The Nice Neighborhood and Equipment choice

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Being in a rain soaking morning, I read someone wanting advice about the home defense handgun. Usual revolver vs. semi question from someone that seems new to the game. One thing that touched me was he said - I live in a decent neighborhood with low crime, so under the circumstances, it fits the bill.

The it was a J frame. Doesn't want a rifle or shotgun. I can see that living in AK or the like will influence the choice as to OMG, the bear is eating grandma! We have bears 6 miles off and on the very remote chance I saw one, it decided to eat my artisanal cheese - I have a shotgun with slugs (LOL). But for break in humans? Why are humans in decent neighbors nicer than break in criminals in 'bad' neighborhoods. Certainly that horror show in CT with the girls tortured and burnt alive was in a 'nice' neighborhood.

Thus, I don't see 'decent neighborhood' as a factor in a home SD choice. Just a morning thought.

[HCM]

Being in a rain soaking morning, I read someone wanting advice about the home defense handgun. Usual revolver vs. semi question from someone that seems new to the game. One thing that touched me was he said - I live in a decent neighborhood with low crime, so under the circumstances, it fits the bill.

The it was a J frame. Doesn't want a rifle or shotgun. I can see that living in AK or the like will influence the choice as to OMG, the bear is eating grandma! We have bears 6 miles off and on the very remote chance I saw one, it decided to eat my artisanal cheese - I have a shotgun with slugs (LOL). But for break in humans? Why are humans in decent neighbors nicer than break in criminals in 'bad' neighborhoods. Certainly that horror show in CT with the girls tortured and burnt alive was in a 'nice' neighborhood.

Thus, I don't see 'decent neighborhood' as a factor in a home SD choice. Just a morning thought.

It’s 2023. Criminals are mobile, particularly the smarter / more dangerous variety. They are not you and they don’t think like you. Nice neighborhoods full of nice soft people and their nice things are targets.

There’s an old saying that when the rabbit screams, the fox comes running, but not to help.

[MDFA]

There are no nice neighborhoods anymore, if there ever were. Nice neighborhoods are the Take Out Window for Shitbags... My wife tells me I'm a pessimist. I say I'm a realist. 46 years of Police Work will do that to you...:rolleyes:

[WobblyPossum]

It’s 2023. Criminals are mobile, particularly the smarter / more dangerous variety. They are not you and they don’t think like you. Nice neighborhoods full of nice soft people and their nice things are targets.

There’s an old saying that when the rabbit screams, the fox comes running, but not to help.

Bingo. Criminals have cars just like you and me and they can use those cars to take them from the ghettos of the inner city to the nice McMansions of the the suburbs. If those criminals happen not to actually own a car, they can steal one and use it to commit their crimes. Those criminals also know that the people in the suburbs generally have nice things in their homes and jobs that take them out of their homes for the majority of the week so those homes should be unoccupied during the day.

There are plenty of accounts of home invasions that were originally planned as unoccupied burglaries but the residents just happened to be off that day or they worked nights or this or that. Maybe the guy who used to live in the house you just moved into was slinging dope out of his home and the guys planning to rob him don’t know he’s since moved out and sold his house to you. Tom Givens has written plenty about the myth of the “nice neighborhood.” He’s written fairly recently about violent crime in his nice Florida town. Why wouldn’t criminals find their way to nice areas? Unless you’re robbing drug dealers of their dope and cash, there isn’t much valuable stuff to steal in the hood. Sometimes, those criminals even move to the nice neighborhoods for the same reasons normal people do. That doesn’t mean they stop committing crimes.

Living in a decent neighborhood isn’t some forcefield against violent crime. All it does is decrease your odds of being a victim a little bit.

[HCM]

Bingo. Criminals have cars just like you and me and they can use those cars to take them from the ghettos of the inner city to the nice McMansions of the the suburbs. If those criminals happen not to actually own a car, they can steal one and use it to commit their crimes. Those criminals also know that the people in the suburbs generally have nice things in their homes and jobs that take them out of their homes for the majority of the week so those homes should be unoccupied during the day.

There are plenty of accounts of home invasions that were originally planned as unoccupied burglaries but the residents just happened to be off that day or they worked nights or this or that. Maybe the guy who used to live in the house you just moved into was slinging dope out of his home and the guys planning to rob him don’t know he’s since moved out and sold his house to you. Tom Givens has written plenty about the myth of the “nice neighborhood.” He’s written fairly recently about violent crime in his nice Florida town. Why wouldn’t criminals find their way to nice areas? Unless you’re robbing drug dealers of their dope and cash, there isn’t much valuable stuff to steal in the hood. Sometimes, those criminals even move to the nice neighborhoods for the same reasons normal people do. That doesn’t mean they stop committing crimes.

Living in a decent neighborhood isn’t some forcefield against violent crime. All it does is decrease your odds of being a victim a little bit.

From the man himself:

https://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/2023-08_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf

“Many years ago there were “safe” parts of cities and places to avoid. That has all changed. Modern society is completely mobile, and thugs can be encountered anywhere, at any time.”

[CraigS]

We moved from 20 miles outside of DC to a small town in southwestern Va in 19. In 2020-2021 we both said we are SO d--n glad we made that move. But we both carry 100% of the time away from the house. We both have a 'get home bag' in our car based on a thread here back then about how to get home if you get caught in the middle of one of those 'mostly peaceful' demonstrations. 5 mags for the carry gun, IFAC, knife, light, etc. I am sitting at my desk and the drawer to my right is open. In it there is an M9A1 w/ 20 rnd mag, light, laser, and a spare mag. M9A3 same equipment in the kitchen. Our carry guns are in those same two rooms. Long guns in the safes. I can't imagine any safer place to live, but we take nothing for granted either. EDIT to ad. Guys and gals please check into local idpa or uspsa matches. I just shot my first 2 gun match today. Been shooting pistol matches for about 7-8 years. What I was reminded of today is how competition, even the lowest level, shows you how your stuff works...or doesn't. I got an M&P folding pistol caliber carbine for this match. Put a dot sight on it did maybe 150 rnds of practice last week. The dot was fine but in the match w/ unusual shooting positions I realize I need to space it up 1/4 inch so it is easier to acquire the dot w/o having to smash my face on to the stock. I also found that the pistol grip is kind of short. Probably fits a 15 rnd mag. The 17 and 23 rnd mags all have typical spacers on them and that spacer was dragging on the bottom of my palm so the mag didn't drop free. No spring pushing it out like my M9A1 so it is just gravity. Keep the grip vertical and pulled the spacers off, and problem solved.

[UpDok]

If your "nice" or not so nice neighborhood is in New York State you'll be limited to 10 rounds in a pistol or rifle. For equipment, you'll probably be best served with a 9mm or other duty caliber semi-auto pistol that you are familiar with along with a few loaded magazines and a good flashlight.

New York passed the "SAFE Act" a few years ago to keep people safe from "gun crime" but I doubt it lives up to the hype.

[45dotACP]

Lately, my answer is just "Glock 26"

I got one thinking it would be the gun I carried in the summer, but I wound up carrying it in the winter too. It's just easy. Easy to carry, easy to shoot, easy to find shit for, and in my (not expert) opinion, it is the greatest pistol that Glock ever made. Even better than the 19. And especially better once the MOS version becomes available for we, the peasantry.

[mmc45414]

“Many years ago there were “safe” parts of cities and places to avoid. That has all changed. Modern society is completely mobile, and thugs can be encountered anywhere, at any time.”

This is absolutely correct, but the probability is still a variable. The other day I goofed on my new motorcycle and damn near ran out of gas. I was actually on my way to the range, and was carrying my normal carry gun, but I still backtracked to an area where I was more comfortable getting gas. No need to "poke the bear" on my shiny new bike that would be out of place. Managing a motorcycle at low speed and farting around at a gas pump (with limited visibility with a full-face helmet), is awkward and not conducive to presenting a pistol (both hands are required to flee on a bike) so I did what I could on the limited remaining range and went to a (little) better place to get gas.

I always liked the adages of "If you are carrying a gun do not go to places you wouldn't go if you are not carrying a gun" and "If you really think you are going to need a gun at the grocery go to a different grocery", but some people confuse this with a reason to not carry a gun.

[Scrabble]

Paradoxically, if he were to take advantage of the J-frame's greatest feature and keep it on him at all times, I would argue that he would be in a very strong position compared to most. However, the "nice areas" comment makes me think that the revolver will probably live out its days in a drawer or safe.

[Joe in PNG]

Consider the fact that even the gated neighborhoods will have lawn service, delivery people, roofers, repair people, and others who might not be the most trustworthy people, or especially quiet about where they work. Sometimes those are the only jobs paroled felons can get, and they're not necessarily looking to turn their lives around.

Just food for thought.

[vcdgrips]

FWIW/YMMV

It is just not that hard to carry a more capable gun than a J frame.

As it is just not that hard, I choose to carry a more capable gun than a j frame 99% of the time.

In my direct and anecdotal experience, the vast majority of folks that default to j frame carry are not nearly as good with them as they are with a bigger gun either nor are many particularly good with them at all beyond a few feet.

Worst Case Scenario in a Nice Neighborhood Below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_home_invasion_murders

[JJN]

Paradoxically, if he were to take advantage of the J-frame's greatest feature and keep it on him at all times, I would argue that he would be in a very strong position compared to most. However, the "nice areas" comment makes me think that the revolver will probably live out its days in a drawer or safe.

Your home defense gun is what you have on you when the doorbell rings. Something is better than nothing. I have a Hip-Gripped J-frame that I carry when I can't carry a gun.

[Robinson]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?57787-August-Rangemaster-Newsletter&p=1497264&viewfull=1#post1497264

[Joe S]

Consider the fact that even the gated neighborhoods v have lawn service, delivery people, roofers, repair people, and others who might not be the most trustworthy people, or especially quiet about where they work. Sometimes those are the only jobs paroled felons can get, and they're not necessarily looking to turn their lives around.

Just food for thought.

Even more than that, people don't have to be let in.

When I was in junior high, I had a girlfriend whose daddy did not like me who lived in a "nice" little subdivision with a little booth at the only inlet. Conveniently enough, the most direct way there from my house was to actually walk along the train tracks, and just go over the 8 or 10 foot chain link fence.

I was no criminal mastermind, just a 13 year old boy trying to suck face with his girlfriend in a copse of pine trees. And I'll bet a lot of those ground level patio sliding glass doors where not locked.

[KevH]

I agree that there are not "good" neighborhoods if there ever were. Bad things happen everywhere.

I hate the "home defense" gun stuff. The gun you have with you is the only one that matters.

If you are inclined to carry a J-frame and get really good with it and actually carry it with you everywhere that you go, then that's as fine a choice as any.

If shit goes down and your "home defense gun" with an optic, a light, and extended mag, is upstairs in a drawer and you are downstairs it's pretty useless isn't it?

A J-frame, a P365, a Glock 26, or whatever other concealable gun you like to cart around with you all day is the ideal home defense gun to me because you are more likely to have it when you need it.

[SCCY Marshal]

...I hate the "home defense" gun stuff. The gun you have with you is the only one that matters...

While I see your point and agree, I wouldn't go that far. Having a house gun handy - actually handy - is an easy thing for many to do what with it not having to be carried. Something crashes in? You should already be wearing a gun. Something gets your attention and you have a moment? In my case, a cruiser-ready Mossberg 590 is just out of sight and reach but can be charged and ready in a jiff. We can embrace the power of "and" rather than live in a binary when talking about home armaments.

Example of a nighttime break-in attempt at a former place. I heard the outer door get breached hard and ramming begin on the inner door and immediately covered the girlfriend's movement to our locked bedroom with my carry gun. While depositing her and bellowing for a housemate, I grabbed a shotgun from the bedside while leaving her the pistol. I was glad I had a long gun once I pushed back up to cover the door and noticed the invader to be a fullsize bear. The roomy who flew downstairs to shouting and commands in his home had only his carry G30, having felt no time to step from the bathroom to his own bedroom shotty. Two different responses to the same event due to individual contextual observations, triggers, and positioning. Granted a labrador retreiver waking up, smelling bear, and going ballistic is what got it to leave having only mostly destroyed the door jam. This timed out well as roomy and I had just communicated that I was going to start pouring buckshot through the door before it broke and he'd hold off with the pistol until the beast had fully breached while I bailed from the line of the bear if it came to that.

That was a very nice neighborhood but one quiet night wound up involving a carry gun hand-off, armed baricade, movement, setting up three lines of fire, a potential downrange friendly (the dog), two sets of pair communication and planning, accessing a long gun, and power tool usage to repair the damage enough to have a somehwat secure door before going to bed. Most of that well within a minute.

Or the local who iced a bear with a 45-70 wearing nothing but shower suds when it was poking around the porch door while his young kid was playing across the yard and his wife screamed. He had to access a gun from a naked start no matter what so opted for the appropriate one.

[pangloss]

I don't see the point of dropping all the way to a J frame for a house gun. G19 seems like the minimum. More is better.

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

[CDW4ME]

I'd rather defend myself with a Glock 19 than a snub, standing in a nice spot doesn't change that.

[03RN]

FWIW/YMMV

It is just not that hard to carry a more capable gun than a J frame.

As it is just not that hard, I choose to carry a more capable gun than a j frame 99% of the time.

In my direct and anecdotal experience, the vast majority of folks that default to j frame carry are not nearly as good with them as they are with a bigger gun either nor are many particularly good with them at all beyond a few feet.

Worst Case Scenario in a Nice Neighborhood Below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_home_invasion_murders

So the j frames that family carried were ineffective?

[PNWTO]

So the j frames that family carried were ineffective?

Yeah, while I understand the emphasis of sharing that story; I didn't see a "shooting solution" in that incident. A mediocre alarm system, a dog, and a locked door would have probably saved lives. If someone can enter your house undetected and wake you up with a baseball bat... that's not a gear matter.




I hate the "home defense" gun stuff. The gun you have with you is the only one that matters.



Amen, there's a line between preparedness and LARP'ing and these topics always seem to be unsteady on following it.

[vcdgrips]

Let me a bit more precise in my language and meaning:

I was generally outlining the worst case scenario in a nice neighborhood,- a home invasion by multiple experienced attackers.

I would humbly submit, for me, that is the WCS regardless or my EDC and/or readily accessible defensive weapons.


If you want to defend you and those you love in your presumably "Nice Neighborhood" house against multiple experienced attackers with a J frame as your primary- you do you.

I will graciously decline that opportunity in favor of an EDC that is a bit more capable, as remote as the odds are of me facing the WCS are in the first place.

[KevH]

I think we can all agree that the J-frame, P365, Ruger LCP, or other small gun are never the ideal guns to bring to a gun fight. What they are though is the most likely gun you might have when things go bad because they are the guns that people are actually likely to carry and have with them when lounging around their house.

Nothing says you can't have a "better" gun or more guns around in your house (provided you don't have rug rats running around getting into everything).

What I hate are the folks that keep a Glock 34 with a light and extended mag and say that's their "home defense" gun that they keep in their nightstand upstairs or the folks that carry a Staccato P all with a light all day when out and about, but take it off and put it away when they get home then wandering around unarmed.

Nobody calls you and tells you they're going to break into your house. You can't schedule when you are going to get robbed at gunpoint in your driveway.

So the reality is that a gun out of reach or not readily accessible is pretty much worthless. Most of us lounge around our house in...wait for it...lounge wear. That typically excludes heavier full size guns. So carry the biggest gun you can comfortably haul around with you in your lounge wear comfortably...'cause that is the gun you will likely have.

I've had the displeasure of having to respond to quite a few "home invasions" either as a street cop or detective (99% of which were dope-rips by the way). They're typically super quick and super violent. A door gets kicked open or the girlfriend is followed into the house or the guy is ambushed getting in/out of his car. Then there is lots of yelling, pistol whipping, and/or shooting. The invaders are trying to catch the victims completely by surprise and dominate them. There is nearly always more than one bad guy.

The home invasions and driveway robberies I have been to where the invaders were repelled were when the "victim" party had a gun on their person and started immediately shooting back. The key there is had a gun on their person. Not in a safe. Not in a drawer. Not upstairs. Not on a shelf. On their person.

In every one of those cases the invaders may have shot, or shot at, at the "victim," but they always ran or scrambled away or they got dead. Remember, typically our invaders are cowards and they are there for financial gain or for intimidation. Someone shooting at them causes a cost benefit analysis to instantly take place.

The lesson is a gun on your person, any gun on your person, beats any gun, even a much superior gun, that is not.

I wish I had the dedication to carry a slung AR on me or have an 870P on my lap when lying on the couch in the evening, but let's be real...like most of us, I don't. A J-frame takes the excuses away. Is it the best gun for a fight? No, not at all, but it is a gun and it's certainly better than the one I can't reach.

So if you are likely to carry that Staccato or a USP in your PJ's, sweats, or basketball shorts on your couch then I guess you are a step above most of us., but I think for most people a J-frame or P365 is likely what they will have.

[Mercworx]

Seems like he is weighting “probability” too heavily and undervaluing “severity” in his risk assessment.


Risks with “catastrophic” consequences require high attention regardless of their likelihood.

[David S.]

All I'm seeing is another tired "Killed in the streetz" discussion.