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View Full Version : Gen4 19 - The problems have started ....



JV_
03-28-2011, 11:22 AM
After about 4100 rounds, my Gen4 19 experienced two malfunctions in today's 250 round session. I was shooting Federal American Eagle 124g ammo, with the 04 recoil spring. Here is one of the malfunctions:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_KpsppceJuQ0/TZC0cUomPnI/AAAAAAAAEs8/4mTAwcNnI14/s640/.jpg

The extractor seems to have a lot of wear on it, it doesn't drop out of the slide easily. It seems to be binding a bit on the striker block (during removal). This one has a "3" on it. The "4" I picked up from VA Arms, it doesn't bind on the block.

Unusual wear:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lcTBgLWjTNQ/Tekjqdu5YaI/AAAAAAAAAKE/TpvfH07Y6dA/Glock%252520Extractor%252520%2525231.jpg

Number "3":
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AShvZllczGI/Tekjqeq9xBI/AAAAAAAAAKA/rLHUL8ZLzzU/Glock%252520Extractor%252520%2525231a.jpg

VolGrad
03-28-2011, 11:48 AM
Interesting. Most people look at me weird when I told them my Gen4 G19 didn't really start choking up bad until around the 1k rd mark. That was with the 03 spring. Once I put the 04 spring it's ran approx 1.2k without major issue. I had a stovepipe and a double feed in the AFHF class a few weeks ago. Will it remain without major issue? I guess we'll see. I would like to think it's GtG now but honestly I do still have doubts after hearing of more folks having troubles develop down the road.

The extractor being tight and not dropping from the slide .... I think this is sort of normal lately and not restricted to Gen4 models, same with the top pin that goes through the locking block. I have had a hell of a time with both on recent production models.

JV_
03-28-2011, 11:51 AM
I thought I was lucky and my gun was GTG. Heck, I was even talking about how well it's been going - just 2 days ago.

I peeked at my extractor a few hundred rounds ago, when I was comparing versions. It didn't look as worn as it is now, but perhaps I didn't look hard enough.

We'll see how this "4" model works, I hope it's better. If not, I have one of the Lone Wolf LCI extractors coming - as a backup.

LittleLebowski
03-28-2011, 11:52 AM
Did you try the number 4?

I forgot all about today, damnit.

JV_
03-28-2011, 11:57 AM
Did you try the number 4?I just picked up the 4 on the way home from the range. I'll give it a work out on Wednesday night.


I forgot all about today, damnit.Both German and I shot poorly. It's better that fewer people witnessed it.

SLG
03-28-2011, 11:58 AM
Wait till you hear from Todd:-)

JV_
03-28-2011, 12:00 PM
Wait till you hear from Todd:-)I think he did something to it when he handled it a few weeks ago.

LittleLebowski
03-28-2011, 12:01 PM
Wait till you hear from Todd:-)

He could break an anvil with a feather as we say in Wyoming :D

LittleLebowski
03-28-2011, 12:01 PM
Both German and I shot poorly. It's better that fewer people witnessed it.

Welcome to my world. I shot like a bag of ass Saturday so maybe it's poetic justice....

JDM
03-28-2011, 12:10 PM
like a bag of ass

LMFAO!!!!!

I've never heard this particular description before. I nearly died.

Kyle Reese
03-28-2011, 01:16 PM
I certainly wasn't feeling the mojo this morning. :o

rsa-otc
03-28-2011, 03:25 PM
Welcome to my world. I shot like a bag of ass Saturday so maybe it's poetic justice....

Don't feel lonely after recording 2 low 6 sec and 1 sub 6 FAST runs last Saturday, This Saturday My first run was 8 plus seconds. And that was my only clean one. The 2 subsequent runs were total shambles. Every other drill was a mess as well. :mad: Should have packed up and went home. Just wasted ammo trying to sort myself out. :p

willowofwisp
03-28-2011, 10:00 PM
I went and bought a new Glock 19 today..I was tempted to pick up a gen4 but after some kid ran into the showroom with his gen4 17 that was malfunctioning..i stuck with the tried and true gen3 haha.

Mjolnir
03-28-2011, 10:15 PM
"bag of ass"... LOL! I'm borrowing that one, Lee. You can have the credit but I will have the effect!

ToddG
03-29-2011, 01:00 AM
My 19/4 had about 2,000 rounds through it before it started to develop real extraction/ejection issues.

Every time I get enough rounds through my G17/4 to trust it again, another FTE crops up.

I'm going to pull the (2003) extractor out of my G17/4 tomorrow. I wonder if it has the same mysterious wear that folks are seeing on their 2010/2011 extractors. If so, it would indicate that it's the slide dimensions rather than the extractor which may be causing the problem.

Whatever it is, you can be pretty sure Gaston won't be getting a Hanukah card from the Green family this year.

F-Trooper05
03-29-2011, 01:27 AM
My 19/4 had about 2,000 rounds through it before it started to develop real extraction/ejection issues.

Every time I get enough rounds through my G17/4 to trust it again, another FTE crops up.

I'm going to pull the (2003) extractor out of my G17/4 tomorrow. I wonder if it has the same mysterious wear that folks are seeing on their 2010/2011 extractors. If so, it would indicate that it's the slide dimensions rather than the extractor which may be causing the problem.

Whatever it is, you can be pretty sure Gaston won't be getting a Hanukah card from the Green family this year.


Are you still carrying it?

JV_
03-29-2011, 05:33 AM
I'm going to pull the (2003) extractor out of my G17/4 tomorrow. I wonder if it has the same mysterious wear that folks are seeing on their 2010/2011 extractors. If so, it would indicate that it's the slide dimensions rather than the extractor which may be causing the problem.

From a few minutes on Google, which now makes me an expert, folks are reporting .005" of thickness variation with some extractors.

Tonight, I'll take a micrometer to my 6 extractors and post up some measurements with identifier markings. I'm curious to see which guns are the "narrow waist" version that's documented here:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16193799&postcount=35

TCinVA
03-29-2011, 09:18 AM
After about 4100 rounds, my Gen4 19 experienced two malfunctions in today's 250 round session. I was shooting Federal American Eagle 124g ammo, with the 04 recoil spring.

http://tikiroom.com/img/2090x49023cf1.jpg

LittleLebowski
03-29-2011, 09:52 AM
I called Glock yesterday, hoping to get a new extractor and #4 spring assembly. The guy I talked to was nice but blamed my extractor wear on just the finish wearing off prematurely and said that since I must be shooting weak range ammo that the #4 spring would fix everything. He sent me the #4 spring assembly.

Since I'm running the #3 and getting a stovepipe every 300-500 rds or so, I will probably switch out to my tried and true Gen3 G19's extractor setup for my class this weekend.

JV_
03-29-2011, 09:57 AM
LL - Just to clarify: I don't know that the number on the extractor is actually a version/iteration number. It could be a number to aid in the identification the subcontractor who made it, or something else.

An friend of mine, an Advanced Glock Armorer, mentioned that they don't make extractors, locking blocks and springs.

turbolag23
03-29-2011, 10:36 AM
An friend of mine, an Advanced Glock Armorer, mentioned that they don't make extractors, locking blocks and springs.

Thats interesting, I believe in my armorers course in January they told us they make everything in house except the springs.

SLG
03-29-2011, 10:38 AM
They also invented the internet. And pants.

LittleLebowski
03-29-2011, 10:46 AM
They also invented the internet. And pants.

Pants are always optional though.

LittleLebowski
03-29-2011, 10:49 AM
LL - Just to clarify: I don't know that the number on the extractor is actually a version/iteration number. It could be a number to aid in the identification the subcontractor who made it, or something else.


We need to clarify this.

turbolag23
03-29-2011, 10:49 AM
Pants are always optional though.

I've found that not to be true...

LittleLebowski
03-29-2011, 10:51 AM
I've found that not to be true...

I could have sworn SLG said pants were optional for his class.....

turbolag23
03-29-2011, 11:11 AM
I could have sworn SLG said pants were optional for his class.....

oh in SLG's class. that may have been my problem. sorry for the misunderstanding.

TAP
03-29-2011, 11:16 AM
Once I put the 04 spring it's ran approx 1.2k without issue.
Did you forget about the stovepipe and double feed in the AFHF class?

VolGrad
03-29-2011, 11:26 AM
Did you forget about the stovepipe and double feed in the AFHF class?

No. I must have just got nutty when typing. I do recall those and they are always in the back of my mind. So much in fact I am still not carrying this gun. I have even considered trying to find a local trade for a Gen3 instead. Seriously. I've also put feelers out trying to find an OD Gen3 G19 at GSSF/Armorer price. If I can find one I will prob sell my Gen4 and cut my losses.

willowofwisp
03-29-2011, 12:02 PM
Thats interesting, I believe in my armorers course in January they told us they make everything in house except the springs.

Yup that's what they said, and that the swiss make the springs.

JV_
03-29-2011, 03:35 PM
This was definitely one of their narrow waist extractors, apparently a newer 2010 design, that has the dip in the middle of it:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_KpsppceJuQ0/TZJIZ6Ah3gI/AAAAAAAAEvY/PticyPhn2N0/IMG_6261-FB.jpg

ToddG
03-29-2011, 03:52 PM
I'm going to pull the (2003) extractor out of my G17/4 tomorrow. I wonder if it has the same mysterious wear that folks are seeing on their 2010/2011 extractors.

It did not. There was some very minor finish wear, but nothing that appeared out of place for an extractor that's seen ~2,500 rounds.

JV_
03-29-2011, 04:28 PM
All of my older, pre-2010 guns, have extractors that are .174" tall. They do not have the narrow waist. They have markings on the center section of the extractor, not on the cylindrical part like I showed earlier.

All of my 2010+ guns (Gen 3 and Gen 4) have extractors that are .176" tall, have numbers on the cylindrical portion of the extractor - like my pic in the first post.

If the extractor cut out is the same, .002" may account for the wear.

I wish I had some data points on whether one number/iteration was more problematic than others.

jslaker
03-29-2011, 04:51 PM
All of my older, pre-2010 guns, have extractors that are .174" tall. They do not have the narrow waist. They have markings on the center section of the extractor, not on the cylindrical part like I showed earlier.

All of my 2010+ guns (Gen 3 and Gen 4) have extractors that are .176" tall, have numbers on the cylindrical portion of the extractor - like my pic in the first post.

If the extractor cut out is the same, .002" may account for the wear.

I wish I had some data points on whether one number/iteration was more problematic than others.

Props for you for trying to gather hard data rather than conjecture either way.

JV_
03-29-2011, 04:58 PM
It's no problem. I'll try to gather some hook dimensions later.

Pennzoil
03-30-2011, 10:08 PM
JV

My problem Gen 3 has an extractor marked 3 also and is from 10/10. I've posted about it acouple of times in the endurance thread with some less then stellar pictures. I'll measure the extractors on mine if it would help. I've given up on fixing it for now and have my AA conversion kit on it till after my classes in April.

From endurance thread.New extractor stamped 3 looks way worse then the new extractor I have stamped 4. The one stamped 3 is in the gen3 26 I've had issues with the one stamped 4 has run fine in my primary gun RTF2 19. Tiny sample but think I read somewhere the stamp # is the batch id.

JV_
03-31-2011, 04:00 PM
All of my 2010+ guns (Gen 3 and Gen 4) have extractors that are .176" tall, have numbers on the cylindrical portion of the extractor - like my pic in the first post.

FWIW: The Lone Wolf extractor is .176" tall, without the narrow waist. If this #4 doesn't work, I'll try that next.

GearScout
04-03-2011, 11:02 PM
Here's some visuals of the wear on the "4" extractor from my G19 gen4 for reference. It has 1000 rounds through it.

34353637

JV_
04-04-2011, 11:01 AM
I'm getting hit in the forehead a good bit with my #4. I'll give the LW a try next range trip.

PatrickL
04-04-2011, 09:57 PM
I'm getting hit in the forehead a good bit with my #4. I'll give the LW a try next range trip.

JV, let us know what you find out. I too have a new Gen 4 19 that is extracting shells all over the place which includes my forehead. I purchased a LW extractor as well after reading on another site that it indeed resolved or helped the problem. However, I won't be able to test it out until the weekend. The original glock extractor had the same wear as GearScout's pics above. The number on the glock extractor is "2".

To give you a little background, I purchased mine in March with a firing date of February 2011. It has an 04 recoil assembly, and I do use the 115 ammo for target practice. I do not have any FTEs, just erratic ejections. No problems with other pistols of mine in 9mm.

Thanks.

JV_
04-05-2011, 05:15 AM
I hope to hit the range on Wed night, I'll keep you posted.

turbolag23
04-05-2011, 07:25 AM
when you say erratic extracting what exactly does that mean? is that tied to the gen4, extractor, or caliber? I have gen3 40sw with a "3" extractor that launches brass all over.

JV_
04-05-2011, 07:36 AM
It goes in an inconsistent direction.

PatrickL
04-07-2011, 07:23 PM
I hope to hit the range on Wed night, I'll keep you posted.

JV, any difference with the LW extractor compared with stock? Any issues or better results?

JV_
04-07-2011, 08:44 PM
JV, any difference with the LW extractor compared with stock? Any issues or better results?

I didn't make it last night, but did go tonight, and forgot to try the LW extractor. The recently installed #4 shows the exact same wear as the #3.

PatrickL
04-07-2011, 09:02 PM
I didn't make it last night, but did go tonight, and forgot to try the LW extractor. The recently installed #4 shows the exact same wear as the #3.

No worries. Hopefully I can make it out this weekend with the LW extractor. I really want to see if it makes a difference. My forehead needs a break. I did notice that the claw in the LW extractor has a slightly different angle built in compared to the glock oem. Sorry, i can't explain it very well but there is a difference if you look very closely inside of the claw. We'll see.

I also heard that Glock now has an 0-4-1 spring in new Glock 19s. Not sure what purpose it is for.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329822&page=2

JV_
04-07-2011, 09:21 PM
I also heard that Glock now has an 0-4-1 spring in new Glock 19s.How many will it take to get it right?

ToddG
04-07-2011, 09:41 PM
How many will it take to get it right?

The real question is whether changing the recoil spring over and over again is addressing the real problem or just putting a band-aid on it...

Chuck Haggard
04-08-2011, 08:16 AM
The real question is whether changing the recoil spring over and over again is addressing the real problem or just putting a band-aid on it...


Personally, I am stunned they have taken to swapping recoil springs since the previous fix for everything was either a new magazine spring or a different follower.


I don't get how you can design a revolutionary handgun, from scratch, arguably one of the most durable and reliable pistols ever built, and then not be able to figure out how to keep it running 25 years later.

JV_
04-08-2011, 08:36 AM
I called and talked to tech support @ Glock. They weren't forthcoming with information about the 041 spring and wanted me to send in the gun. I'm not doing that, yet.

I ordered a regular, single spring, recoil assembly with an 18 lb spring. That's the spring weight of a regular Gen 3 19. I'm about due for a spring change anyway...

LW extractor will be tested on Saturday night.

LittleLebowski
04-08-2011, 09:32 AM
I'm considering an LW extractor as well...... I took my extractor and did a light polish on the horizontal surfaces. Haven't been able to run a lot of rounds through it yet. Glock also sent me the #4 marked spring.

PatrickL
04-08-2011, 12:12 PM
Its a never ending story. If brass ejections were consistent and not in my face, I would be a happy camper. There is a reason this happens. Solving it is the challenge... even for Glock based on what I have seen. Ammo and limpwristing is not an excuse that I will accept from Glock. Let us know how your LW extractor works out. Thanks.

VolGrad
04-08-2011, 12:51 PM
Solving it is the challenge... Not challenging for me. My solution was easy. I sold my Gen4 G19 over the weekend. Yes, I disclosed previous issues to the buyer. He said it was to be a game gun anyway and wasn't concerned.

Replaced it with a NIB OD Gen3 G19 and I'm not looking back. Re; Gen4 issues .... I'm still interested but no longer concerned.

ADK
04-09-2011, 05:24 PM
. . . from someone who had to get a G23 Gen4 from multiple reliability problems to running great so far:

1) Extractor was sticky at first (failures to eject and erratic ejection), but began to drop free after 100's of rounds and several detail strips and cleanings. If it didn't eventually drop free, I might have tried polishing it lightly. Result: Reliable, but still erratic, ejection (e.g. cases sometimes hitting my head, which I consider a SERIOUS problem--I may not have shooting glasses on when push comes ot shove).

My opinion: ALL tolerances on the Gen4 are tighter. You can tell this just by handling the gun next to an earlier Glock. I had to beat out the pins for the first few disassemblies (still need to give the locking block pin a few light taps). My extractor was initially “sticky” and needed to be pried out the first couple times. Maybe the extractors themselves are not “bad,” maybe the hole they go in is now tighter or manufacturing variations result in some too-tight fits. Maybe Glock figured consumers like “tight” guns (read any gun rag article about a high-dollar custom 1911 and its tightness will be praised), and many folks do feel the Gen4s are more accurate. Also, tighter lockup in general should contribute to decreased felt recoil and decreased battering (ref broken pins etc in older Glock .40s).

2) Replaced stock Extractor Depressor Assembly with this:
http://www.whitesounddefense.com/products/H.R.E.D.-357-Sig-%7B47%7D-40-S%26W.html
(9mm version is here: http://www.whitesounddefense.com/products/H.R.E.D.-9mm.html)
Result: Perfectly consistent ejection.
The logic explained on the website makes sense to me, but the proof was in the shooting. Hadn't heard about this anywhere else, YMMV, etc. Note that at first this had a LOT more tension than the stock assembly, to the point of making removal of the slide cover plate difficult and SHOOTING up out of the channel when I finally got it removed. Seems to have broken in quickly though, as it now acts normally (easy disassembly), while making ejection perfect. Not sure whether this could also solve issues caused by sticky extractors (my extractor had loosened up by the time I installed this), but it might?

3) I had feeding problems, rounds stopping on feed ramp. Feed ramp itself was smooth. Replaced mag springs with Wolff +10%. Problem solved, at least with no tac light attached. I’m convinced I had weak mag springs out of the box, as the Wolff springs feel more than 10% stronger. The fact that the addition of a TLR-1 light exacerbated the feeding stoppages suggests that indeed the mag springs were too weak to match .40 slide speed, even with the new dual spring (tac light adds mass hence inertia to frame, increasing speed of slide relative to frame). After the spring switch, no feeding problems with or without light EXCEPT when using Federal 180-grain HSTs, which sometimes nosedive when the light is attached (no probs with no light). Shorter rounds (including 165-grain HSTs, 135-grain Rangers, 165-grain EFMJs) seem to feed fine with the light attached, further testing needed to confirm.

So, for feeding and ejection problems with my G23 Gen4, the fixes were:

1) Mag springs (to fix feeding issues),
2) Loosen up extractor (to fix FTEs),
3) Add White Sound Defense HRED to completely fix ejection,
4) Use shorter OAL rounds for reliable function with tac light attached.

Personally, I like the Gen4 updates and am glad mine seems to be working. If White Sound Defense has a legit fix for the infamous Gen4 extraction issues, I hope the word gets out there. Seems like an easier fix than experimenting with different generation extractors. Maybe Glock should buy the design. . . .

LittleLebowski
04-09-2011, 05:45 PM
Very good writeup, ADK. Food for thought.

VolGrad
04-09-2011, 07:17 PM
Very good writeup, ADK. Food for thought.

I agree. Good writeup .... BUT .... all that shouldn't be necessary for the gun to run right out of the box. It just shouldn't. People poo-poo the 1911 all the time for having to such nits and picks as you just wrote about, swapping out parts and trying this or that to get it going.

LittleLebowski
04-09-2011, 07:24 PM
I agree. Good writeup .... BUT .... all that shouldn't be necessary for the gun to run right out of the box. It just shouldn't. People poo-poo the 1911 all the time for having to such nits and picks as you just wrote about, swapping out parts and trying this or that to get it going.

True but most 1911s don't run as well as a Gen4 Glock in my experience.

Hopefully Glock will pay attention and make things right. This is ridiculous.

ADK
04-09-2011, 08:32 PM
It "shouldn't be" like this, but point me to a gun manufacturer (or, I surmise, any manufacturer of anything--I'm guessing) that has stayed on top indefinitely. A manufacturer does something well and does well with it (e.g. Colt with the revolver, S&W with the DA revolver, Beretta with the wondernine, Glock with the polymer "DAO" service gun), then competition and/or technology catches up and forces change, and the result doesn't live up to the established standard. Glock found a winning formula and stuck to it closely, and did remarkably well. Then competitors (HK, Walther, S&W, etc.) started to make inroads, forcing changes. Maybe (just speculating), as Glock started to lose market share (or predicted such), they had to a) come up with a "me too" (Gen4) and b) increase profit margins (farming out some parts, reducing quality control, etc.).
At any rate, I'm not suggesting the "death of Glock" here. Just saying there's a lot of precedence (most recently, SIG) for gun manufacturers to eventually lose their reputations for top quality/trend setting/market lead. I believe Todd has an article at pistol-training.com that discusses why no gun manufacturer is perfect and how competitive pressure has affected quality standards.

I didn't expect my G23 Gen4 to have such problems, especially as most of the Gen4 problems seemed to come up in the 9mms b/c the Gen4 was supposedly optimized for the .40 (tighter lockup, dual springs, etc.). However,

a) For me, the Gen4 features are real improvements that greatly affect comfort and shootability, and
b) The simplicity of the Glock design in this case allowed me to (again, check with me after 10,000 rounds!) correct things easily relative to what might be required for most other designs. I'm not a gunsmith and actually have never tinkered with anything mechanical before, and I have no tools nor workshop (just a GlockTool and kitchen table--well, and a sight pusher). So although I was disappointed with out-of-box performance, I respect the design insofar as I have not had to send it off for correction (yet).

IF most Glock problems can be corrected by spring swaps and maybe one part swap that can be done by anyone, I think that still places it ahead of most designs these days. JMO.

VolGrad
04-10-2011, 08:45 AM
True but most 1911s don't run as well as a Gen4 Glock in my experience.

Hopefully Glock will pay attention and make things right. This is ridiculous.

I agree with you on this too LittleL but there are lots of folks like me that are the exact opposite. My experience with about 5-6 different 1911s has been very positive (WRT reliability) compared to my experience with a Gen4 GLOCK. It doesn't take too many folks like that to take a bite out of GLOCK's wallet.

So long as they keep making Gen3 guns indefinitely I'm good-to-go.

KeeFus
04-10-2011, 08:56 AM
My Gen 3 Glock was made in 2009 and I have had zero issues. My cousin is wanting to buy a new one but I have advised him to find a Gen 3 because of all the issues with the Gen 4. I have yet to find a good reason for Glock to change the 17 or 19 from the Gen 3 versions, especially the guide rod/spring. These were the best platforms they had. Obviously the .40 needed some work...I just think they short stroked themselves by trying to fix an issue across the board when there wasn't one with the 17 & 19.

ADK
04-10-2011, 09:08 AM
I'm also interested in hearing more about LWD's extractors. While my OEM extractor is currently functional, I was going to get spares/backups for critical parts and noticed that LWD's can be had for cheaper than Glock's.

Do you have any info re: how LWD's are different? Their website just says they're "better."
Manufacturing method (MIM like Glock's is rumored to be)?
Tolerances?
Design? (I believe you mentioned a slightly different hook angle.)
Better finished?

Based on stuff I've read online, it sounds like LWD's other attempts to improve on Glock's designs (e.g. barrels and feed ramps) can get mixed results depending on the individual gun. Would appreciate more data re: performance as well as mfg details.

Thanks!

PatrickL
04-10-2011, 08:44 PM
LWD extractor update:

Went today to range with LWD extractor installed in G19 Gen 4. Came with 0-4 RSA installed. Shot 375 rounds with no failures as usual. Past experience with Glock OEM "2" extractor in this pistol was sporadic ejections with shells in the face and top of head 2 to 4 times per magazine. I always shoot with 10 rounds in magazine. Used a combination of 115 WWB, Federal Champion, and UMC for target practice.

After LWD extractor install, shells to face down to 0 to 1 per magazine of 10 rounds. I can still see extractions are weak at times with some sporadic ejections. Definitely not as bad as before but not 100% resolved in my case. I will live with the LWD extractor and feel more comfortable with it. I enjoyed shooting today rather than worrying about getting hit in the face. Take it for what it's worth.

Just to make things interesting. I did install a brand new Glock LCI extractor with "3" marking, plunger, spring, and SLB. Results weren't any better than before, therefore I just reinstalled the LWD extractor with the Glock extractor parts that came with the pistol. LWD extractor doesn't have physical dip in middle like the Glock version as seen in other posts.

I'll try a few more range sessions to validate performance, but things are a little better although not perfect.

ADK
04-10-2011, 09:10 PM
Strongly recommend you try the White Sound Defense extractor depressor assembly, referenced in earlier post. Don't most 1911 extraction/ejection problems involve extractor tension, as opposed to "bad" extractors? And the extractor depressor assembly regulates a Glock's extractor tension, right? (That's a real question--I know nothing about 1911's besides what I've read.)
Not to compare Gen4's to 1911s yet again. . . .
Possibly the different slide speed of the Gen4's affects the effectiveness of the stock extractor depressor assembly?

JV_
04-11-2011, 10:24 AM
Update for me: My gun doesn't have any extraction issues, with any of the extractors I've tried since the original one gave me problems. Ejections are another story, I suffered 6 stove pipes today (350 round session), 3 while I was shooting and 3 while another guy was shooting.

I hope the new recoil spring helps.

ToddG
04-11-2011, 10:54 AM
The stovepipe can certainly be related to the extractor. Is it still the Lone Wolf extractor in your gun?

JV_
04-11-2011, 11:06 AM
The stovepipe can certainly be related to the extractor. Is it still the Lone Wolf extractor in your gun?

It happens with both the #4 and LW extractor, it doesn't make a difference. The #4 is back in the gun.

I *THINK* it's recoil spring related because we can duplicate the issue with very very light thumb pressure on the slide. It's almost like it barely works with the 04 spring and the AE 124 ... the marginally reduced slide velocity pushes it over the edge.

3-7-77
04-11-2011, 05:57 PM
I wonder if using a OEM Gen3 recoil spring assembly by using this http://www.brownells.com/1/1/115801-glock-gen-4-recoil-conversion-insert-gen-4-recoil-conversion-insert-glockparts-com.html or a factory weight assembly like this
http://www.glockmeister.com/Glockmeister-Stainless-Steel-Recoil-Assembly-For-Gen-4-G19-23-and-32/productinfo/G4SS19CS/
would make a difference. If nothing else, I think running an OEM Gen3 recoil spring by use of the washer from Brownells might help one rule out the extractor as the culprit. Just a thought.

JV_
04-11-2011, 05:59 PM
http://www.glockmeister.com/Glockmeister-Stainless-Steel-Recoil-Assembly-For-Gen-4-G19-23-and-32/productinfo/G4SS19CS/
would make a difference.

I got mine in the mail today, I'll test it Wed night.

3-7-77
04-11-2011, 06:02 PM
I got mine in the mail today, I'll test it Wed night.

One step ahead of me ;) I know of a member on M4C who fixed his Gen4 G17 issues by going to one, curious to see if this fixes yours as well. I look forward to your report.

JV_
04-13-2011, 08:39 PM
My forehead is liking the new recoil spring. I only had one or two, out of 300'ish, come back at me. No stovepipes or FTEx issues.

So far so good, but one range session isn't enough to declare victory.

JV_
04-14-2011, 06:18 AM
If this recoil spring ends up being the fix, I'll reinstall the original extractor and keep on testing.

Prdator
04-17-2011, 08:15 AM
Any update to this?

And how does the new recoil spring compare to the stock one as far as Recoil goes?

JV_
04-17-2011, 10:08 AM
Any update to this?

And how does the new recoil spring compare to the stock one as far as Recoil goes?

It gave a consistent ejection for 1 hundred rounds (ish), then went back to inconsistent. The gun was stripped clean before the install ... so there was more than one change. Recoil seems similar.

I will have a 15lb spring, 3# lighter than the 18# ISMI, on order. It should be here before Wednesday.

JV_
04-18-2011, 11:23 AM
801 rounds on the new recoil spring (18#) and no problems.

We'll see if that 15# spring will clean up the ejection pattern. I'm hopeful the problems are behind me.

JV_
04-21-2011, 06:34 PM
I haven't tried the 15# spring .... but I'm almost done with a 2000 round challenge (trouble free). I should have it finished up on Monday.

bmg
04-24-2011, 01:11 PM
I haven't tried the 15# spring .... but I'm almost done with a 2000 round challenge (trouble free). I should have it finished up on Monday.

I'm looking forward to your report on how that combination works out for you.

JV_
04-25-2011, 09:56 AM
I was going to finish the 2000 round challenge before trying the 15# spring, and then the gun had another stovepipe this AM. The 15# spring feels heavier than my worn in 18# spring, so I opted to pass on it. I may send it back to Glock ... but I'm also considering a Gen 3 replacement upper.

I'm putting the 19 in the back of the safe for now and plan to shoot my 17 EXO for the near term.

JM Campbell
04-25-2011, 10:32 AM
I'm sorry to hear of all the problems and let downs to the "fixes" so far JV.

I really wish this Glock era of malfunction ends soon, it is/was a very viable platform for ccw and duty carry. I still want a Gen 4 G19 but will wait quite some time before I purchase one.

I believe Glockmeister carries some Gen3 uppers and hope the 2/300 upper replacement fixes all of the problems. I just wish the situation didn't regulate that out come for you.

With all these failures with the Gen 4 I wonder the actual failure count in LEO aplications and what Glock is doing to fix it, and never the less what said LEO departments are doing (dumping the guns for previous Generation or changing platforms/manufactures).

JV_
04-25-2011, 10:44 AM
I'm sorry to hear of all the problems and let downs to the "fixes" so far JV. Thanks. It's disappointing for sure. Here is a short list of everything I've tried:

04 Spring
Gen 3 type recoil spring - Glockmeister Captured Rod with 18# Spring
Looser fitting extractor
New Ejector (included in a new trigger housing)
Non LCI spring bearing to increase extractor tension
New Extractor Spring


I believe Glockmeister carries some Gen3 uppers and hope the 2/300 upper replacement fixes all of the problems.I was just running the numbers on how much I'd lose on a trade (fully disclosed of course) vs. replacing the slide. I've also toyed with the idea of a new slide to play around with an RDS.

I'd really like to get some data on Gen 4 guns with 5000+ rounds down the pipe. All of these forum posts about "it's running great" and they have 2 or 3 digit round counts don't really add valuable data points. Mine ran great too, until it didn't (@4400 rounds). The other guns might just be waiting to do the same.

ToddG
04-25-2011, 01:48 PM
I'm putting the 19 in the back of the safe

Send it to Glock. Document all the problems you've had, all the fixes you've tried. Be smart, put everything back exactly as it came from the factory and put another 2-300 rounds through it to see if it has any stoppages "stock."

Make Glock fix it or replace it. The more people who drop unreliable gen4 9mm pistols on Glock's doorstep, the sooner they'll find a real solution.

JHC
04-25-2011, 02:06 PM
I'd really like to get some data on Gen 4 guns with 5000+ rounds down the pipe. All of these forum posts about "it's running great" and they have 2 or 3 digit round counts don't really add valuable data points. Mine ran great too, until it didn't (@4400 rounds). The other guns might just be waiting to do the same.

+1 to what TLG just posted.

JV - what info can I provide you about a Gen 4 G17 with 7K rds?

This gun has not had a stoppage yet and my avatar is of the 1.5" group it printed with 147 grain Ranger.
My Gen 4 G19 has but 3445 rds so far but likewise, no stoppages.

We could collect the same data set as you define it from a few GT regulars that have run their guns up double what I have on mine.

Joe

JV_
04-25-2011, 05:09 PM
The reason I'm hesitant to send it back is because I don't think they have a fix. I'll get my gun back exactly how I sent it, but my wallet will be $45 lighter.

JHC - I'm not sure what I really want in terms of reliability numbers, I'm just frustrated with the lack of trouble free higher round count Gen 4s. Mine only at 6500.

I want the reliability of my P30 in my Gen4.

ToddG
04-25-2011, 05:19 PM
The reason I'm hesitant to send it back is because I don't think they have a fix. I'll get my gun back exactly how I sent it, but my wallet will be $45 lighter.

Which is a fraction what you've invested so far in parts, time, and test ammo.

Spend $45 or let your $450 investment in a pistol go to waste...

JV_
04-25-2011, 05:51 PM
Thanks, I appreciate the sanity check.


Which is a fraction what you've invested so far in parts, time, and test ammo.I have about $70 in parts trying to diagnose/fix it. Ammo and time isn't a big deal. I'd be shooting something, and it clearly wasn't wasted - changing guns to the Exo 17 was almost seamless.

JHC
04-25-2011, 06:08 PM
The reason I'm hesitant to send it back is because I don't think they have a fix. I'll get my gun back exactly how I sent it, but my wallet will be $45 lighter.

JHC - I'm not sure what I really want in terms of reliability numbers, I'm just frustrated with the lack of trouble free higher round count Gen 4s. Mine only at 6500.

I want the reliability of my P30 in my Gen4.

I recall exactly ONE GT'er who reported getting a new gun last year (Gen 4 G19 from memory) from Mother Glock. ;)
In just a couple hundred rounds, the top barrel hood was polished silver for a solid 1/8th to 1/4" band. IMO that pointed to something way out of wack, no spring or ejector switch would cure. Their CS is pretty good in my experience (only with the free inspect and upgrade service) and from most reports. That said, one should be respectfully very demanding. With your background including presence here, I think it's worth working up their food chain.

jslaker
04-25-2011, 06:55 PM
In just a couple hundred rounds, the top barrel hood was polished silver for a solid 1/8th to 1/4" band. IMO that pointed to something way out of wack

Or Glock has outsourced to SIG. :cool:

bmg
04-26-2011, 01:52 AM
Strongly recommend you try the White Sound Defense extractor depressor assembly, referenced in earlier post. Don't most 1911 extraction/ejection problems involve extractor tension, as opposed to "bad" extractors? And the extractor depressor assembly regulates a Glock's extractor tension, right? (That's a real question--I know nothing about 1911's besides what I've read.)
Not to compare Gen4's to 1911s yet again. . . .
Possibly the different slide speed of the Gen4's affects the effectiveness of the stock extractor depressor assembly?

I think I'm going to try one of these...the principle seems sound. It's obvious the current glock extractor depressor system is going to give erratic pressure on the back of the extractor during slide deceleration. Has this been out very long? I'd never heard of it until ADK's post.

JV_
04-26-2011, 05:27 AM
Just a gentle reminder: If you have a good one, support your local FFL. ;)

It turns out that when you buy a gun through my shop, if/when it needs to go back for service, they cover the shipping (both ways if needed). I could have saved $75 buying this gun online and doing a transfer, I'm glad I didn't.

GJM
04-26-2011, 07:25 AM
Maybe a dumb question, but can you put a Gen 3 upper on a Gen 4 lower?

PatrickL
04-26-2011, 07:45 PM
I think I'm going to try one of these...the principle seems sound. It's obvious the current glock extractor depressor system is going to give erratic pressure on the back of the extractor during slide deceleration. Has this been out very long? I'd never heard of it until ADK's post.

Let us know how that one works out for you. I really would like to find out your results.

I am still running the LWD extractor in my Gen4 19. Shells to the face are indeed better after a few range sessions. Usually shoot 300 to 450 rounds per session. Last session I had 3 shells to the head out of 300+ rounds. This has indeed been a better setup for me compared to the Glock extractor set up.

Having said that, I am not saying that this is a fix by any means. I am just expressing my experience with the LWD setup. I have had no jams with any type of ammunition including weak target ammo. I am currently at 1600+ rounds on the pistol. Not a real high round count compared to other members, but not extremely low either.

A while back, I did try out the 18# Glockmeister Steel RSA. I should correct myself earlier when I said I had no jams. I had several with this RSA. I took it out and put back the 04 glock RSA with no issues.

Ultimately, I just wanted to share my experience, and I find this post very informative. Keep contributing.

Thanks

Super J
04-27-2011, 02:58 PM
LL - Just to clarify: I don't know that the number on the extractor is actually a version/iteration number. It could be a number to aid in the identification the subcontractor who made it, or something else.

An friend of mine, an Advanced Glock Armorer, mentioned that they don't make extractors, locking blocks and springs.

I am a Glock armorer and came across a troubled Gen 4 19 that was having feeding/extraction problems. I thought one of the issues might have been the extractor and called Glock. The replacement extractor that I received could not be installed as it did not fit. I called back and they sent 4 replacement extractors. Each extractor had a different number so I inquired as to the number designation and was informed that the numbering is associated with the batches and is not a part designation number.

As for that Gen 4 19, I changed the recoil spring, extractor, trigger housing/ejector...and it still was acting up. The owner sent it back to Glock for them to look it over as it is above my pay grade.

LittleLebowski
04-27-2011, 03:10 PM
What I don't get is that when I called Glock and explained my malfunctions every few hundred rounds on my Gen4 G19, the guy I talked to clearly delineated between #3 and #4 recoil springs as different iterations.

It may be as simple as extractors being numbered according to batch because Glock doesn't believe they could possibly be faulty and the recoil springs actually are different iterations, differentiated by the number stamp.

ToddG
04-27-2011, 03:12 PM
The recoil assembly numbers are version numbers. Different numbers indicate a purposely different spring.

The extractor numbers appear to be mold identifiers and in theory all should be identical regardless of number.

PatrickL
05-18-2011, 10:36 PM
JV, how are things with your g19 gen4? Better results?

fuse
05-19-2011, 12:34 AM
JV, how are things with your g19 gen4? Better results?

I think he was tired of being an unpaid beta tester.

JV_
05-19-2011, 05:14 AM
JV, how are things with your g19 gen4? Better results?

I sent it back to Glock. I'm now shooting a Gen3 17.

Chefdog
05-19-2011, 02:51 PM
I sent it back to Glock. I'm now shooting a Gen3 17.

Does this seem to be the general consensus? I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger on a new g19 after following the issues you guys are having. I'd prefer the gen4, but will buy the gen3 if there's significantly better odds of avoiding problems. Is gen3 still the way to go even considering the extractor change and some reports of issues with them? :confused:

LittleLebowski
05-19-2011, 03:18 PM
I'd take a Gen3 over a Gen4 anyday.

JV_
05-19-2011, 03:22 PM
Me too

Sent using Tapatalk.

LittleLebowski
05-19-2011, 03:54 PM
I believe that JV is having very good luck with an EXO Gen3 gun.

JV_
05-19-2011, 04:06 PM
Yea, I'm shooting an EXO 17 now.

I've had a couple of early lock backs with a Vickers release and an extended release. I haven't been able to narrow it down yet because I have a busted weak hand trigger finger.

I've found that after jamming the dirty gun in to my holster a few hundred times, the residue on the muzzle is difficult to remove. Almost like it's pushed in to the finish. Other than that, it's easy to clean.

I like that the EXO guns have a lifetime warranty, but still wish it was black.

JM Campbell
05-19-2011, 04:10 PM
Yea, I'm shooting an EXO 17 now.

I've had a couple of early lock backs with a Vickers release and an extended release. I haven't been able to narrow it down yet because I have a busted weak hand trigger finger.

I've found that after jamming the dirty gun in to my holster a few hundred times, the residue on the muzzle is difficult to remove. Almost like it's pushed in to the finish. Other than that, it's easy to clean.

I like that the EXO guns have a lifetime warranty, but still wish it was black.

IIRC on M4C there was gent that had a out of spec spring for the Vickers set up. He contacted Tango and had a new spring shipped out to him.

Hope it helps.

JV_
05-19-2011, 04:40 PM
IIRC on M4C there was gent that had a out of spec spring for the Vickers set up. He contacted Tango and had a new spring shipped out to him.Sounds like his CS experience with TD was better than mine. I contacted them about another issue and I got a "it's within spec" canned answer ... but they didn't even measure it! I should have accepted the offer for a refund, but all I really wanted was a better working copy. I was about to ask them to inspect it, but I realized that if they were willing to declare it OK without physically looking at it, they probably wouldn't have inspected it anyway. I'll just wait a year or two before buying another, I have a feeling it'll be slightly different.

For the early locking back issue, I'm not 100% convinced it's the slide stop. It may very well be me.

JHC
05-19-2011, 06:22 PM
I followed the M4C thread. Don't you know the part is in spec, but the holes in your Glocks are out of spec? ;) TD posted to that effect themselves. Don't know. Don't measure them. But having had such good results with the stock setup I've lost all interest in trying that slide release.

JV_
05-19-2011, 06:25 PM
yep, if the factory stop is a drop in part, the aftermarket ones should be too.

Sent using Tapatalk.

JM Campbell
05-20-2011, 06:47 AM
Lol, I don't think I got past the first page On that thread if it grew more. I thought the problem was resolved after they offered to ship out a replacement.

JV with all these problems, why not switch over (back if it applies) to the P30? With your current "handicap" ;) it just might be beneficial to your situation.
Garanted I'm not in your situation but in my limited experience I prefer the P30 over the Glocks due to the controls (I have a P30LS so the slide stop has never been a issue with grip interference).

It just might be the best "mouse trap" for you right now.

ETA: Everyone's experience may vary from mine, so please take it with a grain of salt.

JV_
05-20-2011, 07:03 AM
I just shoot Glocks better, but I wish I didn't!

My best 7Y P30 Dot Torture was 4 points less than my first DT after switching back to a Glock. What I desperately need to do is master one system and quit changing stuff. I feel like it's holding me back.

JHC
05-20-2011, 08:59 AM
I just shoot Glocks better, but I wish I didn't!

.

+1 except I'm glad I do; for the cost of each. Actually I've only got 50 rds through a rental P30 and I thought it was a swell pistol and all but not exceptional. But I've got a few really accurate Glocks and they all feel like cybergenic extensions of my arms in shooting and handling. BUT, when circumstances allow I don't want to get much older before giving a HK pistol an extended run so I'd like to work a P30 in later this year.

NGCSUGrad09
05-20-2011, 09:08 AM
What I desperately need to do is master one system and quit changing stuff. I feel like it's holding me back.

This would be the ticket..

Chefdog
05-20-2011, 10:17 AM
I'd take a Gen3 over a Gen4 anyday.


Me too

I appreciate the opinions, its nice to get advice from people with real 1st hand experience. Although I never thought there'd be much to worry about when picking up a Glock!

PatrickL
05-23-2011, 09:31 PM
I sent it back to Glock. I'm now shooting a Gen3 17.

Let us know if Glock resolves your issues. Hopefully they will.

bmg
05-31-2011, 10:41 PM
I just started to do a bit of dry firing with my gen4 G19 when the slide fell off. So far I haven't found the slide lock, but did find the spring. I assume the gen3 and gen4 slide locks are the same, but I've heard the gen4 slide lock springs are different, and I can't find a gen4 slide lock spring. Any suggestions before I try to get replacements from Glock, which will probably take forever? I'd prefer to just order from glockmeister or brownells, but I'm not seeing a gen4 spring at either. BTW, the G19 was test fired March 2011, so it's pretty much current production and the round count is only about 400.

JV_
06-01-2011, 05:35 AM
I use the same slide lock spring in my Gen4 19 as my Gen3 19.

Brownells has the springs and lock.

Magsz
06-03-2011, 04:25 PM
BMG,

Could you give a little more information on your issue?

If im reading this right i am experiencing the same thing.

If i tap the magazine and then rack the slide i can physically cause the slide to jump over the slide lock/takedown lever and off of the frame.

Ive done this on three Gen 4 G19's now.

JHC
06-03-2011, 05:38 PM
Yes more on this. Magz does this only occur in dry fire? (although I guess you'd be slide locked if you fully racked the slide with an empty mag)

bmg
06-04-2011, 03:10 PM
My problem was a bit different...I'm pretty sure the slide lock broke and was lost, as I've never been able to find it. I did find the slide lock spring and it looked fine.

I just received a couple of slide locks and a new spring from Brownells. The gen4 spring is definitely different from the one everyone still seems to sell, but it looks like the old spring would probably work. The ~45 degree angled section is longer on the gen 4, which is needed since the long part of the spring that runs back along the bottom of the frame isn't angled up on the gen4 like it is on the standard spring. I'm guessing it sits lower in the frame due to the larger diameter recoil spring?

Check which type you have Magsz. I should have tried to get a comparison picture before I reinstalled the gen4 slide lock spring, but forgot. If needed I can disassemble the G19. It's possible the older type spring could get partly pushed down by the end of the recoil spring.

ETA: I checked my G4 G17 as well as gen2 and gen 3 G17's and G19's. On both the gen2 and gen3's the slide stop spring is set down into the frame far enough that the end of the recoil spring assembly can never touch it. On my gen4 G17 the spring angles up such that I can tell from looking at it that the bottom back end of the recoil spring rod has been rubbing on it, and thus pressing it down. When I press it down the slide stop drops down slightly, so I'd think that could be a problem with the gen4 G17's. The spring on my gen4 G19 doesn't do that, but it's test fire date was only a couple of months ago, so perhaps Glock recently changed the spring to avoid the problem Magsz is seeing? I can really see how the old spring could cause a problem, since the gen4 recoil spring assembly would push down on horizontal section that's above the bottom of the frame. Just another stupid side effect of changing to the larger diameter recoil spring assembly.

Magsz
06-04-2011, 11:05 PM
Very interesting....

All of the gen 4's that ive putzed around with were produced between August 2010 and November 2010. I havent tried this on any 2011 production guns.

JHC, the first time this ever happened was during live fire. I actually caused the slide to pop over a loaded magazine and off of the frame. Yes..we were all extremely surprised. Ive never seen this happen on a Glock until my dumb ass made it happen. Not to mention, we couldnt figure out how the hell it went OVER the magazine.

Situation ran like this:

Insert loaded magazine into gun.
Rack slide to chamber round.
Press checked loaded round and visually inspected chambered round.
Holstered.

Up command, pressed trigger...Click.
Tap
Rack

WTF MATE?!

If i can find the picture i will post it. To say we were surprised is an understatement.

The manager at my local range sells a ton of Glocks and shoots his own quite a bit. He confirmed that he has also seen this issue with the Gen 4's although he did not specify if it was relegated to only the 19's.

davebee456
06-06-2011, 11:38 AM
I had replaced my glock 19 and 26 i sold 3 yrs ago, with Gen 3's last year.
my 19 is a shiny finish slide and new dipped extractor and my g26 is a new matte style slide (gen 4) grey finish slide and new style dipped extractor,
Has anyone found a replacement for the extractor like the Lone Wolf??
or has glock fixed this issue of ftf's and fte's with a new extractor part

JV_
06-06-2011, 11:46 AM
Has anyone found a replacement for the extractor like the Lone Wolf??I think it's a mistake to assume the problem is limited to the extractor, there could be more than one problem at work here.

I have an EXO'd 17, with the dip extractor, and it's running fine.

LittleLebowski
06-17-2011, 04:42 PM
Just about 400 flawless rds of WWB through my HRED equipped #4 sprung Gen4 G19 today at the Vickers advanced class. Very pleased.

GearScout
06-19-2011, 02:10 AM
but I've heard the gen4 slide lock springs are different, and I can't find a gen4 slide lock spring.

There is a brand new slide lock spring for the Gen4 19. My gun was at Glock this week and they replaced the original (Dec '10) spring with one that looked like it has a longer arm. I asked why they were replacing it since I had no slide locking issues and they told me it was to remedy a rare issue with slides falling off frames.

The spring may have already been installed in the latest production pistols, but it's just getting to the US as a replacement part. You might call them up and tell them you've got a flying slide. They might just send you the spring.

Spr1
06-19-2011, 06:32 PM
Wow. And now slide lock spring issues also. I hope they can right the ship.

GearScout
06-24-2011, 01:31 PM
My Bad- it seems I got some bad gouge and spoke too soon.

There is no new slide lock spring. There is a difference between the stock Gen3 and the stock Gen4 slide lock springs, there is no "updated" Gen4 slide lock spring. Apparently, my Gen4 17 somehow had a Gen3 slide lock spring installed and they swapped it out for the correct part.

Since it happened to me, there's a chance that others may have a Gen3 slide lock spring installed in their Gen4 guns which could cause a flying slide, though I never encountered it. I also mentioned Glock might send you a spring; after speaking with them it turns out they won't. They'll want the gun in-house to perform a repair.

Here's a photo of the Gen4 (top) and Gen3 springs side-by-side for reference:
73


There is a brand new slide lock spring for the Gen4 19. My gun was at Glock this week and they replaced the original (Dec '10) spring with one that looked like it has a longer arm. I asked why they were replacing it since I had no slide locking issues and they told me it was to remedy a rare issue with slides falling off frames.

The spring may have already been installed in the latest production pistols, but it's just getting to the US as a replacement part. You might call them up and tell them you've got a flying slide. They might just send you the spring.

MikeO
06-24-2011, 06:57 PM
This gets better n better... in 2011, Glocks start runnin' like 1911s. :p

Reminds me of a few yrs ago when the Phase 3 gremlin popped up (TLG saw one of them too). Glock had trailers at the NYPD range "fixing" all their slides to keep 'em happy. Everybody else was SOOL. Was their ever a real problem identified and fixed, or did it just fade away?

Or the rear frame rail breakage problem fixed w a ucall (since there was no recall). The one where you called Glock to see if your frame was in the suspect range, and if it was, you sent it in for a replacement. If you did not know to call and ask, your frame did not get replaced.

If past is prologue, Glock will do something eventually for some but not all until the problem is fixed or fades away...

JHC
06-24-2011, 08:06 PM
This gets better n better... in 2011, Glocks start runnin' like 1911s. :p

Reminds me of a few yrs ago when the Phase 3 gremlin popped up (TLG saw one of them too). Glock had trailers at the NYPD range "fixing" all their slides to keep 'em happy. Everybody else was SOOL. Was their ever a real problem identified and fixed, or did it just fade away?

Or the rear frame rail breakage problem fixed w a ucall (since there was no recall). The one where you called Glock to see if your frame was in the suspect range, and if it was, you sent it in for a replacement. If you did not know to call and ask, your frame did not get replaced.

If past is prologue, Glock will do something eventually for some but not all until the problem is fixed or fades away...

I think the cause of that NYPD thing was tolerance stack off the chain from the NYPlusPlus whatever trigger they were running. I thought that the most viable theory from that 10 mile wide swath of bandwidth that went into the topic so many years ago.

ToddG
06-24-2011, 09:49 PM
I had a G19 from that era and it suffered almost 30 stoppages in a short period of time (I want to say it was 3-4,000) rounds. The gun most definitely did not have the NY2 trigger spring in it. Glock's CNC machine wasn't slicing chunks of steel off the slide when a simple spring change would have sufficed.

MikeO
06-25-2011, 10:25 AM
Yep, more to it than that. Guns w the standard setup were doing it in numerous places (some w the local law here too). Whatever it was, or wasn't, it seems to have come and gone.

The rear frame rail prob, and how Glock handled it, was interesting. The local sheriffs dept had 4 new Glocks (of 250) break during initial Q fire w them. Glock said send the broken guns in as they break, we will replace them. Turns out they were telling lottsa folks that, as by then it was a known prob to Glock they were trying to keep under wraps. The sheriff pulled all the guns, told Glock they would replace them all ASAP, told his guys n gals to carry something else until they got the replacements. Then he called the local news, it hit the net, and then Glock had the ucall.

JV_
07-02-2011, 07:48 AM
The gun is back from GA. I hear they've replaced some parts and given it a clean bill of health. I'll verify what was replaced. There's no guarantee I'll be taking it home, I may trade it for a Gen3.

PatrickL
07-03-2011, 11:16 PM
The gun is back from GA. I hear they've replaced some parts and given it a clean bill of health. I'll verify what was replaced. There's no guarantee I'll be taking it home, I may trade it for a Gen3.

Let us know how it works out for you. Be interesting to know what they found, if anything, and what they replaced.

JV_
07-05-2011, 10:11 AM
The sheet from Glock states:

INSPECTED
REPLACED PARTS
MEETS FACTORY SPECS
TESTED OK.

A quick look shows they replaced the recoil spring, they changed it from an 04 to an 042 spring. The extractor was also replaced, it was now marked with a 3. The extractor finish also looked a tad more glossy and was loose fitting, like an older Gen3. The ejector looked like the same one, a standard 336 marked ejector.

I traded the gun for a 2011 Gen3 19.

JM Campbell
07-05-2011, 11:38 AM
Hopefully the gen3 is gtg and the issues don't arise with it.

Good luck sir.

PatrickL
07-05-2011, 04:40 PM
The sheet from Glock states:

INSPECTED
REPLACED PARTS
MEETS FACTORY SPECS
TESTED OK.

A quick look shows they replaced the recoil spring, they changed it from an 04 to an 042 spring. The extractor was also replaced, it was now marked with a 3. The extractor finish also looked a tad more glossy and was loose fitting, like an older Gen3. The ejector looked like the same one, a standard 336 marked ejector.

I traded the gun for a 2011 Gen3 19.

Well I suppose you won't have to worry about the problems anymore. It's interesting that there is now an 042 spring like you stated. That's news to me. I have seen the 3-marked extractor. Did you get a chance to fire it when you got it back? Just wanted to see if there were differences.

JV_
07-05-2011, 04:43 PM
Did you get a chance to fire it when you got it back?

I didn't take the gun home. My local shop shipped it out and received it from Glock.

PatrickL
07-05-2011, 04:48 PM
I didn't take the gun home. My local shop shipped it out and received it from Glock.

No worries. Thanks for your input. Good luck with your gen 3.

Failure2Stop
07-06-2011, 07:58 AM
This gets better n better... in 2011, Glocks start runnin' like 1911s. :p


I apologise for adding nothing to the conversation, but this is priceless.

Magsz
07-06-2011, 09:14 PM
9 Stovepipes today out of 200 rounds.

I no longer trust the gun and will not carry it.

150 WWB
50 assorted tula and federal 115 grain 9mm.

I am running an 04 spring, negative connector and that it is.

All stovepipes were more like failures to eject as the casing was facing forward in all instances. There is something wrong with the extractor in my gun, it is simply not grabbing the cases the way it should be to bring them to the ejector.

Blech...im going to call glock tomorrow and send the damned thing back.

PatrickL
07-06-2011, 10:18 PM
9 Stovepipes today out of 200 rounds.

I no longer trust the gun and will not carry it.

150 WWB
50 assorted tula and federal 115 grain 9mm.

I am running an 04 spring, negative connector and that it is.

All stovepipes were more like failures to eject as the casing was facing forward in all instances. There is something wrong with the extractor in my gun, it is simply not grabbing the cases the way it should be to bring them to the ejector.

Blech...im going to call glock tomorrow and send the damned thing back.

Sorry to hear of your issue. Seems to be quite a bit of these issues. I have been shooting my Glock 19 Gen 4 with no issues other than erratic ejections which would hit me on top of the head when I 1st started shooting it. However, the biggest change came when I replaced the Glock extractor with a Lone Wolf extractor. Since then no issues. Up to 2000+ rounds using 115 WWB, Federal Champion, and UMC. The only other changes I made is that I do not use the ambicut magazines. I purchased a couple of Glock 19 (non-ambicut) magazines with a #9 follower. I replaced the springs with Wolff magazine springs. The gun came with an 04 spring with a test fire date of February 2011 I believe. I don't believe the magazine would make a difference but those are the differences since I purchased it. Hope some of this helps.

Magsz
07-06-2011, 11:59 PM
Pat,

Im going to try a LW extractor before i send it back just for shits and giggles.

I cleaned out my extractor and firing pin safety plunger channels this evening and there was so much brass gunk in there i was disgusted. Ive never actually had a gun this "dirty" despite running M&P's for 10k rounds between field strips.

I ascribe to the "lube more often than clean" party.

I will report back when ive tried the LWD extractor but i want to give it a fair shake, ie at least 1k rounds.

PatrickL
07-07-2011, 06:24 PM
Pat,

Im going to try a LW extractor before i send it back just for shits and giggles.

I cleaned out my extractor and firing pin safety plunger channels this evening and there was so much brass gunk in there i was disgusted. Ive never actually had a gun this "dirty" despite running M&P's for 10k rounds between field strips.

I ascribe to the "lube more often than clean" party.

I will report back when ive tried the LWD extractor but i want to give it a fair shake, ie at least 1k rounds.

Good luck with the LWD extractor. I too had to break down the slide and clean it thoroughly when I noticed the erratic issue on mine. Hopefully that will help out in your case as well. I have to say it is unfortunate having to go to these lengths in order to get a pistol working reliably. There are some obvious issues but it's really hard to say exactly what the cause is. I have been following several threads across several different forums to see if there is a definitive resolution, but none that I have come across as of yet. The following is pretty interesting and seems similar to your situation...

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1346797&page=16

Let us know how things work out.

JV_
09-25-2011, 05:14 PM
Side note: My 2010 EXO'd Gen3 17 is now spitting brass in my face. It took almost 6.5K to start showing the problem, where my Gen4 19 only took 4.4K. It has the "dip" extractor. I'll be changing it out shortly.

Too bad I don't have any EXO'd extractors, black will have to do. Good thing I don't care about looks.

fuse
09-25-2011, 05:42 PM
Have you tried the white sound HRED?

Fixed all these issues on two Gen3 guns for me.

JV_
09-25-2011, 05:55 PM
Have you tried the white sound HRED? Not in this gun.

fuse
09-25-2011, 10:59 PM
Not in this gun.

Doesn't work or haven't tried it?

I am a huge believer in this part. Because of past mental scars suffered at the hands of errantly extracting Glocks, I think I'll probably put one in every new Glock I ever buy.

JV_
09-26-2011, 05:17 AM
Doesn't work or haven't tried it?

This gun functioned fine up until the last 2 range sessions, something must have moved out of spec or is breaking. I'd like to identify it and replace it, rather than potentially mask it with the HRED. If it was broken from the start, I'd consider it as an upgrade.

Serpico1985
10-04-2011, 11:35 PM
A couple of related questions:

Are the new gen 3 19's and 17's problematic? Or is it safe to buy a new 2010/2011 gen 3?

I'll be picking up a 19 or 17 in the next week and am trying to make up my mind. It will not be a carry gun.

Thanks for any info y'all can give me.

fuse
10-05-2011, 01:54 AM
Are the new gen 3 19's and 17's problematic? Or is it safe to buy a new 2010/2011 gen 3?


Yes.

Street Survival
10-05-2011, 06:48 AM
I find this really disheartening as I currently have 2 Gen 4, Model 17's at Bar-Sto having custom barrels fitted. I guess they will make for great conversational paper weights.

Fraternally yours

Jimmy Ward

JV_
10-05-2011, 06:55 AM
With the new RSA, ejector, and potentially some extractor changes - I'm hopeful the Gen4 problems are fixed. I'm just waiting for the new ejector guns to hit my local gun shop, I'll probably get a Gen4 17.

TCinVA
10-05-2011, 07:06 AM
I find this really disheartening as I currently have 2 Gen 4, Model 17's at Bar-Sto having custom barrels fitted. I guess they will make for great conversational paper weights.

Fraternally yours

Jimmy Ward

It's unfortunate...but with the combined experience of all the Glock folks who have had problems they can probably point you in the direction of a solution should you encounter difficulties with your pistols.

...or you could buy a P30. :cool:

JHC
10-05-2011, 08:09 AM
I find this really disheartening as I currently have 2 Gen 4, Model 17's at Bar-Sto having custom barrels fitted. I guess they will make for great conversational paper weights.

Fraternally yours

Jimmy Ward

What??? I wouldn't give up on them so easily. Are you following Todd's long term endurance gun test? You might have guns running as well as his or like the four Gen 4 9mm's here with just shy of 18K rounds across them and 1 FTE. My 8K round perfect G4 G17 has printed a 1.5" group at 25 yds. No telling what fitted Bar-Sto's might deliver.

fuse
10-05-2011, 08:33 AM
...or you could buy a P30. :cool:

So, I know the P30 has an ambi mag release. Can't remember if it has an ambi slide release..

Serpico1985
10-05-2011, 08:41 AM
Yes.


Yes they are problematic or yes they are good to go?

JV_
10-05-2011, 08:45 AM
Yes they are problematic or yes they are good to go?Gen3 guns are largely OK, but some have erratic ejection problems linked to an extractor issue.

LittleLebowski
10-05-2011, 09:36 AM
So, I know the P30 has an ambi mag release. Can't remember if it has an ambi slide release..

It does.

fuse
10-05-2011, 09:46 AM
It does.

Shit.

Thing is, I suck. And HK hates me.

fuse
10-05-2011, 09:48 AM
Gen3 guns are largely OK, but some have erratic ejection problems linked to an extractor issue.

This. I was being facetious.

You'll probably be ok with either generation, in time.
As long as you get your 'free upgrades!'

ToddG
10-05-2011, 09:54 AM
I find this really disheartening as I currently have 2 Gen 4, Model 17's at Bar-Sto having custom barrels fitted. I guess they will make for great conversational paper weights.

JW -- I'd be lying if I said the gen4 9mm guns were always good to go right out of the box. Glock shipped the new gen4 G34 with the old ejector even after the new ejector had been developed. To me, that's offensive. They knew there was a problem, they had what they believed (or at least hoped) would be a fix, but didn't want to spend the time and money to retrofit all those 34's before shipping them to distributors. That's a slap in the face to customers.

It's a lot like the "mag drop" problem M&Ps had years ago. Most guns worked. Some guns could be fixed by a normal part swap. Some guns could be fixed by swapping in a specially adapted part. A small number needed to be replaced because the fundamental flaw in the frame was too severe. The problem took time to develop in some guns, others dropped mags almost right away. People who bought guns during that timeframe might go years of light use before they see a problem.

At least we know Glock is addressing the issue. Public statements notwithstanding, we know the latest recoil spring assemblies are supposed to fix some problems. There is a new ejector. They know the extractor plays a role in the problems some people see. Eventually, I'm pretty confident the 9mm gen4 guns will be good to go. And obviously, a pretty decent percentage of current production guns are fine as is.

But I have to disagree with JHC's optimism. He's got some that run well. Plenty of others do, too. But I'm guessing if we took a poll, there are more people on this forum who have owned bad 9mm gen4 Glocks than there are people who've owned good ones... especially if we define "good" as a gun that continues to run properly past 2,000 rounds.

My personal record:
* gen4 19 that was so abysmal, Glock replaced it
* gen4 17 that finally got working after cherry picking a third replacement extractor
* gen4 17 that ejects brass erratically with less than 1,000 rounds through it

I've got two of the new ejectors that will be going in the guns as soon as I have a chance to spend some time on the range to test them. I'm hoping it will be the panacea Glock expects.

Long tom coffin
10-05-2011, 10:47 AM
JW -- I'd be lying if I said the gen4 9mm guns were always good to go right out of the box. Glock shipped the new gen4 G34 with the old ejector even after the new ejector had been developed. To me, that's offensive. They knew there was a problem, they had what they believed (or at least hoped) would be a fix, but didn't want to spend the time and money to retrofit all those 34's before shipping them to distributors. That's a slap in the face to customers.


Did not know that, and I definitely agree.



At least we know Glock is addressing the issue. Public statements notwithstanding, we know the latest recoil spring assemblies are supposed to fix some problems. There is a new ejector. They know the extractor plays a role in the problems some people see. Eventually, I'm pretty confident the 9mm gen4 guns will be good to go. And obviously, a pretty decent percentage of current production guns are fine as is.

I think my primary problem is that Glock took as long as they did to correct the issue. I'm not necessarily upset that there were some early issues with the Gen 4's; I've accepted this kind of behavior to be the new paradigm among gun manufacturers and I've elected to get over it, put in my 2,000 reliability tests, and move on. My beef is that Glock pulled a Toyota and deliberately tried to obfuscate the problems with a twin admit-nothing/bogus-fix scenario.



But I have to disagree with JHC's optimism. He's got some that run well. Plenty of others do, too. But I'm guessing if we took a poll, there are more people on this forum who have owned bad 9mm gen4 Glocks than there are people who've owned good ones... especially if we define "good" as a gun that continues to run properly past 2,000 rounds.

My personal record:
* gen4 19 that was so abysmal, Glock replaced it
* gen4 17 that finally got working after cherry picking a third replacement extractor
* gen4 17 that ejects brass erratically with less than 1,000 rounds through it

I've got two of the new ejectors that will be going in the guns as soon as I have a chance to spend some time on the range to test them. I'm hoping it will be the panacea Glock expects.

Given your track record with the Gen 4's, I can certainly see how you would have that issue. You have had three lame ducks in a row. But I wouldn't count a sample from the internet as statistically relevant because the internet by nature most often attracts negative input. Any poll on this forum would have statistical clustering written all over it :) JHC has multiple Gen 4's that run flawlessly. I have two that do so myself that I am quite happy with. I know a few people who have had issues with their Gen 4's, but nothing as major as what I've seen on the internet. However, I also know significantly more people who have Gen 4's that operate flawlessly, and several of them aren't low volume shooters, either.

ToddG
10-05-2011, 10:54 AM
I'm not sure how a poll here would be skewed. It's not like PF members are more likely to get bad Glocks.

Lil'L has had problems, JV has had problems, joshs has had problems, I've had problems, and so on and so on. We're talking about experienced shooters who have no interest other than getting a reliable gun. The whole reason companies like Glock take so long to fix these problems is because they convince themselves the problem is "much rarer than it looks on the internet." Then eventually they realize, no, there really is a problem and it's widespread enough that it needs to be addressed.

LilL, JV, josh, and I could have told them that six months ago.

edited to add: I also see quite a few gen4 9mm Glocks in classes and enough of them have problems that it stands out. A student in the last class I taught (Indy SK/GS) wasn't about to get through the 2,000 Round Challenge because his gen4 G19 kept having the typical reversed-case failure to eject. If it was a 1-in-1,000 problem or even a 1-in-100 problem, I don't think I'd be seeing them so often.

Imagine the crazy odds that would have been necessary for me to get two proven problematic gen4 9mms and another that is likely headed in that direction if the "vast majority" of the 9mm gen4 guns are good to go...

LittleLebowski
10-05-2011, 11:08 AM
I was one of the first people in the world (that I know of) to take my Gen4 9mm problems publicly. That was with my first Gen4 (a 17). The second one (a 19) didn't start malfunctioning until around 4k rds which is almost exactly the same time that JV with the the same exact model of pistol had the same problems.

I like Glocks a lot. However, Glock's actions as a company are very disheartening. I am very close to making the large investment of time and money to switch to a new platform (HK).

JHC
10-05-2011, 11:24 AM
Ok but I wouldn't write off two new guns with fitted Bar-Sto barrels until I got to shoot them. ;)

Gear Scout's speculations on root cause sound very plausible. I'm wondering if one of these days I don't try to change to the new ejectors even though our guns run very well. I probably will with one when I get one of the new ejectors by hook or by crook to see the difference. Same for the HRED dealie.

DocGKR
10-05-2011, 12:16 PM
There were a couple of large West Coast LE agencies that were testing gen 4 Glocks in the Summer of 2010. Beginning some 16 months ago they informed Glock of significant problems associated with the RSA, extractors, and ejectors on gen 4 pistols, as well as the poor execution of the replaceable back straps. Rather than listen or attempt to correct the problems, Glock tried to bluff and bluster their way out of the issues. Now, nearly a year and a half later, Glock finally seems to be trying to address some of these design and production problems associated with the gen 4 pistols--seems kind of late, lame, and lazy...

JonInWA
10-05-2011, 03:18 PM
There were a couple of large West Coast LE agencies that were testing gen 4 Glocks in the Summer of 2010. Beginning some 16 months ago they informed Glock of significant problems associated with the RSA, extractors, and ejectors on gen 4 pistols, as well as the poor execution of the replaceable back straps. Rather than listen or attempt to correct the problems, Glock tried to bluff and bluster their way out of the issues. Now, nearly a year and a half later, Glock finally seems to be trying to address some of these design and production problems associated with the gen 4 pistols--seems kind of late, lame, and lazy...

In fairness to Glock Inc and Glock Professional's respective US operations, I think that the fact that Glock's HQ is in Austria, with significant decision-making apparently still centralized there should be factored in. I've heard that there's a bit of a long-standing contention between the US operation and Austria regarding the necessity for Austria to do significant pre-production and ongoing testing with US-prevelant ammunition, which if done probably would have helped in the early identification of some of the 9mm Gen4 issues. If true, this schism (possibly both geographic and cultural-and by cultural that might be expanded to incorporate mindset differences between engineers and non-engineers...) may be applicable to some of the current perceived issues and their resolution/resolution times.

I'd also suggest that whatever has been publicly said by Glock/Glock reps, either officially or anecdotally, that Glock does seem to be decisively grappling with the issues in a fairly nimble (in a manufacturing timeframe context) manner. Such has not always been the case with other contemporary manufacturers of competing platforms that have been concurrently highly recommended.

Best, Jon

ToddG
10-05-2011, 03:25 PM
Jon -- Except the problems have cropped up throughout Europe, too, with militaries and agencies using NATO-spec ammo. In fact, it was only when the complaints were coming from Europeans that Glock seemed to take the complaints seriously.

So, you're correct that Glock Austria doesn't seem to take the US seriously from the standpoint of reliability complaints. But the gen4 guns needed more than just development and testing with US-manufactured ammo.

Furthermore, as someone who's worked for two European gun companies and dealt with US mil/LE customers for both, "It's Europe's fault" is worth exactly zero. If American institutional customers are buying the gun, they expect to be treated as well, and as timely, as if they'd bought a gun manufactured in the US.

I'd agree that between the time Glock Austria started taking the problem seriously and Glock Austria has some solutions, the timeframe was pretty tight. For example, if you know the story behind how (and when) the ejector was first identified as a part of the problem, it's impressive they got a new one into production so soon. However, they first ignored or excused their way out of responsibility for about a year, and from the customers' standpoint, that adds a year to the problem.

JonInWA
10-05-2011, 06:04 PM
Todd, those are undeniably excellent points...

Best, Jon

Dagga Boy
10-05-2011, 06:07 PM
While working a law enforcement only show a couple months ago, I saw something I didn't think I would ever see in a lifetime. SoCal cops spewing pure hate towards Glock and how many have been treated and the action of Glocks reps and their customer service, and then having a ton of guys literally raving about HK's customer service. Equally...........happy with the quality of Smith autos, and MAJOR complaints about Sigs quality.........I have decided the end of the world is in fact near:mad:.

JHC
10-05-2011, 06:50 PM
StreetSurvival - at least post how they group with premium ammo before you toss them aside.

Mitchell, Esq.
10-05-2011, 10:50 PM
While working a law enforcement only show a couple months ago, I saw something I didn't think I would ever see in a lifetime. SoCal cops spewing pure hate towards Glock and how many have been treated and the action of Glocks reps and their customer service, and then having a ton of guys literally raving about HK's customer service. Equally...........happy with the quality of Smith autos, and MAJOR complaints about Sigs quality.........I have decided the end of the world is in fact near:mad:.

That's just...

Sad.

Long tom coffin
10-05-2011, 11:07 PM
I'm not sure how a poll here would be skewed. It's not like PF members are more likely to get bad Glocks.

Lil'L has had problems, JV has had problems, joshs has had problems, I've had problems, and so on and so on. We're talking about experienced shooters who have no interest other than getting a reliable gun. The whole reason companies like Glock take so long to fix these problems is because they convince themselves the problem is "much rarer than it looks on the internet." Then eventually they realize, no, there really is a problem and it's widespread enough that it needs to be addressed.

LilL, JV, josh, and I could have told them that six months ago.

edited to add: I also see quite a few gen4 9mm Glocks in classes and enough of them have problems that it stands out. A student in the last class I taught (Indy SK/GS) wasn't about to get through the 2,000 Round Challenge because his gen4 G19 kept having the typical reversed-case failure to eject. If it was a 1-in-1,000 problem or even a 1-in-100 problem, I don't think I'd be seeing them so often.

Imagine the crazy odds that would have been necessary for me to get two proven problematic gen4 9mms and another that is likely headed in that direction if the "vast majority" of the 9mm gen4 guns are good to go...

Points well taken.

Long tom coffin
10-05-2011, 11:17 PM
I was one of the first people in the world (that I know of) to take my Gen4 9mm problems publicly. That was with my first Gen4 (a 17). The second one (a 19) didn't start malfunctioning until around 4k rds which is almost exactly the same time that JV with the the same exact model of pistol had the same problems.

I like Glocks a lot. However, Glock's actions as a company are very disheartening. I am very close to making the large investment of time and money to switch to a new platform (HK).


Glock has done alot of dumb shit in the past. This isn't the first time they've done it, and it won't be the last either. The same can be said of any other gun company, HK, S&W, SIG, Beretta and Ruger included.

As much as I can remember, the current Glock fiasco with the Gen 4 RSA's and ejectors/extractors bears more than a passing resemblance to Glock's handling of the PHase III issues with the NYPD; Glock dicked around a major police department for months while refusing to acknowledge anything was wrong. Only after the NYPD took the drastic step of calling out GLock and contacting Ruger did Smyrna/Austria actually do anything. Glock's behavior during the Gen 4 issues is only par for the course, with some minor improvements.

echo19
10-05-2011, 11:20 PM
I called Glock CS this morning and complained about my G17 Gen 3 which is having extracting problems. I told the man I was an armorer and have been for over 12 years. He told me it wasn't an extraction problem but more than likely ammo. I told him I used two different manufacturers. His recommendation was to have another armorer watch the ejection pattern and I had the option to send the gun in. I'm not an idiot, I had two people watch the pattern and the brass landed back on the pistol or on my arm. Piss poor customer service for an armorer, I can just imagine what a non-LEO, non-armorer is getting. HK is looking better.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

TCinVA
10-06-2011, 09:05 AM
Glock has done alot of dumb shit in the past. This isn't the first time they've done it, and it won't be the last either. The same can be said of any other gun company, HK, S&W, SIG, Beretta and Ruger included.

As much as I can remember, the current Glock fiasco with the Gen 4 RSA's and ejectors/extractors bears more than a passing resemblance to Glock's handling of the PHase III issues with the NYPD; Glock dicked around a major police department for months while refusing to acknowledge anything was wrong. Only after the NYPD took the drastic step of calling out GLock and contacting Ruger did Smyrna/Austria actually do anything. Glock's behavior during the Gen 4 issues is only par for the course, with some minor improvements.

I've always thought it was silly to market one's product as "Perfection."....but downright inexcusable to actually believe it.

Long tom coffin
10-06-2011, 11:27 AM
I've always thought it was silly to market one's product as "Perfection."....but downright inexcusable to actually believe it.

There's never been anything perfect about Glock or its firearms. Depending on who you ask, there were lots of little imperfections. Glock's pistols weren't "Perfect", they were (and are) retardedly simplistic. I mean, logic dictates that the more complicated a machine is, the higher chance of mechanical failure, correct? There's more possibilities for things to go wrong.Obviously, the reverse that the more simple a machine, the less chance of mechanical failure. And that's how glock operates. Glock isn't anything special; they just figured out how to craft a halfway decent and reliable pistol for an acceptable price point with a minimum of moving parts. Well, they did.


Now if we could just get Gaston to realize this.

JHC
10-06-2011, 11:52 AM
Meh, Chevy ain't "Like a Rock" either. Whatcha gonna do? "Glock; we're a pretty good choice." (d90king) ;)

ToddG
10-06-2011, 01:06 PM
I mean, logic dictates that the more complicated a machine is, the higher chance of mechanical failure, correct?

This is a fallacious argument. Complexity does not inherently mean less reliable. Take a top end Swiss watch movement. It is phenomenally more complicated than any handgun. But it's expected to beat half a million times a day with less than a 0.006% error rate... for a lifetime, with a maintenance routine every 2-5 years.

Alternatively, you could follow the "logic" to its obvious conclusion. A one-piece gun would be the height of simplicity, but would not work at all.

TCinVA
10-06-2011, 02:04 PM
Glock's pistols weren't "Perfect", they were (and are) retardedly simplistic.

Well of course not...but actually stating that isn't really welcomed in Glock's corporate culture, from what I understand.

Hence the problems.

JonInWA
10-06-2011, 02:26 PM
The other thing that kills me is that we routinely expect continuous, uninterrupted performance from another tool, utilizing controlled and enclosed explosions, with minimal operator lubrication and maintenance expectations-our modern vehicles. These things literally have thousands and thousands of interreacting components, both mechanical and electronic, and are continuously exposed to less than ideal environmental situations. Yet it's a realistic expectation for most modern vehicles to perform flawlessly for thousands of miles before maintenance intervals-which are mostly lube, oil and filter changes.

Yeah, the analogy may be somewhat flawed if doing a one-on-one comparison between a firearm and a vehicle (not too many firearms cost tens of thousands of dollars {unless you really feel compelled to buy a new production Krieghoff P.08 Luger, et al...} for example. But still...

Obviously, there's a size-to-result, and cost (both R&D, basic resource procurement, manufacturing, packaging, shipping, distribution, marketing, forcasted aftermarket service/warranty requirements and the ultimate purchaser's) factors to be taken into account. But for crying out loud, it really seem like all that we're asking for is a return to the pre-2010 Gen 3 G17/G19 level of performance; it's not like we all need to run out and buy new SIG 210s...

Best, Jon

Long tom coffin
10-06-2011, 03:50 PM
This is a fallacious argument. Complexity does not inherently mean less reliable. Take a top end Swiss watch movement. It is phenomenally more complicated than any handgun. But it's expected to beat half a million times a day with less than a 0.006% error rate... for a lifetime, with a maintenance routine every 2-5 years.

Alternatively, you could follow the "logic" to its obvious conclusion. A one-piece gun would be the height of simplicity, but would not work at all.

That's taking my argument to unreasonable levels.

Kyle Reese
10-06-2011, 05:30 PM
All I want fer Christmas is a 9mm Gen 3 Glock (pre 2010), a 9mm Gen 3 Glock (pre 2010), a 9mm Gen 3 Glock (pre 2010). :D

JV_
10-06-2011, 05:33 PM
I just want a Gen4 that works well. I think we're very close....

ToddG
10-06-2011, 07:27 PM
A new FORTY-cal ejector is incoming, too.

Prdator
10-06-2011, 07:34 PM
A new FORTY-cal ejector is incoming, too.

WOW!! any more info on it??

fuse
10-06-2011, 10:22 PM
A new FORTY-cal ejector is incoming, too.

Only for those professional enough, though.

NickA
10-07-2011, 09:13 AM
Only for those professional enough, though.

And I believe the correct nomenclature is "fotay"

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Long tom coffin
10-07-2011, 10:41 AM
All I want fer Christmas is a 9mm Gen 3 Glock (pre 2010), a 9mm Gen 3 Glock (pre 2010), a 9mm Gen 3 Glock (pre 2010). :D

Just to clarify, the sole issue with the post 2010 Gen 3's is the extractor, right?

JV_
10-07-2011, 11:20 AM
Just to clarify, the sole issue with the post 2010 Gen 3's is the extractor, right?

Correct.

-Sent using Tapatalk.

David Armstrong
10-07-2011, 01:33 PM
And my Gen 2 17, 19, and 22 just keep chugging along with boring reliability.:cool:

MikeO
10-07-2011, 04:07 PM
As does my old S&W 5906, Ruger GP100, and SA Mil-Spec. ;)

joshs
10-07-2011, 09:45 PM
I got a new G17G4 on 10/02. I ended my first range trip with the gun very early because I had two inline stovepipes in the first box of ammunition. The gun also suffered from terrible ejection, which alternated between coming straight back into my face and barely making it out of the ejection port. This makes me two-for-two on Gen4 17s that don't work out of the box.

Today I installed a White Sound HRED and a Lone Wolf extractor. I was only able to fire 150 rounds, but there were no malfunctions and ejection was much more consistent.

Ga Shooter
10-08-2011, 07:21 AM
Info from Apex Tactical is that they are working on and near completed with a extractor and ejector replacement kit. That should take care of a lot of the problems I am looking forward to seeing how that turns out.

ToddG
10-08-2011, 08:39 AM
Given that the new Glock ejector has fixed the problem for everyone I know who has tried one, I'm not sure there will be a problem much longer. At least, I hope not.

Wayne Dobbs
10-08-2011, 10:42 AM
Todd,

The question now is how long will Glock take to make that part generally available? And, will they make the ejector alone available or only installed on a trigger mechanism housing?

EricP
10-08-2011, 08:54 PM
So, are new Gen 4 G19s shipping with all the parts necessary for them to work out of the box?

If you want a smooth faced trigger, which generation g17 trigger and bar do you put in it?

ToddG
10-08-2011, 10:42 PM
epete -- A significant number of problems identified with early "bad" gen4 9mm pistols have been traced back to people putting gen3 trigger bars in them for a better trigger pull. As such, I'd definitely recommend the gen4 trigger bar.

As for whether the new ejector will solve everything or whether Glock will hand them out to everyone who needs one, I honestly wouldn't hazard a guess.

Long tom coffin
10-08-2011, 10:44 PM
Todd,

The question now is how long will Glock take to make that part generally available? And, will they make the ejector alone available or only installed on a trigger mechanism housing?

FYI, I spoke to Dave at Glockparts again on thursday, and he said that he was previously expecting a shipment of the 30274's with his last shipment, but got the 336's instead. He told me called back and specifically requested the 30274, and is expecting them in the next week or so. I gave him my number and he said he'll give me a ring as soon as he gets them, so as soon as I hear from him I'll spill the beans on the board.

fuse
12-14-2011, 09:43 PM
Damn, you're a glutton for punishment. Gaston is your abusive spouse.

Seriously. He's like a trailer park wife. Always back for more.

JMS
12-19-2011, 04:04 PM
Given that the new Glock ejector has fixed the problem for everyone I know who has tried one, I'm not sure there will be a problem much longer. At least, I hope not.

I'm very-cautiously-optimistic, at the moment. I'm at about 800 rounds into the new ejector put in at the time I swapped out for a smooth-face trigger on a Gen3 bar. PMC or some other lower-pressure stuff, less 50 rounds of M882.

Ejection pattern is barely a blip to me....because democracy's at stake, I'd have to be paid to care less, so long as it's feeding/extracting/ejecting..., but I have somebody else that also shoots this thing that DOES care, so according to the folks I asked to look-see about that (because I don't give a crap), the thing's ejecting consistently to 1500-1530 on the lo-pressure stuff, with the M882 going more to 1600+ and upward.

Extractor hasn't been touched. So, yeah, looks okay so far, but I haven't broken 2500 with this thing yet, and some of the reports of having no problems crop up until larger round-counts is firmly in my mind.

Cosmo M3
12-20-2011, 08:05 AM
Shot over 250 rounds over the weekend with the new 0-4-3 RSA and polished OEM extractor (#1). I have not received my 30274 extractor yet from Glock.

I had one stovepipe with Federal HST 147gr (this is after I installed a brand new Lone Wolf barrel).

It still has a lot to prove before I feel that it's good to go.

Cosmo M3
12-22-2011, 08:42 AM
i'm going to experiment with the .40 caliber extractor because I've heard that people that have used the 9mm extractor on their G22/G23 experienced erratic ejections, but people with G17/G19s with the .40 caliber extractors (#4) experience consistent and reliable ejections.

I ordered a new OEM .40 caliber extractor from Lone Wolf and I'm going to give this a try

JeffJ
12-22-2011, 10:59 AM
I decided to join the abused spouse club.

Picked up a 19 yesterday and took it to the range. This one has the 0-3-4 recoil spring and the older ejector. I had 3 stoppages in the first mag, all of the double feed variety, not a stove pipe. After that it went through another 219 rounds without a hiccup. The ejection pattern with practice ammo is ridiculous but it did fine with both HST+P 124gr and Ranger 147gr, I'm going to swap the ejector and see what that does as well as see if the first mag stoppages were an abbaration (I'm an optimist)

Other than getting pelted with brass, I really like the way it shot - I like the texture and it feels like it gets back on target really quickly. I didn't put a timer on it yesterday, but the sights tracked really well and I felt like I was shooting pretty quick (I know, I know, that doesn't mean much)

Joe Chen
12-22-2011, 02:52 PM
people with G17/G19s with the .40 caliber extractors (#4) experience consistent and reliable ejections.Can you verify that the numbering on the extractors is caliber specific? It was my understanding that it just indicated the mold.

Cosmo M3
12-22-2011, 03:04 PM
Can you verify that the numbering on the extractors is caliber specific? It was my understanding that it just indicated the mold.

I think you're right about the mold specific model number, so it might be caliber specific instead

LittleLebowski
12-22-2011, 10:46 PM
Is the new ejector out for purchase?

GJM
12-22-2011, 10:52 PM
As of a month ago, the only way you could get it was to send your pistol back to Glock for a free "Gen 4 improvement." Recent new pistols I have seen have the new ejector, number 30274.

Long tom coffin
12-22-2011, 11:40 PM
Is the new ejector out for purchase?

I will update GJM's info as current as of yesterday. I want one of the new ejectors, not out of necessity at the moment (Mine run fine), but as a hedge against any future issues. Those are doubtful as well, considering I've well exceeded the high number roundcounts where some people have reported issues.


Over the past couple of months I've been in contact with multiple Glock reps, techs, and dealers/suppliers, and from what I'm understanding the 30274 isn't going to be out any time soon. The backlog for the part is extreme, primarily cuz it's to be placed into contract/agency/new production weapons first plus demands from armorers and guns sent in for repair means "don't expect it any time soon". My local armorer who's very familiar with the situation and possible fixes says he's actually expecting Randy Lee to drop his stuff on the market first before the 30274 hits. He also said he's had several of them on order for the past month and hasn't received them yet.

Cosmo M3
12-23-2011, 05:43 PM
I just replaced both of my trigger housings on my G19s with the new "30274" ejectors and it did not solve the erratic ejection issue. I think it actually made it worse.

Good news is that I have not experienced a single malfunction :)

I'm gonna try again with a new factory .40 caliber extractor.



Glock 19 Gen 4:
-Polished OEM Extractor (#1)
-30274 Ejector
-0-4-3 RSA

Ga Shooter
12-23-2011, 06:51 PM
If you want to dump those ejectors let me know.

Ga Shooter
12-23-2011, 08:51 PM
Knock on wood all three of mine have been good so far. 1 G17 is backup and as such has only seen about 500 rounds. While my 19 has erratic ejection it has not had any malfunctions yet.

farscott
01-09-2012, 06:21 PM
I would also get the Gen 3, but that is no guarantee that the pistols will run properly. I picked up two new 3rd Generation G19s with serial number prefixes SCZ and SFC, and SFC is fine. SCZ is a freaking nightmare and has done things I usually attribute to tight 1911s, including stovepipes and FTRTB. It cannot be the magazines or ammo as each works fine with SFC. So far, SCZ has resisted efforts to fix it, including swapping internals from SFC. I need to spend some time with the calipers and micrometers measuring the slide.

turbolag23
01-09-2012, 10:04 PM
i probably should have went gen3 but they were out and only had 1 gen4 left. my cert was only good through wednesday and they werent getting any gen3's for a week. i ended up with a gen4 19 prefix SAR and the 0-4 spring, test fired on 11/14/11. only shot 100 rounds during that range secession but had no issues.

mizer67
01-10-2012, 09:39 AM
My Gen4 17 has been 100% through 4K since the 30274 ejector/extractor install, even with low powered ammo and (for experimentation) switching back to older, heavier Glock factory recoil assemblies. I consider that fortunate.

I don't like 5-round groups for testing accuracy, but I've shot a number of sub 2.5 inch 10 and 15 round groups at 25 yards with my G17 from a rest using N330 and N340 and good bullets like HAPs, XTPs or even PD 124 JHPs during load testing, which works for me.

Mine seems finicky about what it will shoot well, however. It only seems to really like VV powders with whatever bullet I put in front of them, out of the 10 or so I've tried. Titegroup works acceptably, as does Silouhette, but the groups open up to 3-3.5" at 25 yards.

turbolag23
01-20-2012, 11:34 AM
on my second time shooting the gen4 19 i had a stovepipe 79 rounds in, 179 overall through the gun. I'm not sure if its just coincidence that was also the first round fired with a x300 attached. ejection seems normal otherwise and no other issues in the remaining 71 shots with the x300 on.