P320 and Safariland Interface Issues

[KevH]

I'm posting this in the LE forum since we carry these holsters more than your average guy. I've talked at length in other posts about how I believe a lot of the ND issues with the P320 are due to a combination of the lack of trigger safety (the tab like on a Glock or pretty much every other striker-fired polymer pistol) and the poor interface with Safariland and other modern duty holsters.

I apologize for the garage photos, but my kids are asleep and I didn't want to make a bunch of noise.

The holster is the latest version of the Safariland 7360RDS with the band around it. The gun is a completely stock SIG M18. The round pictured is 45 ACP Winchester 230gr FMJ which I'm using to represent a finger or other foreign object.

The gun is completely seated in the holster with both the SLS and ALS mechanism engaged and the holster has been properly adjusted for the correct tension.

Use your imagination to picture how a ND could happen and keep in mind most LE P320's are not a M18 with a manual safety.

Also keep in mind if there is a foreign object or if it was a human finger likely the object would be gone after the ND and thus the gun would pass all safety/function checks as would the holster.

I'll let the pictures talk:

https://i.imgur.com/XH7gtiSl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZmCMlrbl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/P2ew6ill.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J7JvfMyl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gvC4L2xl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lBp4UoUl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3YEMCu9l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/eZmzvGel.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FAoca74l.jpg

...and if you think the new Mexican-made 6360RDS series holsters are any better with this I assure you they are not.

Sariland's answer to this is the SafariVault which just came out and is only sort-of available at the moment.

[KevH]

...and I'm not trying to hate on Safariland. I've used their stuff for 23 years. It's usually great and the company and their reps are great to work with.

This I think is a big issue though.

[jnc36rcpd]

My former agency mandates a TLR-7 be mounted on issue Glock 17 and 19 pistols. (I'm sure there is an exemption for the chief of police with his Glock 26). That would seemingly allow a tighter holster with less risk of an unintentional discharge of a holstered weapon. Of course, that comes with significantly lower lumen output than a TLR-1 HL or the equivalent.

I suspect that policy, which applies on and off duty, is designed to protect the chief amd city from criticism and liability in the event of a low light shooting. That said, 500 lumens is nothing to sneeze at, especially among us relics who were amazed at the blazing 65 lumens of a Surefire 6P and fretted about being blinded for life if a 200 lumen light reflected off a mirror.

That said, while I'm no lumen/candela expert, I suspect larger lights will always have more capability than smaller lights. We may be stuck with the SafariVault or competitor equivalents if we want to keep the bigger lights.

[jlw]

For comparison, on the left is a very recently produced WML holster from US Duty Gear:

https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/358458802_757715016354836_193717730542987229_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=Rj2UBnhxgToAX-OW6GS&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=00_AfD1aBRG_QW_jjeAPnU-zcvVLPfg1KXDJgOktxCja__lrw&oe=64D35D97

[KevH]

My former agency mandates a TLR-7 be mounted on issue Glock 17 and 19 pistols. (I'm sure there is an exemption for the chief of police with his Glock 26). That would seemingly allow a tighter holster with less risk of an unintentional discharge of a holstered weapon. Of course, that comes with significantly lower lumen output than a TLR-1 HL or the equivalent.

I suspect that policy, which applies on and off duty, is designed to protect the chief amd city from criticism and liability in the event of a low light shooting. That said, 500 lumens is nothing to sneeze at, especially among us relics who were amazed at the blazing 65 lumens of a Surefire 6P and fretted about being blinded for life if a 200 lumen light reflected off a mirror.

That said, while I'm no lumen/candela expert, I suspect larger lights will always have more capability than smaller lights. We may be stuck with the SafariVault or competitor equivalents if we want to keep the bigger lights.

The holster pictured is for a TLR-7. The larger holsters are no different.

[jnc36rcpd]

I stand corrected, Kev. Since I don't have a duty holster for the smaller WML, I should have looked at your photograph more closely.

Have you experimented with the U.S. Duty Gear holster? It looks to be a tighter fit.

[KevH]

I stand corrected, Kev. Since I don't have a duty holster for the smaller WML, I should have looked at your photograph more closely.

Have you experimented with the U.S. Duty Gear holster? It looks to be a tighter fit.

We have several US Duty Gear holsters at work ranging from T&E semi-prototype to production models guys are carrying. Generally the quality is Safariland 6280 circa-2006 if that makes sense although I wish they would polish/dehorn the edges (especially at the bottom) a bit more. It seems like they're about 85% when it comes to that aspect.

Regarding fit on a P320 with WML, I do not have one on hand to play with. I don't think I'm ever going to carry a P320 at work and I don't really want to spend $200 on a holster just to see if they cracked the code on covering the trigger guard. I'll certainly keep an eye out to see if one of our cops buy one.

[AMC]

HCM, what duty holsters are your folks using? And do you guys issue a WML with the handgun? I imagine that most use for your agents is 'plainclothes/concealed' type carry.

[HCM]

HCM, what duty holsters are your folks using? And do you guys issue a WML with the handgun? I imagine that most use for your agents is 'plainclothes/concealed' type carry.

We previously issued the Insight M3X on a limited basis. When we went from the 229 to the 320 we issued everyone a TLR-1 and a compatible duty holster (but not plainclothes holster). Prior to optics we issued a 7000 series for the 320/tlr-1 and the blade tech eclipse polymer pancake style.

When we went RDS we issued the 6390RDS and the Comp Tac - “warrior” kydex pancake style plainclothes for the 320 w/TLR-1 when we went to optics.

WML is issued but not mandated so few leave the TLR-1 on the gun full time. Plus, as posted previously, our issued 6390 RDS have QC/fit issues so some would like to use the WML but don’t because their holster hangs up with the TLR-1?in place. It’s worse with TLR-1 HLs but X-300Us have been ok.

TDLR I see a lot of people running 6390RDS WML without the WML in place.

When we schedule people for annual low light shoot, we tell them in the email to bring their issued WML and their issued handheld flashlight, but we still get a percentage who bring one but not the other or neither.

We have since started issuing new people TLR7As and the 7000 series RDS holster for the 320/TLR7A. The one that looks like it has a reinforcing band around the body.

The CompTac holster is unpopular. Some have modified the old non WML blade tech eclipse to accommodate the optic. Most bought local / national brand kydex pancake /RCS style holsters.

[HCM]

As posted in the July Lawsuit thread when we transitioned to RDS many of the made in Mexico Safariland 6000 series WML/RDS we received were slightly warped and will hang up with a TLR-1, in place. They seem to work OK if you’re willing to spend the money to buy an X300u, but the issue is worse with the TLR-1HL.

A few of the holsters were so warped as to be completely unusable and unsafe. This holster was brand new out of the bag:

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[jnc36rcpd]

I feel your pain. One firearms training coordinator at my former agency decided to purchase only Safariland holsters that would fit our 226's with the TLR-1/Surefire 300 lights. (I don't believe the 7A was available at the time.) This was regardless of whether the officer had a light or even had a legacy 226 without a rail.

The next FTC mandated that all officers mount lights on their weapons. Of course, the newly issued FNS-9 was unreliable with a WML attached until FN replaced the barrels so some pistols were carried without lights attached.

[DaBigBR]

As long as the weapon lights are wider than the trigger guards, they will be room for something to get in. The 320 somewhat exacerbates this with a trigger that does not have a built in safety. I say somewhat intentionally because the number of events that a trigger safety would prevent is totally unknown.

My experience is that the 7TS provides quite a bit less exposure than the 6XXX series. I suppose they could fence the trigger guard a lot higher and that might help, but it would likely affect gripping the gun in the holster and the draw stroke.

[KevH]

https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/safety-bulletin-light-bearing-holsters-for-pistols

I've literally been saying this for nearly three years.

Apparently SIG has now figured it out.

Put the damn tab (trigger safety) on the trigger like you should have done in the first place!

[kev8287]

I don’t think a tab on the trigger will help. There have been several instances of Glocks going off because the trigger was moved. Also the tab only works if half the trigger is moved. I don’t know the dimensions of the Glock trigger on either side of the tab but it is not much. Basically if something gets on the trigger and moves it the gun wil go off.

[Erick Gelhaus]

The nice thing about this combo - US Duty Gear / M&P / X300U with a DG switch - is that no unregistered/unsecured assault keys worn on the other side of my body or a TQ holder can suddenly jump in and cause the pistol to fire.

109349109350109351

If my relatively small fingers can't get in there, doubt very much anything else will.

[HCM]

I don’t think a tab on the trigger will help. There have been several instances of Glocks going off because the trigger was moved. Also the tab only works if half the trigger is moved. I don’t know the dimensions of the Glock trigger on either side of the tab but it is not much. Basically if something gets on the trigger and moves it the gun wil go off.

Another factor is the the curved nature of the Glock trigger across the face on both sides of the trigger safety helps in conjunction with the tab if something only partially engages the trigger.

[DaBigBR]

I don’t think a tab on the trigger will help. There have been several instances of Glocks going off because the trigger was moved. Also the tab only works if half the trigger is moved. I don’t know the dimensions of the Glock trigger on either side of the tab but it is not much. Basically if something gets on the trigger and moves it the gun wil go off.

How many is several, over what period of time, and under what circumstances?

Despite the marketing, I'm not going to call Glock's design "perfection", but you simply do not see "the gun went off in the holster" stories like you do with the 320. You also don't see those stories with the M&P. If you do, there are far fewer occurrences and, in the case of Glock, orders of magnitude more guns in circulation. The tabbed trigger may not solve the problem, but it would appear that it decreases the likelihood.