Tactical Movement (How to see the a-hole before he see you)...

[Tensaw]

Okay, so even using the word "tactical" makes me cringe, but it was the best I could come up with.

So this is a really a two-part inquiry, and a wide ranging one at that. I am thinking of situations in which we know, or believe, (big) trouble is afoot and we need to move either toward or away from the problem area without getting shot. This could encompass anything from checking on loved ones in the residence after a bump in the night to being caught in a Kroger or outlet mall when an active shooter cracks off; or a cop in Dallas with the shooter in front of us as we try to use a building column for cover. [In the active shooter scenario, I would posit that the same tactics/movement patterns that would be recommended for trying to hunt and put down the shooter would also be a best practice if we were trying to find an exit.]

Knowing that this is a huge topic and one that likely cannot ever be truly "mastered", there are nonetheless pressure-tested protocols that can be employed toward the goal of seeing the a-hole before he sees us and being in a tactically (there's that dang word again) superior position before we engage (or disengage). I am specifically *not* thinking about a street robbery type situation where you are already inside bad-breath distance when things unfold. I am thinking more movement to (or away from) contact.

First (and main question) is what training outfits do this well? I would be looking for a very low round count class because the nuggets I seek have little to do with actually pulling the trigger vice the movements that precede that. I would think that most of this sort of training could/would/should be done dry. (But maybe I'm wrong.) (I took a quick look at training available from Craig Douglas, but did not see an AMIS class offered anywhere near me. But that would be the sort of thing I'm thinking of.)

Second, to the extent possible, do you guys have any pro-tips that can be conveyed via a post here? Also, any book recommendations would be great. (I totally get that this is best learned in a training class.)

[Moylan]

I'm not the right person to actually try to answer your questions, but I do think it would help if you'd say what counts as "near you." :) I took a neat 1 day low light/home defense class at The Range Complex in Autryville, NC that I'd say would be a good starting point for what you're asking about. Pat Goodale up in WV has a shoothouse class (full for this year, looks like). But if you're out in Colorado or something, that info may not be much help. I agree with you about there not being much need for live fire, but I also think that's unusual, because people like to shoot.

[Tensaw]

I’m in SW Virginia. Would drive up to 12 hours for the right class

[gringop]

CSAT has a few courses that might give you what you want.

AIT, CQT and maybe UDC.

https://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/general-5

Gringop

[RJ]

Wayyyy out of my lane, but John Murphy springs to mind. IIRC he is in Virginia?

https://www.fpftraining.com/

I still remember the AAA rule from his presentation at Tac Con 2017, "...Always Avoid Assholes..."

[Totem Polar]

TBH, a bowhunting stalking class or a paintball field might be more useful than a square range “shooter” class for the skills needed to move and observe covertly. I agree that, if one doesn’t have access to something like AMIS, there’s not a ton of classes on the radar that are specific to covert movement.

With the caveat that our resident SME on CQB has often said that CQB has a specific meaning around team tactics, I will say that I found some good things in this kindle book:

https://www.amazon.com/Single-Person-Close-Quarters-Battle-Enforcement-ebook/dp/B01MTVTV8R

You might also find something to pique your interest in the oeuvre of this author, here:

https://www.amazon.com/stores/Matthew-Dermody/author/B0755M21MK?ref=ap_rdr&store_ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

If nothing else, practice makes perfect. How close can you get to someone in a mall or hiking trail before they notice you? You’d be amazed.

I’ll follow this thread. I’d love to take a good class dedicated to this topic.

[PNWTO]

If nothing else, practice makes perfect. How close can you get to someone in a mall or hiking trail before they notice you? You’d be amazed.



Not sure if it part of the current curriculum but Ed Calderon used to do this on the second day of his class. Go to a mall and see how many playing cards you can slip into pockets or go to a designated store and pick the painted padlock on the clothing rack. Doing the "covert in the overt" and one learns a lot about how oblivious most people are and the lessons are really easy to reverse engineer. The best trophy "earned" was a mall cop's radio so there's your testament to most security measures.

To the thread, Kyle Defoor has discussed such movement in his open enrollment classes; but it depends on the make-up and flow of the class. He has some good examples from organizations that sometimes have solo or paired individuals working OCONUS and need to slip away when things get a weird vibe.

[1slow]

I would be quite careful about stalking or planting objects on people. They may assume an attack or pickpocket.

You may rightfully be assumed to have bad intentions and some people will react with fell intent.

Some of the people I trained with would lock your joints at the first uninvited physical contact, if you fought they would hurt you.

Some would just hurt you from the beginning.

Others, if followed would lead you into a bad place.

Some of these had bad experiences and tended to be sudden.

I am not making any moral or legal arguments, just things I have been around in the past.

[Tensaw]

Paul Howe has a video on Panteao called Active Shooter Response for Civilians which has (short I think) chapters on exterior movement, hallways, and doorways. Gonna check this out pretty soon. But those are precisely the things I am seeking. For the record, not really looking for material on how to use cover/concealment per se, but anything thoughtful on that would be fine as well.
ETA: Any good material on dealing with stairwells would be welcome, although short of being able to prep the lower areas from above with grenades, I think stairwells are just gonna suck.

[FNFAN]

Some of the people I trained with would lock your joints at the first uninvited physical contact, if you fought they would hurt you.

Some would just hurt you from the beginning.

Others, if followed would lead you into a bad place.



I laughed and smiled at this for an inordinate amount of time. Epic!

[Utm]

Okay, so even using the word "tactical" makes me cringe, but it was the best I could come up with.

So this is a really a two-part inquiry, and a wide ranging one at that. I am thinking of situations in which we know, or believe, (big) trouble is afoot and we need to move either toward or away from the problem area without getting shot. This could encompass anything from checking on loved ones in the residence after a bump in the night to being caught in a Kroger or outlet mall when an active shooter cracks off; or a cop in Dallas with the shooter in front of us as we try to use a building column for cover. [In the active shooter scenario, I would posit that the same tactics/movement patterns that would be recommended for trying to hunt and put down the shooter would also be a best practice if we were trying to find an exit.]

Knowing that this is a huge topic and one that likely cannot ever be truly "mastered", there are nonetheless pressure-tested protocols that can be employed toward the goal of seeing the a-hole before he sees us and being in a tactically (there's that dang word again) superior position before we engage (or disengage). I am specifically *not* thinking about a street robbery type situation where you are already inside bad-breath distance when things unfold. I am thinking more movement to (or away from) contact.

First (and main question) is what training outfits do this well? I would be looking for a very low round count class because the nuggets I seek have little to do with actually pulling the trigger vice the movements that precede that. I would think that most of this sort of training could/would/should be done dry. (But maybe I'm wrong.) (I took a quick look at training available from Craig Douglas, but did not see an AMIS class offered anywhere near me. But that would be the sort of thing I'm thinking of.)

Second, to the extent possible, do you guys have any pro-tips that can be conveyed via a post here? Also, any book recommendations would be great. (I totally get that this is best learned in a training class.)
This would be a force on force class, not a range class. Unfortunately force on force classes are difficult to come by in the civilian world

[sickeness]

Mike Pannone's current iteration of his covert carry class includes sections on turning and shooting and shooting from and around cover. Not sure if that meets your needs but it was a good class.

[revchuck38]

Greg Ellifritz has covered this several times in his "Weekend Knowledge Dump".

[Tensaw]

Greg Ellifritz has covered this several times in his "Weekend Knowledge Dump".

Good gracious! That is a ton of info! I knew about Ellifritz, but this has not been on my radar. This should keep me occupied for a while.

[zacbol]

I'm not sure how frequently it's offered anymore but Insights Training used to offer Street & Vehicle Tactics I & II that focused on many of these scenarios. When I tooked SVT II, it included things like role plays of liquor store robberies where just getting out was a goal as well as one in which we were moving through cooridors/rooms with a developmentally disabled kid during an active shooter situation. Not sure how often it's offered now and it seems like Greg may not be teaching with John these days. Greg has also seemed lately to focus more on some other classes like Urban Recon classes and his upcoming 4 day rural Recondo class which is focused on much different stuff.

I did a brief write-up at the time here:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9307-AAR-Insights-Street-amp-Vehicle-Tactics-II-in-Redmond-Wa-(8-16-8-18)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Awesome write up. I did SVT in TX with Greg at Karl Rehn's. The scenarios were thought exercises and not just shoot'em ups. Avoidance was up there. This still makes me laugh. We were outside with Greg and another group was in the shoot house. All of a sudden you heard some shots from the house and a door flew open and a gaggle of strong, manly men thundered out. Greg said: Well, that's a major hauling of ass!"

As far as John Holschen - JLW (Weems guy) has a podcast with John with him explaining what he is up to lately. I was watching it and my wife came in and I said - Hey, that guy almost sat on my head. What! It was trying to teach how to escape from such. Significantly, this long enough ago, that we had much more hair!

Did Insights:
Street and Vehicle Tactics
Defensive Folding Knife I
Unarmed Self Defense I
Intensive Handgun Skills

[Whiskey]

Kinetic Consulting teaches a "Weaponized Geometry" course that deals with single man CQB. I haven't taken it, but I took a low light course from him, and wouldn't hesitate to take any other class.

Orion Training Group also teaches CQB to citizens. Again haven't taken their course, but I've seen their stuff on Youtube and it seems legit.

The only other classes I've taken on CQB have been LE based and many of those unfortunately only open their courses to LE and Military.

[feudist]

TL;DR: "Doors and corners, kid." Detective Miller.
Plus Farnam's Four Stupids, "Don't go stupid places with stupid people at stupid times and do stupid things."

A lot of what you are describing relates to mindset, awareness, threat assessment and decision making. Then fusing those into a series of heuristics that create an actionable worldview. I think it's more a way of thinking than a skill set, though there are techniques that speed up your OODA Loop(Which in police work means Observe, Overreact, Destroy, Apologize) by creating an "Emergency Persona".
An example of a heuristic framework.
Preclude: Don't do predictably dangerous things like getting gas at 1100 pm at the Stop-n-Rob in the Hood.
Avoid: When you detect unusual behavior(arguing, drunkenness, bizarre displays, small groups of young males idling conspicuously, someone mirroring your behavior) immediately leave the AO.
Disengage: If approached by a stranger requesting something, firmly and politely say "NO, can't help you" and move out. Many criminals do a "Shark bump" or "Interview" to assess how easy you are to victimize. Re: Southnarc's MUC.
Preempt: Challenge, then if necessary hit first and hit hard. Ensure you understand AOJ(Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy) and the legal environment you are in.
Displace: Get off the X and out of the kill zone.
Each of these requires an understanding of specific attentional methods, cue detection and predetermined actions.
Some book recommendations to flesh out this approach.

Principles of Personal Defense , Jeff Cooper.
Step by step situational awareness using the Color Code, with each level of awareness defined both by what you're paying attention to and the steps you take when entering it.
Foundational.
Also by Cooper: Fireworks. Particularly the stories "Attention From the Left", " Nocturne in the Ten Ring", and "Mental Conditioning for Combat."

Left of Bang: How the Marine Corps Combat Hunter Program Can Save Your Life, Van Horne and Bailey.
An amalgam of techniques for profiling(Easy now!!!) threat situations taken from sources such as Cooper's Color Code, Human Kinesics, Proxemics, understanding local iconography(gang or protest graffiti, clothing symbolism-gang colors, jailhouse fashions,"Shoot Me First" vests as simple examples) etc.
Taken from a military program developed in Iraq.

The Gift of Fear, Debecker.
The psychology and biology behind fear responses and "Bad feelings" that people ignore because of normalcy bias, cultural conditioning(Stereotyping is naughty!)and simple denial.


The Emergency Mind, Dworkis.
An ER Physician explains how to wire yourself to perform under severe pressure that includes compressed time, extreme consequences and complex decision making on the clock.
A useful and streamlined framework for responding with "If this, then that..." and scenario visualization.


Inside the Criminal Mind, Samenow.
First published in 1984 to the spittle spraying fury of criminologists, psychiatrists and liberals everywhere, this is an examination of how criminals think, based on their own words and actions, as opposed to abstract Nature/Nurture theories or explanations blaming drugs, poverty, racism or political ideology. Quite sobering.

Aids To Scouting, 1915 edition, Baden-Powell.
His original treatise on selecting and training scouts written after his experiences in Rhodesia with Frederick Russell Burnham, a tracker and scout for the Army during the Apache Wars(Scouting On Two Continents) and the basis for the creation of the Boy Scouts. " A scout is a man trained in ground and cover, movement from cover to cover, rifle marksmanship, map reading, observation, and accurately reporting the results of his observation."

The Ranger Handbook, US Army.
Roger's Rules of Ranging, the 5 paragraph Operations order, patrolling and reconnaissance techniques...all ways of organizing movement into and out of unknown, potentially hostile territory. Plus, knot tying.

Hondo, Louis L'Amour.
Yep, a fictional western written in the 1950s.
This book, along with several other L'Amour stories, is concerned with deeply understanding the terrain and conditions of a hostile environment that contains a thinly spread lethal threat by very advanced predators: the Apache.
Hondo is a master class in moving undetected across dangerous ground alone and unsupported. Also, The Lonely Men, which concerns a small group of men penetrating Apacheria to recover kidnapped children.

Videos.
The Active Self Protection channel has hundreds of videos of assaults, shootings and gunfights that show how fast situations can develop and the signs of their imminence. Correia does a decent job of identifying commonalities across a spectrum of attacks.
Also search:" Pre-assault Indicators" to see lots of examples of body language, positioning and other behaviors that typically precede violence.

[Tensaw]

TL;DR: "Doors and corners, kid." Detective Miller.
Plus Farnam's Four Stupids, "Don't go stupid places with stupid people at stupid times and do stupid things."

Dang dude! That's a freakin' treatise right there! Great stuff. The reading list made me chuckle a bit. Not because it isn't good, but because I've read (almost) everything on it over the years (and I am apparently old as shit). Two stood out. The Samenow book. I kept that as a reference and read it cover to cover at least twice. I seem to recall there was a companion book that talked about police tactics. Really groundbreaking stuff for the time. And the Louis L'Amour. I started with Bowdrie's Law and went on to read every western he wrote except one title (which I can't recall now). Louis L'Amour helped raise me.

I've been taking a deep dive into the Active Response Training blog site since starting this thread. Really digging it.