Shooting For Survival, 1960's Style

[iWander]

I feel like I'm watching Adam-12. I enjoy seeing how much training has evolved...

https://youtu.be/7tUW0cUkNv0

[Torquemada]

I feel like I'm watching Adam-12. I enjoy seeing how much training has evolved...

https://youtu.be/7tUW0cUkNv0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2B48FmLkys

Hope your not knocking these videos.. its better then what most civilian mandated training programs will provide for a person.

Althouh 18 years ago there was a "local" in 120 mile training company doing state permit training that mandated people to run while shooting, and doing other things you only actually see in the bank shoot out in The Wild Bunch

[iWander]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2B48FmLkys

Hope your not knocking these videos..

Far from it. I love the history... that's why I shared it

[HCM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2B48FmLkys

Hope your not knocking these videos.. its better then what most civilian mandated training programs will provide for a person.

Althouh 18 years ago there was a "local" in 120 mile training company doing state permit training that mandated people to run while shooting, and doing other things you only actually see in the bank shoot out in The Wild Bunch

The use of cover and skip fire information in the FBI video is useful. Otherwise a lot of what’s in the FBI video is setting people up for failure. It’s entertaining but there are reasons none of this is taught anymore.

You can’t post a Wild Bunch reference and not post the scene:


https://youtu.be/gOJJm_cSRds

[Yung]

108470

[Erick Gelhaus]

108470

SMDH ... Not at you Yung. Rather, at those who just don't know.

[PNWTO]

The use of cover and skip fire information in the FBI video is useful. Otherwise a lot of what’s in the FBI video is setting people up for failure. It’s entertaining but there are reasons none of this is taught anymore.


This stance plus the point shooting gets me every time; we (everyone) have/has come a long way as shooters.Wasn’t it DB who talked about getting scolded at the police academy… for using his sights?

108472

[Whiskey]

SMDH ... Not at you Yung. Rather, at those who just don't know.

I swear I saw an article in one of the NRA type gun magazines that referenced Jelly Bryce, something similar to that stance, and him teaching at the FBI. Can't go back and reference it, it was in the office shitter when I read it.

[Jim Watson]

This stance plus the point shooting gets me every time; we (everyone) have/has come a long way as shooters.Wasn’t it DB who talked about getting scolded at the police academy… for using his sights?

The new New Jersey CCW qualification CoF says "point shoulder"

[Horseman]

QUOTE:

This stance plus the point shooting gets me every time; we (everyone) have/has come a long way as shooters. Wasn’t it DB who talked about getting scolded at the police academy… for using his sights?


As a brand-new part-time cop, circa 1994 or so, I was exhorted by several old hairbag instructors to shoot at close range like this. One even advocated canting the pistol sideways and bracing it on the hip.

That particular individual also had our class shoot shotguns from the hip at "close range" (anything less than 10 yards :p).

Keep in mind that this stuff was still "gospel" in some places, thirty years or more after the "Modern Technique" was introduced...

[TGS]

As a brand-new part-time cop, circa 1994 or so, I was exhorted by several old hairbag instructors to shoot at close range like this. One even advocated canting the pistol sideways and bracing it on the hip.

That's referred to as shooting from retention, and isn't really what is being discussed here. While many here prefer the pectoral index technique taught by Craig Douglas, shooting from retention has a legitimate place and purpose, and bracing at the hip with the pistol canted outward is still an accepted technique and widely taught.

That's different from point shooting in general, which is typically taught for targets not within grappling range. Within grappling range is where retention shooting is used.

[jnc36rcpd]

"Point shoulder" was part of our range commands for many years. It might have meant something to whoever wrote the course of fire, but the term befuddled everyone else. As far as I know, everyone aimed when firing from point shoulder. The term was eventually dropped during a rewrite of the course of fire.

Hip shooting with the shotgun was also an historical artifact in our limited training/qualification with the gauge. We dropped that during a redesign of the training. While this is a valid argument for a close quarters position with the shotgun, we didn't think hip shooting was it. Given more time for shotgun training, we might have included alternative techniques, but we had limited resources. All shotgun rounds were fired from the shoulder.

Jelly Bryce was certainly a good Special Agent and a tremendous shot. I don't doubt he had some influence on FBI firearms training at the the time. The problem, of course, is that Bryce had remarkable physical skills and devoted an extraordinary amount of his time to honing his pistolcraft. I don't think we can expect most agents or officers to shoot at his skill level and certainly not using many of his techniques.

[HCM]

More Fudd Lore and bad advice like “you don’t have to aim shotguns…”

They may not have had Flite control Buck in the 1970s but they had chokes and slugs…

They had slings too.


https://youtu.be/eBb2jGAOLHc

[Horseman]

That's referred to as shooting from retention, and isn't really what is being discussed here. While many here prefer the pectoral index technique taught by Craig Douglas, shooting from retention has a legitimate place and purpose, and bracing at the hip with the pistol canted outward is still an accepted technique and widely taught.

That's different from point shooting in general, which is typically taught for targets not within grappling range. Within grappling range is where retention shooting is used.

My point was that numerous un-sighted fire techniques were still being advocated in law enforcement training, even into the middle 90's. Point-shoulder with one hand, unsighted with two hands, and one-handed hip shooting. The rationale was often given that "You won't have time to use your sights".

The technique I referenced above was not taught in the context of a retention position, but (perhaps mistakenly) as a speed technique.

[Horseman]

....

[Joe in PNG]

Derp... derp never really dies. No matter how ineffectual the technique, or how many experiences have proven the thing wrong, some coterie somewhere will still hold it as holy writ