Might make the airbags go off depending on year make model. Something to think about.


Or engage the automatic ignition shutoff that a lot of cars have now-days.


Or the inertial fuel pump cutoff switch if its a Ford. 1st hand knowledge on that one.

If one does not know what they are doing, and is not trained to deal with those issues, then yes, that is a likelihood. However, there are techniques to overcome such issues and push blocking vehicles out of the way, as well as vehicles that may box you in on the road. This has been taught for years for guys that have done work overseas. I have pushed vehicles out of my way when things looked like they were going to get ugly. Example: Like when an Iraqi in an elevated position swung a DsHK heavy machine gun (bigger than a .50 cal) around on us at a checkpoint and was pointing it directly at us. We were basically in a funnel and I was not going to be at their mercy, so I pushed the vehicle in front of me all the way down the funnel until we were through, and we got out of there. The airbags did not deploy.

Side note. The dudes in the truck in front of us were absolutely shitting themselves as it was the last thing they were expecting, since I was gaining some serious speed pushing them. :cool:

[Exiledviking]

...so I pushed the vehicle in front of me all the way down the funnel until we were through, and we got out of there. The airbags did not deploy.

So, in a case like that; would you slowly move forward and lock bumpers with the vehicle in front of you and only then step on the accelerator or would you build up some speed before hitting the bumper of the vehicle in front of you?

[Lester Polfus]

A few thoughts:

1) Our egos tell us we can Jason Bourne our way out of any situation. This probably isn’t one of them. Giving up your wallet, cell phone etc is probably the smart move. An attempt to rape your wife in front of you or move you to a secondary crime scene is probably your cue to die loudly.

2) one of the reasons we train with firearms is so we do as little discovery learning as possible in a gun fight. If you have zero training on crash and bang driving, the middle of a for realsies four-on-one robbery is not the time to do discovery learning.

3) If you have been to crash and bang school, some of what you know may be outdated. Anti lock brakes were the new hotness when my uncle sent me to four glorious days of spinning out Crown Vics. Last week, I deliberately tried to run into a cardboard box with our new Toyota and the car literally took over and braked the car the car to a stop before impact. My understanding is that many stability control systems won’t allow a j-turn, not that I have any business doing a j-turn because I haven’t practiced one in ten years.

3) Again, I assert that your average armed citizen in this country would be far better served leaning on the skillsets of intelligence officers moving under non-official cover, or under cover (not plain clothes) cops, than leaning on the skillsets of jocked up, carbine carrying, plate carrier wearing pipe hitters.

4) I’m super interested in what Southnarc has to say.

[Warped Mindless]

A few thoughts:


3) Again, I assert that your average armed citizen in this country would be far better served leaning on the skillsets of intelligence officers moving under non-official cover, or under cover (not plain clothes) cops, than leaning on the skillsets of jocked up, carbine carrying, plate carrier wearing pipe hitters.


This 100%.

Something I tell people in my life: “if you are truly interested in self defense and keeping yourself and your family safe, forget taking that fifth firearm class and go take an executive protection class over a weekend or at least read a book on it and then modify the lessons to fit your life and situations.”

An executive protection/close protection dude who has experience doing solo protection work can teach people more about keeping safe than the vast majority of high speed tactical ninjas can.

[rob_s]

A second suspect has been charged in connection to an armed robbery outside of Scheels in Billings last month.

Nathen Patrick Doyle, 21, pleaded not guilty Wednesday in Yellowstone County District Court to counts of robbery and tampering with evidence. Following his arraignment, Doyle’s mother, Brandi LaRaye Garcia, pleaded not guilty to accusations of harboring Doyle while he had an active warrant for his arrest.

Officers with the Billings Police Department pulled into the parking lot of Scheels on July 8 responding to a robbery, the Gazette previously reported. Victims told police they were sitting in a parked vehicle when a gray sedan trapped them in their space.

The victims said at least four people got out of the sedan, all of whom were carrying firearms; one person had an assault-style rifle and the others had handguns, according to court documents. A suspect allegedly demanded one of the victim’s wallet, putting a gun to his head and threatening his life, before all of the suspects drove away from the scene.

are there missing details?

Sounds targeted like they knew the “victims” or had been scoping them out?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I once asked a car salesperson about the automatic breaking. What if I need to plow through a zombie? He said, if you hit the gas, it overrides the braking. I don't know if this is true. It bothered as sometimes I saw the need to keep going.

Another idea - if stupid, so be it. My car has a Starlink - SOS - person comes on, asks what's up, GPS to send for the emergency folks. Press that and they will hear a conversation of: Don't shoot me, here's the wallet. Also, hitting your fob alarm?

Does that make the person more likely to shoot? Hit the noise before they even get to your car. I was walking to my car and the typical - can I talk to you, it's an emergency - miscreant started to approach. He was next to my car and I thought the alarm would be fun. Then something distracted him. I was ready with the I'm sorry, I can't help you - routine. I still had plenty of space. Went into the store and told the desk that they had such a fellow annoying the elderly and they called the law.

The incident does sound a touch targeted.

[Hot Sauce]

An executive protection/close protection dude who has experience doing solo protection work can teach people more about keeping safe than the vast majority of high speed tactical ninjas can.

Not a bad idea.

Who’s the SouthNarc of executive protection training?

[feudist]

Not a bad idea.

Who’s the SouthNarc of executive protection training?

PatMac wrote Sentinel: Become the Agent in Charge of Your Own Protection Detail.
Three bucks on Kindle.
I thought I had read it,but evidently not.
It's got 4.7/5 out of 1245 ratings, FWIW,

[mmc45414]

My bet is that there is more to this story, but that's just me.

The incident does sound a touch targeted.
Not one or two but four dudes roll up on one particular car, jocked up with a rifle and what all else, just to snag a wallet? And leave content with just a wallet?

[DDTSGM]

Not a bad idea.

Who’s the SouthNarc of executive protection training?

Haven't read the PatMac book, so no comment.

I'm a firm believer that if you want to increase, teach situational awareness you should read, and should encourage/make family members to read The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Bescker.

In terms of further reading I'd go with: Left of Bang and Just Two Seconds. Being a nice guy, I left Just Two Seconds in my office bookcase for the guy who replaced me, looking at the price now, I really wish I hadn't.

https://www.amazon.com/Just-2-Seconds-Gavin-Becker/dp/0615214479?asin=0615214479&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1

https://www.amazon.com/Just-2-Seconds-Gavin-Becker/dp/0615214479?asin=0615214479&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1

ETA: Just ordered the Pat Mac book.

[Joe S]

PatMac wrote Sentinel: Become the Agent in Charge of Your Own Protection Detail.
Three bucks on Kindle.
I thought I had read it,but evidently not.
It's got 4.7/5 out of 1245 ratings, FWIW,

Without having the expertise to really judge it, I thought that book was REALLY worth it as an introduction to the topic.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just thinking out loud. If I saw a car block another and 4 guys surround it with rifles, I'd think it was the plain clothes law or a cartel assassination as compared to 'Give me your wallet'.

[SouthNarc]

If I'm reading this correctly there are two "good" guys in a car blocked in by another car. Stationary vehicle surrounded by "at least" 4 people, one with a rifle.

There is no gun or car solution for that problem.

Compliance is the only immediate solution.

Compliance works. I'm living proof of it. I complied in 8 of those 9 robberies I referenced. The one where I actually didn't cost me some hearing in my left ear after a fight over a gun in a car. Why didn't I comply with that one? Because it didn't feel like the others.

No one can teach you that. No one can teach you when you should comply and when you shouldn't.

Honestly I have no idea if that guy was pulling the trigger on me when I made my initial move or if my initial move caused an involuntary clenching of his hand and he squeezed that round off accidentally. That was certainly what his attorney argued.

That round missed my head by about an inch.

Anyway the point is that despite being a violent felony, the vast majority of robberies don't end with a killing. Thousands of people that live in housing projects and bad neighborhoods are robbed as part of life. Me saying that doesn't minimize the urgency of robbery.

If you're gonna make the move at gunpoint, authentically feigning compliance is how you set that up. Using speech to impose friction on motor processes and splitting attention is critical. An example of that would be when they say "Gimme your wallet" you reply "Dude you want the wallet, the cash or my watch?" 1,2,3 things he's thinking about now. Using your hands to pattern compliance works well to set up a draw. You hand over your watch. your wallet, your key fob, and THEN your muzzle.

None of these are range skills and there is no dot-torture, 5x5, or live fire analog for this.

[MistWolf]

I don’t know what I’d do in this situation. Probably hand over the wallet and hope things don’t escalate.

However, when it comes to pushing vehicles out of the way, ramming speed often isn’t a good choice. I’ve been blocked a few times parking on the streets of LA. I got out by placing the bumper against the offending vehicle, dropping the tranny into first gear and pushing. The vehicles moved without sheetmetal damage or setting off airbags. Another option to consider for those in 4x4s- put the T-case in 4lo.

I’m not suggesting this would have been a good choice in the situation being discussed. Just saying pushing instead of ramming is likely to be more effective in moving vehicles out of the way.

[JohnO]

How about this one. You stopped in a 7-11 to get a drink in the WRONG neighborhood. The guys in the store are just as bad as their friends outside.

I think this recording is displaying at 2x speed.


https://youtu.be/z4o9TzTp39I

[DDTSGM]

Haven't read the PatMac book, so no comment.

I'm a firm believer that if you want to increase, teach situational awareness you should read, and should encourage/make family members to read The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Bescker.

In terms of further reading I'd go with: Left of Bang and Just Two Seconds. Being a nice guy, I left Just Two Seconds in my office bookcase for the guy who replaced me, looking at the price now, I really wish I hadn't.

https://www.amazon.com/Just-2-Seconds-Gavin-Becker/dp/0615214479?asin=0615214479&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1

https://www.amazon.com/Just-2-Seconds-Gavin-Becker/dp/0615214479?asin=0615214479&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1

ETA: Just ordered the Pat Mac book.

ETA: Arrived today, opened Amazon envelope at 6:00ish, done by 8:30. Very general, probably will serve as a 'yeah, I do that' or 'yeah, I need to start doing that again' for most here.

Good jumping off point for someone who doesn't have any idea about situational awareness or tactical thinking.

Probably too basic for most folks here, though.

YMMV

[Lester Polfus]

I don’t know what I’d do in this situation. Probably hand over the wallet and hope things don’t escalate.

However, when it comes to pushing vehicles out of the way, ramming speed often isn’t a good choice. I’ve been blocked a few times parking on the streets of LA. I got out by placing the bumper against the offending vehicle, dropping the tranny into first gear and pushing. The vehicles moved without sheetmetal damage or setting off airbags. Another option to consider for those in 4x4s- put the T-case in 4lo.

I’m not suggesting this would have been a good choice in the situation being discussed. Just saying pushing instead of ramming is likely to be more effective in moving vehicles out of the way.

It's much harder when the guy with the assault rifle is mag-dumping into the passenger compartment of the car you're sitting in.

[Caballoflaco]

How about this one. You stopped in a 7-11 to get a drink in the WRONG neighborhood. The guys in the store are just as bad as their friends outside.

I think this recording is displaying at 2x speed.


https://youtu.be/z4o9TzTp39I

What am I missing here? somebody shot through a window and everybody in the store got down and was looking for cover. It might have been a gang hit or something, but guys in the store didn’t look like they were breaking any laws at the time the shooting started.

[1slow]

If I'm reading this correctly there are two "good" guys in a car blocked in by another car. Stationary vehicle surrounded by "at least" 4 people, one with a rifle.

There is no gun or car solution for that problem.

Compliance is the only immediate solution.

Compliance works. I'm living proof of it. I complied in 8 of those 9 robberies I referenced. The one where I actually didn't cost me some hearing in my left ear after a fight over a gun in a car. Why didn't I comply with that one? Because it didn't feel like the others.

No one can teach you that. No one can teach you when you should comply and when you shouldn't.

Honestly I have no idea if that guy was pulling the trigger on me when I made my initial move or if my initial move caused an involuntary clenching of his hand and he squeezed that round off accidentally. That was certainly what his attorney argued.

That round missed my head by about an inch.

Anyway the point is that despite being a violent felony, the vast majority of robberies don't end with a killing. Thousands of people that live in housing projects and bad neighborhoods are robbed as part of life. Me saying that doesn't minimize the urgency of robbery.

If you're gonna make the move at gunpoint, authentically feigning compliance is how you set that up. Using speech to impose friction on motor processes and splitting attention is critical. An example of that would be when they say "Gimme your wallet" you reply "Dude you want the wallet, the cash or my watch?" 1,2,3 things he's thinking about now. Using your hands to pattern compliance works well to set up a draw. You hand over your watch. your wallet, your key fob, and THEN your muzzle.

None of these are range skills and there is no dot-torture, 5x5, or live fire analog for this.



I think this is the clearest statement. Especially the part about how the situation felt.

[Zincwarrior]

A second suspect has been charged in connection to an armed robbery outside of Scheels in Billings last month.

Nathen Patrick Doyle, 21, pleaded not guilty Wednesday in Yellowstone County District Court to counts of robbery and tampering with evidence. Following his arraignment, Doyle’s mother, Brandi LaRaye Garcia, pleaded not guilty to accusations of harboring Doyle while he had an active warrant for his arrest.

Officers with the Billings Police Department pulled into the parking lot of Scheels on July 8 responding to a robbery, the Gazette previously reported. Victims told police they were sitting in a parked vehicle when a gray sedan trapped them in their space.

The victims said at least four people got out of the sedan, all of whom were carrying firearms; one person had an assault-style rifle and the others had handguns, according to court documents. A suspect allegedly demanded one of the victim’s wallet, putting a gun to his head and threatening his life, before all of the suspects drove away from the scene.

Real world? you die.

[Dov]

Sounds like more than one robbery victim in the trapped vehicle? If it's an unarmed spouse, or even an armed one, that makes the situation even more grim. The time to fight or run was before the bad guys surrounded their vehicle.

If it was one perp, the gun-to-head might offer some opportunities.

The correct solution is not to get into the trap, boxed in, in the first place. Doesn't Navy's Top Gun teach something simialr?

I was targeted for a car jacking once, when driving a cheap economy car in a good neighborhood. Was in parking lot after getting a coffee and killing bit of time before meeting friend and his wife for dinner ~20 minutes away.

I spotted the carjackers when they drove behind me and two people got out, and starting flanking from behind where I was parked one person to right and one to left.

I went to grip but didn't draw because I could see their hands were empty, wanted to drive off but that car was a manual and first gear was geared to high and I didn't want to risk trying to drive off and having it stall.

I saw the guy on driver side wave off his partner, because he noticed something probably that I was watching both of them, and they got in their car and left.

They looked very coordinated, smooth, and practiced.

Next day after adrenaline wasn't making thinking so difficult I was real unhappy with my response, ideal situation would to drive off or while I had that car at least not be sitting in it as a target.

Exiting the car might have triggered action on their part, and no idea how many people beyond the driver where in their car, and while there was no car parked behind me & I was parked so I could drive forward out of parking spot, exiting would have trapped me with narrow path between cars and my own car door blocking retreat, with only open path being towards people flanking me.

Lessons I believe I learned:

Sitting in a car makes you a target.

Driving away ASAP is by far best "tactic", to facilitate that vehicle wise don't want manual tranny or other barriers to rapid transition from parked to gone. Also think EV's & hybrids have some real advantages with their high torque at 0 RPM and not having to "start engine", also diesels with their high torque worth thinking about.

Even with temperamental 1st gear in that car if I had started leaving at first hint of suspicion I would have been away before I was sure there was a problem. After being targeted over a cheap car I no longer feel any hesitation to leave where I am at, or avoid turning into my home if I have any suspicions about vehicles or people around me.

I didn't care that I only had G26 and J frame in my front pockets vs something better, I was just wishing my car had automatic tranny or proper granny 1st gear.

Don't think I'll own a manual tranny vehicle again.

I almost never sit in a car anymore unless actually driving, on very rare occasions I do I pick parking location very carefully and am ready to leave in a hurry.

[camel]

What am I missing here? somebody shot through a window and everybody in the store got down and was looking for cover. It might have been a gang hit or something, but guys in the store didn’t look like they were breaking any laws at the time the shooting started.

That’s just life in New Haven Ct.

[camel]

It's much harder when the guy with the assault rifle is mag-dumping into the passenger compartment of the car you're sitting in.

It takes a sense of nervousness to realize a situation for someone who lives in high crime areas to respond appropriately like an undercover officer would or should. Or everything’s not about when do I pull my gun. A lot has to be said about knowing your territory.

[MistWolf]

It's much harder when the guy with the assault rifle is mag-dumping into the passenger compartment of the car you're sitting in.

I’m sure it is!

[willie]

Whether or not school is in session affects frequency of police calls, and here this fact determines where I go and when. Location of rehab facilities, halfway houses, large apartment complexes, and homeless shelters are other variables that can determine an area's safety. Housing projects are to be avoided. There was one here called Death Valley. I went there many times by myself when looking for my students who ceased attending. When I retired, several adults living in this place told me that residents thought I was crazy and were afraid of me. They said that my being viewed as crazy was the reason nobody killed me. When I retired after 16 years in this school district, I was shell shocked. For real.

[Ed L]

Here is a similar example from Dallas. A plain clothes police officer was conducting surveillance in a parked "covert vehicle" late at night when a car pulled behind behind him and three people emerged. At least two of them pointed guns at him.

They demanded that the plainclothes officer get out of the car, which he did. Once out of the car, the plain clothes police officer placed some distance between him and the teens and draws his gun and there begins the gunfight. The officer backs away rapidly as he is firing. At least two of the robbers were shooting at him--one from the officer's "covert car", and one from the driver's side of the suspects' original car. The officer was wounded in the leg and the three robbers fled with their original vehicle and the one stolen from the officer. They were later apprehended in Louisiana.

Here is a link to the original article which has a very good video of the incident:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/dallas-plainclothes-officer-shot-carjacking-leads-arrests-louisiana-teens

Here are some screen cuts from the video.

108306

I expanded the photo. I put a red arrow pointing to what I assume is the police officer and a green arrow above what appears to be the undercover car, a Dodge Challenger.

108305

[WobblyPossum]

A coworker and I were just discussing this type of situation earlier today. We regularly do surveillance alone in sketchy areas, wearing civilian clothes in unmarked vehicles. There’s enough violent crime and just weird stuff in Albuquerque that I sometimes wear soft armor concealed under my shirt on surveillance.

[MickAK]

If I don't like the look of any vehicle or it's occupants I lean on the horn until the vehicle leaves. I don't look directly at the occupants while doing so. I keep them in view but pretend to be looking angrily at something else. People up to no good don't like loud attention grabbing noises. Looking directly at the occupants might cause a conflict where one didn't need to exist.

Aside from that as usual what Southnarc says.

[ubet]

Billings is really going downhill. Ms13 is moving in, lots of drugs and people trafficked through it, and the cops are more worried about handing out traffic tickets than stopping ms13.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Poconnor]

I likely would reverse my way out. Making contact with their vehicle and pushing it out of the way if driving forward was not an option.

That is strictly because:

A. Most sedans these days are not that heavy.

and

B. I am trained to do so.

What I definitely would not do is engage in a gunfight. The bad guys had the numbers in their favor, and they chose the time and place for the fight/confrontation. None of those favor you.

Worst case scenario, give them your wallet, but don't push a bad fight.

This option is one of the reasons I drive a Ford F250; “Truck Smash”

[Dog Face Gremlin]

Remember when BG's were ramming the car behind at a light to set off the car's air bag then getting out and robbing them........

[Hambo]

My bet is that there is more to this story, but that's just me.

I lean that way, but there are some brazen douchebag carjackers out there. At the very least I expect there may have been a "I did see some sketchy dudes near the bank/store/whatever, but I didn't think much of it."

[NathanD]

Kinda seems like a series of failures. Fail to pay attention to the car load of sketchy people showing up. Failure to realize that things were going downhill til it was too late.

I’m sure there’s a bunch of John Wicks out there for this situation, but reality is your best bet is to predict and avoid the problem beforehand.