PDA

View Full Version : What is best weapon to carry when you can't carry a firearm?



cclaxton
10-23-2012, 05:35 PM
My girlfriend is not inclined to carry a firearm although she said she is willing to use something else. She does have pepper-spray, but it brought up an interesting question for me too since I can't carry "everywhere."

What is the next best alternative to a firearm?
Mace/Pepper Spray;
Taser;
Stun-Guns;
Knives;
Tactical Flashlight stun guns;
Expandable Stun Wands;
Keychain attached

Combinations?

What's the consensus?

Thanks,
CC

JodyH
10-23-2012, 05:39 PM
The consensus will probably be "it depends".
I always choose the knife first if it's a legal option.
I'd have to be stuck with a pretty small knife (<2" blade) before I'd drop back and punt with sprays or sticks.

btw: someone who's not willing to shoot an attacker is going to have a real tough time stabbing or slashing one. Knives are damn personal weapons.

JDM
10-23-2012, 05:44 PM
btw: someone who's not willing to shoot an attacker is going to have a real tough time stabbing or slashing one. Knives are damn personal weapons.

QFT!

Up1911Fan
10-23-2012, 05:57 PM
I always have a folder, Surefire and kubaton on my person. Most of the time i'm carrying, except at work.

Josh Runkle
10-23-2012, 06:21 PM
If legal, a knife. I'd definitely avoid pepper spray.

Al T.
10-23-2012, 06:24 PM
A good walking cane (and training) or a walking staff gives you some reach and can be very effective. In this age of ADA, suspect it will right through security too.

Byron
10-23-2012, 07:05 PM
Stun-Guns;
Tactical Flashlight stun guns;
Expandable Stun Wands

Snake oil.

I don't know anything about the consumer offering from Taser, the C2 (http://www.taser.com/products/self-defense-products/taser-c2), but any other "stun gun" on the market is likely to be total bull. People see the success of the Taser in police hands and assume that "a stun gun is a stun gun." But I can tell you from personally trying a number of consumer options that they don't do jack. They make a somewhat menacing sound and have a cool visual appearance, but they don't hurt that much and they certainly don't incapacitate.

My buddies and I used to shock each other in high school with those ZOMG 8,000,000,000,000 VOLT LIGHTNING STUN GUNS!!!!!
If I was able to tolerate it as well as I did, I can't even imagine how easily an attacker would shrug it off.

Maybe the technology has changed in the last few years, but I haven't heard any indication of it. Nor do I know any reputable self-defense instructors who recommend them.

Again, I can't speak to actual Taser brand offerings. They're in a different league, which is reflected in their price.

JHC
10-23-2012, 07:08 PM
My funny little honey has a permit to carry, is a fair shot, can be as mean as a snake but doesn't carry. The smallest gun is too much trouble. But she'll pack a knife. We've drilled and I've been "cut" to ribbons with chalk. Sick hand speed. I like knives.

I think knives are especially effective for women. If I get jumped it'll be with weapons or a sucker punch/blind side take out. I won't be just grabbed by a cretin who just knows he can pull me into his van or down the alley etc. That assumption and physical proximity makes that knife especially effective for a gal. In my opinion.

DocGKR
10-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Body armor
Taser
Knife
Club like device

Chuck Haggard
10-23-2012, 07:52 PM
If legal, a knife. I'd definitely avoid pepper spray.

Why would you avoid pepper spray?



I'll throw in a good small flashlight, legal everywhere, even on planes, and this;

http://real-self-defense.com/unbreakable-umbrella/

JodyH
10-23-2012, 08:48 PM
I avoid pepper spray because in the southwest it doesn't work consistently.
Hispanics who grew up on jalapeno and habanero peppers tend to shrug off pepper spray, this is first hand intel from USBP Agents and border county SO deputies.

41magfan
10-23-2012, 09:38 PM
In my own personal circumstance, the only place I can’t legally carry a gun is a Federal building, or a commercial airline. But setting that personal reality aside, many of the non-permitted places that I’m aware of are no less tolerant – legally speaking - of knives, electronic shockers, sprays or impact weapons. If I’m going to get in trouble for coloring outside the lines, it’s going to be for carrying a gun.

Irrespective of that opinion, if you’re not already carrying a less-lethal (or possibly a non-lethal) means of responding you’re already behind the curve IMO. I’m reasonably confident that if a certain armed citizen in Sanford FL had effectively responded with a less-lethal device first, his name probably wouldn’t be a household word today.

If you’ll review the “effective” history and use of sprays, electronic control devices and impact weapons by LE, you’ll see that they’re only effective when dealing with “resistive” folks – not those that are “assaultive”. That paradigm has no reasonable application since control, containment or compliance is generally not a problem to be solved by a civilian.

I like the extended reach afforded by a fighting stick or cane, but carrying something like that all the time is just not part of my reality -and I never see them carried by others, either. Your experience may obviously be different.

Old-timey blackjacks work great if they weigh close to a pound or so. Some “abbreviated” versions I’ve seen touted will likely just piss somebody off. A sap or slapjack will also work OK if deployed properly, but if you strike with the knife edge of the head, it will simply cause a cut without bringing about the blunt force effect.

But my favorite is the Comtech STINGER – I just can’t say enough about this little gizmo. Deployment is intuitive and it can be carried in the hand – ready for instant use – without drawing any attention whatsoever. They’re so cost effective you can actually carry several in various places and modes of access by either hand. On occasions, I carry one tethered to my wrist with a small piece of shock-cord hidden up the sleeve of my shirt or jacket.

Now I’ll admit that I always carry a knife and I’ll use it if necessary, but the only people I know who routinely use knives in the real world – with few exceptions – are criminals, so I’ll leave any other discussion of that subject to someone else. I’m reasonably confident that should it ever become necessary - I’ll fare better in making my case to a Judge, Jury or LEO for shooting my attacker instead of cutting or stabbing him in defense of my life. Again, your experience may be different.

Alaskapopo
10-23-2012, 09:51 PM
My girlfriend is not inclined to carry a firearm although she said she is willing to use something else. She does have pepper-spray, but it brought up an interesting question for me too since I can't carry "everywhere."

What is the next best alternative to a firearm?
Mace/Pepper Spray;
Taser;
Stun-Guns;
Knives;
Tactical Flashlight stun guns;
Expandable Stun Wands;
Keychain attached

Combinations?

What's the consensus?

Thanks,
CC

Their expensive but short of a firearm the X26 taser is the best tool I have ever used. I have used it to bring very large me intent on harming me to the ground. The civilian model runs 30 or90 (forgot which) seconds allowing her to use it and then set it down and run away. Taser will replace the unit for her if she has to use it and files a police report.

Pepper spray is ok but I don't count on it working. I remember one incident where I stepped in front of a 17 year old kid about to punch his sister and sprayed him. He was drunk, he looked at me and said "what the fuck did you do that for" and the fight was on. I got him on the ground and in cuffs but the spray had no effect on him. I have also had it work well. But its highly dependant on who you spray. It does work well for clearing out small rooms with lots of people. Knives require a lot of skill. They are very effective if you have that skill not so much if you don't. Also the size, strength and speed of the person with the knife matters a lot no so much with the taser.

Pat

Josh Runkle
10-23-2012, 09:59 PM
Why would you avoid pepper spray?



Because it takes time to find and deploy, then you have to correctly orient it the right direction, then stand upwind of your attacker so you don't get it in your face, and pray that their hands don't come up to defend their face, then come down on your exposed skin. That's assuming you never have an accidental discharge and then have to burn everything you were wearing. Dumb example: ever watch something silly like Dog the Bounty Hunter (bear mace to the face bro!)? Even the guy that swears by that stuff has an accidental discharge of that stuff like once a month. Now, I assume you are much, much more competent of a person, but still, what if you had an accidental discharge of it only once a year? It'd still be a pain. If it's a lady throwing it in the abyss called a purse, it's nearly guaranteed to contaminate everything she cares about, unless it has additional safety/lockout features, etc...and then what's the use of a defensive tool when you can't find it in that abyss of a purse, have to remove a safety cap, pin, etc, then orient it correctly...a bad guy could probably attack from 500 yards away at that speed.

OC is great if you control the environment and you're wearing a mask and have a uniform you'll be reimbursed for, that you can burn later.

JodyH
10-23-2012, 10:07 PM
IMO "less lethal" is over rated for civi use.

First, without documented professional training most "less lethal" is considered lethal force.
This is especially true with batons, canes, flashlights, and other items that can be considered blunt force weapons.

When it comes to electric less lethal, civilian market items suck.

That pretty much leaves OC.
OC is not a magic BG repellent, and can be fought through pretty easily.
Cross contamination is a huge problem under "field conditions", you get as much on you as you do on them.

Solid MUC skills are the best "less lethal" you can use.

Alaskapopo
10-23-2012, 10:23 PM
Because it takes time to find and deploy, then you have to correctly orient it the right direction, then stand upwind of your attacker so you don't get it in your face, and pray that their hands don't come up to defend their face, then come down on your exposed skin. That's assuming you never have an accidental discharge and then have to burn everything you were wearing. Dumb example: ever watch something silly like Dog the Bounty Hunter (bear mace to the face bro!)? Even the guy that swears by that stuff has an accidental discharge of that stuff like once a month. Now, I assume you are much, much more competent of a person, but still, what if you had an accidental discharge of it only once a year? It'd still be a pain. If it's a lady throwing it in the abyss called a purse, it's nearly guaranteed to contaminate everything she cares about, unless it has additional safety/lockout features, etc...and then what's the use of a defensive tool when you can't find it in that abyss of a purse, have to remove a safety cap, pin, etc, then orient it correctly...a bad guy could probably attack from 500 yards away at that speed.

OC is great if you control the environment and you're wearing a mask and have a uniform you'll be reimbursed for, that you can burn later.

Ok you don't have to stand up wind. Yes you will get over spray but thats a fact of life and you can fight through it. You don't have to burn what you were wearing. I have gotten pepper spray on a lot of uniforms and never burned any of them. Just wash them like normal. I carry an ASP pepper spray key chain off duty along with my firearm and have never had an issue with it. How much actual experience do you have with pepper spray?
Pat

Alaskapopo
10-23-2012, 10:27 PM
IMO "less lethal" is over rated for civi use.

First, without documented professional training most "less lethal" is considered lethal force.
This is especially true with batons, canes, flashlights, and other items that can be considered blunt force weapons.

When it comes to electric less lethal, civilian market items suck.

That pretty much leaves OC.
OC is not a magic BG repellent, and can be fought through pretty easily.
Cross contamination is a huge problem under "field conditions", you get as much on you as you do on them.

Solid MUC skills are the best "less lethal" you can use.

What? (to the point in bold) That is simply not true. Pepper spray and other less lethal devices are not classfied as deadly weapons at least not under any laws I am familiar with. If you know of any please post them. The Taser is the best less lethal tool I have used. Batons are hit or miss and frankly I have not seen them work all that effectively. Pepper spray is about 60% effective in my own experience. I agree having good unarmed fighting skills is a must but I will use tools whenever I can over going hands on. No matter how tough you are there is always someone tougher than you. There is always someone, faster, stronger and bigger than you as well. Unarmed fighting skills come into play when you don't have the time to employ a tool or weapon.
Pat

Le Français
10-23-2012, 10:37 PM
OC is great if you control the environment and you're wearing a mask and have a uniform you'll be reimbursed for, that you can burn later.

Burning uniforms? It's contaminated with pepper spray, not the Ebola virus! Just clean it!

To answer the question at hand: I like pepper spray, and have found it to work quite well. As with any weapon, it should be kept accessible and practiced with if it is to be of any use. As another poster mentioned, carving into someone with a knife is not for the faint of heart, and someone unwilling to shoot another person is unlikely to have the mettle required for determined knife work. Now, if the reticence to carry a gun is due to its bulk, the knife may be a viable option.

Alaskapopo
10-23-2012, 10:38 PM
Burning uniforms? It's contaminated with pepper spray, not the Ebola virus!

About the worst experience I have had with pepper spray is taking a shower later and not getting it all out of my hair first. Lets just say the stuff travels south and can hurt like hell.
Pat

JodyH
10-23-2012, 10:57 PM
What? (to the point in bold) That is simply not true. Pepper spray and other less lethal devices are not classfied as deadly weapons at least not under any laws I am familiar with. If you know of any please post them.
Pat
Go back and read my post again.
You missed part of it.
Hint: "blunt force = lethal force " then further along "That leaves OC..."

Also MUC is not unarmed fighting skills.
If you go hands on its because your MUC failed.

Theres also a big difference between a leo whos required to engage and a civi whos forced to engage badguys and the timeframes where less lethal is a viable option.
First leos are usually the aggressor in less lethal applications.
A civi on the defense has a much smaller window of opportunity between no force and lethal to apply less lethal.
A good topic for another thread, when im on a real computer.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Alaskapopo
10-23-2012, 11:08 PM
Go back and read my post again.
You missed part of it.
Hint: "blunt force = lethal force " then further along "That leaves OC..."

Also MUC is not unarmed fighting skills.
If you go hands on its because your MUC failed.


Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Your right and frankly I am not a big fan of batons. Not saying their useless but they are not the first thing I grab. In fact I don't carry one anymore. Its in my patrol bag but never leaves the car. What is MUC?

JodyH
10-23-2012, 11:15 PM
Managing unknown contacts.
Basically awareness, deterrance, deescalation, verbalization, positioning tactics/techniques.
Southnarc is the resident guru.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Chuck Haggard
10-23-2012, 11:19 PM
I've use OC since roughly 1989, I have hundreds of deployments on the street, the times it has failed has been in the single digits. I teach OC locally for my 300 man department, and on the side through these guys;
http://www.nletc.com/

In training I have been hit with every major brand of OC on the market, well over 50 times now.

I may have a wee bit of experience with OC.


The idea that folks from south of the border can fight off OC better is pure horseshit. So says my personal experience and first hand observation on the street.

A good friend of mine didn't come to the US until he was 13, in the academy he bragged about how well he was going to do in the OC course due to a life of eating his mom's hot sauce. Nice theory, the hole in it is that he may eat a lot of peppers but he had never stuck one in his eye before. Half an hour in the showers after his hit with Saber Red he gets his eys open and asks me (while I giggle) "WTF!!!! was in that can?"


OC is a VERY useful tool for less-lethal self defense. One thing that makes it more useful for regular folks than cops is that it can be used to put up a cloud between you and the bad guy, cops need to close this gap, regular folks don't.

If one can't be trained to deploy a can of OC in a rather short class then they are too stupid to be let out of the house by themselves without supervision.

Alaskapopo
10-24-2012, 12:09 AM
I've use OC since roughly 1989, I have hundreds of deployments on the street, the times it has failed has been in the single digits. I teach OC locally for my 300 man department, and on the side through these guys;
http://www.nletc.com/

In training I have been hit with every major brand of OC on the market, well over 50 times now.

I may have a wee bit of experience with OC.


The idea that folks from south of the border can fight off OC better is pure horseshit. So says my personal experience and first hand observation on the street.

A good friend of mine didn't come to the US until he was 13, in the academy he bragged about how well he was going to do in the OC course due to a life of eating his mom's hot sauce. Nice theory, the hole in it is that he may eat a lot of peppers but he had never stuck one in his eye before. Half an hour in the showers after his hit with Saber Red he gets his eys open and asks me (while I giggle) "WTF!!!! was in that can?"


OC is a VERY useful tool for less-lethal self defense. One thing that makes it more useful for regular folks than cops is that it can be used to put up a cloud between you and the bad guy, cops need to close this gap, regular folks don't.

If one can't be trained to deploy a can of OC in a rather short class then they are too stupid to be let out of the house by themselves without supervision.

I have noticed one thing is some people seem to have a very high tolerance. In my acadmey class of 41 students 4 showed no effects at all to the spray. 1 was a very large black man that was a boxer and body builder the kind of guy you would really want pepper spray to work on and it did not even make him cough. Now me personally it took me 45 minutes to recover after the fight through drill. I could be wrong but it seems the more fair skinned you are like me the more it affects you.
Pat

JHC
10-24-2012, 07:01 AM
I've use OC since roughly 1989, I have hundreds of deployments on the street, the times it has failed has been in the single digits. I teach OC locally for my 300 man department, and on the side through these guys;
http://www.nletc.com/

In training I have been hit with every major brand of OC on the market, well over 50 times now.

I may have a wee bit of experience with OC.


The idea that folks from south of the border can fight off OC better is pure horseshit. So says my personal experience and first hand observation on the street.

A good friend of mine didn't come to the US until he was 13, in the academy he bragged about how well he was going to do in the OC course due to a life of eating his mom's hot sauce. Nice theory, the hole in it is that he may eat a lot of peppers but he had never stuck one in his eye before. Half an hour in the showers after his hit with Saber Red he gets his eys open and asks me (while I giggle) "WTF!!!! was in that can?"


OC is a VERY useful tool for less-lethal self defense. One thing that makes it more useful for regular folks than cops is that it can be used to put up a cloud between you and the bad guy, cops need to close this gap, regular folks don't.

If one can't be trained to deploy a can of OC in a rather short class then they are too stupid to be let out of the house by themselves without supervision.

Great info. My impression - and it may be very wrong - is that LE use of OC is generally about effecting some type of compliance or gaining control of someone where other methods are not authorized. Is it generally as useful in a full on "fist city" assault?

cclaxton
10-24-2012, 07:31 AM
Thanks for all the great replies. Here is what I got out of this so far:

Everybody is getting a Comtech Stinger for Christmas...maybe extras;
Wands and Tactical Flashlights are not bery good, although a heavy tactical flashlight may be good for striking the attacker;
Blunt-force is better than a knife, and using a knife requires training and skill. (My brother was attacked down in Florida years ago, and he didn't even know the guy cut him 7 times...he thought he was just punching him. He walked out the the truck and fell to the ground realizing he had been cut 7 times....he was rushed to hospital, recovered, bad guy got 7 years.);
Tasers are very effective (although I know in some jurisdictions it has similar restrictions as firearms), and may be difficult to carry around for a woman;
OC Pepper spray may be a good defense in most cases, and may be good to have as a "first response;"

I also saw an ad for a unbreakable umbrella that shows the guy whacking a watermelon in half....might be a good alternative.

What are the best Tasers to carry for a woman?
CC

Alaskapopo
10-24-2012, 11:44 AM
Great info. My impression - and it may be very wrong - is that LE use of OC is generally about effecting some type of compliance or gaining control of someone where other methods are not authorized. Is it generally as useful in a full on "fist city" assault?

I have used it for people actively fighting and not really for passive resistant folks. It works pretty well and even when it does not work perfectly the suspect now at least has a harder time seeing me while he is fighting. At the very least it has given me the upper hand.
Pat

TR675
10-24-2012, 12:43 PM
I carry around an ASP keychain OC dispenser, mostly for aggressive (but not attacking) drunks in bars as a prelude to getting the hell out of Dodge, or for aggressive (but not attacking) dogs.

Other than that, pocketknife is about as good as everyday civvie dress will allow for me.

Cecil Burch
10-24-2012, 01:16 PM
The Stinger is okay as long as it is in the hands of someone who has trained it. Putting it in the hands of someone who has no idea of how to punch, how to make a fist, or has never made maximum contact on any kind of target is a guarantee of failure. It is the equivalent of taking someone who has never shot a gun, giving them a snubby, and telling them "hold like this and pull trigger". It will not end up pretty when it matters the most.

The Stinger has a tendency to roll and collapse under impact for most people who aren't used to punching.

It also stand out as what it is - a weapon. Some jurisdictions will not look kindly at that.

joshs
10-24-2012, 01:31 PM
Just to emphasize what Cecil said, things like the Stinger that are obviously of use only as a weapon may fall into general bans on carrying concealed weapons. Small knives, and especially small folding knives, are often exempted from bans on carrying weapons. Even where knives are not specifically exempted, it is generally possible to at least raise a defense that the knife was not carried as a "weapon."

JHC
10-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Thanks for all the great replies. Here is what I got out of this so far:

Everybody is getting a Comtech Stinger for Christmas...maybe extras;
Wands and Tactical Flashlights are not bery good, although a heavy tactical flashlight may be good for striking the attacker;
Blunt-force is better than a knife, and using a knife requires training and skill. (My brother was attacked down in Florida years ago, and he didn't even know the guy cut him 7 times...he thought he was just punching him. He walked out the the truck and fell to the ground realizing he had been cut 7 times....he was rushed to hospital, recovered, bad guy got 7 years.);
Tasers are very effective (although I know in some jurisdictions it has similar restrictions as firearms), and may be difficult to carry around for a woman;
OC Pepper spray may be a good defense in most cases, and may be good to have as a "first response;"

I also saw an ad for a unbreakable umbrella that shows the guy whacking a watermelon in half....might be a good alternative.

What are the best Tasers to carry for a woman?
CC

I don't think all those are proper conclusions for a female's defense. Striking effectively (getting past defenses) with a carry-able bludgeon is going to take more training and more physical attributes than stabbing and ripping with a knife. It is much easier to disarm an opponent with a stick/club that disarm one with a blade.

The Taser company makes a civvie version. That is probably the only Taser being suggested here.

NEPAKevin
10-24-2012, 02:07 PM
Wands and Tactical Flashlights are not bery good, although a heavy tactical flashlight may be good for striking the attacker;

CC

One point in favor of flashlights is that they are, well, lights. Even if they are not the best impact weapon, a light can be useful in emergency situations such as structure fires or power outages and a bright light can sometimes disorientate and even immobilize an attacker. Years ago, when the lithium driven high intensity white lights were the "new" thing, I had just received one and had been playing, I mean training, with it all afternoon and while leaving work that evening spotted an unauthorized individual in our storage lot. When I lit him up, right in the retinas apparently, he actually yelped while covering his eyes with his forearm and went to his knees.

Chuck Haggard
10-24-2012, 04:23 PM
I have used it for people actively fighting and not really for passive resistant folks. It works pretty well and even when it does not work perfectly the suspect now at least has a harder time seeing me while he is fighting. At the very least it has given me the upper hand.
Pat

^This^

Rex G
10-24-2012, 05:24 PM
Well, it depends!

In Texas, where I reside, a fixed-blade knife, with a blade up to 5.5", unless it is a dirk, dagger, Bowie, or several other named blade weapons, is not a weapon, as defined in the Penal Code. Most single-edged knives would be OK. For me, if I could not carry a handgun, I would carry a Shivworks Clinch Pick or two, and/or a Disciple or two, and feel quite well-armed, while being legal most places. Of course, if I reach a checkpoint with a metal detector, and the establishment does not allow "weapons" past that checkpoint, I would be out of luck, due to trespass law. About the only defensive device that can get past a checkpoint is a cane, and if someone at a checkpoint asks me to show/prove need, I do have an ugly scar on one knee.

A powerful flashlight is indispensible. My current favorite is the Surefire LX2 Digital Lumamax. Of course, a light is something to be carried regardless of whether one carries a gun.

I do not presently carry OC spray, but if a handgun could not be carried, I probably would tote a high-quality OC spray, along with blades.

Collapsible batons, saps, and such, are not legal for general carry in Texas; a concealed handgun license permits just that, handguns.

cclaxton
10-24-2012, 06:58 PM
The diversity of opinion here is really great. It gives me a lot of points to consider.

Since training was mentioned, I wanted to know more about how much training is needed. I agree that training is more important than the defensive device, because if you can't use it properly, its's useless...much like a handgun.

So, of the things we have talked about, how much training would be needed for each type of device? Which is easiest for my girlfriend to learn (setting aside that you don't know much about her, but just assume she is an average 5'9" woman of about 180 pounds who is in fair to good shape):

- Comtech Stinger: Easy, Moderate, Difficult to learn to use?
- OC Spray: Easy, Moderate, Difficult to learn to use?
- Taser: Easy, Moderate, Difficult to learn to use?
- Knife: Easy, Moderate, Difficult to learn to use?
- Walking Canes, unbreakable umbrellas, etc.;
- Blunt-force weapons light tactical flashlights, blackjacks, etc.

In terms of hours of training required, I would thinkk Easy~8 hours of training with biweekly 30 min practice, Moderate is 8-16 hours of training and weekly practice, and Difficult is more than 16 hours of training and daily or alternate daily practice.

Thanks,
CC

Shellback
10-24-2012, 07:22 PM
I've use OC since roughly 1989, I have hundreds of deployments on the street, the times it has failed has been in the single digits. I teach OC locally for my 300 man department, and on the side through these guys;
http://www.nletc.com/

In training I have been hit with every major brand of OC on the market, well over 50 times now.

What brand and type of OC would you recommend?

StraitR
10-24-2012, 08:42 PM
What brand and type of OC would you recommend?

I'm going to take a guess, and say his response will be FOX Labs.

Anyway, my point in responding, make sure if you choose to carry OC that you research any local restrictions. It sounds stupid, but I live in Florida which issued it's first CCW permit in 1987, recently became the first state to issue 1,000,000 permits, pioneered "stand your ground" law, has pretty relaxed laws regarding "other weapons" that can be concealed, but has a 2.0oz chemical volume MAX on chem sprays carried on your person. Most don't think about it, as it's "less lethal", but it's worth looking into prior to a purchase.

Chuck Haggard
10-24-2012, 10:19 PM
What brand and type of OC would you recommend?

Saber Red or Crossfire, depending on what delivery system you wanted. I have yet to meet a hotter OC product, and the canisters are top notch in quality. The canister actually working is kind of a big deal, not all OC has good QC

Knives; Although I am a big advocate of training, it doesn't take much to carve a Mo-Fo up bad with zero training and a whole lot of mean.


ETA; Just saw the post above. The Fox is not all that. The Saber is quite a bit hotter, according to both lab testing and what my face tells me after being sprayed.

Tamara
10-25-2012, 05:59 AM
I don't think all those are proper conclusions for a female's defense. Striking effectively (getting past defenses) with a carry-able bludgeon is going to take more training and more physical attributes than stabbing and ripping with a knife. It is much easier to disarm an opponent with a stick/club that disarm one with a blade.

This.

I used to carry an ASP but have since stopped because:

1) You know how antis are always saying that the bad guy will only take your gun and use it against you? Well, that can really happen if all you have is a stick.

2) As it turns out, whopping somebody with a stick who doesn't want to be whopped is harder than it looks.

3) It completely fails as an "intermediate step" on the use-of-force spectrum. If I don't have any business shooting him, then I don't have any business going upside his head with a two-foot steel bar, either. And if he's so dangerous that he's worth popping with a two-foot steel bar, then I probably ought to go ahead and shoot him instead, just to be sure.

Shellback
10-25-2012, 06:32 AM
Saber Red or Crossfire, depending on what delivery system you wanted. I have yet to meet a hotter OC product, and the canisters are top notch in quality. The canister actually working is kind of a big deal, not all OC has good.
Thank you. It's for the wife when she's out walking the kids and I'm at work. She's not quite comfortable carrying yet but the very protective Belgian Malinois is a good deterrent and the OC would be just a little bit extra.


I used to carry an ASP but have since stopped because:

1) You know how antis are always saying that the bad guy will only take your gun and use it against you? Well, that can really happen if all you have is a stick.

2) As it turns out, whopping somebody with a stick who doesn't want to be whopped is harder than it looks.

3) It completely fails as an "intermediate step" on the use-of-force spectrum. If I don't have any business shooting him, then I don't have any business going upside his head with a two-foot steel bar, either. And if he's so dangerous that he's worth popping with a two-foot steel bar, then I probably ought to go ahead and shoot him instead, just to be sure.
Great way of putting it Tam and really puts it into perspective.

cclaxton
10-25-2012, 07:17 AM
So here is where this is leading me without a firearm:
1) Always have a powerful flashlight available, as the light can be a great deterrence and assist with identification, exit, etc.
2) Carry a 15' defensive solution and,
3) Carry an up-close defensive solution.

15': From what I have heard here there are two viable 15' solutions: OC Pepper Spray and Taser. I would like to hear which will be easier for training and faster to deploy when needed. I would think the Taser takes more training but is faster to deploy, and Pepper Spray takes less training and is slower to deploy. Any thoughts there on how much difference in training versus benefit of reaction time? (There is also a cost factor here, pepper spray being much cheaper alternative.)

From what I have heard there are two (possibly more) viable up-close defensive solutions: Stinger (or Stinger Like devices), and a Knife. And in this case maybe both can be carried. They both seem about the same when it comes to training, and perhaps a knife is somewhat easier, although getting a knife deployed quickly can take time to learn.

One of the main reasons my girlfriend can't carry a firearm is that she works in Washington, DC...Just saw that Tasers cannot be legally carried there, so I think the OC Pepper is the only option for her at this point. Also, she works at a hospital and they just held a "violence in the workplace training" and she learned some great self-defensive moves that can be done without any weapons.

Any recommendations of types of defensive knives for her to carry? I would think a 4" knife non-folding with a sheath would be best?

Thanks,
CC

41magfan
10-25-2012, 08:12 AM
I guess it should go without saying that your response should be based on circumstance – NOT what you happen to be carrying.

I’ll not belabor the points some have injected, but I do think it’s worth at least mentioning that something like a Stinger doesn’t necessarily take the place of something else like a knife, it’s just a supplement to other measures.

Like a firearm, ANY use of a knife will be considered an application of DF whereas gizmos like a Stinger can be used in very non-lethal, but effective ways. Additionally, access to public venues like sports stadiums, concerts, government buildings and the like often make metal objects a “no-go” if metal detectors are deployed. I once had to return a micro size Leatherman to the car after it was “wanded” by security at a MLB stadium. The Stinger will go undetected short of image scanning or physical searches.

I don’t mean to come across as a salesman for Stingers, as I have no vested interest in promoting the product, but IMO it has more attributes than any other concealable force multiplier/impact weapon out there by a large margin. We all learn at an early age how to use our hands, and that intuitive reflex makes the Stinger work so well. The only learning curve – if there really is one – is getting a feel for the resistance offered on impact.

The Stinger will readily turn in your hand if you forcefully strike a hard, immovable object but I don’t think that’s a realistic assessment of its effectiveness – unless you’re anticipating an attack from trees, utility poles or solid walls.

The greatest advantage to the Stinger IMO is its ability to be readily deployed without attention or precursory steps in presentation. The lowest impact color is CLEAR, and it can be carried in the closed hand with almost no detection whatsoever. As I noted in the earlier post, they're so cheap you can deploy them in multiple locations for very little expense.

I think anyone, of any stature, in very short order can be trained to respond explosively with a Stinger to great effect.

joshs
10-25-2012, 08:36 AM
Weapons carry laws in D.C. are much more comprehensive than just the ban on carrying firearms. If she is going to carry pepper spray, it must comply with the requirements of D.C. Code §§ 7-2502.12 to .14. D.C. Code § 22-4514 prohibits, among other things, the possession of any "knuckles" or a knife with a blade longer than 3 inches. "Knuckles" are broadly defined as any one piece device made of a hard material that fits over the fingers of a hand. The stinger would seem to fall into this definitions.

In addition to the ban on possession of certain enumerated weapons, the carrying of "any deadly or dangerous weapon capable of being . . . concealed" is also prohibited. D.C. Code § 22-4504. Deadly or dangerous weapon is not defined, but as I mentioned above, something like the stinger that can only serve as a weapon would almost certainly fall within this prohibition, while a knife is usually carried as a tool rather than a weapon.

LittleLebowski
10-25-2012, 09:01 AM
Thank you. It's for the wife when she's out walking the kids and I'm at work. She's not quite comfortable carrying yet but the very protective Belgian Malinois is a good deterrent and the OC would be just a little bit extra.

Great way of putting it Tam and really puts it into perspective.

I think your wife is safe.

NickA
10-25-2012, 09:13 AM
What brand and type of OC would you recommend?

I got the Sabre Spitfire for myself and the wife. Unobtrusive on a key chain and has a good switch that should make it hard to have a ND. Keeping it on the keychain makes it easy to have in hand while going to and from the car, gassing up, etc.

Cecil Burch
10-25-2012, 11:58 AM
I don’t mean to come across as a salesman for Stingers, as I have no vested interest in promoting the product, but IMO it has more attributes than any other concealable force multiplier/impact weapon out there by a large margin. We all learn at an early age how to use our hands, and that intuitive reflex makes the Stinger work so well. The only learning curve – if there really is one – is getting a feel for the resistance offered on impact.

The Stinger will readily turn in your hand if you forcefully strike a hard, immovable object but I don’t think that’s a realistic assessment of its effectiveness – unless you’re anticipating an attack from trees, utility poles or solid walls.


Most people have an intuitive reflex of how to use their hands. Making a proper fist with good alignment so you don't destroy your wrist is not one of them. Neither is wrapping your hand into a good fist that correctly holds a fistload fast and steady. Women in particular are weak at this. It just doesn't seem to be something that comes naturally to many of them. Handing a person an item that requires guidance and training without a willingness to commit to said guidance and training will lead to a false confidence, and maybe a dangerous failure when it is needed most. If they can hit a heavy bag multiple times rapidly and with full force without injury, then they need to try actually hitting a person (padded and geared up hopefully). I destroyed a motorcycle helmet years ago using a Stinger. It works, with TRAINING. Without that, it is worse than useless.

And if you don't think the bones of the head or ribs are hard enough to collapse an improperly held Stinger, than I and all of multiple hundreds of people I have trained are hitting a different species than you seem to have experience with.

cclaxton
10-25-2012, 12:01 PM
Weapons carry laws in D.C. are much more comprehensive than just the ban on carrying firearms. If she is going to carry pepper spray, it must comply with the requirements of D.C. Code §§ 7-2502.12 to .14. D.C. Code § 22-4514 prohibits, among other things, the possession of any "knuckles" or a knife with a blade longer than 3 inches. "Knuckles" are broadly defined as any one piece device made of a hard material that fits over the fingers of a hand. The stinger would seem to fall into this definitions.

In addition to the ban on possession of certain enumerated weapons, the carrying of "any deadly or dangerous weapon capable of being . . . concealed" is also prohibited. D.C. Code § 22-4504. Deadly or dangerous weapon is not defined, but as I mentioned above, something like the stinger that can only serve as a weapon would almost certainly fall within this prohibition, while a knife is usually carried as a tool rather than a weapon.

Josh,
I could be wrong here, but my research this morning led me to believe the laws are not that restrictive with blade length, unless it is tied to intent. The concealed blade part of the law is tied to intent to inflict harm or criminal activities. And, the Stinger isn't worn over the fingers like brass knuckles, and I would find it unbelievable that a DC police officer would write her up for carrying a Stinger on her key ring, if he even if they can recognize it as a weapon in the first place (which I doubt).

I am interested in your statement about the OC spray, though. I couldn't find anything restricting the type of Pepper spray she can carry. Do you have anything more?

Thanks,

joshs
10-25-2012, 12:43 PM
Josh,
I could be wrong here, but my research this morning led me to believe the laws are not that restrictive with blade length, unless it is tied to intent. The concealed blade part of the law is tied to intent to inflict harm or criminal activities. And, the Stinger isn't worn over the fingers like brass knuckles, and I would find it unbelievable that a DC police officer would write her up for carrying a Stinger on her key ring, if he even if they can recognize it as a weapon in the first place (which I doubt).

I am interested in your statement about the OC spray, though. I couldn't find anything restricting the type of Pepper spray she can carry. Do you have anything more?

Thanks,

You've already announced on a public forum that her intent in carrying it is for use in self-defense. D.C. uses a circumstances based approach to determine intent. If it looks like she is carrying it for defensive use against people, then the carry prohibition is certainly applicable and the possession statute which contains the blade length limitation may also be applicable.

“Knuckles” are defined as "an object, whether made of metal, wood, plastic, or other similarly durable material that is constructed of one piece, the outside part of which is designed to fit over and cover the fingers on a hand and the inside part of which is designed to be gripped by the fist." Even if this definition were inapplicable to the stinger, it is still possible for someone carrying a stinger on their person to be charged for violation of the the carry statute. D.C. Code § 22-4504.

The OC statute requires the canister has instructions for treatment and an expiration date. It also limits the types of chemical sprays than can be carried, but OC based aerosol sprays are allowed.

None of the above should be considered legal advice. You should contact an attorney barred in D.C. if you have a specific question about the application of D.C. law to certain facts.

SouthNarc
10-25-2012, 12:50 PM
I destroyed a motorcycle helmet years ago using a Stinger. It works, with TRAINING. Without that, it is worse than useless.



Top Popper hits harder. I broke a guy's jaw in 3 places with the original prototype about 9 years ago.

And.....it opens bottles!

Cecil Burch
10-25-2012, 01:03 PM
Top Popper hits harder. I broke a guy's jaw in 3 places with the original prototype about 9 years ago.

And.....it opens bottles!

It's why I have one one my keyring as we speak :)

And my son and all my nephews think it is the coolest thing ever.

Shellback
10-25-2012, 01:47 PM
I think your wife is safe.

Me too, Bam's a good boy :cool:, but she was asking and I thought I'd inquire. She does want to look at the Shield if we can ever find one here. I think it'd be a good option for her due to the slimness factor of her and the gun.

Chuck Haggard
10-25-2012, 02:44 PM
The thing I like about lights an OC is that they are useful at a bit of distance while still in MUC mode wheh things are still a bit ambiguous. You can get around sprying OC or blimping someone in the face with 200 lumens pretty easy in "my bad" mode, not so much with bullets.

In many cases using some force early and effectively means you don't have to use a lot more force later on.


In lower light scenarios using the light in conjunction with the OC works REALLY well.


I recall seeing somewhere a video about the use of one of these;
http://www.gerbergear.com/content/search?SearchText=artifact

as an in hand key chain while walking out to the car, with the blade pre opened so that a pikal tyle grip was being used. Seemed like a good idea to me.

Skold
10-26-2012, 11:35 AM
Top Popper hits harder. I broke a guy's jaw in 3 places with the original prototype about 9 years ago.

And.....it opens bottles!

Could you post a link to the Top Popper you are talking about. A google search shows many different designs.....

Shellback
10-26-2012, 11:58 AM
Could you post a link to the Top Popper you are talking about. A google search shows many different designs.....

Here ya go! (http://ccdefense.com/index.php?categoryID=5) I just ordered one yesterday.

Cecil Burch
10-26-2012, 12:04 PM
Here ya go! (http://ccdefense.com/index.php?categoryID=5) I just ordered one yesterday.

And they settle more securely and naturally in your hand making it easier to hit properly. I love them.

Skold
10-26-2012, 01:07 PM
And they settle more securely and naturally in your hand making it easier to hit properly. I love them.

Thank you for the link Irish. What are these made of? and can you get other colors than purple and green?

Skold
10-26-2012, 01:10 PM
Sorry I just saw you can get them in blue and gold. I would be looking for a color that is flat and not as shiny. Would these take some type of flat paint?

Shellback
10-26-2012, 01:21 PM
Thank you for the link Irish. What are these made of? and can you get other colors than purple and green?

They're made out of titanium. I believe those are the only 4 colors currently available and I think after carrying it for a short while they should be a little less on the shiny side.

Byron
10-26-2012, 01:40 PM
Top Poppers are titanium

You could paint them with whatever you want, but given that they are meant to be carried on a keychain, I would expect the paint to rub off very quickly.

They are anodized in very 'festive' colors to make them look less threatening; less weapon-like. Unlike paint, the anodizing on mine has been very resilient.

I've carried a Top Popper for many years now. It's an expensive item, but has been "worth it" for me. In fact, I have spares at home in case I lose mine. I also gave one to my cousin who carries his every day like me.

Here's my blue-and-gold model which I've carried since... 2006?... not exactly sure, but it's been 5 years at minimum. As you can see, the finish only shows wear at the corner/edge where the keys can get to it. Even there, it's barely noticeable.

With flash:

http://byrong.com/misc/tp1-flash.jpg

Without flash:

http://byrong.com/misc/tp2-noflash.jpg

http://byrong.com/misc/tp3-noflash.jpg


It's the one tool I can't leave home without, because it is attached to my house key and car keys; there's no option.

Skold
10-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Thanks Byron for the pictures! I will have to read up on the laws here and see if this is something I can actually carry.

Shellback
10-26-2012, 02:02 PM
Thanks Byron for the pictures! I will have to read up on the laws here and see if this is something I can actually carry.

I don't think there's any laws against carrying a "top popper" since it's designed to open beer bottles. ;)

Alaskapopo
10-26-2012, 03:04 PM
Top Poppers are titanium

You could paint them with whatever you want, but given that they are meant to be carried on a keychain, I would expect the paint to rub off very quickly.

They are anodized in very 'festive' colors to make them look less threatening; less weapon-like. Unlike paint, the anodizing on mine has been very resilient.

I've carried a Top Popper for many years now. It's an expensive item, but has been "worth it" for me. In fact, I have spares at home in case I lose mine. I also gave one to my cousin who carries his every day like me.

Here's my blue-and-gold model which I've carried since... 2006?... not exactly sure, but it's been 5 years at minimum. As you can see, the finish only shows wear at the corner/edge where the keys can get to it. Even there, it's barely noticeable.

With flash:

http://byrong.com/misc/tp1-flash.jpg

Without flash:

http://byrong.com/misc/tp2-noflash.jpg

http://byrong.com/misc/tp3-noflash.jpg


It's the one tool I can't leave home without, because it is attached to my house key and car keys; there's no option.

Might have to be careful as those could be construid as brass knuckles which are banned in some areas.
Pat

Skold
10-26-2012, 03:10 PM
Might have to be careful as those could be construid as brass knuckles which are banned in some areas.
Pat

Haha exactly what I was thinking.....I would say from my perspective they fit a brass knuckles description more than the stinger mentioned earlier in the thread.

joshs
10-26-2012, 03:13 PM
Haha exactly what I was thinking.....I would say from my perspective they fit a brass knuckles description more than the stinger mentioned earlier in the thread.

Virginia's prohibition on carrying "metal knucks" is the reason I stopped carrying a Top Popper.

Shellback
10-26-2012, 03:43 PM
Would a rappelling carabiner fit the same description? The TP looks like it could be used for mountaineering too but of course it's primary function is opening bottles.

1113

Byron
10-26-2012, 03:55 PM
Would a rappelling carabiner fit the same description?
If you carry it, it's a carabiner. If you hit someone with it, it's a weapon.


The TP looks like it could be used for mountaineering too but of course it's primary function is opening bottles.
Funny you say that. I leave my keys on my desk all day long. In all the years of working in a large office, only a handful of people have ever mentioned it in any way. A few have tried to guess what it was, at least two of them asking whether it was a climbing tool.

I know some other forum members have told me that strangers were able to successfully guess what it was. Maybe a regional thing? Career thing? I don't know, but it hasn't been my personal experience.



Might have to be careful as those could be construid as brass knuckles which are banned in some areas.
Pat

My location is funny in that:

A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon of any kind concealed on or about the person.


So if they feel like charging you with carrying a weapon, they'll charge you with carrying a weapon. Assuming you punch someone in the face with an object, then are arrested, I'm pretty sure the object will be considered a "weapon" no matter what it was considered before the incident.

There are two exceptions that could potentially apply to citizens:

a holder of a permit to carry a handgun issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article; or

an individual who carries the weapon as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger, subject to the right of the court in an action arising under this section to judge the reasonableness of the carrying of the weapon, and the proper occasion for carrying it, under the evidence in the case.


So your two hopes here are
1. Get a permit (Not impossible, but very close to. Hopefully will change one day)
2. Argue to a court that you were justified in carrying said weapon. This will be an affirmative defense and will require a hefty sum of legal fees, I'm sure. I don't even have any idea if it has been tried in the past (someone must have, right?)

At the end of the day, we're all adults. We should all acquaint ourselves with local laws and decide how to balance our lives to maximize safety (both from criminals and prosecutors).

joshs
10-26-2012, 04:00 PM
Would a rappelling carabiner fit the same description? The TP looks like it could be used for mountaineering too but of course it's primary function is opening bottles.

Maybe. If you actually used the carbiner to defend yourself, and the state could prove that you had been carrying it concealed before you used it in self defense, then I certainly think an enterprising Commonwealth's Attorney might try to charge someone with carrying a concealed weapon. My worry with the Top Popper was that there is tons of publicly available information on its use beyond being a bottle opener.

Chuck Haggard
10-26-2012, 05:22 PM
Where's the freaking delete button?

dbateman
10-28-2012, 10:51 AM
Dobermann.

jiminsandiego
10-29-2012, 12:18 AM
This is a question as old as mankind. Finding your answer is not really a google kind of thing, however seeking knowledge of options is a good thing. If I am being attacked by a 12 year old boy.. push him away.... if that boy has a knife.. different story. In fact, aside from the gory part, a knife has been a well used option for thousands of years. A woman wants to get to her car at night.. A 12 inch (sharp) hunting knife carried in a paper bag is one option. She has it in her hand ready to use (while still in the bag) without anyone knowing it. Better than a knuckle thingy? Maybe. A weapon is useless if it's not in your hand..pepper spray, taser, gun, whatever. Street walkers tend to like something they can swing.. like a purse with a 5 pound weight in it (so I've been told). Pepper spray mmmm not so great unless you have another weapon in the other hand (club or knife). I could go on and on with options but what really matters is the intent to defend oneself. Fight or flight or just let it happen. The third option kinda sucks. If she thinks like she's defending her children well......
Good luck with your quest and remember.. before guns.. humans spent much of there time for thousands( if not millions) of years searching for your answer and there is an abundance of knowledge and options available (even on the internet).
Cheers,
Jim

Byron
10-29-2012, 08:02 AM
jiminsandiego -- Been reading a lot of Marc "Animal" MacYoung lately?

Tamara
10-29-2012, 08:31 AM
A woman wants to get to her car at night.. A 12 inch (sharp) hunting knife carried in a paper bag is one option. She has it in her hand ready to use (while still in the bag) without anyone knowing it.

That's going to be a little awkward at the grocery store...

shooter220
10-29-2012, 09:46 AM
All assume that someone has the mindset and training to land a punch. I wouldn't make that assumption with someone who has minimal training, and I certainly wouldn't want to encourage someone to go toe to toe with a known aggressor. The pepper spray dispensers that aren't shaped like a traditional can all seem to be pretty instinctive to me in terms of getting it on target (the ASP products, for instance).

-shooter

jiminsandiego
10-30-2012, 01:14 PM
Byron I'm not familiar with that literature and Tamara... The knife in a bag option is just another option, maybe for getting from your car to home or office, and for a person that honestly fears for their life (such as in a stalker situation). Another option would be to get someone to go with you. A predator will be much more likely to attack a single person as opposed to two people, as that greatly complicates his mission and increases the chance of a witness. Being aware of (and avoiding) bad situations and "choke points"( places that a predator can easily ambush) is also often advised. The difference in "mindset" between an upscale lady that doesn't really want to hurt an attacker and say a single mom from the "barrio" is worth studying. I feel that such devices as whistles, stun guns, key ring weapons and the like have the possibility of giving false confidence that may lead a person to a situation that they are frankly not prepared for. ( although I do not dismiss their value completely). If someone brandishes a weapon and demands your wallet a good option is to throw it on the ground and split. They probably just want your money ( they can have mine). A bad option is to give them your wallet and wait for further demands and the last thing you want is to go with them to a secondary crime scene like the back of the alley or a vehicle.
This is a subject that interest me and am interested in everyones input.
Jim

Sparks2112
10-30-2012, 03:28 PM
In a stalker situation, like say an angry ex husband, often times the second person acting as a deterant ends up being the second dead body.

Byron
10-31-2012, 09:50 AM
Byron I'm not familiar with that literature
I was admittedly being a bit snarky.

Much of your post just wasn't relevant to the topic at hand, nor did it frankly make a ton of sense. The original question was:

What is the next best alternative to a firearm?

To which your initial answer was:

This is a question as old as mankind.
We're not exploring mankind's quest for tools and weapons, or whatever you are saying is as old as mankind. We're simply talking about a female who wishes to carry a non-firearm weapon for self defense in modern society. There's no need to wax poetic.


A woman wants to get to her car at night.. A 12 inch (sharp) hunting knife carried in a paper bag is one option. She has it in her hand ready to use (while still in the bag) without anyone knowing it.
Certainly a deadly weapon, but almost certainly a useless suggestion.

While people are discussing the finer points of keychain illegality, do you think there are many jurisdictions where one can carry a 12" hunting knife in a paper bag?

It's also not a particularly convenient thing to carry around, no matter your gender or size. You are occupying one hand at all times with an unsheathed knife that you better be sure not to fall on, or drop, or bump into something.

And so what if people don't realize that it's a knife? The alternative is that everyone you walk by thinks you are "brown bagging." Not exactly low-profile to be walking around that way, especially once it becomes clear that you never put down whatever is in the bag, never use that hand for anything else, etc. How long does this poor woman have to carry this thing around in her hand? And where does she put it once she gets to her destination?

Ticket taker: "Um, ma'am, you can't bring outside beverages into the theater, especially not alcohol."
Hunting knife lady: "It's not alcohol. It's not a drink."
Ticket taker: "Well ma'am will you please show me what you're carrying into the theater then?"
Hunting knife lady: "Um.................. no."

Recommending a 12" hunting knife for carry is like recommending a Desert Eagle for carry. Sure it's mean and scary, but it will quickly be left behind once it becomes clear that it lacks any realistic ability to be carried on a regular basis.

This is also why I asked if you've been reading "Animal" books; I'm pretty sure I remember him recommending the old knife-in-a-bag trick in one of his old books. Or was that Don Pentecost? In any regard, tips for guys who run in biker crowds don't always apply neatly to your average citizen.


Better than a knuckle thingy? Maybe. A weapon is useless if it's not in your hand..pepper spray, taser, gun, whatever.
So you think that a 12" knife is more likely to be routinely carried (and therefore available to the hand) than an impact weapon or can of pepper spray on a keychain?

Also, you seem to be taking the "in the hand" thing very literally; only considering a tool carried directly in the hand. While in-fight-weapons-access is a royal pain in the ass, it's a reality that needs to be trained. Saying that anything not in the hand is useless is giving up before anything has started.


Street walkers tend to like something they can swing.. like a purse with a 5 pound weight in it (so I've been told).
I fail to see the relevance. Again, are you actually suggesting anyone do this? Carry a 5 pound weight in a purse?

What applies to "street walkers" (or what you've been told applies to "street walkers") isn't necessarily all that relevant to citizens in this case.


Pepper spray mmmm not so great unless you have another weapon in the other hand (club or knife).
Based on what experience do you offer this condemnation of pepper spray?


Finding your answer is not really a google kind of thing, however seeking knowledge of options is a good thing.
...
there is an abundance of knowledge and options available (even on the internet).
:confused:

Le Français
10-31-2012, 02:59 PM
A weapon is useless if it's not in your hand..pepper spray, taser, gun, whatever.

Interesting assertion. I myself find that with proper training things like actually drawing a pistol become possible, even under stress! Novel concept, I know...

cclaxton
10-31-2012, 03:34 PM
I was talking to a shooting buddy of mine and talking about non-firearm defenses. I made the argument that sticking someone with a knife doesn't stop an attack. He made the point that cutting the right muscles DOES stop an attack. His point was that keeping a super-sharp knife handy allows a defendant to cut muscles in the arms or thighs or legs and this will disable the physical attack.

I tend to agree with this argument, but it does require some training on which muscles to cut and some practice on dummies to be able to do this when actually under attack.

I am thus buying into the knife as best alternative argument, in combination with pepper spray and *maybe* a Stinger-like device.

Thanks,
CC

Byron
10-31-2012, 04:11 PM
I was talking to a shooting buddy of mine and talking about non-firearm defenses. I made the argument that sticking someone with a knife doesn't stop an attack. He made the point that cutting the right muscles DOES stop an attack. His point was that keeping a super-sharp knife handy allows a defendant to cut muscles in the arms or thighs or legs and this will disable the physical attack.
This is often referred to as "defanging the snake" in certain circles of martial artists. More specifically, the term refers to "disarming" an attacker not by directly stripping his weapon, but by rendering his attacking limbs useless.

It's great in theory, but isn't supported by a whole lot of real-world evidence.

There are numerous problems in applying it:
1. How well trained is the wielder of said knife that they are able to target specific muscle groups / tendons?
2. Assuming that they are perfect at targeting, what says they can hit those targets in the process of a knock-down drag-out fight?
3. Why would we take a strategy that no one advocates for firearms (i.e. shoot the arms/legs) and apply it to a tool that has an even worse track record for street stoppages?

Not to mention the general resilience of the human body. How often to you read about a horrible accident where someone has some part of their body severed by heavy machinery, yet they still are able to continue functioning and summon help? How often do you read about people suffering injuries that "should" have produced some result (death, paralysis, whatever), but did not?

I have yet to hear a credible story of this theory working. Sure, I've heard of plenty of psychological stops - an attacker who decides it's no longer worth it - but never heard of an attacker who halted aggression because his tendons were severed by a knife. Even in places like the Philippines with heavy knife culture, where plenty of people espouse this, you don't hear credible stories.

On the other hand, I have read plenty of credible stories about people who kept using a limb that "should" have been rendered useless. One from a Chicago cop:


...The victim had been jumped by several males inside the bar with the fight migrating outside. In the course of the fight, the victims right forearm was severly cut by glass, a puncture wound approximately 3 inches wide, 2 inches deep. It looks like someone fileted his forearm, just a few inches below the elbow, right in the middle of the muscle belly.

He was unconcious when units arrived and during transport. When my bud arrived at the ER to get a status report from the staff, he heard a huge commotion and the nurses were yelling for him to get back there.

He got back to the room to find his victim had woke up and was now in full on freak out mode, he had picked up the IV stand and was swinging it like a baseball bat. My bud was able to get him to mellow out enough to put the stand down, but he wouldn't let it go. When they were finally able to talk him into getting back on the bed and let staff attend to him, he still wouldn't let go of the stand. When my bud started to take the stand away, the guy started to freak out a little again and according to my bud, "had a freaking death grip on that thing, with the arm that had a big ass hole in it, his good arm was already strapped down, he didn't let go of the stand until the dope they were jacking into him hit".

Edited to add: defanging is one of those endless controversies on knife forums, kind of like .45 vs 9mm on gun forums. The difference is that the .45 vs 9mm argument at least has some discussion of evidence in it ;)

jiminsandiego
10-31-2012, 06:17 PM
First off I never suggested anyone do anything. Just giving examples of options used by others. Obviously nobody is going to constantly carry a knife in a bag, and the weight in a purse is simply an example of another option other people have used. I firmly believe that carrying a weapon is beneficial to self defense however up until the point that you have it in hand it is of little use. The legal implications in defending oneself is an important consideration however I am not addressing this facet of the subject. I apologize if I strayed too far from the initial question, however I believe this to be a very old and very complex question that can not be easily answered. I went to a class to get a permit for pepper spray in California (used to be required). I recently witnessed a fight where pepper spray was used excessively at very close range that had virtually no effect until it was over and the cops were there (then he was really hurting from it). I really hope that whatever option and training level that this woman decides on will add to her safety and also hope that she bases her decisions on sound professional advice (ideally from several sources) and not from random guys on the internet (like me).
Cheers,
Jim

JodyH
10-31-2012, 06:52 PM
Good thing about a sharp knife is even shallow cuts bleed... a lot.
People tend to lose focus and enthusiasm when they are bleeding.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2

JHC
10-31-2012, 06:53 PM
I was talking to a shooting buddy of mine and talking about non-firearm defenses. I made the argument that sticking someone with a knife doesn't stop an attack. He made the point that cutting the right muscles DOES stop an attack. His point was that keeping a super-sharp knife handy allows a defendant to cut muscles in the arms or thighs or legs and this will disable the physical attack.

I tend to agree with this argument, but it does require some training on which muscles to cut and some practice on dummies to be able to do this when actually under attack.

I am thus buying into the knife as best alternative argument, in combination with pepper spray and *maybe* a Stinger-like device.

Thanks,
CC

FWIW
Some years ago Dallas, TX closed a large number of rape cases when the serial rapist grabbed a gal in a parking area and she stabbed him in the heart. The woman won't be sparring like the escrima videos. Attacker is closing and may have already grabbed part of her. She stabs and rips him in the neck upper chest etc and fighting like a badger. No guarantees in life.

Alaskapopo
11-01-2012, 01:42 AM
Byron I'm not familiar with that literature and Tamara... The knife in a bag option is just another option, maybe for getting from your car to home or office, and for a person that honestly fears for their life (such as in a stalker situation). Another option would be to get someone to go with you. A predator will be much more likely to attack a single person as opposed to two people, as that greatly complicates his mission and increases the chance of a witness. Being aware of (and avoiding) bad situations and "choke points"( places that a predator can easily ambush) is also often advised. The difference in "mindset" between an upscale lady that doesn't really want to hurt an attacker and say a single mom from the "barrio" is worth studying. I feel that such devices as whistles, stun guns, key ring weapons and the like have the possibility of giving false confidence that may lead a person to a situation that they are frankly not prepared for. ( although I do not dismiss their value completely). If someone brandishes a weapon and demands your wallet a good option is to throw it on the ground and split. They probably just want your money ( they can have mine). A bad option is to give them your wallet and wait for further demands and the last thing you want is to go with them to a secondary crime scene like the back of the alley or a vehicle.
This is a subject that interest me and am interested in everyones input.
Jim

Less lethal weapons are just like any other tool they are a great asset if you know how to use them and if you don't they are not a lot of help. Some however are very easy to use like Pepper Spray. Saying a weapon not in your hand is useless is wrong. I don't walk around with my pistol in my hand on patrol either but I don't think its useless. You need to practice on deploying it rabidly and subtly at times.
Pat

Alaskapopo
11-01-2012, 01:43 AM
Good thing about a sharp knife is even shallow cuts bleed... a lot.
People tend to lose focus and enthusiasm when they are bleeding.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2

True however some people don't even realize their bleeding when the fight is on.
Pat

JDB
11-01-2012, 01:10 PM
Less lethal weapons are just like any other tool they are a great asset if you know how to use them and if you don't they are not a lot of help. Some however are very easy to use like Pepper Spray. Saying a weapon not in your hand is useless is wrong. I don't walk around with my pistol in my hand on patrol either but I don't think its useless. You need to practice on deploying it rabidly and subtly at times.
Pat

Don't think I want to be around for practice of the rabid deployment of anything, especially pepper spray.

JodyH
11-01-2012, 02:39 PM
Rabid is the new dynamic.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2

Alaskapopo
11-03-2012, 04:43 PM
Don't think I want to be around for practice of the rabid deployment of anything, especially pepper spray.
Thats not what I meant obviously but it sounds cool. Rabid deploypment.
Pat

Tamara
11-04-2012, 07:02 AM
Thats not what I meant obviously but it sounds cool. Rabid deploypment.
Pat

Sufficiently rabid deployment makes any weapon more effective. Deployed rabidly enough, it might not even need to be used. :D

JDM
11-04-2012, 08:41 PM
After my experiences during the last 60 hours, a small fixed blade knife on the centerline. I'm a huge believer in the clinch pick concept now.

orionz06
11-04-2012, 08:48 PM
After my experiences during the last 60 hours, a small fixed blade knife on the centerline. I'm a huge believer in the clinch pick concept now.

Have fun?

JDM
11-04-2012, 09:18 PM
Have fun?

A tremendous amount. ECQC is one of the best things I have ever done for myself.



I'll eventually write an AAR detailing the fun, but for now, the first sims round that I got shot with landed right on my gentleman's sausage. FUN

jiminsandiego
11-09-2012, 02:37 AM
The original question essentially is what is the "best" alternative to carrying a firearm. Most effective? Most convenient? Most likely to be used? Most favored by your lawyer? etc..So (in my opinion) "best" can be defined in many ways. I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion and would like to add that stun guns seemed to have come a long way in the last few years. Recently I bought a rechargeable stun gun that is about the size of a pack of cigarettes (for about $50). I forget the number of volts (2 million maybe). It has a lanyard that disables it if it is taken away from you and is extremely inconspicuous to hold in your hand. Not to be confused with tasers these "new" breed of stun guns seemed to be a viable option, especially in warmer areas where heavy clothing is not a consideration. Of course it will only work if you are right next to the attacker but from my limited experience it should definitely cause a reaction and from personal experience they hurt like hell. Until they sell phasers that we can set on "stun" like Star Trek we have to make do with whats available.
Jim

BLACK
11-20-2012, 12:57 PM
My girlfriend is not inclined to carry a firearm although she said she is willing to use something else. She does have pepper-spray, but it brought up an interesting question for me too since I can't carry "everywhere."

What is the next best alternative to a firearm?
Mace/Pepper Spray;
Taser;
Stun-Guns;
Knives;
Tactical Flashlight stun guns;
Expandable Stun Wands;
Keychain attached

Combinations?

What's the consensus?

Thanks,
CC

Be advised, I skimmed through most of the posts before inserting my worthless .02 below.
The best weapon is a positive mental attitude and the mindset to prevail at all costs.
Mental preparation is huge, especially when getting into the use of labor saving devices on other animals and the ability to prevail. Survival is good but preservation is best.
My option is the edged device as I carry an exposed fixed blade on my hip everyday along with 2 folders concealed.
My wife is getting in the habit of carrying an exposed fixed blade on her hip but she does not fancy having as much metal on her person as I do. My daughter is being exposed to edged devices as well but she is not quite old enough to understand the great responsibility that comes with carrying a blade so she has not been affixed with one yet....soon though.
Knives are intimate objects which require contact at sweat swapping, bad breath distances so the biggest hurdle is getting over the intimate nature of the device and the fact that there will be blood.
I try to advocate daily use of the blade for whatever tasks it can be used for so the user understands its nature and doesnt end up seeing more of their own blood than that of other animals. I advocate using the knife to prepare meat so one understands its merits and its limitations. They can also get a feel for how muscle, tendons, ligaments and bone react to the device. Above all else, dynamic immersion in a realistic training environment where violence is habituated is key to building the muscle memory that will allow the user to lay down the hate without reserve.
I presume we are all growed up enough to understand that violence is not a tool that is used to solve social problems. I will say that the mere presence of that big ass knife on the hip is a deterrent in and of itself and anyone that sees it understands what it can do. Predators dont pick hard targets, especially if they know it could cost them everything.

As a side note, being married to a certain device is not a good plan. Situationla awareness and improvisation are key factors in self preservation.
Sometimes a rock to the head is the best option becuase its the only one.

Excuse the rant and forgive any grammatical errors.







SALUS

Skaaphaas
11-21-2012, 07:13 AM
I haven't not carried a gun in some time so I had to think what I carried! Knife, always, and usually more than one. It is devastating at close range. While probably not as deadly as a gun it causes immense trauma and is likely to end th attack. Pepper spray for longer distances and keeping that distance, and on the bicycle I carried an ASP baton.

The stun guns are a hit and miss. Over here, I think they are largely a miss, though.

cclaxton
11-21-2012, 08:24 AM
Thanks, again, to everyone who contributed to this thread. It has changed my view on the value of carrying a knife and the limited value of a Taser/Stungun and raised the value of pepper spray. I also appreciated the mental attitude postings, and the use of a bright flashlight as a deterrence.

My girlfriend works at a hospital and they were recently required to attend a "violence in the workplace" training where she learned a number of self-defense tactics to fend off physical attacks. She showed me a few of them and I was very impressed with how quickly she was able to react and how well she was able to implement these relatively simple measures. She learned these very effective techniques in just 4 hours of training!!!

Here is my action plan for my girlfriend and my daughter:
Purchase high intensity flashlights with holsters and lanyards so they can access them quickly;
Purchase two fixed-blade knives with belt-mounted sheaths. I am looking at 2-3" blades;
Purchase a half-dozen Stingers to put on keychains, keep in strategic places;
Give them more practice with pepper spray deployment and make sure they at least two working mace devices;
Send them to self-defense courses to reinforce use of physical tactics to escape a physical attack;
Send them to a course designed to make decisions about when to use which defense tactics and general self-defense strategies.

I am looking for suggestions on the following:
- Best type of knife/sheath for carry;
- Good self-defense courses in Richmond and NoVa areas that will teach them the use of these devices and self-defense strategies.

Thanks,
CC

Skold
11-21-2012, 11:43 AM
Paul Moore just sent me a picture of the knife and trainer he made for me.

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd460/Jerry_Campbell/IMG_0280JPGsrc.jpg

Kyle Reese
11-21-2012, 11:49 AM
Nice blades. I bought a very similar PM knife from a forum member here about 9 months ago.

Tamara
11-23-2012, 07:02 AM
I will say that the mere presence of that big ass knife on the hip is a deterrent in and of itself and anyone that sees it understands what it can do. Predators dont pick hard targets, especially if they know it could cost them everything.

Leaving aside the argument of who criminals pick to jack up, I have to say that in a lot of environments, and certainly where I live, a "big ass knife on the hip" is simply a no-go. Were I to open-carry my heater, as long as I was well-groomed and wearing neutral clothing, most folks wouldn't bat an eye. A gun on the hip in that situation registers to most people as "cop". (And even then, the occasional remark or question is enough to get me to wear a gun burkha, because I ain't got time for that.) A big knife on the hip is going to either read to passersby as "Jason from Camp Crystal Lake" or "Weirdo Who's Escaped From The Renaissance Faire And Could Go Aurora Batman Premiere At Any Moment".

Further, I question the willingness of someone who is not willing to pack a J-frame to strap on their Crocodile Dundee every morning, even if you get them a sheath that matches their Dooney & Bourkes and is dress-code compliant at the bank.

LittleLebowski
11-23-2012, 09:43 AM
Gotta agree with Tam; seeing a big knife on someone's hip in public doesn't impress me in the slightest.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

BLR
11-23-2012, 12:07 PM
Gotta agree with Tam; seeing a big knife on someone's hip in public doesn't impress me in the slightest.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Yep. What ever happened to keeping a low profile? Staying off the radar? I'd just assume everyone I meet on the street forget me 5 seconds after seeing me.

One thing I learned by a mom that didn't hesitate to dole out a bit of corporal punishment: a low profile is the only way to go.