.22LR or 5.7 for self defense for the recoil averse?

[awp_101]

So here's my dilemma, my wife is recoil averse and extremely noise sensitive (vestibular and inner ear issues, even a slamming door can trigger an episode). She also wants a "rifle" for the rare times I'm gone overnight. Ideally I'd put together a suppressed 9mm carbine but can is not a near term option unfortunately. Use case would strictly be to bunker down in the safe room until the cavalry arrived.

I've heard multiple people mention setting up 10/22s for kids/spouse as a SD carbine and I can whip one up with the I already have on hand. The only thing I can think of I'd have to order is an oversize charging handle. A factory 25 round mag of Minimags from across the room is nothing to sneeze at. Not ideal, but not my idea of a good day.

BUT...

The new Ruger 5.7 carbine and the recent 5.7 talk have me wondering if a 20 round mag of 5.7 would be a better choice. IIRC the typical range fodder is around .22WMR level which should be a step up from MiniMags.

I have no illusions of her doing mag changes (she hits cognitive overload/panic level very quickly) but the Ruger could be a touch easier with the mag in the grip (bring both hands together rather than fumbling blindly for the 10/22 magwell).

Thoughts?

[PNWTO]

If hearing issues are present, 5.7 is fairly barky. Obviously, in the “worst time” any firearm indoors will suck but could affect her enjoyment of practice. Good earpro is given but we’ve all been next folks shooting ARs in the next booth over.

There’s also the cost to practice and maintain a ready store of ammo, .22 wins by a mile.

Ed Calderon and Rhett Neumayer (sp?) seem to like the KelTec CP33; but with KelTec you could always buy three of them and see three different behaviors. Before the WA AWB I was looking at a CP33 for a similar use.

[feudist]

Are you familiar with Rhett Neumayer's Cheek Pistol concept?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0t6E5keb2Q&t=11s&ab_channel=DemonstratedConceptsLLC

He has several videos about using one in 360 degrees from inside a doorway or from the inside of a vehicle, and Luckygunner and Forgotten Weapons have done videos about the set up.
The firing position lends itself to retention at close quarters and the "Ready Gun" maintains SA and allows instant engagement with zero movement at room combat ranges.

I haven't fired one, but I have mocked one up on a BB SMG pistol and while very unorthodox, it comes right on target very quickly. It's faster than my AR15 in dryfire on a timer.
It's also very easy to mount and get an instant sight picture from your weak side or one hand only from either side.
There's a small but enthusiastic after market with some parts for tuning the fit and performance.

I'm thiiiis close to dropping the striker on one.
33 rounds of low blast/concussion, recoilless rapid fire Velocitors probably won't induce a sneezing fit by a bad guy.

[HeavyDuty]

Is a Form 1 an option on a Ruger 5.7 LC Charger?

That said, I’d personally be looking at a 10/22 for your use case. My wife isn’t noise adverse so we are trying a Beretta CX4 for this purpose, she much preferred the crossbolt safety.

[HeavyDuty]

Are you familiar with Rhett Neumayer's Cheek Pistol concept?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0t6E5keb2Q&t=11s&ab_channel=DemonstratedConceptsLLC

He has several videos about using one in 360 degrees from inside a doorway or from the inside of a vehicle, and Luckygunner and Forgotten Weapons have done videos about the set up.
The firing position lends itself to retention at close quarters and the "Ready Gun" maintains SA and allows instant engagement with zero movement at room combat ranges.

I haven't fired one, but I have mocked one up on a BB SMG pistol and while very unorthodox, it comes right on target very quickly. It's faster than my AR15 in dryfire on a timer.
It's also very easy to mount and get an instant sight picture from your weak side or one hand only from either side.
There's a small but enthusiastic after market with some parts for tuning the fit and performance.

I'm thiiiis close to dropping the striker on one.
33 rounds of low blast/concussion, recoilless rapid fire Velocitors probably won't induce a sneezing fit by a bad guy.

I know that I am very happy with the shootability of my cheekweld pistols, I was shooting a couple of my AR pistols that way with cheekrests before braces were a thing. I actually built a new one with bare short RE for the purpose recently modeled on the one that Clusterfrack built. Neumayer's take on the concept is very interesting.

[Half Moon]

Probably only limited help (comaping apples and pears), but:

My wife is very recoil averse due to hand surgery related issues.

Out of an FN Five-Seven pistol she found 5.7 recoil tolerable. With the heavier weight of a carbine I suspect the recoil issue would be even less. On the other hand, muzzle blast and flash were up there. Not at .357 or .30 carbine pistol levels but more than the average handgun. With a carbine length barrel this shouldn't be as high but don't know if it will fall off enough.

[fatdog]

I had to move to 5.7 for recoil considerations, only in long guns. I dink a lot now with .22WMR and .22LR as well now.

There are two advantages for 5.7 over the rimfires that I see. First is reliability, I don't care who made the rimfire ammo, at some point you are going to get a misfire when you hit a primer void, even with the expensive stuff.

Second is ballistics. Many will argue .22WMR is the equal of 5.7 but it is certainly not. There is a smaller difference in pistols and SBR's between the two rounds, but when you plug in a 16" barrel and the best ammo 5.7 pulls away to become more serious.

From a recoil and muzzle blast perspective in rifles, I don't see enough difference between 5.7 and .22WMR to really count.

I bought one of the Ruger rifles last month and now have about 500+ rounds down range and I can tell you it is good to go. Easy to shoot, no more recoil than my PS90, muzzle blast is similar to other PCC rifles, with the right ammo accuracy is excellent. It prefers (accuracy) the .40gr Vmax loads from Palmetto/AAC or FN to the other rounds I have tried. I did not clean it for the first 500 rounds and have yet to have a malfunction. It would get a strong vote from me as a 5.7 launcher if you go that route.

Last year I built a 16" CMMG 5.7 upper for one of my existing AR lowers and it too runs like a scalded dog. Probably a 2 moa rifle out to 100 yards with the Vmax rounds. 2250-2300 fps for the 40gr Vmax. Their current 32 round mags work perfectly. Recoil is like rimfire stuff.

But if noise is THE issue, a .22LR with subsonics might be the ticket. Those Aguila 60gr bullets have a nasty smack, but I have only shot squirrels with one.

There is now a 5.7 62gr subsonic round out, but I have zero data on that so far.

[Jamie]

As usual I am learning a lot here at P-F.
I've never owned a 5.7 and for me, being primarily on a fixed income, 5.7 is something I'd would need to save and budget for.

Reading this thread reminded me of an article I read several years ago. "Growing up guns" Mark Luell, "The Special Application .22 for home defense". https://www.growingupguns.com/2014/09/13/the-special-application-22lr-for-home-defense-part-1-weigh-the-evidence-and-make-a-decision/
My bride (she passed about 18 months ago) had a lot of health issues, vestibular dysfunction and noise intolerance among them.

I set up my 10/22 with a Primary Arms RDS and vetted 25 round factory Ruger mags. We ran several hundred rounds of CCI Mini-Mags and around 100 rounds of Stingers through it. For us, knowing what we knew at the time, it was a reliable (as .22 RF can be) option. And one she could tolerate shooting.

It's just me here now and I'm, like most of you, able to keep a full sized service handgun (G17 with RMR & TLR 7) and shotgun (Vang Comped 590) at bedside.

I still have and shoot the 10/22 but have it loaded with Federal Punch currently. But the warning of RF malfunction isn't lost on me.

[JCN]

So here's my dilemma, my wife is recoil averse and extremely noise sensitive (vestibular and inner ear issues, even a slamming door can trigger an episode). She also wants a "rifle" for the rare times I'm gone overnight. Ideally I'd put together a suppressed 9mm carbine but can is not a near term option unfortunately. Use case would strictly be to bunker down in the safe room until the cavalry arrived.

I've heard multiple people mention setting up 10/22s for kids/spouse as a SD carbine and I can whip one up with the I already have on hand. The only thing I can think of I'd have to order is an oversize charging handle. A factory 25 round mag of Minimags from across the room is nothing to sneeze at. Not ideal, but not my idea of a good day.

BUT...

The new Ruger 5.7 carbine and the recent 5.7 talk have me wondering if a 20 round mag of 5.7 would be a better choice. IIRC the typical range fodder is around .22WMR level which should be a step up from MiniMags.

I have no illusions of her doing mag changes (she hits cognitive overload/panic level very quickly) but the Ruger could be a touch easier with the mag in the grip (bring both hands together rather than fumbling blindly for the 10/22 magwell).

Thoughts?

I have recently been goofing around with a CMMG 22LR bolt conversion for an AR and it’s fantastic.

Might be an alternative to a 10/22 and get her more acclimated to AR controls… then you have an option later to do a suppressed 300 BO pistol.

The CMMG works with SW MP22 mags with a cheapo plastic shim put on the mag front. I can walk you through if you go that route.

[awp_101]

Thanks everyone for the input so far!

PNWTO and Half Moon, muzzle blast is something I've thought about which is why .22 is slightly in the lead right now. I need to see if either of the indoor ranges around me have a 5.7 carbine of any flavor to rent. Its been 15+ years since I had a PS90 and I flat don't remember what it was like.

feudist and HeavyDuty, the cheek pistol concept is interesting but with her blood thinners I'm not sure it could be done without causing bruises. She will refuse the suggestion on that possibility alone.

Jamie, my condolences and I have a feeling you've got an idea of what I'm up against regarding her anxiety over noise.

JCN, I've got a CMMG conversion as well but she doesn't like the way ARs handle or feel.

fatdog, I'd forgotten about the Aguila 60 grain. IIRC it really needs a non-standard twist rate to get the best accuracy but for across the room, a standard carbine barrel should be sufficient.

[BobM]

I have a couple of the compact 10/22s that should work for this application. Ammo cost and noise, and familiarity with the 10/22 has me leaning that way

[farscott]

My wife has vestibular issues to the point where she had to go to physical therapy to learn to balance enough to walk in a straight line. She literally would drift to the left if she had to walk down a hallway. As such, I have dealt with the issue the OP is facing. Loud noises can induce vertigo and/or nausea.

My answer was a Tactical Solutions X-Ring 10/22 with Gemtech (CCI) 42-grain Suppressor ammo paired with the 25-round Ruger BX-25 magzines. The rifle barrel places the muzzle farther from the shooter, and the heavier, quieter ammo penetrates better than the normal 40-grain CCI SV (which is a close second). The light rifle allows the use of the longer, heavier magazine for a person of limited strength. .22 LR is not ideal, but 25 rounds of .22 before a reload is better than no firearm.

[358156hp]

A linear comp like a Barking Spider or Noveske Pig Comp might help out your situation too. Linear comps project muzzle blast forward and away from the shooter. I have an AR with a Barking Spider on it but haven't finished the build yet so I can't speak for the noise level. It may be possible to get your wife into something like 5.7 if a suitable comp is used. Does anybody have direct experience with such a setup?

[feudist]

As usual I am learning a lot here at P-F.
I've never owned a 5.7 and for me, being primarily on a fixed income, 5.7 is something I'd would need to save and budget for.

Reading this thread reminded me of an article I read several years ago. "Growing up guns" Mark Luell, "The Special Application .22 for home defense". https://www.growingupguns.com/2014/09/13/the-special-application-22lr-for-home-defense-part-1-weigh-the-evidence-and-make-a-decision/
My bride (she passed about 18 months ago) had a lot of health issues, vestibular dysfunction and noise intolerance among them.

I set up my 10/22 with a Primary Arms RDS and vetted 25 round factory Ruger mags. We ran several hundred rounds of CCI Mini-Mags and around 100 rounds of Stingers through it. For us, knowing what we knew at the time, it was a reliable (as .22 RF can be) option. And one she could tolerate shooting.

It's just me here now and I'm, like most of you, able to keep a full sized service handgun (G17 with RMR & TLR 7) and shotgun (Vang Comped 590) at bedside.

I still have and shoot the 10/22 but have it loaded with Federal Punch currently. But the warning of RF malfunction isn't lost on me.

Claude Werner is a pretty big advocate for the .22LR in civilian self defense, particularly for those grip compromised by sex, age or infirmity. He cites a lot of NRA "Armed Citizen" articles where a completely untrained person, often an elderly woman, smoke checks some goblin with a mag full of .22s. They then runnoft and die in the yard, which Claude declares an advantage since they don't leak their "Loathsome blood-borne pathogens on the carpet."
He also likes the tube fed Marlin rifles and has posted training drills with his.

[willie]

Safe room? If secure and having a door unlikely to be kicked in, weapon choice may not matter. If breached, the occupant is faced with risk of being disarmed. Retaining a long gun might be more difficult than retaining a handgun. I see no advantage to choosing a 20-25 rd magazine. If these mags are more likely to be less reliable, then they pose a disadvantage.

[Hambo]

I don't think much of 5.7, so I'd vote for MiniMags or heavy Aguila. I've seen guys hit by a few .22s still acting tough, but it's hard to imagine they would have been the same after catching 25 of them.

[CCT125US]

awp_101

5.7 is extremely loud, expensive and can be hard to find, compared to .22. Given the criteria, I would rule that out. .22 can also be loud based on barrel length, but I would much rather touch off a .22 than a 5.7 inside. Electronic muffs are an excellent addition to the home defense gun, however time may not permit their use.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I have a pair of electronic muffs on the bed post. My wife periodically comments on being a touch 'out there'. When folks come to the house, they have to be put away.

I have a 10/22 with a RDS but that's not a primary. I still can shoot most anything. She isn't that interested but is an OC fan.

[awp_101]

I feel a lightweight/ultra-lightweight 10/22 build thread coming soon™ in the Rifles and Carbines subforum...;)

[the Schwartz]

What a great thread.

Along the lines of addressing the needs of those who are especially sensitive to strong stimuli or have significant physiological limitations, yet wish to maintain the ability to use a firearm for self/home defense, I had occasion to help my uncle who is suffering the early stages of RA find an option that worked for him.

While a rifle (like the 10/22) was a thought, the issue of maneuverability in the closer confines inside of his place (and firearm weight) led us to the Ruger MK IV 22/45 Lite for both its light weight (26 ounces loaded) and a bolt that is easily cycled for loading and clearing the pistol when necessary. As for the issue of ignition reliability with rimfire ammunition, CCI is still (probably) the standard against which all rimfire ammo should be compared, so I recommended to him the CCI 40-grain CPRN in either the standard (0032) or high-velocity (0030) loadings.

As might be expected, the Ruger MK IV series was completely reliable with either selection. After making sure that he was comfortable with the idea that it would probably be necessary to empty an entire magazine full of those into the COM of an intruder (for an estimated total wound mass of 55 grams) to bring an end to a determined threat, my uncle ended up choosing the standard velocity option as he found it to be most pleasant to shoot. We also purchased a couple of black plastic magazine loaders that slides over the magazine that has very wide flanges that enable him to load extra magazines as needed.

[HeavyDuty]

I have a pair of electronic muffs on the bed post. My wife periodically comments on being a touch 'out there'. When folks come to the house, they have to be put away.


Hide them behind fuzzy handcuffs and a ball gag. They’ll never even see the muffs.

[awp_101]

Hide them behind fuzzy handcuffs and a ball gag. They’ll never even see the muffs.

105767

[willie]

Hide them behind fuzzy handcuffs and a ball gag. They’ll never even see the muffs.

For nosy guests I would hang leg irons on the bed post. In the bathroom medicine cabinet I would place fake boxes labeled heroin, cocaine, and opium.

[willie]

I don't think much of 5.7, so I'd vote for MiniMags or heavy Aguila. I've seen guys hit by a few .22s still acting tough, but it's hard to imagine they would have been the same after catching 25 of them.

That reminds me. Has anyone suggested the S&W M&P-15 22? Its retractable stock permits adjustment. I'm not current on this rifle and can't comment about its reliability.

[feudist]

That reminds me. Has anyone suggested the S&W M&P-15 22? Its retractable stock permits adjustment. I'm not current on this rifle and can't comment about its reliability.

I bought one of the early ones(quad rail) and it has run like a sewing machine across thousands of rounds.

That's a good suggestion.They're very light and have the AR-15's nearly infinite tunability of LOP, grip angle/circumference, optic height, fore end diameter, trigger, safety etc.

The mags are really well made and affordable. Straight line recoil and buffering make muzzle jump insignificant.

Stick a binary trigger in there and lay hate.

[awp_101]

I've got a .22 AR. She doesn't like the way ARs handle or feel.

[ldunnmobile]

I’ve had nothing but problems with my S&W M&P-15 22. Can’t make it through a mag with anything outside of CCI mini mags.