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View Full Version : Things that surprised me at my first ECQC



ford.304
05-22-2023, 10:46 AM
I'll start out with what didn't -- it was by far the best organized and best instructed class on *anything* I have ever attended. The pedagogy, congruency, and intentionality of everything that Craig & Brian showed was at a whole different level than anything else I've experienced as far as pure instruction quality.

I'll also say that (because I've been cyberstalking Craig's curriculum for over a decade before taking the class), the core of the lessons of the limitations of sport jiu jitsu into a weapons based environment did not surprised me, *even though* they got me stabbed in the taint and shot in the leg in my first evolutions. I am too comfortable in guard, I ignore hands too much... I had those in mind, but that wasn't enough to save my ass vs years of muscle memory.

No, the things that surprised were weird differences that ended up being kind of huge in live action...

- Doing jiu jitsu in work boots *sucks*". Getting hooks in and controlling with them felt like playing piano in a cast.

- Hand control really modifies positions. I achieved back control, but in much too high of a position, which I would normally adjust half a dozen different ways -- and none of them were an option because both my arms were extended locking out my opponent's arm so he would stop stabbing me.

- A gun (at least carried strong side) introduces an extreme level of asymmetry that is not present in normal grappling. An arm drag on my right will result in an immediate weapon access. An arm drag on my left is no better or worse than it is in grappling. It seems a simple training change to try to make my "good" side for a move the side that lets me get to the gun.

- The fake guns, knives, and helmets didn't affect the years of conditioning for "this is a game." I was playing. I got fake shot/stabbed "aww, you got me." On the one hand... hurrah, stress inoculation! I was only breathing hard after some of the evolutions because of the damn helmets. On the other hand... maaaybe I need to find a way to pay more focussed attention to the fact that I'm losing and losing means BAD THINGS, not just a slap bump & try again. Not sure how to bring that mindset into my training more, but I think I need to find a way to.

I will admit, I have resisted integrating too much "self defense" stuff into my regular jiu jitsu training. *Primarily* because I didn't trust local instruction to be quality. I didn't want to "grab some fake knives and figure things out" because I was pretty sure that was whatever I was going to "figure out" was going to be magic bullshit that only worked because my opponent didn't know the simple counter. And the available instruction seemed even worse (and somehow... all taught by weirdos?)

This course changed my mind. The fundamental principles they showed make me feel like maybe I can "trust" some of the stuff we might figure out on the mat. I'm excited to pick up some blue guns & rubber knives and go to town with my jiu jitsu friends. It also made me really wish that it was reasonable to have regular courses where we continue beyond the basics. That is the biggest advantage, to me, that jiu jitsu has over gun training -- you don't save up and travel for a couple weekend classes, you show up every day and drill and spar. What does *that* look like in this context -- what does the advanced class look like?

I want ADCC for entangled gunfights and training camps for it is what I'm saying. Get FloGrappling on the phone and let's make this happen ;-)

eaglefrq
05-22-2023, 07:06 PM
I'm interested in this course, but I'm curious about how much grappling is involved. I have a fusion at C6/C7 so I'm worried about issues with my neck.

Joe S
05-22-2023, 08:21 PM
I'm interested in this course, but I'm curious about how much grappling is involved. I have a fusion at C6/C7 so I'm worried about issues with my neck.

My understanding is that Craig, aka SouthNarc, can work with your limitations just fine. If I remember correctly, he has had everything from teenage girls to 83 year old men in his class, all with varying abilities. I would just let him know your issues, and sit out anything you think is a bad idea.

eaglefrq
05-22-2023, 08:25 PM
My understanding is that Craig, aka SouthNarc, can work with your limitations just fine. If I remember correctly, he has had everything from teenage girls to 83 year old men in his class, all with varying abilities. I would just let him know your issues, and sit out anything you think is a bad idea.

That's good to hear. Thanks for the information, I will look at courses in my area and I will contact Craig.

Flamingo
05-22-2023, 11:30 PM
I went last year and I am going again this year. I think everyone who can should do this class.

BobM
05-23-2023, 07:54 AM
I'm interested in this course, but I'm curious about how much grappling is involved. I have a fusion at C6/C7 so I'm worried about issues with my neck.

Craig keeps the evolutions under pretty good control. I was 50 when I went and was concerned about getting injured but could tell that any serious injury would be very unlikely.

Guerrero
05-23-2023, 08:29 AM
Craig keeps the evolutions under pretty good control. I was 50 when I went and was concerned about getting injured but could tell that any serious injury would be very unlikely.

I think Craig said he can count on one had the number of serious injuries he's had in ECQC (the Belgian/Brit cop incident comes to mind ;) )

ford.304
05-23-2023, 09:20 AM
I think Craig said he can count on one had the number of serious injuries he's had in ECQC (the Belgian/Brit cop incident comes to mind ;) )

I think we had 3 "injuries" in this class.

The worst was one guy had a minor finger dislocation during an evolution when the other guy used a gun disarm and his finger got stuck in the trigger guard. It popped back into place and seemed to be doing ok.

One guy had to leave early because he got sunscreen in his eyes, couldn't get it rinsed out enough, and had a major reaction (felt really bad for the dude).

A guy who already had a bad knee banged it on the ground in a takedown during an evolution. He limped a little bit for the rest of the class, but said it was fine by the end of the next day.

Oh, and I had to put a band-aid on a cut on my thumb from doing disarms on a fake gun a guy brought in which had an optic on it. So, you know, real serious injury.

We had folks of all skill levels, fitness levels, and sizes there. I would say that if you were training with spinal injury, that some of the wrestling drills rely on head positioning and pressure and can put some force on your neck if you're "doing them enthusiastically wrong." But from my experience in jiu jitsu the wonderfully easy answer to that is "talk to your partner before you start the drill and don't go as hard on those drills." And by all means tell Craig and he'll take care of you.

Totem Polar
05-23-2023, 01:31 PM
I took my first ECQC (of 3, or 4 if one counts EWO) with a fresh off the jits mat meniscus tear. Knee swollen like a grapefruit, non bendable. Maple Syrup Actual had to help me schlepp my shit from the car to the range. I paid him in whiskey. But I digress: I had to sit out the evos. Still waaaay worth it.

I was legally blind (detachment related cataracts, 3 and 4+) when I took EWO--I got knocked out by an elementary school teacher in one of the evos--but not hurt, Craig called it the second it looked like I was compromised. None of these things interfered with my learning a ton in each course. I had to sit out the last Evo in my 3rd ECQC due to my knee again. Point being, you work with what you have, and the obligations you bring. If you're a micro surgeon, take the class and skip the EVOs. It's not the end of the world. I'd note that ECQC caused *none* of my injuries; I arrived as a beat-up dilettante martial artist in my 50s, and Craig worked with me--and everyone else there--perfectly. He's a genius at matching people up, and the nature of the course screens out the assholes. I've never found better training partners anywhere, and I remain friends with many of my fellow alumni to this day. I'm grabbing lunch this week with a bud from ECQC #1, in fact.

I'm so sold on the overarching training concept that I'm looking at juggling some employment to get to my 5th Craig course in August. Most def still my highest priority as a training junkie.
FWIW.

RoyGBiv
05-23-2023, 01:46 PM
That's good to hear. Thanks for the information, I will look at courses in my area and I will contact Craig.
I have similar (although no fusion yet) neck issues.... 2/3 and 6/7
Would be interested in hearing your experience if/when you take the class...



We had folks of all skill levels, fitness levels, and sizes there. I would say that if you were training with spinal injury, that some of the wrestling drills rely on head positioning and pressure and can put some force on your neck if you're "doing them enthusiastically wrong." But from my experience in jiu jitsu the wonderfully easy answer to that is "talk to your partner before you start the drill and don't go as hard on those drills." And by all means tell Craig and he'll take care of you.

Encouraging... Thanks..

Guerrero
05-23-2023, 02:17 PM
The worst was one guy had a minor finger dislocation during an evolution when the other guy used a gun disarm and his finger got stuck in the trigger guard. It popped back into place and seemed to be doing ok.


Truth. I jacked up three fingers in EWO; sprains that took a several weeks to get back to normal (read: "three weeks of heckling from Guerrera")

ford.304
05-23-2023, 02:21 PM
Truth. I jacked up three fingers in EWO; sprains that took a several weeks to get back to normal (read: "three weeks of heckling from Guerrera")

Gun retention seems to be pretty awful on your fingers, from my limited experience (2 classes) drilling on them. I'm looking into blue guns now and trying to think if there's anything to consider to make them less injury-causing. Maybe just cut off the finger guard entirely...

bofe954
05-23-2023, 04:38 PM
Gun retention seems to be pretty awful on your fingers, from my limited experience (2 classes) drilling on them. I'm looking into blue guns now and trying to think if there's anything to consider to make them less injury-causing. Maybe just cut off the finger guard entirely...

Or just don't put your finger in it I guess. Is cranking on a blue gun when someone's finger is in the trigger guard the equivalent on cranking an armbar on your training partner? I know it's ECQC and everything but it seems like basically intentionally breaking your classmates fingers might be avoidable...

RevolverRob
05-24-2023, 12:10 PM
Or just don't put your finger in it I guess. Is cranking on a blue gun when someone's finger is in the trigger guard the equivalent on cranking an armbar on your training partner? I know it's ECQC and everything but it seems like basically intentionally breaking your classmates fingers might be avoidable...

Honestly, removing the trigger guard is better with a Blue Gun used in disarms training. If you're indexed along the side and someone wrenches the gun, your finger is already extended, they only need to wrench it outward and you've got a dislocated finger. It results in more injuries, not less.

This is also one of the reasons why the knife grips we teach are basically closed fists (no 'thumb capping' or thumb on spine) and why your BJJ instructor tells you to not put your thumbs on the inside of your Gi grips. In all those cases, any pre-existing extension of the digit makes for both a weaker grip and a grip that is easier to result in a jammed or broken finger through twisting/wrenching.

Also, ECQC uses SIMs in the EVOs. So you're trying to shoot the guy trying to take your gun.