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Odin Bravo One
10-21-2012, 12:26 PM
Why is the EoTech so popular in the SOF community? Every picture or B-roll video footage I see of high speed door kickers, I notice about 90% of them are using EoTechs, and very rarely do I see T1's. What gives?



Good question.

Short answer............it is what is issued.

You LE guys know that the only thing cheaper than a cop, is two cops. The same could be applied to the SOF community. Unless dude is a "gun guy", "gun nut", "gun dork", etc., he is more likely to take what he is given without thought to what else might be out there, or out there that is better. Given the cost of a T-1, plus mount, you are looking at a pretty substantial investment.

Reason two..... 1 MOA Dot + 65 MOA ring. The reticle is intuitive, and easy to use. It is also easy to teach CQB holds, as there is no guess work, just put the top hash mark on your desired point of impact. And the 1 MOA Dot makes longer range shooting more precise than say a 4 MOA Aimpoint.

Reason three...... Battery life. They don't care. Batteries are free where they get them, so who cares if they have to replace them every night? They replace every battery, in every device, every night as an SOP, so it is no big deal to replace the battery in their optic.

Reason four....... It is what is issued. If it goes TU, they just grab another one. Many have second and thirds. The smart ones zero them all, and throw the spares in the go bag.

Reason five....... SOF has a messed up method of acquisition. SOCOM has become the very red tape organization it was designed to avoid. Once an item is in the inventory, it literally takes an act of Congress to change it. It also comes to down to cost. If they can buy 2 EOTech's for the price of one T-1, or 4 MRDS of another brand for the price of a single T-1, they are going for quantity. That frees up monies for other, higher ticket items like the RULR, which costs $16k a pop. Night vision devices at $9k-$50k a pop.

Some organizations have bought T-1's, and they are out there. Many individuals have bought T-1's. But not in the numbers of the EO's. Great marketing for EO, and I would guess they have sold 3 times, or more, the amount of optics to civilian/LE shooters, simply because they got the nod from SOCOM. Usually, once educated trainers get a chance to show a side by side comparison to the shooters, the opinion and reasons to hang onto the EOTech go away, but the optics themselves don't.

DocGKR
10-21-2012, 12:42 PM
Well said!

YVK
10-21-2012, 04:49 PM
Reason two..... 1 MOA Dot + 65 MOA ring. The reticle is intuitive, and easy to use. It is also easy to teach CQB holds, as there is no guess work, just put the top hash mark on your desired point of impact. And the 1 MOA Dot makes longer range shooting more precise than say a 4 MOA Aimpoint.



I guess this is a typo, the bottom hash mark, no?

I have 1:3 ratio of Eo:AP, and I thoroughly hate the fact how much more I like Eo's reticle. I wish Eo and AP had sex and produced an offspring of M4s with an Eotech reticle.

Josh Runkle
10-21-2012, 04:57 PM
No mention of the reflex vs a red dot differences?

JHC
10-21-2012, 05:47 PM
With all the drinking from a fire hose of training info I didn't get around to asking Frank Proctor why he was using an EOTech but another Army SF shooting friend (with multiple tours etc) was totally in love with his. He said his was beat to hell and had some electronic glitch so it ate batteries - he changed them daily as Sean noted is SOP - but he also loved its performance. Fast and the 1 minute dot as Sean mentioned.

zacbol
10-21-2012, 07:34 PM
As I recall, John Holschen also spoke well of the EoTechs he used as a contractor in Iraq during one of the classes I had with him. I believe he said their SOP was to change the batteries once a month. Kyle Lamb also seems to like them. Not saying these are definitive opinions but both of those individuals are *definitely* gun guys.

Odin Bravo One
10-21-2012, 07:59 PM
I guess this is a typo, the bottom hash mark, no?


Sorry, should have been more information there.............top hash mark and your bullet will strike your desired point of impact.

Why do various other people like EOTech? I don't know. I haven't asked them. My comments were directly related to the question posed at the top of the thread. Personally, I wouldn't take an EOTech for free. Unless I was selling it to someone I didn't like.

Dagga Boy
10-21-2012, 08:17 PM
You left out that they come in "tan". That is not a joke. I wish it was, but it isn't.

C45P312
10-21-2012, 09:10 PM
You left out that they come in "tan". That is not a joke. I wish it was, but it isn't.

Oh god, yes, this happened to me before.

"Man that's light and a way smaller profile than my Eotech. Does it come in FDE?"

YVK
10-21-2012, 09:19 PM
Sorry, should have been more information there.............top hash mark and your bullet will strike your desired point of impact.

Sean, explain this to me, I am not familiar with it. The way I learned it, you zero the dot at 100-300, whatever your zero is, and for CQB you need to aim the dot 2 inches higher to adjust for offset. With Eo lifting the dot up makes bottom hash mark a convenient aiming reference. What am I getting wrong?

F-Trooper05
10-21-2012, 09:24 PM
Thanks, Sean!

nwhpfan
10-21-2012, 09:31 PM
I remember 10+ years ago the argument against red dots were the batteries would die and all you needed was "black sights and white lights" anyway. Then Eotech's and the like became increasiningly popular. Personally I have a well used Comp M4...and I've looked at the T1.. and I like it alot; even more than my CompM4 -but not more that I think this optic will make me a better shooter. So maybe the reason the T-1 has not replaced Eotech (or Comp M4 or C3) is because these Eotech were already owned and the user didn't see the need to buy something new and would rather spend their money on ammo and training.

Josh Runkle
10-21-2012, 10:30 PM
No mention of the reflex vs a red dot differences?

Again...no one seems to think of red dots and reflexes as two different sighting systems? You move your head from the red dot, the dot seems to stay constant, but the dot over the objective changes. You move your head with a reflex and the dot seems to change but it stays on target over the objective. No one seems to think this has anything to do with usage/purchasing decisions?

(I currently run red dots, but I'm thinking of switching to eotechs)

Odin Bravo One
10-21-2012, 10:56 PM
To keep this thread on topic, I shall re-post the original question..............

"Why is the EoTech so popular in the SOF community? Every picture or B-roll video footage I see of high speed door kickers, I notice about 90% of them are using EoTechs, and very rarely do I see T1's. What gives?"

The above "quoted" text is the question.

Why other people choose them.............I don't know. I don't care. Everyone has their reasons. Arguing the decision of one or the other is like Coke/Pepsi. "Better" is a relative term, based on what is important to the shooter.

To answer the question about whether or not an RDS vs a Holographic Sight is part of the decision making process...............no. It's not.

Josh Runkle
10-21-2012, 11:41 PM
To answer the question about whether or not an RDS vs a Holographic Sight is part of the decision making process...............no. It's not.

Cool. Thanks for the inside scoop.

rob_s
10-22-2012, 04:36 AM
In Pat McNamara's class last year he was asked about his preference for the Eotech. He replied with many of the reasons Sean listed above. Then he was asked about the battery life to which he replied that you just have to change them between every mission, wash out the battery box, and tug on the battery terminals to stretch them back out. The someone asked about Aimpoint, and he replied that yeah, you don't have to do any of that.

I think that, like a lot of professions, guys use when they retire the same things they used or were issued when they were working. Doubly so of they feel like they got good performance out of the item when working.

rudy99
10-22-2012, 02:52 PM
To keep this thread on topic, I shall re-post the original question..............

"Why is the EoTech so popular in the SOF community? Every picture or B-roll video footage I see of high speed door kickers, I notice about 90% of them are using EoTechs, and very rarely do I see T1's. What gives?"

Sean, thanks for adding some color around this issue. I know I've often had this question. I imagine this question has come up even more in light of "No Easy Day" considering the author has no problem plugging EOTech (and generally discusses gear at length (http://www.washingtonian.com/blogs/capitalcomment/books/what-to-wear-to-kill-osama-bin-laden.php)).

EDIT: Full disclosure, I currently use an Aimpoint C3 on my rifle.
EDIT2: I think the issue for me is that conventional forum wisdom (as I have seen/interpreted) says if money is no object, Aimpoint is the way to go. Then a person reads something like No Easy Day about a Team 6 guy who can have whatever he wants (i.e. money is no object) and he elects to go with EOTech. We use the phrase "I wouldn't risk my life with that" to discuss choices on carbines, optics, lights, etc and here is a guy doing exactly that. In other words, he isn't in the "I might use this" category, he is in the "I will and have used this" category. These two data points are hard to reconcile for the civilian who in not monetarily or emotionally invested in either one of these technologies.

Chemsoldier
10-22-2012, 03:25 PM
Perhaps some is what you talk about, its in the system and when compared to regular Aimpoints (not the T1) and the ACOG....for the DA focused groups it seems like a good choice.

A lot of the SOF guys I know are not quite the grea queers that you would suppose. Its like they find good kit, good enough for what they need and otherwise are more about the training than the gear.

So you seem to be of the opinion that the T1 is a better system compared to the EOTech. You also made a statement earlier that sounded more anti-EOTech than simple "There is bettter stuff out there." Why do you believe that? Not questioning, just curious.

Odin Bravo One
10-22-2012, 10:33 PM
So you seem to be of the opinion that the T1 is a better system compared to the EOTech. You also made a statement earlier that sounded more anti-EOTech than simple "There is bettter stuff out there." Why do you believe that? Not questioning, just curious.

I am of the opinion that the T-1 is a better system for ME than the EOTech. I have to buy my optics, same as any other person who owns and shoots guns as a hobby. When it is MY money being spent, I choose the equipment that best suits me. If you want a list of reasons, here are mine:

1) EOTech has a feature that shuts the optic off automatically after 4 or 8 hours, depending on how you initialized the power. This is done to save battery life.

2) A T-1 was a 5000 hour batter life, constantly on. I don't need my optic making a decision on when to turn off for me.

3) I watched an entire batch of EOTech's fail miserably when they first came out in the SOPMOD II kit. I was also involved in the fix. Their handling of it was awful, and one of the issues is still not entirely fixed. The customer service I received, while in the position as a purchasing agent for several hundred units was horrendous. I can't imagine how hosed I would have been as Joe Shit the Rag Man with a single inoperable unit.

4) I instruct active duty SOF, and also act as an AI for a private training company. I have yet to have a course, Mil, LE, Civilian, or Mixed where at least one, most cases more, EOTech's that flat out die during the course. As in dead, no option than to hope it is under warranty. I have had 2 courses where not a single EOTech has survived, and all were replaced.

5) Since I have to buy the replacement optics for my guns, on my dollar, I prefer to stick to an optic that is less prone to failure, and if/when they do fail, it gets taken care of ASAP.

6) I have seen T-1's die. Even had one that didn't work right out of the box. I am not so infatuated with AimPoint to believe they are perfect. Everyone makes crap sometimes. It took one phone call, and instant RMA#, and a new optic was shipped out before I even had the broken one in the mail. See #3 for EOTech CS experience. I had a Comp M2 die several years ago, several years beyond the warranty. No one even questioned it. I simply received a replacement optic.

7) I don't see enough of a difference between a 2 MOA T-1 and a 1 MOA EOTech for precision shooting to make a practical difference. I also don't see so much of a speed increase with the 65 MOA ring for CQB shooting that it becomes mandatory for me. I like the EOTech reticle, I really do, but I do fine with a single dot too.

8) A T-1 in LT660 mount takes up very little space, and keeps my gun streamlined. My work EO's always make me feel like I am hauling more optic than I need, and it takes up a few more slots. On a 10.5" gun, every little slot counts to keep my switches, lights, lasers, grips, etc. all where I can use them.

9) If/When the T-1 shits the bed on me when I must use it, I can use the T-1 body as a rear peep sight, and get good hits out to about 65-75 yards, providing me at least a little time to put effective rounds on target until I can get some cover and deploy my BUIS.

10) Battery covers on the EOTech's are notoriously bad. I routinely see them taped down with riggers tape, to keep them from coming off.

11) EOTech factory mounts are generally pretty weak. A single cross bolt with flat tip screwdriver torqued to whatever the user thinks should do it. Granted, if using a T-1 on an AR type rifle, you have to cough up extra money for the proper mount............you almost have to with an EO as well.

12) EOTech adjustment mechanisms are not sealed. This allows sand, dirt, crud, whatever to get into the spring/detent pin area. I had the unfortunate pleasure of helping a young SOF operator sight in his EOTech after he could not get on paper. Volley after volley, group after group we chased the group, chased the zero, made adjustments that just didn't make sense. Finally, we got him on, POA/POI @ 50 yards. Since his gun was filthy and covered in sand, I suggested we stop and hose it off, paying special attention to sight, and getting in there with an AP Brush. I heard the distinct TWANG of the detent/springs resetting once some sand was removed from the adjustment mechanism. Back to 50 yards. Back to 25 yards. Back to mechanical zero, and start from scratch. A frustrating waste of a day to say the least.

13) The T-1 malfunction I see most often is a bad switch on the rheostat. This is most often upon inspection out of the box, or within the first couple of hundred rounds. I have not seen, or experienced a wandering zero, battery life problems, battery compartment problems, waterproofing issues, mount issues (in all fairness, I use the LT mounts, so AimPoints might suck), adjustment knob issues, or an overly bulky device for what it does. If an AimPoint is going to go bad, it has been my experience that it goes either right out of the box, or had extreme trauma beyond reasonable expectations to continue working......like a 600 lb armored door slamming on it.

All of that said..............those are simply MY experiences, and MY reasons.

I really wish there were some quality flip up caps for the T-1. I have seen the GG&G mount with the built in covers, but I don't care for GG&G mounts. I wish AimPoint would include a quality mount with the T-1 optic, and not offer simply the generic Pic rail mount without any height. Give the consumer the choice of mount with the purchase price. I'd like to see them incorporate a circle in the optic with the dot as the center. I'd like to see them offer it in FDE. (Are you listening Nyeti????) ...............yeah, just kidding. I have spray paint for that.

I have said it before, and I will say it again now. I am not the gear, guns, or tactics police. I don't think a person is retarded for choosing a certain weapon system or optic or kit and I don't attack someone personally because of their choice of equipment. I also don't feel like someone is claiming I am a bad person or that my mother has a sexual affinity for goats because I choose an AimPoint. But at the same time, I don't look at what someone else is carrying, and jump on it and make it my own just because "so and so" or "XYZ" unit is using it. I firmly believe that it is incumbent upon any shooter to identify their own needs, and their own requirements, and find the piece of gear that best suits those requirements. This goes way beyond a red dot sight. It applies to all pieces of offensive, defensive, or survival equipment.

There is no perfect gun, optic, tactic, whatever. There is always compromise to some degree. I personally like the EOTech reticle. But that in and of itself is not enough to get me to mount one to my rifle. I wish the T-1 had that reticle, or one similar to it. But that the T-1 is lacking it, doesn't make me dismiss it. Many of my shooting buddies LOVE the EOTech. And despite all of it's issues that they too have experienced, it is what they buy to put on their personal rifles. It is their decision, their money. Sure we talk about it, mostly we talk shit about it. Any missed shot gets blamed immediately on the other persons optic choice. Yeah, we poke fun at each other but at the end of the day, it is the end user's decision. His life, his gun, his gear, his choice.

Just because someone chooses different doesn't mean they are wrong. And it sure as shit doesn't mean I am right. Just different perceptions, experiences, needs, wants, capabilities, etc.

I have found, especially with SOF dudes, that if you asked 10 different dudes which was the best optic to mount to their M4/Mk18/416 for a particular purpose..........you will get at least 7 different answers. Probably more like 10.

Josh Runkle
10-23-2012, 12:15 AM
4) I instruct active duty SOF, and also act as an AI for a private training company...


What private company do you teach with? Are classes open to the public?

Odin Bravo One
10-23-2012, 12:40 AM
What private company do you teach with? Are classes open to the public?

Trident Concepts- Jeff Gonzales.

Some courses are open enrollment, others are resticted LE, MIL, LE/MIL, or closed courses for specific agency's. The schedule on the website can tell you what type of enrollment or restrictions for a particular course. I (obviously) highly recommend the carbine courses. Still, Jeff and I don't always agree 100% on gear or TTP's. I teach his curriculum because it's his show. But not everyone has to agree on everything. Not necessarily wrong, just different.

I only AI for carbine courses, and only as my day job schedule permits. Mostly along the eastern seaboard, or down in TX as it makes my travel easier than trying to chase Jeff all over the country when I have time available. I am currently running eight, 3-4 week courses per year at my day job, so my schedule isn't as open to moonlight as often as I would like.

NickDrak
10-23-2012, 12:15 PM
Even if I carried an Aimpoint which claims a 5,000+ hour battery life on my daily carry work gun I would still change the battery once ever month. Relying on a manufacturers battery life claim does not work for me. I know I could run my work AR for well over 2000rds without any maintenance.... but I won't.

The battery box issues from the 500 series EO's don't exist on the XPS/EXPS models.

Default.mp3
10-23-2012, 12:37 PM
I really wish there were some quality flip up caps for the T-1. I have seen the GG&G mount with the built in covers, but I don't care for GG&G mounts.

Have you seen this: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/719698632/io-cover-one-handed-built-in-lens-caps-for-micro-o?ref=live

Great write-up, Sean M.

Odin Bravo One
10-23-2012, 03:22 PM
Yeah, I have seen it on the internet. I have yet to see one in person.

And I actually change my work T-1 battery once a week. I like being able to have the luxury of swapping it with plenty of juice still in the disk, but I am not going to go anywhere near the 5,000 hours they claim.

And for the battery box issue..........that is good news for that model. Unfortunately, the guys at SOCOM still have a ton of the old style EOTech's. The XPS/EXPS Models are just now starting to arrive in very limited numbers.

JMS
10-24-2012, 10:24 AM
The opposed battery box loads recoil onto the short axis of the battery, with NO buffer to mitigate it. Cylinder-style batteries like AAs and 123s aren't designed to take that very well at all; other devices with the same battery compartment configuration (AN-PVS-24A, for example) recognize this and put a buffer in there to support the center of the battery.

In those instances that the battery in an XPS/EXPS optic gets popped, caustic fluids infiltrate. The level of incidence is not high, but the impact is more expensive than just buying a new battery box like you can with a 5-series.

They're not out of the woods on comparative reliability, yet, they just traded one set of complications for another. The mounts on those, though, are a significant improvement.

JHC
10-24-2012, 01:28 PM
The opposed battery box loads recoil onto the short axis of the battery, with NO buffer to mitigate it. Cylinder-style batteries like AAs and 123s aren't designed to take that very well at all; other devices with the same battery compartment configuration (AN-PVS-24A, for example) recognize this and put a buffer in there to support the center of the battery.

In those instances that the battery in an XPS/EXPS optic gets popped, caustic fluids infiltrate. The level of incidence is not high, but the impact is more expensive than just buying a new battery box like you can with a 5-series.

They're not out of the woods on comparative reliability, yet, they just traded one set of complications for another. The mounts on those, though, are a significant improvement.

Is that a risk with the mild recoil of the 5.56 or does it manifest in the 7.62 etc more dramatically?

JMS
10-24-2012, 02:10 PM
5.56 is still a rifle round; the ones we broke in that way were broke on 5.56 weapons.

No active effort to try them on 7.62 weapons other than belt-feds...which are STILL less violent than an M4 in terms of how they beat up what's attached to them. SCAR-H....shoot, those damned things have effectively broken just about every single optic ever attached to it, to the point that it's like a "given" in a geometry problem....

Level of incidence isn't higher than any of the battery-box issues on the 5-series....but "fixing" it means getting a new sight, vice an $18 part. Big Picture, it's not out of bounds to think of the opposed battery box as little more than a cosmetic shift. It didn't really do anything for the optic, in the grand scheme of things, unless making them more like a +/- $500 Bic lighter counts.

That said, the thing works GREAT on the Heavy Machine Gun Sight System, mounted to a M2 or Mk19.....but that setup has a spring/hydraulic buffering system that isolates optics, so that hardly counts...

Dagga Boy
10-24-2012, 05:12 PM
"And I actually change my work T-1 battery once a week. I like being able to have the luxury of swapping it with plenty of juice still in the disk, but I am not going to go anywhere near the 5,000 hours they claim. "

It's 50,000, not 5,000. That is like 5 years. You could probably go to monthly and still sleep;).

FDE T1's..........singing to the choir that nobody listens to. Krylon or the new IO covers (they work GREAT) and take care of color, armoring and flip covers in one product.

Byron
10-24-2012, 05:51 PM
...the new IO covers (they work GREAT) and take care of color, armoring and flip covers in one product.
Nice to hear that you have a favorable opinion of the IO Covers. I was holding off at first, but when the Kickstarter funding window was about to expire, I jumped in and pledged for some. Look forward to checking them out.

Regarding batteries, I would highly recommend people consider investing in something like the ZTS pulse load battery tester (http://ztsinc.com/). I find mine to be indispensable.

The idea of tossing the (still working) battery in an optic to replace it with one fresh from packaging fits with common sense, but there can be times when you'll open a new battery from packaging and find that it is actually less full than the one you've pulled from the optic. Given, with the 5-year running life of the T1, that becomes much less of an issue (a battery at 80% is functionally the same as one at 90% if you don't actually plan to use either of them to exhaustion). Still, it saves me the cost of just tossing batteries and replacing them without need. You can still give yourself a huge window of error; for example tossing the battery when it gets to 50% and slapping in a new one.

I realize that a battery tester isn't a convenient thing to carry around in an operational environment. I only offer the advice to those who have the comfort of testing batteries in your home so that you don't start wasting money on a weekly/monthly/whatever basis. It is also a device that can increase the safety of your high-draw devices, like tactical lights. One of the higher-risk things to do with a multi-cell light is to mismatch cells of different charge states. Again, the safe practice of just taking a fresh pair from packaging doesn't always pan out. Especially if you buy in bulk, you'll occasionally find cells that get to you already partially depleted. At least with the ZTS tester you can make a pile of all your 80% batteries, separate from your 100% batteries.

While the cells in the experiment section of this article (http://flashlightreviews.com/features/123burst.htm) were noted to be "inexpensive," it's still interesting what wide disparity was seen in the charge states of 64 different unused cells, still in their shrinkwrap. It's also interesting that even if your light doesn't explode or do anything dangerous, mismatched cells really hurt performance a lot; two matched cells of low-capacity will perform better than a combination of one good cell and one depleted cell.

Whoops.... sorry for rambling that far off topic.

JHC
10-24-2012, 06:26 PM
5.56 is still a rifle round; the ones we broke in that way were broke on 5.56 weapons.

No active effort to try them on 7.62 weapons other than belt-feds...which are STILL less violent than an M4 in terms of how they beat up what's attached to them. SCAR-H....shoot, those damned things have effectively broken just about every single optic ever attached to it, to the point that it's like a "given" in a geometry problem....

Level of incidence isn't higher than any of the battery-box issues on the 5-series....but "fixing" it means getting a new sight, vice an $18 part. Big Picture, it's not out of bounds to think of the opposed battery box as little more than a cosmetic shift. It didn't really do anything for the optic, in the grand scheme of things, unless making them more like a +/- $500 Bic lighter counts.

That said, the thing works GREAT on the Heavy Machine Gun Sight System, mounted to a M2 or Mk19.....but that setup has a spring/hydraulic buffering system that isolates optics, so that hardly counts...

Thanks much for the followup. It's a pity. I've had trouble with T1 dots and my eyesight - turning into more of a 12 moa stripe at 100 than a dot but didn't have this with the EOT dot. But then I'm no hard user so I've got neither.

Chuck Haggard
10-25-2012, 03:36 PM
"And I actually change my work T-1 battery once a week. I like being able to have the luxury of swapping it with plenty of juice still in the disk, but I am not going to go anywhere near the 5,000 hours they claim. "

It's 50,000, not 5,000. That is like 5 years. You could probably go to monthly and still sleep;).

FDE T1's..........singing to the choir that nobody listens to. Krylon or the new IO covers (they work GREAT) and take care of color, armoring and flip covers in one product.

As an experiment I left the original battery in mine and let it run. I normally swap batteries once a year.

Mine went just over three years constantly on, set between 6 and 9 the entire time.

ToddG
10-25-2012, 03:54 PM
My AR -- aka, the closet doorstop -- has the Comp M2 that Aimpoint sent me when I originally got the gun a decade ago. It's rated at 10,000 hours. I used to leave it on 24/7 at a setting that was visible indoors against a white wall with my WML lit up, and it was still running fine when I changed it once a year. With the 50,000 hour optics I'd be more concerned about battery failures due to corrosion or defect than running out of juice.

LittleLebowski
10-25-2012, 06:11 PM
My AR -- aka, the closet doorstop -- has the Comp M2 that Aimpoint sent me when I originally got the gun a decade ago. It's rated at 10,000 hours. I used to leave it on 24/7 at a setting that was visible indoors against a white wall with my WML lit up, and it was still running fine when I changed it once a year. With the 50,000 hour optics I'd be more concerned about battery failures due to corrosion or defect than running out of juice.

You should shoot the cobwebs out of the barrel sometime.....

ToddG
10-25-2012, 08:01 PM
You should shoot the cobwebs out of the barrel sometime.....

Next week I'm actually planning to. Not that I'm paranoid about anything bad happening in the DC area if Romney wins the election or anything...

YVK
10-25-2012, 08:27 PM
Since Lil' took it off to a sidespin: the ar is a closet door stop, you're shooting gazillion rounds though handguns, somebody is trying to break into your house, and, just theoretically, you're cleaning your closet at the moment. Are you gonna grab that AR, or draw the pistol? Just to even it out, let's pretend it is a double stack pistol you have on.

Sparks2112
10-25-2012, 08:58 PM
I'm curious for Todd's response to this. I know personally the only reason I don't walk around with an AR slung to low ready is because I'd scare the squares.

Jay Cunningham
10-25-2012, 09:23 PM
Might make for a good separate thread.

KevH
10-26-2012, 01:02 AM
I usually refuse to get in the Aimpoint vs EOTech debate, but I feel I need to throw in my 2 cents.

I've run an EOTech reticle since having one of the original Bushnell Holosights on a PD owned MP5 in 1999. I'm talking the first generation ones which was the only one I could get my hands on at the time. I look back on it now and it was clunky and far from ruggedized, but it worked at the time on its goofy claw mount.

I then ran a EOTech 511 on the MP5 and it was a more ruggedized, but occasionally I experienced battery contact issues. EOTech L3 has a fantastic warranty department. With the older pre-Rev f models they needed it. When I switched from carrying the MP5 to the AR platform the 511 went with me.

In 2007 I was issued an Aimpoint ML3 2moa mounted on my issued AR. I found myself slower with it than the EOTech reticle. I used it for awhile, but when I opted to carry a personally owned rifle I bought an Aimpoint T-1.

The size, weight, battery life and reliability of the T-1 is great. The reticle not so much. I have an astigmatism and the 4moa red dot sucks for me. I found I disliked looking through the small little tube and just overall was not pleased with the sight and continued to be much slower with it than with the EOTech reticle. I also have found the Aimpoint much tougher to use in awkward positions and under stress than the EOTech.

I use a 50 yards BZO for my red dot sights (and iron sights). With that BZO, at close range (15 yards and in) the bottom of the reticle is dead on. I don't have to worry about holdover the same as I do with the Aimpoint. It makes close range accuracy easy. Considering that I use my carbine on entries quite often this is a major plus for me.

I currently have the EOTech XPS3-0 mounted on my Colt 6920. I love it. I've got about 4k rounds through the gun with the sight and so far its held zero with no battery issues. I use the gun on patrol and swap batteries every few months and haven't had any problems. Yes, battery life is not as long as Aimpoints, but I've never found this to be an issue. I carry extra CR123's with me anyway since its what my Surefire lights use. The excellent reticle makes dealing with battery pains worth it.

To summarize, I'm issued an Aimpoint and chose the EOTech (paid for by me) because I like the reticle better and it works better for me. I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels that way.

rob_s
10-26-2012, 04:16 AM
With the 50,000 hour optics I'd be more concerned about battery failures due to corrosion or defect than running out of juice.

I was at SHOT the year the T-1 was announced, and the M4 as well, and the Aimpoint reps actually said as much, that the battery would just simply fail before the Aimpoint drained the juice out of it.

fuse
10-27-2012, 04:44 PM
Next week I'm actually planning to. Not that I'm paranoid about anything bad happening in the DC area if Romney wins the election or anything...

Todd shooting a rifle at the NRA range

Lions and lambs etc

Sparks2112
10-27-2012, 05:48 PM
Why am I picturing Todd with a Tom sellick mustache saying "I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it."

TCinVA
10-27-2012, 10:48 PM
Not that I can add much to Sean's magnificent posts, but I'll say that my distaste for EOTech sights was born when I was on a range running through a team drill with a couple of SWAT guys. One of them was actively firing his weapon and then I heard...over the sound of my own gunfire, mind you...one of them scream an expletive and when I looked over I saw him stabbing at the sight with his gloved fingers.

The unit turned itself off in the middle of a string of fire. I then found out this wasn't the first time, as they'd had their sights spontaneously shut off in the middle of call-outs as well.

To paraphrase:

"...so the guy we've been waiting out for the last 5 hours finally amps up and we have to go in and as I hit him with my light I notice that the reticle from my ***CENSORED*** optic isn't ***CENSORED*** there at the moment when I'm trying to figure out whether or not I need to shoot this guy who is in close proximity to the wife and kids he's been threatening all ***CENSORED*** day."

I'll just take an Aimpoint, thanks.

My carbine isn't really a go-to gun, but I do keep it handy in case. It's nice to have an optic I don't have to think about. If my rifle was a primary weapon I depended on every day, I'd be in even less of a mood for finicky optics.

Cecil Burch
10-27-2012, 11:33 PM
I was at SHOT the year the T-1 was announced, and the M4 as well, and the Aimpoint reps actually said as much, that the battery would just simply fail before the Aimpoint drained the juice out of it.

The battery in my R-1 went out in less than a year. I left it on at about 5 clicks of intensity so not too much. The battery was new from the package and the R-1 was brand new.

I don't think it's that big a deal; it certainly does not make me want to dump the Aimpoint. I have a spare battery on the gun, and make it a point to either dryfire, shoot, or handle the AR at least once a week. That way i can keep pretty good track if the Aimpoint is draining the battery too fast. But it does go to show that everything can fail, even something that sales people swear won't fail.

LHS
10-27-2012, 11:35 PM
When the EOTechs first came out, I thought they were the cat's meow. The big, wide-open window, the awesome reticle, all seemed to be the way to go. Then I saw some in actual use.

Much like TC, my 'moment of clarity' came from watching someone else. Hackathorn had just gotten his new 5.45mm Krink SBR, and mounted a 5-series EOTech (most likely pre-revision F, it was during the AW ban years, probably circa 2000 or so) to it. He was sighting it in at 50 yards. The first group was about 3 inches left, so he adjusted windage a few clicks. Five more shots, same place. A few more clicks. Five more shots, same place. Profanity ensues. More clicks. First shot, a foot right. More profanity ensues, much like little Ralphie's dad, it was a work of art. The EOTech came off and got thrown into a bag. Ken was really irked, because he had just gotten the sight back from the factory after it exhibited this behavior out of the box. Funny, I've never seen him run an EO ever since :)

I've had the battery crap out in my ML3, but I've never had an issue with any of my Aimpoints. To me, the EO reticle is pretty slick, but the quality control just isn't there. I'll take battery life and reliability over a slick reticle any day.

1slow
10-27-2012, 11:46 PM
Sold the 4 EOTechs I had and went to T1s.
Loved the reticule , HATED the sight.

Haraise
10-28-2012, 01:42 AM
I see a lot of the critique here is with older models... Anyone having issues with recent XPS3's?

Desmond82
10-28-2012, 04:09 AM
Not that I can add much to Sean's magnificent posts, but I'll say that my distaste for EOTech sights was born when I was on a range running through a team drill with a couple of SWAT guys. One of them was actively firing his weapon and then I heard...over the sound of my own gunfire, mind you...one of them scream an expletive and when I looked over I saw him stabbing at the sight with his gloved fingers.

The unit turned itself off in the middle of a string of fire. I then found out this wasn't the first time, as they'd had their sights spontaneously shut off in the middle of call-outs as well.

To paraphrase:

"...so the guy we've been waiting out for the last 5 hours finally amps up and we have to go in and as I hit him with my light I notice that the reticle from my ***CENSORED*** optic isn't ***CENSORED*** there at the moment when I'm trying to figure out whether or not I need to shoot this guy who is in close proximity to the wife and kids he's been threatening all ***CENSORED*** day."

I'll just take an Aimpoint, thanks.

My carbine isn't really a go-to gun, but I do keep it handy in case. It's nice to have an optic I don't have to think about. If my rifle was a primary weapon I depended on every day, I'd be in even less of a mood for finicky optics.


------------------------------

I recently purchased a DDM4V1 and soon there after a aimpoint pro due to my experience and the generosity of Mr. TCinVA loaning me his m4 w/ what I believe was a comp ml2. Had a blast with it at last years Veterans Day Class. One thing you said that made a lasting impression was that you ran that aimpoint over with your vehicle and thing didn't even skip a beat!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Odin Bravo One
10-28-2012, 06:42 AM
I see a lot of the critique here is with older models... Anyone having issues with recent XPS3's?

Yeah, except for the loose battery terminals..........all other noted issues apply.

TCinVA
10-28-2012, 08:09 AM
------------------------------

I recently purchased a DDM4V1 and soon there after a aimpoint pro due to my experience and the generosity of Mr. TCinVA loaning me his m4 w/ what I believe was a comp ml2. Had a blast with it at last years Veterans Day Class. One thing you said that made a lasting impression was that you ran that aimpoint over with your vehicle and thing didn't even skip a beat!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Glad to hear you grabbed a carbine!

The vehicle run over was actually from Freddie Blish back when he worked for Aimpoint. They're tough optics.

Desmond82
10-28-2012, 08:25 AM
Glad to hear you grabbed a carbine!

The vehicle run over was actually from Freddie Blish back when he worked for Aimpoint. They're tough optics.

1114

Thanks, I'm having a lot of fun with it. I just sighted in the iron sights and aimpoint pro at 50 yards and will be looking to take a carbine class in spring of next year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kevin B.
10-28-2012, 09:50 AM
I used to use Aimpoints exclusively having experienced many of the issues already mentioned with the EoTech 5-series. Some damage I suffered to my right eye turns the 2 MOA dot of an Aimpoint into an 8+ MOA blob and makes the 4 MOA dot models virtually unusable.

I picked up an XPS and have had good success with it. It has over 10k rounds on it including close to 1k with it mounted on an AK without any issues. It went with me on my last deployment and saw a fair amount of use without issue.

I do have to pay more attention to the batteries. Down range I changed them weekly or every 1k rounds, whichever came first. I still change them every 1k. A bit of a nuisance, but not a major concern.

Were the Aimpoint a viable option for me, I would still probably use one. However, my XPS has proven to be a viable alternative.

EMC
10-28-2012, 10:09 AM
When I was down range in the ancient days of 05' we were issued the 552 model. I used lithium AA's because they were lighter and lasted much longer. Never had a battery box problem and only changed them every few months (sight has auto shut down after 8 hours). At the end of the year the hood was pretty much silver from all the wear and tear.

Tamara
10-28-2012, 10:15 AM
While I do like the reticule, the real reason that the first three dot-sighted carbines I had in the early aughties had EOTechs (well, two EOTechs and a Holosight) were absolutely due to reasons of price and availability.

My housegun now sports an ML2, because I'm too cheap to run out and buy an H-1.

ETA: While it's completely anecdata, the only sight I've seen go toes up in the limited number of long-gun classes I've taken has been an EOTech, and the dude had to finish the class with a borrowed gun...

Jay Cunningham
10-28-2012, 10:18 AM
I won't go so far as to call it a trend, but I do know quite a few people who have gone back to the 30mm Aimpoints after giving the Micros some serious use.

TCinVA
10-28-2012, 10:39 AM
I won't go so far as to call it a trend, but I do know quite a few people who have gone back to the 30mm Aimpoints after giving the Micros some serious use.

Personally I prefer the wider field of view on the bigger aimpoints. I also haven't found a micro yet that gives me a true dot. They always look slightly pregnant to me, whereas my CompC or the M4 I bought from Jay gives a perfect circle.

On a lightweight SBR or a handgun the micro makes all kinds of sense, pregnant dot or not. On a standard 6920 style carbine I don't have to hump at nosebleed altitudes (job requirement for some) I'd rather have the larger optic.

orionz06
10-28-2012, 10:40 AM
I won't go so far as to call it a trend, but I do know quite a few people who have gone back to the 30mm Aimpoints after giving the Micros some serious use.

Cost effective. You can sell a T-1 with Larue mount, because everyone spends more for a T-1 over an H-1 one because we all rock NV, and almost have enough for two Aimpoint PRO's or two used ML's.

DocGKR
10-28-2012, 03:05 PM
Kevin B: Have you tried the RMR on a carbine? Last time Pat McNamara was out here, he was using one on his AR15. When I asked him about it, he stated the dot was much crisper and perfectly round compared to other alternatives and the sight was lightweight and trim. You can see him running one here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM.

YVK
10-28-2012, 03:32 PM
I won't go so far as to call it a trend, but I do know quite a few people who have gone back to the 30mm Aimpoints after giving the Micros some serious use.

Makes me feel, for the lack of better word, validated for never going away from full sized ones. My Micros are used for AK and offset mounting.

JHC
10-28-2012, 04:11 PM
Kevin B: Have you tried the RMR on a carbine? Last time Pat McNamara was out here, he was using one on his AR15. When I asked him about it, he stated the dot was much crisper and perfectly round compared to other alternatives and the sight was lightweight and trim. You can see him running one here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM.

Thanks Doc! After running drills fast training at WOTG using my Troy BUIS I'm not so enamored with the simplicity of irons. But both of the Aimpoint Micros I've used gave me a very elongated "dot" I could not group with at all at 100. EOT's 1 moa dot did not have this effect. I've considered the compact ACOG TA44 1.4, or Leupold Prismatic 1x or one of the MRDS and regards to that last option - its tough to find much experience using one as a primary on a carbine. I've seen that Pat Mac vid before but didn't realize that was an RMR.

LittleLebowski
10-28-2012, 04:21 PM
I won't go so far as to call it a trend, but I do know quite a few people who have gone back to the 30mm Aimpoints after giving the Micros some serious use.

The Pro with 2MOA dot makes so much sense......

Kevin B.
10-28-2012, 06:44 PM
Kevin B: Have you tried the RMR on a carbine? Last time Pat McNamara was out here, he was using one on his AR15. When I asked him about it, he stated the dot was much crisper and perfectly round compared to other alternatives and the sight was lightweight and trim. You can see him running one here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM.

Doc, I have not, though I have considered it. I would like to give one a try before buying one. So far, I have not had the opportunity.

JHC
10-28-2012, 07:36 PM
Has anyone drilled one of the 1.5x ACOGs TA44 at close range? My old vision appreciates the clarity afforded by magnified optics however slight.

Haraise
10-28-2012, 07:37 PM
Yeah, except for the loose battery terminals..........all other noted issues apply.

Damn that's disappointing... I have a T1 now, and it's some kind of smeared out star formation. I really don't like the dot (not even close) shape.

rob_s
11-01-2012, 08:20 PM
The battery in my R-1 went out in less than a year. I left it on at about 5 clicks of intensity so not too much. The battery was new from the package and the R-1 was brand new.

I don't think it's that big a deal; it certainly does not make me want to dump the Aimpoint. I have a spare battery on the gun, and make it a point to either dryfire, shoot, or handle the AR at least once a week. That way i can keep pretty good track if the Aimpoint is draining the battery too fast. But it does go to show that everything can fail, even something that sales people swear won't fail.

The R-1 is not the M4

F-Trooper05
11-02-2012, 11:20 AM
I'm pretty surprised to see the number of guys here who have issues seeing the Aimpoint dot. My eyes aren't terrible, but I do have a slight astigmatism and need prescription glasses for driving, shooting, and reading things far away (road signs, white boards, etc.), and I can't see the EOTech reticle to save my life without glasses. It's literally just a giant red blob. My T1, on the other hand, while not perfect without glasses, is still plenty useable.

JMS
11-02-2012, 12:45 PM
In grossly general terms, a laser projection is going to be a crisper one, simply due to the nature of what makes a laser a laser, vs. a light emitting doide projection. Bearing that in mind, and bearing in mind the variances in types of eyesight impairment (diagnosed or otherwise), eye damage, floaters, hours of TV/computer screen staring, how much Vitamin A the body's getting, and all sorts of intangibles, it becomes less surprising just how many users see some shape other than a dot. It's important to remember that the middle of the bell-curve of the user population has no issue with an oddly-shaped dot, whatsoever, and are far more numerous than those who do.

I've seen the problem diminish or disappear in a given shooter by simply reminding them to stop focusing on the dot, and focus on the target...

....or dial the intensity down a notch or two (boilerplate for any RDS...)...

...or using the dot through the aperture of a rear BUIS (incereses the length/depth of the eye's focal plane; works better with an absolute co-witness setup).

Forgetting about zeroing to the "middle" of an odd shape, and keeping as specifically to a particular part of the dot can also make the overall shape less of an impact...that whole software > hardware thing. Side Note: Even with a perfect dot, zeroing to 12 oclock of the dot can be a worthwhile practice, as it alleviates the "dot covers the target" aspect that some worry over (mostly in terms of dot sizes, not clarity).

Not bagging on anybody that has a problem with odd shapes or fuzziness; I can't stand the pixellated nature of the EO reticle's 65MOA circle (though I like the reticle as a whole), so I can surely identify with the feeling. I just had to remind myself, over time, to ignore the circle until I needed it for range estimation. Otherwise, a dot's a dot, and short of the zeroing process, it's not in keeping with the intent of the device to worry overmuch about how super-duper crisp or perfectly shaped a dot is, since it's NOT a precision optic. Regardless of brand, they're mostly-parallax-free POINT optics.

JHC
11-02-2012, 05:29 PM
In grossly general terms, a laser projection is going to be a crisper one, simply due to the nature of what makes a laser a laser, vs. a light emitting doide projection. Bearing that in mind, and bearing in mind the variances in types of eyesight impairment (diagnosed or otherwise), eye damage, floaters, hours of TV/computer screen staring, how much Vitamin A the body's getting, and all sorts of intangibles, it becomes less surprising just how many users see some shape other than a dot. It's important to remember that the middle of the bell-curve of the user population has no issue with an oddly-shaped dot, whatsoever, and are far more numerous than those who do.

I've seen the problem diminish or disappear in a given shooter by simply reminding them to stop focusing on the dot, and focus on the target...

....or dial the intensity down a notch or two (boilerplate for any RDS...)...

...or using the dot through the aperture of a rear BUIS (incereses the length/depth of the eye's focal plane; works better with an absolute co-witness setup).

Forgetting about zeroing to the "middle" of an odd shape, and keeping as specifically to a particular part of the dot can also make the overall shape less of an impact...that whole software > hardware thing. Side Note: Even with a perfect dot, zeroing to 12 oclock of the dot can be a worthwhile practice, as it alleviates the "dot covers the target" aspect that some worry over (mostly in terms of dot sizes, not clarity).

Not bagging on anybody that has a problem with odd shapes or fuzziness; I can't stand the pixellated nature of the EO reticle's 65MOA circle (though I like the reticle as a whole), so I can surely identify with the feeling. I just had to remind myself, over time, to ignore the circle until I needed it for range estimation. Otherwise, a dot's a dot, and short of the zeroing process, it's not in keeping with the intent of the device to worry overmuch about how super-duper crisp or perfectly shaped a dot is, since it's NOT a precision optic. Regardless of brand, they're mostly-parallax-free POINT optics.

VERY interesting post. So THAT's what that is. I could not hardly believe my eyes when I've seen that. Pretty slow way to shoot though. ;) Eot dot good, T-1 dots (two I've tried) horrible. T-1 through an aperture, pretty good.

rob_s
11-03-2012, 08:22 AM
I've seen the problem diminish or disappear in a given shooter by simply reminding them to stop focusing on the dot, and focus on the target...

This is huge, and is right up there with "my front sight post is in the way". Stop looking at the dot/FSP and focus on the target like you're supposed to, and many of these things go away. When I got my first Eotech and turned it on in the house I thought "my god! how does anyone work with all these dots and flare?!" Then I went to the range and never gave it a second thought. That Eotech, with a diamond reticule, is on my 9mm suppressed AR today and I still use it in steel matches.

That said, even when doing it this way, I see a 4 MOA Aimpoint dot as a slight figure 8. However, as long as it's repeatable and consistent, I can pick a point on the 8 and use that for precision/distance shooting.

It's the hip thing to make fun of those that sell or trade 4 MOA H/T-1s for the newer 2 MOA version, but if you have fuzzy-dot issues and can't work around it or find the fuzz to be inconsistent, making the change the the 50% smaller dot can be huge. Even using my tip-of-8 method I can still get better hits at distance and shoot tighter groups with a 2 MOA dot than a 4. and I get the 8 even with glasses corrected for my astigmatism, and after taking my Aimpoint with me to the eye dr. and having her work with me to get my prescription to work with it.

Cecil Burch
11-03-2012, 11:37 AM
The R-1 is not the M4

I'm well aware of that. It is, however, a standard micro Aimpoint and it is a data point on battery life.

Dagga Boy
11-03-2012, 07:04 PM
I'm well aware of that. It is, however, a standard micro Aimpoint and it is a data point on battery life.

As we have often said, we have no control on the batteries and the storage on them prior to going into the sight. I have seen cases where folks got crap battery life out of the first battery on an Aimpoint that came with the sight and then after a new fresh battery, that is the end of the issue. I wouldn't base a total opinion on one battery. Also, if the R1 was purchased at a very deep discounted, that sight may have been around awhile along with its battery.