Different Pistols for Different Officers

[jnc36rcpd]

A discussion of DSS qualification courses mentioned that special agents have the option of running either a Glock 19 or a Glock 26 on duty. That piqued my interest in department policies and practices.

The SIG 226, in 9mm and later .40, was issue in my former agencies. In 9mm days, a couple of officers with smaller hand had the SIG 228. Detectives were additionally issued a SIG 230. After I moved into firearms training, we gave detectives the option of the 239, though most stayed with the big gun. We later authorized the 239 for uniform officers with smaller hands. An officer assigned to an outside special investigative unit had a Glock 27 which was carried in that group.

When we transitioned to the FNS-9, everyone was issued the same gun except for street crime officers who could carry the compact version.

As I understand it today, the Glock 17 is standard issue though some have Glock 19's. (I suspect detectives and perhaps others.) The chief is issued a Glock 26.

Do your agencies authorize different pistols for different units or people? Do you have a separate course of fire. At my former department, we just waited for the 239 officers to stuff magazines and catch up, but the DSS system seems a better test of skill at arms? Any blowback from officers? I suspect we had some resentment in my former employer since the 239 officers were all smaller females.

Thanks and be safe.

[Utm]

Everyone gets a g45 mos with trijicon rmr. Only exception is undercover dudes get a g48 (non mos) as well. Use to do the g22 and g23 but because it made logistics easier when we transitioned to 9mm, no other options are approved.

[SoCalDep]

We issue the S&W M&P9 M2.0 but have a pretty big authorized list for personally owned pistols. Our Special Enforcement Bureau (SWAT) has gone back and forth since the early 80s between staying with general department guidelines and running their own stuff, but they still have all the options available to the rest of the department.

We have everything from 1911s, 2011s, Berettas, Sig DA/SA, M&Ps, Glocks, a bunch of HK models, and several others. There is a prerequisite course of fire to pass prior to taking the 1911/2011 class and a different one prior to taking the pistol optic class.

Once authorized (initial training completed) to carry a particular pistol the qualification is the same for everyone.

SEB and some units do independent training and have standards, but that is in addition to the basic department standard.

[Erick Gelhaus]

My old org still has a very liberal policy re issued & personally owned weapons. During my time there, the issued handguns were Model 66s, G22's, and G17s. With the exception of three years when I carried an issued G17.4, I carried 1911s and M&Ps 1.0/2.0.

Off the top of my head, we had ... a variety of wheel guns in different calibers including .45LC, pistols included Berettas, H&Ks incl P7s, any flavor of 3 & 4 digit Smiths, 1911s, Paras, Glock 20s & 21s, Staccatos, M&Ps, etc.

We supplied duty & training ammo; we inspected them as often as we inspected issued pistols; replacement post-OIS left things to be desired. There was one perceived "issue" re one of them after an OIS.

With the G22s, Gen 3 & Gen 4, defectives got G27s. Fixed that fast when we went to G17.5s, non-uniformed deputies got G19s.

[Jason M]

My department gives all of the sworn officers their choice of an issued Glock 19, 17, or 45. Like others, we have a very broad personally owned weapons policy. There are a few who carry a personally owned 43X or Shield plus when at court or during other on the clock hours outside of uniform.

PA requires any officer using a gun for "duty" to qualify using the "duty" course of fire. There is an "off-duty/backup" course what is used for that or LEOSA quals. PA does not allow qualification for any law enforcement purpose with less than .38 spl/.380. Most officers shoot the "duty" course with all of their weapons of record.

[vcdgrips]

NOTE-Not a member of the agency. They are a primary client agency and I train with them regularly. Historically, officers bought their guns via a paycheck deduction.

They went Glock 40 in the late 90s (22 uniformed/23 detective/27 detective or off duty) after using the SW 4026 (early 90s ) and the Sigma (for about 9 days LOL) after being a 6 shot K Frame/5 shot J frame shop forever. There was a gradual mandate away from revolvers/4026s that attrition took care of for all practical purposes

Fairly early on, small handed officers got Robar reduced Glocks.

Quals were the std agency quals. There was a special 5 shot qual but most of they time they shot the standard one and were given the time to top off the 5 shot.

In the mid 201xs, the policy for off duty got expanded outside of the G27/5 shot J frame to a whole host of 9/40/45 caliber platforms. NO ammo support for the 9 or 45 though.

In the past couple of years 9mm Glock has been authorized for Duty/Detective use. They plan is that recruits will be issued a Glock with a 509T and a Streamlight/Night Stick Light. Today, there is PMO transition course and adoption of PMOs is ongoing and widespread across all units and ages.

The plan is to incorporate the PMO into the training regimen from day 1.

The G43/48 are quite popular for off duty though more and more younger officers are dressing around their duty gun.

IDK if “Robar” pistols are still in the mix given the Gen4/5 backstraps etc.

[Lon]

When I got hired at my agency we were allowed to choose b/t a 226 and a 228. The idea being (according to them) that officers with smaller hands would probably choose the 228. The Chief was concerned about the old magazine sharing thing.

Circa ‘06 I finally convinced the brass that some of our officers needed a better option. Enter the Glock 17/19 option, but only on the recommendation of the training staff. So now we had the 226/228/G17/G19 in service.

When we went to buy new guns in ‘21, I finally convinced the Chief to open it up with some more choices. All optic ready. So now we have the option of MOS G17/19; Sig 320/320Carry and the M&P 2.0 OR.

Took 3 rookies to the range yesterday. After trying all the options they settled on - G17, G19 and M&P.

Optics are optional and Officer purchased. We put you thru a transition course if you wanna run optics. 507c/508T/509 and RMR are approved optics.

Everyone shoots the 25 round state qual for duty pistols. Off duty/BUG shoot an 8 round state course instead.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I’m one who believes in one department one gun. Reduced administrative overhead and if SHTF, no questions regarding magazine compatibility.

I issue the Glock 45 MOS, 509T, and TLR7. Off duty and BUG are authorized from an approved list.

[1Rangemaster]

When I got hired at my agency we were allowed to choose b/t a 226 and a 228. The idea being (according to them) that officers with smaller hands would probably choose the 228. The Chief was concerned about the old magazine sharing thing.

Circa ‘06 I finally convinced the brass that some of our officers needed a better option. Enter the Glock 17/19 option, but only on the recommendation of the training staff. So now we had the 226/228/G17/G19 in service.

When we went to buy new guns in ‘21, I finally convinced the Chief to open it up with some more choices. All optic ready. So now we have the option of MOS G17/19; Sig 320/320Carry and the M&P 2.0 OR.

Took 3 rookies to the range yesterday. After trying all the options they settled on - G17, G19 and M&P.

Optics are optional and Officer purchased. We put you thru a transition course if you wanna run optics. 507c/508T/509 and RMR are approved optics.

Everyone shoots the 25 round state qual for duty pistols. Off duty/BUG shoot an 8 round state course instead.

Lon : do you have the course for the 8 round course? Or a link? Curious about it-thanks.

[Lon]

Lon : do you have the course for the 8 round course? Or a link? Curious about it-thanks.

Here ya go.

https://www.lepd.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/08-2019-Website-Link.pdf

[1Rangemaster]

Thank you sir.

Edited to add: one of the shorter ones I know of. Frank Repass had a “one shot qual” years ago and I appreciate this…

[TC215]

When I started at my old department, we had USP .45’s for patrol and USPc .45’s for CID. Towards the end of the HK era, I think a couple female officers were allowed to carry compacts on patrol because of their hand-size. In 2014, SWAT got 1911’s.

We switched to Glock 21’s in 2016, I think. CID/Admin got Glock 30’s if they wanted them.

Us drug guys were the only ones that didn’t have to carry the company gun. By the end of my time there, we were all carrying G19’s.

That department is now moving towards G45’s with optics.

Current department issues 19M’s and G43’s, but allow any 9mm Glocks for POWs. G45’s are popular with the “gun guys” and firearms instructors, and 43X/48’s are popular with a lot of the people that don’t want to be bothered with carrying a gun.

I’m a proponent of giving people options.

[Lon]

Thank you sir.

Edited to add: one of the shorter ones I know of. Frank Repass had a “one shot qual” years ago and I appreciate this…

There was a staff instructor up at the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy that was advocating a single shot qual 10 years ago.

[HCM]

I’m one who believes in one department one gun. Reduced administrative overhead and if SHTF, no questions regarding magazine compatibility.

I issue the Glock 45 MOS, 509T, and TLR7. Off duty and BUG are authorized from an approved list.

AFAIK there has either never been an example of mag compatibility being a factor in a CONUS LE shooting or there is one. Depends on who you ask.,

Not to mention, if you blow through your ammo, not giving you mine.

We tried one gun for everybody with the Beretta, 96D and again with the HK USP Compact. It sucked.

[HCM]

We issue everyone a SIG P320 PRO Carry with the X carry grip and a SIG optic. This 17 round grip is available in SM, MED and LG.

The X Compact grip and 15 round mags were recently authorized as an option for issued guns.

Our SRT folks were issued a full sized 320 in Coyote tan with a magwell.

We have a POW list consisting of SIG and Glock Striker fired 9mms:

- SIG 320s (no porting, lightening cuts, manual safeties or Tungsten grips) otherwise most OEM slides, grips and accessories are ok.
-SIG P365, 365X, 365XL and non ported versions of the Macro.
- Glock 17,19,26, and 45 (Gen 3,4, or 5). Gen 5 guns must have the breach face cut.

For POWs, we allow factory optics, ready models or having guns cut for one of our approved optics.

We use the same qualification course for all handguns. No restrictions on what size magazines are used wax long as they are OEM.

[DaBigBR]

Issued gun is a Glock 17. Most are Gen 5 MOS, some are non-MOS, and there are a couple Gen 4s out there. Just depends on when we bought them. The next purchases will be 47s. Our transition from .40 was gradual at first. when we were on .40, everybody got a 22 and detectives and admin got a 23 also.

Personally owned gun policy allows the Glock 17, 19, 34, 45, and 47. Plainclothes and admin can also carry the 26, 43X, and 48. Optics are on your own subject to an approved list. MOS, aftermarket slides, and milled factory slides on personal guns are ok. Range staff must approve of any mods (including whose slide you buy or who you use for milling).

Our personally owned handgun program was a significant departure from past practice and it took three different chiefs to make it happen. We just had to wait for a guy that was willing to listen. Qualification course is the same regardless. We haven't had any real issues that I can think of. We did have a guy involved in a shooting with his own gun. He was issued a city gun until his was returned.

[TC215]

AFAIK there has either never been an example of mag compatibility being a factor in a CONUS LE shooting or there is one. Depends on who you ask.,

Not to mention, if you blow through your ammo, not giving you mine.

We tried one gun for everybody with the Beretta, 96D and again with the HK USP Compact. It sucked.


I posted a video here years ago that shows an officer running out of ammo and asking his back-up officer for a magazine. You hear the officer say something along the lines of “No, I have a Glock” and then he is shot (non-fatally). I can’t find the video right now, but I think that’s the only instance I’ve ever been able to find. I believe the likelihood of something like that happening is so small it shouldn’t even be a concern.

I also figure that if the largest departments in the United States don’t have any administrative issues with officers/agents running different types of pistols, nobody else should either.

[Screwball]

I posted a video here years ago that shows an officer running out of ammo and asking his back-up officer for a magazine. You hear the officer say something along the lines of “No, I have a Glock” and then he is shot (non-fatally). I can’t find the video right now, but I think that’s the only instance I’ve ever been able to find. I believe the likelihood of something like that happening is so small it shouldn’t even be a concern.

I also figure that if the largest departments in the United States don’t have any administrative issues with officers/agents running different types of pistols, nobody else should either.

I know BP has the option for 47 or 19… and many I’ve seen went 19. OFO is just 19 across the board, but have been talks to allow the option in the future.

If it happens, I’m planning on the 47. Not being able to grab another officer’s 19 magazine might be a downside… but I like the larger gun. Besides, 1 in the gun, 3 on my belt and 1 on my vest should be enough (86 rounds). If not, I’m hoping someone got an M4 out.

[TheNewbie]

The one gun for everyone sounds nice theory, but I am not so sure in practice. Have any fights been lost because an officer reasonably expended all of their ammo, was carrying plenty of spare ammo, but their partners didn't have compatible magazines/ammo?


Maybe buy Glocks as replacement guns in case an officer's gun goes into evidence, but allow for a reasonable POW list. Like TC said, if the largest agencies can do, so can you.

[TheNewbie]

I know BP has the option for 47 or 19… and many I’ve seen went 19. OFO is just 19 across the board, but have been talks to allow the option in the future.

If it happens, I’m planning on the 47. Not being able to grab another officer’s 19 magazine might be a downside… but I like the larger gun. Besides, 1 in the gun, 3 on my belt and 1 on my vest should be enough (86 rounds). If not, I’m hoping someone got an M4 out.



I was happy with 37 rounds in the P226!



Man I give it to the guys that want to carry all that spare ammo on them, but with everything else that is carried, I am content with two reloads. The weight adds up quick. Heck, I am envious of Reed and Malloy, they hardly carried anything.

[HCM]

I know BP has the option for 47 or 19… and many I’ve seen went 19. OFO is just 19 across the board, but have been talks to allow the option in the future.

If it happens, I’m planning on the 47. Not being able to grab another officer’s 19 magazine might be a downside… but I like the larger gun. Besides, 1 in the gun, 3 on my belt and 1 on my vest should be enough (86 rounds). If not, I’m hoping someone got an M4 out.

Issue G19 carriers one 15 round mag and two 17 round G17/47 mags.

Not only does that address the non-issue of magazine capacity, but 16+ one of the gun and two extra 17 rounders is exactly 50 rounds…. administrators love this kind of stuff.

Regarding the five pistol Mags, my back hurts just thinking about it. How often are you working by yourself? Unless you’re doing something like solo maritime inspections, you’re probably around several coworkers, the majority of the time. Even if they suck, quantity has a quality all its own.

The argument for giving a choice of the 19 or the 47 is people come in all shapes and sizes. If you can give someone an option that lets them shoot better with minimal administrative burden there’s no good reason not to.

[Screwball]

I was happy with 37 rounds in the P226!

Man I give it to the guys that want to carry all that spare ammo on them, but with everything else that is carried, I am content with two reloads. The weight adds up quick. Heck, I am envious of Reed and Malloy, they hardly carried anything.


Issue G19 carriers one 15 round mag and two 17 round G17/47 mags.

Not only does that address the non-issue of magazine capacity, but 16+ one of the gun and two extra 17 rounders is exactly 50 rounds…. administrators love this kind of stuff.

Regarding the five pistol Mags, my back hurts just thinking about it. How often are you working by yourself? Unless you’re doing something like solo maritime inspections, you’re probably around several coworkers, the majority of the time. Even if they suck, quantity has a quality all its own.

The argument for giving a choice of the 19 or the 47 is people come in all shapes and sizes. If you can give someone an option that lets them shoot better with minimal administrative burden there’s no good reason not to.

I opted to keep the radio off my belt… so, magazines, gun, baton, two handcuffs, insulin pump and taser (second to last one sort of needed [emoji6]). Radio, tourniquet and whatever else I’m forgetting about… on my carrier. Back currently isn’t the issue… like 10 pounds/2” of waist is.

For the 5 magazines, we unfortunately are still dealing with the aftermath of a crappy tactics Chief… and the current one is in DC (head not in the game). Same guy that argued realtor locks for the rack keys were necessary.

Our port has three outports that are 2 person ports. One actually has an M4 in a rack (it is in the sticks… like backup would take over an hour to get there). Another has the rack, but as of two weeks ago… no M4 (maybe 40 minute response time, but BP has their boats for the lake nearby). The third… nada (30 minutes, but also closer to the highway that state/locals could get there quicker). I still have the emails with my safety complaints about it from 2020 when I started being stationed out there.

If I go to one outport (one that the M4 is MIA) with my own truck, my SBR is in it. Depending on the officer, I usually show them and hope for the best. The others… I drive in a marked vehicle, which does not have an M4. We have some officers that I wouldn’t hesitate going into hell with (very competent shooters; exFAMS, Marksmanship Unit, people who realize that s*** could actually happen)… but we have others who worry me more about shooting me in the back (another reason I hate TSA). Only good thing is one or two of the outports may be closed.

That is nice to know about the 17 round spares, and does work out well. I don’t know if OFO would do it, but probably. That would make it a no brainer for me… as the 17 grip fits me better.

For the option, we all thought that how it was going to be. I personally was never a fan of the 19… but liked it better than the P2000 (didn’t hate the H&K, but prefer 9mm from a logistics standpoint… why my J-frame is now 9mm [emoji41]).

[TGS]

I’m one who believes in one department one gun. Reduced administrative overhead and if SHTF, no questions regarding magazine compatibility.

This isn't a great choice for an agency whose personnel may perform a variety of roles. If the agency mission/roles are fairly homogenous, sure. To use your department example, I'm not sure I could make a fullsize USP work for the variety of work I do, where last week I was in full "battle rattle" serving warrants, and the coming week we are doing covert work. In other terms, sure, I could make a subcompact "work" for the sake of warrant service though it's not ideal, but I sure wouldn't want to saddle our tactical team or Marshals RTF agents with only a subcompact for their exclusively overt/tactical mission sets, and it'd be similarly shitty for the tactical team or RTF guys to have a gun optimized for that work and every other agent who regularly conceals for work at the very least if not perform covert work end up having to lug a fullsize pistol. That's just dumb.

Right tool for the right mission.

[DDTSGM]

I’m one who believes in one department one gun. Reduced administrative overhead and if SHTF, no questions regarding magazine compatibility.

I issue the Glock 45 MOS, 509T, and TLR7. Off duty and BUG are authorized from an approved list.

My thought is that reduced administrative overhead is not worth sacrificing officer safety. And trying to shoot a pistol that is too large for your hands under stress is a safety issue.

The ability to exchange magazines in a combat situation is not more important than being able to deliver fast, accurate shots.

It has been my observation that smaller statured officers, often females, are hampered in their efforts to become police shooters because of ill-fitting pistols. I got so fvcking tired of trying to instruct folks who couldn't come close to putting the pistol properly in the 'vee' of their hand and reach the trigger. Kind of fundamental in teaching grip, especially a grip to be used in stressful situations.

[Ndbbm]

I know BP has the option for 47 or 19… and many I’ve seen went 19. OFO is just 19 across the board, but have been talks to allow the option in the future.

If it happens, I’m planning on the 47. Not being able to grab another officer’s 19 magazine might be a downside… but I like the larger gun. Besides, 1 in the gun, 3 on my belt and 1 on my vest should be enough (86 rounds). If not, I’m hoping someone got an M4 out.

We recently approved personally owned Glock MOS guns to get a red dot program going. Glock 17 MOS, 19 MOS, and 45 MOS were approved (I’m assuming 47 MOS will be ok as well with the 17 MOS guns going away). If you're carrying a 19 your spare magazines are required to be Glock 17 magazines to avoid that potential issue. Several of the guys that switched to a 19 are using a Glock 17 magazines in the gun to start if they in a uniform or marked capacity with an external holster, and switching to the 19 magazine in the gun concealed off duty or plain clothes.

Our special investigations get issued an additional Glock 43x in addition to a duty pistol.


Jason

[HCountyGuy]

Local PD issues 17 or 19, mix of Gen4 and 5, per officer preference and/or performance. The cool folks who made it on to the SWAT team get to carry Gen 5 Glock 34s with RMRs. Some CID and admin types carry 26s.

[ST911]

One size fits all mandates are some combination of invalid, indefensible, and negligent for CONUS LE and must be destroyed.

[jnc36rcpd]

I know of one verified case of an officer running dry and someone passing him aa spare magazine. Jeff Chudwin recounted it in an article which I can't find. An officer investigating a suspicious vehicle was shot and wounded, but remained in the fight, eventually exhausting all thirty-seven rounds from his SIG 229. Someone threw him a spare magazine which was useless. If I recall correctly, someone got the officer a shotgun, but the incident was resolved by that point.

Jeff's point was that this was a black swan event and we shouldn't base policy around it. I have also heard that a motor officer behind cover during the North Hollywood bank robbery used multiple Beretta 92 magazine passed to him Two black swan events are not necessarily a flock.

There is more argument for standardized weapons in specialized teams. Even the 1911-centric Texas Rangers are mandated to carry the SIG 320 when deployed with inter-division DPS Special Operations Group assignments.

I do believe the availability of different-sized grips with most duty pistols significantly reduces the need and desire for different weapons. I coached an officer to get her through the county academy and later to ensure she qualified with her .40 SIG 226. She now shoots high nineties or better with her county-issue Glock 17.

[Jim Watson]

City PD here used to have an approved list, even 1911 if you could qualify at SWAT or Instructor level.
Now it is all Glock 9mm.

I have a Sig P225 from that earlier era, a policewoman got it for its comfortable single stack grip but could not master the DA/SA. So she traded it in on a Glock.

I don't know what the county is doing.

[Beat Trash]

The agency I retired from issued the M&P 2.0 full size to the masses and the 12 shot 2.0 subcompact as an optional issued gun to investigative units, most of which stayed with the full size 2.0.

A question I have for those agencies that have multiple choices for issued pistols and/or various personal owned, department approved weapons: when your officer is involved in a shooting and their weapon is taken into custody, what are they given as a loaner pistol?

We kept a handful of spare M&P 2.0’s at our Homicide unit. The officer was given a loaner pistol after their interview was done so they were not walking out the door of a police facility unarmed.

Do you keep a couple of each type of gun available to your officers to be used as loaners for officers involved in a police intervention shooting?

[MD7305]

Everyone here gets a full size M&P9 M2.0 with a TLR1 with the exception of the Chief who carries a M&P9 M2.0 Compact. Our Street Crimes guys carry Shield M2.0s along with some Admin.

We're about to replace our existing guns with Optic Ready M&P9 M2.0s with an undecided RDS. Shields are being replaced by Shield Plus models with optics as well. We T&Ed a Glock 45 but everyone really preferred the M&P, especially with the newer flat trigger.

In my immediate area I don't know of many departments that authorize a list of approved guns or even letting officers pick. Some allow 1911s for certain folks and others allow personally owned rifles but that's the extent of it.

Off Duty is pretty open here as long as it's .380 caliber or greater, not SAO, and you can qualify with it. We couldn't carry RDS off duty until I attended a class and was able to give a brief block of instruction for those interested. I personally like the idea of at least approving a few options aside from the issued gun and allowing officers to carry one of the options at their own expense.

[Hambo]

One size fits all mandates are some combination of invalid, indefensible, and negligent for CONUS LE and must be destroyed.

Some part of the idea goes back to revolver days, when some departments loaded their own ammo. Scott Reitz said in a podcast that part LAPD's gear issue was how you looked in line at inspection. Now it's nickel and dime because of ammo, armorer courses, who has the power and sees a shiny thing, and who gets wined and dined by company reps.

[BK14]

Glock Gen 5 17s are the primary issue. Depending on assignment, or hand size, a 19 or 26 is an optional issue. We issue TLR-1 lights and 509Ts once through a transition school.

We’ve had a list of authorized personally owned guns, including various Glock models, as well as other brands. We’re now 9mm exclusive, with no other authorized calibers. And new guys aren’t allowed to run personally owned guns anymore.

We’ve eliminated most of the non-Glock options from our approved list besides a few exceptions like M&P, and a few select 1911/2011 guns. Many of our specialty units are using personally owned M&Ps, which they claim to shoot better. Most of those guys are pretty good shooters as far as cops go, but many are not what we’d consider to be “good” from a PF performance standpoint. So I take that with a grain of sand. I’m still using two personally owned Glocks depending on what I’m doing at the moment.

My job switch’s from covert to overt regularly, so I’m constantly swapping between a full-size with an X300 in a gun belt, and a a 19 with a TLR7 concealed.. The idea of being mandated to only ever carry a full-size gun wouldn’t be ideal for me, but I’m a big enough person and could make that work for the stuff I do. Contrast that with a female I work around who can barely conceal a 43X, and it’s clear that one-gun solutions are not an option.

What I don’t understand is that we often suggest females be issued Glock 19s instead of 17s even though they work in a patrol setting. While I like the 19 I carry concealed, I don’t see how “hand size” should play a factor in 19 vs 17. The circumference is the same, the full-size shoots softer to me, and carries more ammo. But I’m not on the range staff, so whatever.

We have additional 17s for giving to officers post shootings. We used to have a slew of other guns too, like 1911s to match what the officer carried, but I don’t think that’s as prevalent anymore.

[WobblyPossum]

The agency I retired from issued the M&P 2.0 full size to the masses and the 12 shot 2.0 subcompact as an optional issued gun to investigative units, most of which stayed with the full size 2.0.

A question I have for those agencies that have multiple choices for issued pistols and/or various personal owned, department approved weapons: when your officer is involved in a shooting and their weapon is taken into custody, what are they given as a loaner pistol?

We kept a handful of spare M&P 2.0’s at our Homicide unit. The officer was given a loaner pistol after their interview was done so they were not walking out the door of a police facility unarmed.

Do you keep a couple of each type of gun available to your officers to be used as loaners for officers involved in a police intervention shooting?

If an agent who uses a POW handgun gets into a shooting, I’ll replace their gun with an agency owned P320. They have to qualify with it within the next couple of weeks. We don’t keep copies of the POW guns in inventory. If the agent wants another Glock or P365 to replace the one they lost to evidence, they have to buy another one themselves or wait until their gun is released. In the meantime they can carry the issued gun. If they don’t already have holsters for it, I’ll issue them holsters too.

[AMC]

I know of one verified case of an officer running dry and someone passing him aa spare magazine. Jeff Chudwin recounted it in an article which I can't find. An officer investigating a suspicious vehicle was shot and wounded, but remained in the fight, eventually exhausting all thirty-seven rounds from his SIG 229. Someone threw him a spare magazine which was useless. If I recall correctly, someone got the officer a shotgun, but the incident was resolved by that point.

Jeff's point was that this was a black swan event and we shouldn't base policy around it. I have also heard that a motor officer behind cover during the North Hollywood bank robbery used multiple Beretta 92 magazine passed to him Two black swan events are not necessarily a flock.

There is more argument for standardized weapons in specialized teams. Even the 1911-centric Texas Rangers are mandated to carry the SIG 320 when deployed with inter-division DPS Special Operations Group assignments.

I do believe the availability of different-sized grips with most duty pistols significantly reduces the need and desire for different weapons. I coached an officer to get her through the county academy and later to ensure she qualified with her .40 SIG 226. She now shoots high nineties or better with her county-issue Glock 17.

We had a horrific gunbattle with a well armed and armored nut named Victor Lee Boutwell in the early 90's. 30 minutes and 1100 rounds fired. One rifle armed baddie against the whole on duty department, basically. One officer killed, and another wounded, along with a paramedic and a homeless dude.

The lesson the higher ups learned from the incident was that everyone must carry the same gun, so that we can exchange magazines the next time we engage in a 1000 round pistol gunbattle with a rifle armed suspect. So we ended the POW list and went to an issued gun again....the Beretta 96G. Prior to that incident, our only rifle armed officers were members of the countersniper oriented Specialist Team, who did NOT carry their gear with them on patrol. It took 30 minutes for a SWAT team member with a confiscated Uzi to get in position to zap the bad guy. And it took a decade more and another officer being killed by a rifle armed suspect before they considered a patrol rifle program. All of the wrong lessons learned repeatedly. And the 'one-gun' bullshit is the biggest wrong lesson of all. There is no valid officer or public safety reason for such a policy. It's just for those admin Pogue who get off on everyone looking the same at inspections.

[DDTSGM]

Scott Reitz said in a podcast that part LAPD's gear issue was how you looked in line at inspection.

Back in the day we had an agency whose chief wouldn't allow speedloaders because the cases didn't look 'trim' on the belt. However, almost every officer from that agency carried a 'bulky' speedloader in a pocket someplace.

[HCM]

If an agent who uses a POW handgun gets into a shooting, I’ll replace their gun with an agency owned P320. They have to qualify with it within the next couple of weeks. We don’t keep copies of the POW guns in inventory. If the agent wants another Glock or P365 to replace the one they lost to evidence, they have to buy another one themselves or wait until their gun is released. In the meantime they can carry the issued gun. If they don’t already have holsters for it, I’ll issue them holsters too.

In general - this^^^.

One of my guys got into a shooting with a POW G17 gen4 MOS (no optic). We gave him a 229 initially but “those people” sent us a legacy USCS G17 Gen 3 for him. It took 2 1/2 years to get that POW and the other two issued 229s back.

At my prior office I sent a guy home with my issued USP Compact after a shooting because 1) We had no spares to issue and the closest spares were 5 hours away; and 2) I was the only one with a POW (G26) on the books.

[DaBigBR]

What I don’t understand is that we often suggest females be issued Glock 19s instead of 17s even though they work in a patrol setting. While I like the 19 I carry concealed, I don’t see how “hand size” should play a factor in 19 vs 17. The circumference is the same, the full-size shoots softer to me, and carries more ammo. But I’m not on the range staff, so whatever.

I think that thinking was much more applicable in the pre-Gen 4 days. The Gen 3 full-sizes had quite the hump in the heel of the grip and I know that I shot the 19 and 23 considerably better than the 17/22/34/35. With the slimmer base grip of the Gen 4 and 5 guns the opposite is true.

Perception is probably part of it, too.

[Hambo]

The lesson the higher ups learned from the incident was that everyone must carry the same gun, so that we can exchange magazines the next time we engage in a 1000 round pistol gunbattle with a rifle armed suspect.

Way before my time, my department took on an armed, barricaded suspect. Officers fired so many rounds of .38 at the upper story of the house that witnesses said you could see rays of sunlight through it. They shot so much that they had to have officers make a couple of ammo runs to the armory. Did they form a SWAT unit? No. Rifles for patrol? Crazy talk. Slugs for the 870s? This ain't deer hunting. The only lesson learned was that each car needs a couple boxes of .38 LRN.


There is no valid officer or public safety reason for such a policy. It's just for those admin Pogue who get off on everyone looking the same at inspections.

The one saving grace of my department was that officers had to buy everything on uniform allowance, hence there was no standard duty belt setup or pistol. We switched from long sleeves and ties to short sleeves/no tie on May 15, but at least we could carry our gear how we wanted.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I’m one who believes in one department one gun. Reduced administrative overhead and if SHTF, no questions regarding magazine compatibility.

Thank you for the comments, interesting the off-duty and BUGs can be different.


I know of one verified case of an officer running dry and someone passing him aa spare magazine. Jeff Chudwin recounted it in an article which I can't find. An officer investigating a suspicious vehicle was shot and wounded, but remained in the fight, eventually exhausting all thirty-seven rounds from his SIG 229.

Jeff's point was that this was a black swan event and we shouldn't base policy around it. I have also heard that a motor officer behind cover during the North Hollywood bank robbery used multiple Beretta 92 magazine passed to him Two black swan events are not necessarily a flock.

There is more argument for standardized weapons in specialized teams.
With that addition, I now know of four (4) across the county, this LAPD NHW/BoA, the SFPD one AMC mentions, and a mid-sized PD near me where a defective was carrying a G27 with no spare mag on a gang sweep that went to guns.


We had a horrific gunbattle with a well armed and armored nut named Victor Lee Boutwell in the early 90's. 30 minutes and 1100 rounds fired. One rifle armed baddie against the whole on duty department, basically. One officer killed, and another wounded, along with a paramedic and a homeless dude.
Yup, wrong lessons

[John Hearne]

First off, one gun for everyone is stupid. We don't buy one size of boot and issue them to everyone, why would we do the same with pistols? Some pistols simply do not fit some people.

My agency still authorizes classic DA/SA Sigs - P220, P225, P227, P228, P229 but the standard pistol is a P320 Carry in 9mm. Officers have the option to buy any P320 in 9, 40, or 45 without slide lightening cuts. I've had one guy opt to buy a .40 and another opt to buy a .45. I know that PF hates them but the P320 solves a lot of problems with handgun fit. I've setup P320's with the agency owned FCU in a variety of configurations - from full-length slide with large grip module to X-Compact with the compact slide. The X-Compact is a great solution for officers with really small hands.

You can deal with a lot of this buy thinking ahead. I buy duty holsters(with WML) for the full-length slide, knowing that it will take the Compact slide just fine and the officer has the option of going to a full-size gun if they choose later.

The biggest hassle is with training weapons. When it came time to buy airsoft, I ended up buying a bunch of M-18s and a few M-17s. The M-18 works for those using the Carry model and the M-17 works for the full length slide guys.

I think it's been mentioned but there are large department with lots of gunfights under their belts that don't require the same gun. Don't know if it's changed but LVMPD had a very wide range of approved duty pistols.

[AMC]

Just reread my comment after being quoted, and I realized part of it came off wrong. Don't want gtmtnbiker98 to misconstrue that as an attack on him. I get you're trying to do right by your guys. It's easy to get sucked into the "One Gun Club". The chicks are hot and they play good music....but they're lying to you and you'll wake up missing a kidney some day. I also very much get it's a 'pick your battles' game with admin. Trying to reason with some people can be like trying to deprogram someone in a cult.

When I first proposed a modest return to a personally owned weapon program as a way to deal with some of our issues, it was as if I had proposed a program of publicly sacrificing and barbecuing babies in Civic Center Plaza. Actually, in SF such a program would probably garner more support.....

[TheNewbie]

I understand the idea of having department issued guns in case one goes into evidence. Still, an issued gun that is available, with a POW policy, is generally superior to a one size fits all approach.


Besides, how else will TDA and DAO/LEM/DAK live on?

[Chuck Whitlock]

We issue the S&W M&P9 M2.0 but have a pretty big authorized list for personally owned pistols. Our Special Enforcement Bureau (SWAT) has gone back and forth since the early 80s between staying with general department guidelines and running their own stuff, but they still have all the options available to the rest of the department.

We have everything from 1911s, 2011s, Berettas, Sig DA/SA, M&Ps, Glocks, a bunch of HK models, and several others. There is a prerequisite course of fire to pass prior to taking the 1911/2011 class and a different one prior to taking the pistol optic class.

Once authorized (initial training completed) to carry a particular pistol the qualification is the same for everyone.



I’m a proponent of giving people options.



I understand the idea of having department issued guns in case one goes into evidence. Still, an issued gun that is available, with a POW policy, is generally superior to a one size fits all approach.


Besides, how else will TDA and DAO/LEM/DAK live on?

My agency doesn't issue sidearms, except for the PT tactical team (G17, I think), so everyone provides their own weapon and duty gear. Hard to bitch about it when you picked it, and no admin overhead. Department gives you a box of 9mm / .40 S&W / .45 ACP at qual time.

There is talk of going to an issued gun, presumably some flavor of 9mm Glock.

[AMC]

I understand the idea of having department issued guns in case one goes into evidence. Still, an issued gun that is available, with a POW policy, is generally superior to a one size fits all approach.


Besides, how else will TDA and DAO/LEM/DAK live on?

The whole OIS/Issuing a new gun thing is definitely easier with a department issued gun, but there are ways to handle it. The simplest fix that I had proposed was simply buying 10-12 of the alternative platforms exclusively as OIS guns. Not a big deal when we were only proposing 2 additional guns as POWs at the time.

A problem at my old place with the 'department gun' thing was that we literally NEVER got an OIS gun back from evidence. There are guns at property that the department hasn't issued in decades.....as in some 20+ years. That can get expensive to replace when it's patrol rifles, or worse when it's SWAT SBRs with all the bells and whistles. I wrote memo after memo requesting that most of those guns be released, since we actually needed them. Pointed out that the possibility of any kind of legal action had long passed, that many of the officers had left the department, and some of the suspects were dead. Nope. Only explanation was "Why do you care? Didn't the officers get a new gun from you? No....we should hold onto them just in case."