US Diplomat Security and Secret Service Shooting Standards?

[Polecat]

Does anyone have a link to these? Stumbled on them listening to podcast and was curious?

Thanks,
Dave

[AMC]

Does anyone have a link to these? Stumbled on them listening to podcast and was curious?

Thanks,
Dave

Paging TGS.

[TGS]

Polecat, I'm curious what you heard that made you want to look it up.

DSS's course of fire for the G19M is shot from concealment except the last WHO string. It's designed to be shot from your belt as an agent shows up for duty; 3 mags of 15+1 in chamber, 46 total rounds. Must be shot every 4 months, with a low-light course being shot yearly. Target is the Izzy (DS-Q): critical zone is 5 points, on silhouette but outside critical zone is 4 point, off silhouette is 0 points. 184 out of 230 points required to qualify. When qualifying on the fanny pack, add 1s to each par time.

Someone who can pass LAVs 10x10x10 "Test", or shoot an intermediate FAST, should be able to come close to cleaning this on the regular. People who can demonstrate mastery of the basics will only ever drop points at the 25 yard stage, which used to be only 2 rounds. A couple years ago, DSS changed it to 8 rounds at 25 yards in order to make it more difficult.

25 yards: 8 rounds in 20s, 4 standing then 4 kneeling
15 yards: 6 rounds in 10s
7 yards: 7 rounds in 11s (2-reload-5)
3 yards: 5 rounds in 4s
3 yards: 2 rounds in 2s, shot three times
3 yards: 5 rounds in 4s, SHO
3 yards: 4 rounds in 4s, WHO

The course is different for the Glock 26, just adjusted for 3 mags of 10 instead of 15 round mags. Agents also have the option to qualify with an ankle holster for the Glock 26, which has a mix of strings shooting from kneeling and seated in chairs.

There's a version of the DS-Q Izzy which has a 6 or 8" center of mass circle in addition to the regular crit zone. If I was king for a day, that'd be the standard target, with 5 points for the COM circle, 4 points for the critical zone, and 3 points for the silhouette...with -5 points for missing the silhouette instead of 0. In addition, the 3 yard stage of 5 rounds in 4 s would be shot at 7 yards.

It may be entirely coincidental...or not...that my thoughts align with what the FTU instructors proposed for the new qualification. DSS compromised and approved the above, instead.

[AMC]

Polecat, I'm curious what you heard that made you want to look it up.

DSS's course of fire for the G19M is shot from concealment except the last WHO string. It's designed to be shot from your belt as an agent shows up for duty; 3 mags of 15+1 in chamber, 46 total rounds. Must be shot every 4 months, with a low-light course being shot yearly. Target is the Izzy (DS-Q): critical zone is 5 points, on silhouette but outside critical zone is 4 point, off silhouette is 0 points. 184 out of 230 points required to qualify. When qualifying on the fanny pack, add 1s to each par time.

Someone who can pass LAVs 10x10x10 "Test", or shoot an intermediate FAST, should be able to come close to cleaning this on the regular. People who can demonstrate mastery of the basics will only ever drop points at the 25 yard stage, which used to be only 2 rounds. A couple years ago, DSS changed it to 8 rounds at 25 yards in order to make it more difficult.

25 yards: 8 rounds in 20s, 4 standing then 4 kneeling
15 yards: 6 rounds in 10s
7 yards: 7 rounds in 11s (2-reload-5)
3 yards: 5 rounds in 4s
3 yards: 2 rounds in 2s, shot three times
3 yards: 5 rounds in 4s, SHO
3 yards: 4 rounds in 4s, WHO

The course is different for the Glock 26, just adjusted for 3 mags of 10 instead of 15 round mags. Agents also have the option to qualify with an ankle holster for the Glock 26, which has a mix of strings shooting from kneeling and seated in chairs.

There's a version of the DS-Q Izzy which has a 6 or 8" center of mass circle in addition to the regular crit zone. If I was king for a day, that'd be the standard target, with 5 points for the COM circle, 4 points for the critical zone, and 3 points for the silhouette...with -5 points for missing the silhouette instead of 0. In addition, the 3 yard stage of 5 rounds in 4 s would be shot at 7 yards.

It may be entirely coincidental...or not...that my thoughts align with what the FTU instructors proposed for the new qualification. DSS compromised and approved the above, instead.

Always loved having to run new standards past carpet walking admin types afraid they couldn't qualify. Makes for a really progressive training culture.

[TGS]

Always loved having to run new standards past carpet walking admin types afraid they couldn't qualify. Makes for a really progressive training culture.

To be fair, DSS has some management that are actually trying to move things forward. There's also the nightmarish issues of feasibility on qualifying agents who can't regularly shoot...i.e. half the agency which is assigned overseas. The Regional Security Officers at more than a few countries will actually have to fly the Marine Security Guard detachment out of country to qualify as they're not allowed to shoot in country. Since the DS agents are running the ranges to keep the MSGs up to snuff, there's limited ability for them to practice themselves outside of a particular few countries. There are not enough agents allocated by Congress that DS can staff overseas posts with more agents allowing the agents themselves to rotate in and out every 4 months for shooting like the Marines, so the downtime between tours -usually 2-3 years in length) will usually include a 2 week hard skills refresher.

DS's policy reflects this, so agents assigned overseas are only required to perform a fam fire once per year, as feasible.

[HCM]

To be fair, DSS has some management that are actually trying to move things forward. There's also the nightmarish issues of feasibility on qualifying agents who can't regularly shoot...i.e. half the agency which is assigned overseas. The Regional Security Officers at more than a few countries will actually have to fly the Marine Security Guard detachment out of country to qualify as they're not allowed to shoot in country. Since the DS agents are running the ranges to keep the MSGs up to snuff, there's limited ability for them to practice themselves outside of a particular few countries. There are not enough agents allocated by Congress that DS can staff overseas posts with more agents allowing the agents themselves to rotate in and out every 4 months for shooting like the Marines, so the downtime between tours -usually 2-3 years in length) will usually include a 2 week hard skills refresher.

DS's policy reflects this, so agents assigned overseas are only required to perform a fam fire once per year, as feasible.

Do the security contractors for the WPS (Worldwide Protective Services) contract shoot the same standards /COF as DSS and MSG ?

[TGS]

Do the security contractors for the WPS (Worldwide Protective Services) contract shoot the same standards /COF as DSS and MSG ?

Generally yes, with the caveat that when WPS hiring was very competitive at the height of GWOT, you'd probably not make it out of a given contract company's schoolhouse unless you were shooting significantly above passing. Lost River would be a better source than I.

[HCM]

Generally yes, with the caveat that when WPS hiring was very competitive at the height of GWOT, you'd probably not make it out of a given contract company's schoolhouse unless you were shooting significantly above passing. Lost River would be a better source than I.

I’d heard that from a buddy who taught at one of those school houses but he’s been out of the game for a decade.

[Lost River]

Do the security contractors for the WPS (Worldwide Protective Services) contract shoot the same standards /COF as DSS and MSG ?


Generally yes, with the caveat that when WPS hiring was very competitive at the height of GWOT, you'd probably not make it out of a given contract company's schoolhouse unless you were shooting significantly above passing. Lost River would be a better source than I.

Things have changed significantly from when I was working.

At the time, the organization I worked for was extremely small, and the standards were much higher than what State required.

To answer your question, yes, the DSS-WPS contractors shot the exact same course.

When I went to firearms instructor school, we did what was essentially performance on demand.

You shot your qualification first, with no warmup. If you failed, you were gone. No do-overs (with the exception for mechanical issues).

So for example you shot the Glock 19 or M24 sniper rifle qual first thing in the morning. If you failed, you were dropped from the course. If you passed, you, along with everyone else who passed continued to train for the rest of the day.

The thought process was that there were no do-overs or alibis in combat, and they wanted top performers as instructors.

Now days it is about massive contracts and $, huge numbers of slots to fill, personnel wise, etc, so it really does not resemble what it once was.

Most the guys I know went to work for other government agencies.

Lengthy answer, but yes, everyone shoots the DSS qual.

[Polecat]

Thanks guys, I had seen FBI and FAM qual but just became aware of the other two.

[1Rangemaster]

TGS, your mention of the G26 piqued my interest as I occasionally carry one. I understand the adjustment for magazines, but is there any other adjustments for the G26? For example, moving the distance shots closer to “adjust” for the shorter sight radius.
Just curious-thanks in advance for reply.

[TGS]

TGS, your mention of the G26 piqued my interest as I occasionally carry one. I understand the adjustment for magazines, but is there any other adjustments for the G26? For example, moving the distance shots closer to “adjust” for the shorter sight radius.
Just curious-thanks in advance for reply.

Nope. When being judged against such an imprecise and generous course of fire as typical for most LE quals, generally people can score as well with the Glock 26 as they can with the 19. There's a higher failure rate with the Glock 26, but that's generally from fumbling the shorter grip and then getting flustered and blowing the string of fire, especially on the reload string. While encouraged to carry Glock 19 mags as reloads if carrying the Glock 26 on duty, agents must shoot the qualification with Glock 26 mags for this reason, to prevent themselves from gaming the qual and giving themselves a false sense of competency.

[AMC]

To be fair, DSS has some management that are actually trying to move things forward. There's also the nightmarish issues of feasibility on qualifying agents who can't regularly shoot...i.e. half the agency which is assigned overseas. The Regional Security Officers at more than a few countries will actually have to fly the Marine Security Guard detachment out of country to qualify as they're not allowed to shoot in country. Since the DS agents are running the ranges to keep the MSGs up to snuff, there's limited ability for them to practice themselves outside of a particular few countries. There are not enough agents allocated by Congress that DS can staff overseas posts with more agents allowing the agents themselves to rotate in and out every 4 months for shooting like the Marines, so the downtime between tours -usually 2-3 years in length) will usually include a 2 week hard skills refresher.

DS's policy reflects this, so agents assigned overseas are only required to perform a fam fire once per year, as feasible.

Yeah, admittedly you guys face a type and level of logistical challenges that probably few other LE agencies can imagine.

I used to hear crazy stories from my DSS buddies back in the 90s, about overseas 'training' experiences. One guy did a tour in Turkey, and told a story about practicing at a Turkish military/police range. When they went to change targets, suddenly the targets next to them were being shot while they were down range. They expressed their dismay to the Turkish cops doing the shooting, who were completely surprised at their concern. After all....they weren't shooting at the DSS guys, right? What's the problem?

Another friend who was assigned to the embassy in Bogota, Colombia said that the last time he went to a local range there, a local Colombian cop literally begged him for his holster and ammunition....since he basically had none

[1Rangemaster]

Nope. When being judged against such an imprecise and generous course of fire as typical for most LE quals, generally people can score as well with the Glock 26 as they can with the 19. There's a higher failure rate with the Glock 26, but that's generally from fumbling the shorter grip and then getting flustered and blowing the string of fire, especially on the reload string. While encouraged to carry Glock 19 mags as reloads if carrying the Glock 26 on duty, agents must shoot the qualification with Glock 26 mags for this reason, to prevent themselves from gaming the qual and giving themselves a false sense of competency.

Thank you-understood. That eval/qual, compared to some local and state examples, would be seen as difficult in some city agencies.
Just as a side note, I sometimes use the + extension on the 26 mags which gives my little finger a rest, but I understand the logic somewhat of the issued mags.
Appreciate you responding

[jnc36rcpd]

Bravo zulu on a separate qualification course for the Glock 26 and requiring the 26 magazines be used. For some years, my former agency had a mix of SIG 226's, 239's, 230's (not my choice), and a couple of 228's. We used the same Q course, letting the officers with smaller guns stuff mags when needed. In retrospect, a separate course of fire would have tested skills with the little guns better.