Forgetting the safety? Age, Youth, Training?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

From a discussion elsewhere based on a truthaboutguns debate on safety vs no safety guns. NDs vs screwing up the safety on the draw or picking up the gun. Of course, there are examples of each.

My question - does one see any group more likely to forget the safety on a gun on the draw. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/in-praise-of-the-absence-of-a-manual-safety/

Of course, folks say it never happens to them. I've seen it at matches from practiced folks. I also had a guy forget his safety and finger and almost put a 45 ACP in my foot at a match.

Question - any views on whom is more likely to screw up the safety on the draw. The old (I don't much, very rare), the young without practice? Under real world extreme stress as the article argues?

The OMG, it don't shoot and here comes the bad guy vs. OMG, I done shot myself (because you ain't professional). Not counting the gun decides to shoot you on its own (320 debate - oops!).

[FNFAN]

Interesting topic. I can tell you that transitioning back to 1911/2011 guns after a decade of Glocks has been an eye opener for me. I've been sticking to Steel Challenge matches until I get re-accustomed to proper safety manipulation at a level I'm totally comfortable with before shooting any shoot & move games. Lots of dry fire, draw strokes and a great deal of moving in and out of rooms should get me comfy. Luckily I've got pretty good trigger finger awareness. I don't know that age has as much to do with things as does repetition, but that's probably something you could expect and 'oldude to say.:rolleyes:

I got to see a guy give himself a .45 cal sub-dermal tunnel in his right butt cheek at a Vegas IDPA match a long time ago and I'm not going to be 'that guy." (His statement after the fact was 'Oh she's gonna kick my ass' -His wife was a charge nurse at the closest hospitals E.R.)

[MVS]

As a medium old guy (54) I don't see age having anything to do with it. However, looking back, when I used to attend a lot of classes it never failed that at almost every one someone would miss a safety and I guess it was mostly older guys. I attribute that to the fact that back then it was mostly only older guys running 191s. Now with 2011s there are a lot of young people running them but I haven't been to near as many classes lately. I do see people forget in matches occasionally but haven't really noticed age. My guess is it is just lack of practice.

As for myself with going to Staccato I haven't had any issues but I think there are two main reasons for this. Dry practice is my good friend, and I use the safety religiously on my AR and I think that mentality carries over.

[BN]

Training. You need repetitions to be able to handle the safety automatically.

I'm about your age, Glenn. I learned on 1911s a long time ago and shot them a lot. My thumb automatically removes the safety when the gun comes on target and re-applies it when the gun comes off target.

Some guns have the controls in the wrong place for me and I know that I can't operate them correctly.

I carry a revolver to solve the problem.

But you need repetitions to be safe.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yeah, I've shot a 1911 at times for 15 years or so. I dry fire quite a few times before a match to refresh the motor memory. Seems to work. However, I don't carry it for EDC. That's Glock or a J frame for pocket dress days.

[mmc45414]

The age aspect of this could have several factors.

Are old guys missing a safety because they have not shot all that much but have a 1911 because of Two World Wars! and they perceive themselves to be Old School and that is how they perceive themselves, as someone who should be carrying a 1911? Are old guys hitting the safety because they are old, and consequently have a lotta repetitions?

Are young guys, who (mostly) also have a lotta repetitions on ARs so conditioned that (mostly) Glock pistols do not have safeties? The argument that you will fagettaboutit because you are under stress, but remember it when you are under stress with a rifle has always seemed wacky to me.

After the last few years of shooting and carrying striker guns exclusively I am not as absolutely sure of myself as I absolutely used to be. But this could be coupled with me doing more shooting than I ever have in my life, so I have more reps in than when I was doing more 1911 shooting.

I will admit that it pisses me off when some of these youngsters go on YouTube and say things like "You (you talkin to me?!?!?!...) will forget to utilize the safety under stress" when they have never met me. They always say stuff like they claim to have watched Teir One Operators do it on the range and in training, but it has been a long, long time since the main line T1 guys have been using pistols with safeties on them.

[Clusterfrack]

Spicy topic, Glenn E. Meyer. I'm not sure this belongs in the competition subform but let's see how the discussion evolves.

See BBI's excellent sticky post (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?51954-How-People-Lost-Random-Encounter-Gun-Fights) on why good guys lose. Safeties are one reason.

At matches and in training I've seen more issues with grip safeties than with thumb safeties, but enough of both to convince me that I don't want either on a defensive handgun. These have included: 1) Failure to deactivate safety before trying to shoot or clear malfunctions, 2) failure to activate safety before holstering, and 3) broken safety.

Who have been the worst safety offenders? Obviously, I don't have stats but far and away kids are #1 on not using safeties correctly. New female shooters have been a close #2. Grip safeties are the most common with kids and newbie females--probably because of hand size. But thumb safeties are constantly not being taken off, and even worse not being put on prior to holstering.

I don't think advanced age has much to do with it. It's lack of experience, stress, and/or cognitive load combined with something unusual that seem to be the main causes.

I've guided my family members toward Glocks with SCDs, even though I almost always carry a TDA w/decocker only. Remembering to decock before holstering presents a similar issue to a safety. I've forgotten to decock and thumb-check exactly once in my life, and you can take that as a good or a bad thing--or both.

[1Rangemaster]

FWIW, I carried and competed with 1911s decades ago, before coming upon Glock pistols. I would say I carry them 98% of the time. The exceptions are a 1911 once or twice a year, snub noses-hat tip to Claude Werner-and once every year or two, an N frame.
From my observations it has been about training and experience. I shoot an IDPA match in"retro" gear once a year for the fun of it; no issues. I have had tens of thousands of reps on the 1911 safety. I distinctly recall missing it once at a match in the 1980s. I didn't "forget"-just totally screwed up the presentation.
Anecdote: I volunteer at a local club to help with church "security" teams shoot. This last quarter we had one leader who showed up with a different action every session of the three total. The last session he had an older Kimber which ran...
when he pushed the safety off after I told him to. One of our evaluations is the 5 shots in 5secs. @5 yards on a 5 inch bull. He was not successful on multiple runs. When I pointed this out politely, I got a sheepish smile and the declaration he'd "remember"-yeah, right...
Hopefully his guardian angel is around if Hell comes through the doors.
The other malfunction I've had is short stroking a snub trigger, and that's on me. I don't think age-I'm 70-has much to do with it. Mental incompetence can strike at any time.
YMMV
Edit to add for Clusterfrack : respectfully, sir, you are describing a lack of training for youth, women, etc.

[Clusterfrack]

Clusterfrack : respectfully, sir, you are describing a lack of training for youth, women, etc.

I agree. However, grip and thumb safeties require asking more of a new shooter, and come with added ergonomic issues. I am not sure safeties make their shooting safer.

[RJ]

I was in Instructional System Design throughout the majority of my 32 year career in Aerospace. In that time, I worked on or led probably a dozen or more large scale ($100M+) training solutions for US and overseas Military and commercial entities. The systems I delivered trained combat troops in aviation, ground and naval environments. Most all were young, fit, highly trained and exceptionally motivated. The training was both deep and wide, including hundreds of hours of computer based and computer aided training, classroom instruction, and simulation in live, virtual and constructive environments.

And despite all this, in service, we still had accidents involving humans who, while highly trained, at "that moment" made the wrong call and ended up injured or worse. First thing that happens in an accident investigation? They ask what kind of training did the person have.

So if you can't get a highly trained, skilled professional to avoid making human errors, my contention would be the only common denominator as regards incidence of "forgetting the safety", is that there is no common denominator.

Now, in coming to shooting late in life, I tried guns with safeties, and guns without. I am not sure if it is every single one, or just almost every single one, but when using guns with safeties, I experienced at least one episode where I went to shoot, only to not feel a bang, when there should have been a bang. My lizard brain is like, where's the bang?!

Funny, this actual thing happened to me yesterday with my 1911. I've had it a year, shooting it almost exclusively, over 1,000 rounds to date and 20 separate range sessions. Chamber round, engage TS. Glance at target, raise gun, fire. Or not. Frack. How could I have left the safety on.

I mean, being an engineer, if there's a part that isn't needed in a design, I will try and remove it. I see a safety as an unnecessary attachment with no benefit, at all (ok, maybe on a 320 :cool:) But I don't mind people who like safeties on their gun. More power to you. But this is why I roll my eyes whenever I see someone argue for safeties, and then justify episodes of failing to disengage them with "it's a training issue!!". Yeah, sure. So I will generally tend to tune out any discussion on safeties (but not this one, because I respect Glenn and think it's a good question) , because it's generally pointless.

tl;dr: Safeties are not for me.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

About the skilled failing when you don't correctly retrieve the motor programs. I recall years ago, when I lived in Oregon, there was a set of twins in the decathlon (I might have details fuzzy). They were so good that everyone thought that they would ace the Olympic trials. They were even on boxes of Wheaties as champions (a far cry from beer today - although Bruce Jenner and OJ, never mind). However, one them sailed right under the bar at the pole vault. Tried again and same - it should have been easy for him. The motor program was just not retrieved. The idea being that the motor program is stored in subcortical structures for automaticity, but fired off by the cognitive decision to act - let's jump. The retrieval can fail just like you forget a word (see my classic article on Does it pay to be Bashful - recalling the Seven Dwarfs). Stress can do this.

Sidebar, in college, the coaches all knew my dad - that was because he was a big deal NBA and CBOA basketball referee and officer. I went out to dinner with them and my Dad. One offered to teach me to pole vault! I passed on that. He was sitting there with his arm in a sling that he broke went he fell down and went boom! Coach said that I'm not like my Dad. I agreed. I was a scholar - Dad has said to me, I spent my time in athletics - YOU WILL STUDY!

Worked out, had a good career. Good discussion, folks.

[1slow]

Carried 1911 .45 late 1970s - 1990. Once I trained it in to use the safety properly no issues.

Glocks 1990 - 2012 or so , 250,000 rounds plus.

HK P30 V1 LEM Roughly 2013 - 2018, 50,000 plus rounds.


2018-2019 - now , HK USP 45 LEM. Tried cocked and locked but between arthritic thumbs and 29 years of no thumb safely, I liked LEM better.

Arthritis hindered a full hard grip with thumb on top of safety in the holster.

I was also worried that I would miss it after 29 years of no thumb safety.

[BN]

At matches and in training I've seen more issues with grip safeties than with thumb safeties, but enough of both to convince me that I don't want either on a defensive handgun.

I just remembered that I always de-activated the grip safeties on my 1911s because I couldn't get them to work every time. Now, I'm a big fan of the firing pin safeties. But 70s series 1911 and earlier didn't have them. It's a wonder we all aren't dead.

[JCN]

Spicy topic, Glenn E. Meyer. I'm not sure this belongs in the competition subform but let's see how the discussion evolves.

See BBI's excellent sticky post (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?51954-How-People-Lost-Random-Encounter-Gun-Fights) on why good guys lose. Safeties are one reason.

At matches and in training I've seen more issues with grip safeties than with thumb safeties, but enough of both to convince me that I don't want either on a defensive handgun. These have included: 1) Failure to deactivate safety before trying to shoot or clear malfunctions, 2) failure to activate safety before holstering, and 3) broken safety.

Who have been the worst safety offenders? Obviously, I don't have stats but far and away kids are #1 on not using safeties correctly. New female shooters have been a close #2. Grip safeties are the most common with kids and newbie females--probably because of hand size. But thumb safeties are constantly not being taken off, and even worse not being put on prior to holstering.

I don't think advanced age has much to do with it. It's lack of experience, stress, and/or cognitive load combined with something unusual that seem to be the main causes.

I've guided my family members toward Glocks with SCDs, even though I almost always carry a TDA w/decocker only. Remembering to decock before holstering presents a similar issue to a safety. I've forgotten to decock and thumb-check exactly once in my life, and you can take that as a good or a bad thing--or both.

My wife’s hand size and grip strength makes grip safeties a no go like you said. She just doesn’t have enough margin in size and strength to get it every time.

I like DASA for carry guns but I’m okay with safeties. I train with safety off strong thumb position on all guns so it’ll hopefully be there when I need it.

I think picking guns with compatible ergos in the levers and springs of the safeties is important.

In a carry gun I like a large lever so I can’t not depress it.

I like a stiff safety spring and detent because I have accidentally bumped a safety on with my weak thumb when the safety spring and detent get worn.

It’s another reason why I like to keep a fresh carry gun without worn parts.

Good discussion.

[Elwin]

I’m not perfect and I don’t shoot as much as I want to, but since switching to 1911s for carry in late 2019 I can’t remember ever missing or forgetting the thumb safety.*

I have had grip safety issues with one gun prior to tuning it. I agree they’re more likely to cause problems, and my solution has been to tune them very aggressively. A lot of factory guns with their grip safeties left as-is out of the box are just not where they should be, which is at least part of the frequency of seeing this issue pop up.

Edit - *I did a LOT of dry fire, with safety manipulation being the main focus, as part of the switch. I do less than I should now, but that previous “boot camp” approach of “OK, I’m carrying a gun with a safety now and have to get this down by working it every day” paid off in spades. I also think it carried over well to the AR.

Edit 2 - Continuing to think about this, I at some point adopted the safety manipulation technique discussed in a thread here, where at all times besides firing the thumb is under the safety and applying upward pressure. It’s so reflexive it’s what my thumb does grabbing any pistol in any condition - I put my 1911 safeties on by accident when handling them for maintenance and modification. I think that also helps with not forgetting to take it off, at least for presentations other than draw to first shot. My thumbs are crossed when I’m riding under the safety, which for me with a semi auto is not a firing grip. The act of shooting always involves acquiring a firing grip first, which is one and the same action as taking the safety off.

[wsr]

It’s just a matter of repetition

Your trigger finger isn’t any smarter than your thumb…if you are not able to train your thumb to manipulate a safety then you are not able to train your trigger finger to stay in index

[mmc45414]

I've had it a year, shooting it almost exclusively, over 1,000 rounds to date and 20 separate range sessions.
Excellent post, Rich, I agree with all of it except, this is really just scratch the surface familiarity.
But this does support your point, it takes a lotta repetition to develop a subconscious habit, perhaps more than should be expected of a shooter who is not a goof-ball about it like many of us. Somehow many people with varied levels of training managed to disengage rifle and carbine safeties throughout the GWOT but we think it is too much to ask of pistol shooters. Maybe it is?

My crusty thing about this topic is based on coming from a time when there really were not many alternatives. And now I have almost exclusively transitioned to striker guns, but not because they lack safeties. If someone at S&W had ever shot one of their own company's 1911s with their thumb on top of the safety and had located the lever where (IMO) it needs to be, or if an aftermarket supplier (Randy Lee, are you out there?...) would come up with an alternative lever, I would retrofit all of my many (preferred) M&Ps.


Your trigger finger isn’t any smarter than your thumb…if you are not able to train your thumb to manipulate a safety then you are not able to train your trigger finger to stay in index
Perfect explanation, and this is why I am comfortable carrying a striker gun without a safety, and when off body the thing needs to stay in an effective holster.

[1Rangemaster]

I think it was GJM who has mentioned that the more recent emergency procedures have been practiced, the quicker and smoother the response. His example, I think, was in flight training and emergencies, e.g., an engine going out on takeoff. Thinking about this, if I were to run a 1911 tomorrow, I would most probably do a few presentations and “ snaps” to include manipulating the safety. I’d also dryfire a bit with a snub nose, etc.. As I run different Glocks with dots or irons, same thing. It occurs to me I started competition with a 1911, and many don’t do that these days. So there may not be the opportunity for “the young” to gain experience. I did push the Smith DA/SA slide lever up(“off”) when I carried one in uniform.
Glenn E. Meyer , I have a question, sir, and you may have the expertise. I have heard that performing a task in reverse, e.g, drawing a handgun,can assist in training that response. Is there a term for that, please?

[Bergeron]

Maybe it would be better if we had a word other than “safety” for that kind of me mechanical interlock. I like ‘em, abd I tried my very best to have one for my Glocks, but it was not to be.

I’m not a fan of grip safeties.

I expect new shooters with safety guns to make mistakes. I would completely agree that smaller-handed, physically weaker shooters to have the biggest issues.

[Archer1440]

About the skilled failing when you don't correctly retrieve the motor programs. I recall years ago, when I lived in Oregon, there was a set of twins in the decathlon (I might have details fuzzy). They were so good that everyone thought that they would ace the Olympic trials. They were even on boxes of Wheaties as champions (a far cry from beer today - although Bruce Jenner and OJ, never mind). However, one them sailed right under the bar at the pole vault. Tried again and same - it should have been easy for him. .

You’re probably thinking about the 1992 Reebok ad campaign with Dan O’Brien and Dave Johnson before the Barcelona Olympics. Got derailed when Dan repeatedly missed the pole vault for the Decathlon team. Classic case of overhyped expectations pushing someone out of their comfort zone.

Over 20 years of carrying a 1911 served me well for my recent USPSA LO experiments. Thumb safeties are just subconscious for me under match pressure, but there are a lot of reps behind that.

[dtw]

Since this is in the competition forum, do most competitors engage the TS between shooting positions in a stage?

[Trooper224]

I've never done it, in nearly four decades of shooting the 1911. That doesn't mean it can't happen, it's just never happened to me. I don't think this needs to turn into God's Gun against everything else. But, what I have seen, more than forgetting a safety, are negligent discharges with striker fired pistols and AR rifles. Two of which caused injury.

Does this mean I think no one should be carrying ARs or plastic fantastics? Of course not. What it means is, you make your choices and you take your chances. Guns are dangerous, they kill people. Sometimes the wrong ones. You need to keep that in mind when you strap one on.

[GJM]

Since this is in the competition forum, do most competitors engage the TS between shooting positions in a stage?

Not intentionally

[Jim Watson]

I have, when on a crooked or retreating move.

[SCCY Marshal]

Since this is in the competition forum, do most competitors engage the TS between shooting positions in a stage?

Not with handgun, rifle, or shotgun. The DA/SA crew doesn't decock, either, and it all annoys me. Especially the day it got me briefly disqualified without inspecting my rifle...or was it shotgun? One or the other.

Multi-bay stage at 3Gun, ditch whichever long gun and run to another bay for the rest of the stage with some other gun. I pivoted while coming off target with the shoulder gun and slammed it in the barrel as I kicked off my sprint without looking or pausing. The R.O. got salty and ordered me marked as a D.Q. for failure to safe because there was "no way" I had taken any time to and argued with my friend when he bluntly told them to check my gun first. Someone told him that he hadn't seen the gun either and couldn't have reason to argue the point. He insisted that he'd shot with me enough to know that if it was off target, it was on safe. They got to the barrel about then and were shocked to see it on safe. Still gave him lip that it must have been luck.

Same crew but different day and another R.O. who kept chiding me for snicking my handgun safety back off to drop the hammer at the end of stages once I'd shown clear. "You don't have to safe it before showing clear."

"Am I slowing you all down?"

"No, but you don't have to so why are you bothering?"

We had a variation of that exchange on every stage.

I prefer a smaller venue at which the match director pulled me aside while that same friend was shooting a stage to compliment his constant decocker usage. Something along the lines of, "he's run a double action a time or two, huh?"


Edit: Come to think of it, this is one of my friends who actively dislikes thumb safeties on his handguns for fear of forgetting one. But decocks fine...