Why has QC become so hit and miss?

[JDM]

It seems that over the last 12-18 months or so, the quality control practices in the gun industry have fallen flat, become secondplace to marketing the newest "big" thing and so on. Some examples:

-Generation 4 9mm Glocks.
-M&P front sights
-SIG's untouchable reputation for quality is now "hit and miss"

The industry as a whole seems to be sliding towards mediocre quality products. Why? Is it the growth that the firearms industry is experiencing, particularly the self defense pistol industry, to much to handle at once, and it keeps quality products from being made quickly enough to meet demand? Are serious end users so few and far between that questionable quality is fine for most of the consumer base? Have we as the customer for some reason made it ok to send a gun back to a manufacturer 1,2,3 or more times?

What gives? Is there a solution?

How can the same make and model of gun go from impeccably reliable, and perfectly crafted; to having parts fall off- in just six years of production. (M&P)

The benchmark of reliability is now an exercise in parts fiddling a la 1911. (Glock)

The only good ones are German made? Really? (SIG)

This is killing me.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I agree, too many push to be the first to market. However, HK hasn't slid in the QC department, yet.:cool:

[TCinVA]

It seems that over the last 12-18 months or so, the quality control practices in the gun industry have fallen flat,


It's been going on for a lot longer than that. Some people refer to it as the "Glock effect"...the result of Glock having turned the entire firearms market upside down with a cheap, durable, cheap, easy to use, cheap pistol designed to be as simple to make as possible to lower per-unit cost to the bare minimum.



Why?


There are a lot of things responsible.

- people - Making a quality product requires quality people. Getting quality people to work for you and keeping them around is a challenge. This is true in the design, manufacturing, and support of firearms.

- personalities - some executives/managers have some weird notions of how to run a business and what customers will put up with.

- profit - making things properly is expensive and time consuming, which can often bite into the bottom line...especially if you have to pay the quality people mentioned earlier.

- market forces - this is probably the biggie. For the majority of consumers in the firearms market, price is the bottom line. This applies to all sorts of products, including firearms. The drive in the last decade or so has been for lower price points, which means that manufacturers have been pushed to search out every efficiency they can find and to try and eliminate as much expense as possible. Thus the rise of polymer as a major component of handgun construction, more AR manufacturers than you can shake a stick at, etc. Companies are faced with a tough market were a product that is $50.00 more expensive on the dealer's shelf will result in double digit percentages of sales lost to the competition.

It's a very competitive market and the majority of individual purchasers are not what we would define as "sophisticated". Witness the sales of the Taurus Judge. I've seen gun stores sell out of them and people pay as much as $150.00 over the advertised price just to get their hands on one. Meanwhile a Glock 17 or M&P sits on the shelf even at a lower price.

Agency purchases are generally more sophisticated, but are often constrained by resource limitations as well.



Are serious end users so few and far between that questionable quality is fine for most of the consumer base?


There is without question a certain amount of playing the stats. If I'm running Fooberman Handguns and we produce 10,000 9mm pistols in a particular run and we've identified that 10% of the guns will probably have function problems, I now have a choice. Do I take the time and expense of finding the 1,000 problematic guns and then destroy them? That could take a long time and cost a lot of money. I could simply put them out there at random, but if those 1,000 guns end up at a police department then I could get sued or lose a contract.

...or if I know which ones are more likely to be problematic, I can steer those into the consumer market because most consumers are unsophisticated and don't really shoot all that much anyway and so are unlikely to make me deal with the problem like an agency would. That saves me a bundle of money and helps keep the company profitable, which is what the owners of the company want.




What gives? Is there a solution?


Yes...for the market as a whole to stop rewarding bad (for the consumer) decisions by gun companies. This is not likely, however, as we live in a world where S&W copies the Judge. Sooner or later companies that are struggling because people don't want to buy their products will tighten up their operations to regain marketshare.



How can the same make and model of gun go from impeccably reliable, and perfectly crafted; to having parts fall off- in just six years of production. (M&P)


It was never "perfect" in the first place. I'm an M&P fan. I own six of them. That being said, they've had teething problems all along the way from systemic design issues to problems with some individual specimens or defects with some batches of pistols. S&W has tried, generally, to fix problems as they've been made aware of them with good customer support and engineering changes. Sometimes an engineering change to fix one problem causes another you didn't see coming.

[SLG]

Unfortunately, it's not the last 12-18 months. Sig since 2006 or so, though many of their guns were imperfect from the start. Anyone remember the 220's? M&P's from the day they came out had problems, then got much better, now the .40's and .45's seem to be good, but maybe not the 9's. Glock 9's have had plenty of problems in the past (NYPD, anyone), but never like this. Glock 40's have always been bad, and, ATF aside, don't seem to be much better yet.

As far as HK, well, Gabe Suarez once reported that a USP had been put into a ruck in the box in one piece, and when the hiker opened his ruck up, the pistol was in two pieces, broken through the frame and slide:rolleyes:

Back on track now, I think one of the issues is that as a group, shooters in the U.S. are putting more rounds through their guns then ever before, and are expecting them to run forever. It used to be said that once you had a good gun, you didn't need another one, because it wasn't going to wear out. Only true if you shoot modest amounts of ammo.

Revolver QC has gone down, because the demand is pretty limited these days, and they cost a lot to do right.

Todd has often pointed out to me that gun manufacturers are almost constantly changing parts/vendors/specs on their guns, and to worry about it is pointless. The old rule that you should wait 5 years before buying a new gun on the market is true to a certain extent, but 5 years after it came out, who knows what it's made out of.

One bright spot is that Freedom Arms still makes some of the nicest handguns ever.:cool:

Any gun you really like, you should buy at least a second one.

[LittleLebowski]

One bright spot is that Freedom Arms still makes some of the nicest handguns ever.:cool:


Of course. Made in the greatest state in the Union.

I have one of their discontinued belt buckle derringers.

[ToddG]

The quality of guns has dropped because the expectation from the market has dropped. More people are buying guns that will be shot little (or not at all). The odds than any particular handgun will see 1,000 rounds is so slight as to be meaningless to manufacturers.

Glock drives the market and Glocks are inexpensive. If you want to be successful you either figure out a way to spend less to build your gun (as I saw first hand at Beretta and SIG), or you redefine "successful" to mean "a whole lot less guns than Glock sells" and accept that fewer people are willing to pay for top quality materials and QC (a la HK).

We're also seeing more new designs come out each year than ever before, by a big margin. Contrary to what gun companies want you to believe, the amount of internal testing they do before releasing new designs into the wild is often minimal. Anyone who thinks gun companies figure out how the guns work when they're dry fired, when they're wet, when they're cold, etc. is kidding himself. Most of that stuff is just assumed based on the engineering. I've been part of tests where we (the gun company) submitted pistols to an agency and had nothing but faith to rely on in terms of some of the test protocols they were going to use.

At the same time, people at the far end of the shooting bell curve are shooting far more rounds per year than they did 20-30 years ago. I remember calling S&W in the 90's because I wanted a Shorty Forty but was concerned about the durability of the aluminum frame. This was long before I worked at Beretta and SIG, obviously. The person at Smith told me the pistol would be good for about 10,000 rounds given proper maintenance, etc. To him, that was a lifetime. To me, that was one or two years at best given how much I shot back then.

Finally, we're far more connected these days to problems. Ten years ago, someone whose SIG had a bad finish called SIG and got it fixed. Now, he goes to SIG Forum and complains. Ten other people look at their SIGs and notice finish problems, too, and they all complain. Now, eleven people have turned what may be a bad production run or some minor production issue into "SIGs' finish sucks!" So while 98% of the customer base may be perfectly happy, everyone with access to Google thinks there's a life-threatening problem.

[JDM]

Eye opening information gentlemen. Thank you.

[JV_]

This thread is kind of a downer....

[Tamara]

Any gun you really like, you should buy at least a second one.

This sentence is truth.

A friend of mine always put it "Find a gun you like, and buy five copies: One on your hip, one in the safe, one at the shop, one at the manufacturer, and one stored off-site at a friend's house, just in case."

[Kyle Reese]

Ever since breaking a Glock 19 at a TLG class in 2010, I'm always bringing 2 guns to the range. 2 M&Ps, Glocks, etc. When my Apex trigger spring broke about a month ago while shooting a 3-2-1 Drill in my M&P, I simply carried on with my spare.

Excellent post with lots of great information.

[Tamara]

I showed up at AFHF with the 1911 on my belt and a brace of spares. When I popped the pistol case open on the line to swap my CCW gun for the one I'd be shooting in the class (new pistol I was reviewing for an article) Todd noticed the three guns and made a crack about my lack of confidence in the 1911. I replied "Guns only break when they're lonely." ;)

[VolGrad]

Finally, we're far more connected these days to problems. Ten years ago, someone whose SIG had a bad finish called SIG and got it fixed. Now, he goes to SIG Forum and complains. Ten other people look at their SIGs and notice finish problems, too, and they all complain. Now, eleven people have turned what may be a bad production run or some minor production issue into "SIGs' finish sucks!" So while 98% of the customer base may be perfectly happy, everyone with access to Google thinks there's a life-threatening problem.

VERY TRUE. Isn't this kind of what we are doing here? :p

Lots of win in this thread though.

I too feel the gun companies know most of the folks buying their guns ... LE agencies included ... will not put very many rounds through them. I suspect there are lots of guns out there with major issues that will NEVER be discovered because the owner isn't a shooter. Putting 50 rds down range in slow fire while standing still, in a controlled environment, etc. doesn't make it reliable. We know this but most gun owners don't. Most feel they are doing well if they shoot once per year for an hour at the local indoor range. They think that's all the practice they need. That's fine because they probably don't carry it anyway and it's prob stored in its case at home unloaded and not within reach if they needed it. Might as well use a baseball bat as your bedside weapon.

I too used to show up to a class just expecting my gun to work. I now carry at least one back-up gun AND my parts/tool box. If it's minor I can fix it on break. If it's major I just switch over to the backup and figure it out later.

I am a bit depressed now at all the good, reliable guns of years past I've sold/traded only to get "newer" and "better" ones. This whole thread reinforces my move of late toward fewer guns that are proven reliable than having a safe full of guns that never get shot enough to really know.

I'm still working through the thought process though to wrap my brain around the idea my new HK P30 having a couple of stoppages during a "break in" period is OK while a few from my Gen4 G19 is bad mojo. Help?

[ToddG]

I'm still working through the thought process though to wrap my brain around the idea my new HK P30 having a couple of stoppages during a "break in" period is OK while a few from my Gen4 G19 is bad mojo. Help?

The P30 shouldn't need the break-in, but some do. Collective experience tells us that after the break in period, the gun runs fine.

The G19/4 shouldn't need a break-in either. Some don't. Some do. Collective experience tells us that even after the break in period, some of the guns continue to have problems. Therein lies the difference. Unlike the P30, the problems some folks experience early on with their gen4 G's don't seem to go away after a few hundred rounds.

[Tamara]

Personally, I'm not sure of how new an issue this is at all.

My perspective is probably colored by years of working in places with "We Fix Busted Guns" signs hanging out front, but I can't remember any time from '93 to the present that was some magic nirvana of perfect guns.

Remember in the early '90s when the joke was that SIG stood for "Store In Grease"? I had one customer leave town for three months and return to find that the slide on the P220 in his lakefront home had turned into an ingot of orange fuzz while he was gone.

And let's be honest, Glocks have always used fiddly little crap springs to secure their slide stops and return the trigger.

Sure, the constant drive to keep costs down hasn't done the industry any favors (who at Smith decided that plastic was a good material for a disconnector in the 3rd Gen autos?) but I think Todd was right, in that a lot of this can be attributed to more people putting serious miles on more guns combined with the internets facilitating communication.

[Chuck Haggard]

I suspect that Glock has gone to trying to make their small parts via a cheaper route, either getting them from out of house, or using MIM, etc., in an effort to try and keep the gun prices down.

I imagine that if this keeps up there will be a market for high end Glock parts as there is for 1911 parts, for the folks who actually shoot the shit out of their guns.

I don't trust MIM for parts such as extractors and strikers.

[Chris Rhines]

It seems counter-intuitive, but this perceived downward trend in firearm QC is pushing me more towards the 1911-pattern guns.

The appeal of the Glock, et al, was always that I could pull my brand new Glock out of the Tupperware, swab out the barrel, stuff it in my holster, and go shoot. It's nice to be able to focus on improving my shooting rather than getting my gun to work.

But, if I can't expect to run my Glock without modifying it replacing some parts, that appeal is gone. I may as well get a quality 1911a1 instead, and enjoy the additional accuracy, better trigger, better ergonomics, and infinite supply of high quality aftermarket parts (to replace anything the factory might have left out...)

-C

[SLG]

It seems counter-intuitive, but this perceived downward trend in firearm QC is pushing me more towards the 1911-pattern guns.

The appeal of the Glock, et al, was always that I could pull my brand new Glock out of the Tupperware, swab out the barrel, stuff it in my holster, and go shoot. It's nice to be able to focus on improving my shooting rather than getting my gun to work.

But, if I can't expect to run my Glock without modifying it replacing some parts, that appeal is gone. I may as well get a quality 1911a1 instead, and enjoy the additional accuracy, better trigger, better ergonomics, and infinite supply of high quality aftermarket parts (to replace anything the factory might have left out...)
-C





There is some truth to your idea, but for most applications, I still think a modern factory gun is the way to go. I'd lean towards P30's, HK45's and C's, M&P .45's or .40's, used S&W M13's:D

[rsa-otc]

used S&W M13's:D On board with you there!!!

[Tamara]

Speaking of these new-fangled QC problems, would that be a Bangor Punta-era M13? ;)

[jetfire]

Word. I brought two 1911s to Todd's Get SOM/Speed Kills class this weekend, and it was a good thing I did because the Sig 1911 (my main gun) didn't fit the holster Galco had given me for T&E to run the FAST with, so I ended up needing the Colt in my bag.

[SLG]

Speaking of these new-fangled QC problems, would that be a Bangor Punta-era M13? ;)

Touche. Sort of. The nice thing about S&W, is that they will make a gun right, no questions asked, no matter how you came upon it, and at no cost to you. Every gun company out there has, had, or will have problems. How they handle it is very important as well.

[Tamara]

Touche. Sort of. The nice thing about S&W, is that they will make a gun right, no questions asked, no matter how you came upon it, and at no cost to you. Every gun company out there has, had, or will have problems. How they handle it is very important as well.
Well, yes and no.

For instance, it broke my heart to see one of our customers back in '05 or '06 come in with an early (and probably un-fired) flat-latch "pre-38" Bodyguard Airweight for a trigger job. The gunsmiths performed the trigger work, went out to test-fire, and in one cylinder of ammo, the frame cracked around the barrel shank. Luckily, the old guy was tickled pink that Smith was willing to replace his vintage J-frame with a brand-new MIM & IL M642.

And my own experience with an early M581? (S/N AXX###) You didn't need a range rod to see that the centerline of the bore was noticeably higher than the centerline of the top chamber. I put up with it for a while, but there just wasn't another fixed-sight carbon-steel L-frame currently in the catalog that Smith could offer as a replacement, so I wound up trading it off. :(

And what's this guy (http://wheretheresawilliam.blogspot.com/2011/01/range-report-s-625-10-sn-scc0487-kaboom.html) to do? Are they gonna tool up and make him another 625-10 that's not defective?

I love my Smith wheelguns. I have owned, literally, somewhere between 150 and 200 of them over the last couple decades. When you cut me, I bleed blue and white. But let's not kid ourselves; at the end of the day, they're just another gun company.

[WDW]

It's all about the people. I see more S&W Sigmas, Taurus Judges, and Hi-Points being bought than anything else. At the end of the day, it's all about the $$$$ and if the majority market share wants cheap, that's what's gonna be built.

[DannyZRC]

http://wheretheresawilliam.blogspot.com/2011/03/smith-wesson-has-been-heard-from.html

they're sending him a 325NG in .45ACP, basically the same gun (though not a collectors piece etc.)

[MikeO]

I'm not sure if QC has slipped as much, if any, or it's just that bad news travels so much faster and farther than it ever did before. Ditto CS.

HK? I've got a pic of that USP that broke the frame when it was dropped while cased. Also remember a USP compact that had the firing pin punch through the breech face. I remember when Santa Barbara SD and Tucson PD had repeated problems w their USPs. I remember when USP compacts were breaking firing pins multiple times in the same gun after numerous trips back n forth to HK. TSA had some QC problems w HKs too IIRC.

Meanwhile, my sister had a S&W .380 Sigma for years. Worked fine until it broke when I was shooting it. Sent it in to S&W, who replaced it w a new 908 9mm pistol no charge. Her Beretta Neos was recalled. It went to Beretta and back in about 10 days...

See what I mean?

Don't know if QC/CS is worse, but I do know the errornet lets all the blind men hear about the parts of the elephant all the other blind men are feeling up...