If you can’t carry on the NY subway….

[oakdalecurtis]

Next best option??

https://nypost.com/2023/05/02/shocking-video-shows-vagrant-being-choked-to-death-on-nyc-subway/

[45dotACP]

I wonder if the passerby had legit BJJ skills or just saw a few UFC fights.

The RNC is an incredibly useful tool, but any choke is dangerous if one is not able to recognize when someone's out. They may still make noise or thrash around a bit when unconscious. They won't always close their eyes either. Really freaky to see sometimes



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[Chain]

Wonder if there will be a postmortem tox screen?

[Ed L]

The person who applied the choke is going to be brought up on charges.

I am not meaning to be smug, but:

1. It is New York City and criminals and crazy people are protected species.

2. They will argue that the guy was just being mentally ill/on drugs and loud as many people are on New York streets and had not yet attacked anyone nor was there evidence that he would--just like the rest of those mentally ill individuals who scare people all the time in New York City. The fact that this type of thing is so commonplace in New York City is the very problem in the first place. I think that there is a justified frustration among law abiding citizens about this type of thing.

3. Everyone will be saying that he should have released the choke sooner. Even if the guy was on drugs and it was a contributing factor in his death, the question is would he have died at all if the choke
wasn't applied at that moment.

4. The person choked was black and the person doing the choking was white. Given everything that has been going on for the last 3 years, need I say more?

Below is a pamphlet from 1975 when crime in New York City was high and members of the NYPD were going to be laid off due to a fiscal crisis. I believe this was printed by some police union or organization under some other organization's name.


104297

104300

104301

[Hambo]

I think Ed L is right. The headline and article don't seem sympathetic to the choker. Once the case gets to the DA I would expect manslaughter charges.

[jh9]

I am not meaning to be smug, but:

That isn't smug. It's a dose of reality some people apparently need. The threshold a lot of folks have in their mind for using force is poorly calibrated. Which isn't hard to do, since it seems to vary so much depending on location.


“He started screaming in an aggressive manner,” Vazquez told The Post. “He said he had no food, he had no drink, that he was tired and doesn’t care if he goes to jail. He started screaming all these things, took off his jacket, a black jacket that he had, and threw it on the ground.”

That’s when he said the straphanger came up behind Neely and took him to the ground in a chokehold — keeping him there for some 15 minutes, Vazquez said.

Gesticulating wildly and talking crazy isn't adequate justification to go hands on in most places. Even if it were, it's going to be really, really difficult to argue self defense when you proactively start the fight from behind them. That's going to be the legal mechanism they use, isn't it? Even if their argument is "I was just trying to keep him restrained until we got to the next station so the NYPD could pick him up."

You go to court with the laws you have, not the laws you want.

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/35.15

Am I interpreting this correctly? The inevitable prosecution is going to argue this was using "deadly physical force" (35.15.2) with a duty to retreat since other people had already (safely) moved to a different subway car and the defendant could have as well (since he was able to sneak up behind the guy).


The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or
about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the
actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with
complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the
necessity of so doing by retreating;

Was this guy a tourist or a resident? I've never been to NY but the difference between Duty To Retreat states and Stand Your Ground states seems like something worth pondering. It sounds like any fight you're in while in NY should include at least some attempt at satisfying the "duty to retreat" requirement since you probably won't know until after the fact whether the force you're using is "deadly physical force".

[NWshooter]

“no puedo respirar”

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Being training in a martial art, may not be a good thing as you should know the lethal aspects of your actions. I've read some lawyer stuff on trained folks liability. Buried in some folder, somewhere... Didn't we have a thread on the problems of the hold from experts?

Harks back to Goetz? In that case, the young men were presented as definitely threatened him.

Also in this case, there were two other men helping to restrain him, which might argue for releasing the hold.

The evaluation has just started.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Investigation and outrage: https://nypost.com/2023/05/03/manhattan-da-mulling-charges-against-vigilante-in-subway-death/

[WobblyPossum]

Investigation and outrage: https://nypost.com/2023/05/03/manhattan-da-mulling-charges-against-vigilante-in-subway-death/

That article said the kid held the choke for 15 minutes. If this kid doesn’t end up in prison in the end, I’ll be quite surprised.

[parishioner]

It's already being widely described as a "lynching".

The marine is toast.

Stay out of large cities if possible.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Years ago, I went to Boston with a buddy. We stayed in a dive hotel next to a porno theater as it was cheap. We went to eat in a disreputable dinner for breakfast. It had no tables, just counters. A guy got up and started to yell: There is no service here. There is only service for people who get free sex!

We looked around for the free sex - didn't see. No one cared that the dude was yelling. He left. No chokes.

I agree that the choker is screwed and probably deserved as the incident didn't merit lethal force. Yeah, I lived in NYC, took the subways from third grade on and saw lots of strange things. Got mugged as a kid at knife point.

[Clusterfrack]

I wonder if the passerby had legit BJJ skills or just saw a few UFC fights.

The RNC is an incredibly useful tool, but any choke is dangerous if one is not able to recognize when someone's out. They may still make noise or thrash around a bit when unconscious. They won't always close their eyes either. Really freaky to see sometimes



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Last month, I RNCed a guy who really didn’t want to tap. Then he started snoring.

[Joe Mac]

Setting aside the fact that it didn't seem the time to go hands-on yet, using the LVNR anywhere that police are prohibited from using it (i.e. most blue cities) is absolute idiocy. Dude is screwed, and brought it on himself.

[Totem Polar]

Others have covered it. The marine dude is fucked. He's almost certainly going to prison. All us combatives folks need to pay heed and watch this one play out. JMO

[jh9]

Years ago, I went to Boston with a buddy. We stayed in a dive hotel next to a porno theater as it was cheap. We went to eat in a disreputable dinner for breakfast. It had no tables, just counters. A guy got up and started to yell: There is no service here. There is only service for people who get free sex!

We looked around for the free sex - didn't see. No one cared that the dude was yelling. He left. No chokes.

Yeah, anyone who's lived in a big city for even a little while has seen that sort of thing play out numerous times.

That was something that shook out of the LTC class: a large number of people have a very peculiar notion of what they can legally do to other people under the slimmest pretext. The instructor basically spent the classroom portion showing youtube videos, asking people "yes or no was this justified?" and when people kept giving tepid "yes" answers he dissected how they in fact weren't justified and made a point to note the guilty verdict and how long they were likely going to spend in prison. I don't think it took.

This is the reason manslaughter laws exist. You can't do this shit.

[WobblyPossum]

It's already being widely described as a "lynching".

The marine is toast.

Stay out of large cities if possible.

I don’t think this is an example of a “large cities” problem. The publicly available evidence shows a guy initiating a physical confrontation with someone who was only being verbally aggressive. The initiator then applies a choke hold for what’s being reported as “15 minutes” which is likely going to be considered deadly force even in jurisdictions and agencies that still authorize strangulation techniques as a lower-than-deadly-force option. This case reminds me of the incident in which a woman with a CCW fired at a car being driven by a misdemeanor retail theft suspect. She got lucky no one was hurt and managed to get out with losing her CCW and not prison time. In a follow up interview, the woman said “I’m never helping anyone again.” That lady thought using deadly force against a misdemeanor theft suspect who hadn’t attempted to hurt anyone was a good thing to do. Our “hero” in this incident straight up killed a crazy dude who was only yelling at other passengers. He probably thought he was “helping” too. I don’t know how much time you’ve spent on NYC subways, but it’s actually not completely unusual for homeless people with untreated mental illnesses to just start yelling at people and wildly gesticulating with their arms. 99 times out of 100, they then walk away muttering to themselves. You just ignore them because it’s not appropriate to go hands on with them unless it’s that 1 out of 100 that actually becomes assaultive. Guy started a fight and ended up killing his opponent. I’m willing to bet that gets you prison time in even the most conservative small town.

[jetfire]

I feel like this is pretty cut and dried, right? A RNC absolutely has the potential to be deadly force, and definitely qualifies as a level of force higher than pepper spray. Did this bum meet the threshold for any level of force? Based on only the information I have seen, no. This is largely the same to me as "gun people" who shoot someone for ringing their doorbell because "I wuz afraid for muh life"

[camel]

A quote from the article posted before.

“None of us who were there thought he was in danger of dying,” Vasquez told The Post Tuesday. “We thought he just passed out or ran out of air.”

That’s some stupid shit.

[45dotACP]

I feel like this is pretty cut and dried, right? A RNC absolutely has the potential to be deadly force, and definitely qualifies as a level of force higher than pepper spray. Did this bum meet the threshold for any level of force? Based on only the information I have seen, no. This is largely the same to me as "gun people" who shoot someone for ringing their doorbell because "I wuz afraid for muh life"

I am not the first one, the smartest one, or even the best-looking BJJ guy who has said that the best base for an unarmed self-defense system is probably wrestling and not BJJ.

Don't get me wrong, BJJ is terrific. I love and practice the art as frequently as I am able. And having moves to end a confrontation are great...in a specific context and if used right.

But assuming dude slapped a Kimura on this homeless guy and ripped his shoulder into three. Yeah, that is also unjustifiable.

If you wanna control someone...it helps to get them to the ground. The way to do that is wrestling.....or Judo if you're a fuckin weeb (lol jk love Judo).

The best way to hold an unarmed, but resisting opponent on the ground but not finish them with a crippling injury or kill them by holding a choke too long is probably some form of top or back pin.

Also wrestling. Although BJJ brings some very useful concepts to the table as it relates to back control that some wrestling arts lack

Maybe if he double legged and took mount and grapevined the homeless guy, the dude would still get an assault charge...but I bet that's a whole lot better than what's undoubtedly coming out of the New York District Attorney's office soon(tm)

Coulda woulda shoulda. This whole case is dumb.

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[JohnO]

NYPD is not allowed to apply choke holds. Therefore lowly civilians certainly can not.

Mind you own business. Don’t get involved with anyone else no matter what! No good deed goes unpunished.

Blend in.

[BillSWPA]

I am not the first one, the smartest one, or even the best-looking BJJ guy who has said that the best base for an unarmed self-defense system is probably wrestling and not BJJ.

Don't get me wrong, BJJ is terrific. I love and practice the art as frequently as I am able. And having moves to end a confrontation are great...in a specific context and if used right.

But assuming dude slapped a Kimura on this homeless guy and ripped his shoulder into three. Yeah, that is also unjustifiable.

If you wanna control someone...it helps to get them to the ground. The way to do that is wrestling.....or Judo if you're a fuckin weeb (lol jk love Judo).

The best way to hold an unarmed, but resisting opponent on the ground but not finish them with a crippling injury or kill them by holding a choke too long is probably some form of top or back pin.

Also wrestling. Although BJJ brings some very useful concepts to the table as it relates to back control that some wrestling arts lack

Maybe if he double legged and took mount and grapevined the homeless guy, the dude would still get an assault charge...but I bet that's a whole lot better than what's undoubtedly coming out of the New York District Attorney's office soon(tm)

Coulda woulda shoulda. This whole case is dumb.

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All good points.

As a former high school wrestler, one bad habit I had to break during MMA classes was trying to get into a position where I was on all fours when someone else was on top of me. In a wrestling match, there are a number of good options from this position to get on top. In MMA, it is of course a very good way to expose oneself to a choke.

The goal in wrestling is of course a pin, holding the opponent’s shoulder blades against the mat. In a street confrontation, I would much rather work my way behind the person I am trying to restrain, and stay there, regardless of whether we are standing or on the ground.

Once differences like this are overcome, I agree that it is a good background. I certainly learned a few things in MMA that I wish I knew in my wrestling days.

[Joe in PNG]

Sometimes, the "not my monkeys, not my circus" lesson is the hardest one to take to heart.
People on the internet might think you are some sort of soiboi cuck if you don't put a righteous thrashing on those miscreants!

[Ed L]

Looking at this another way--New York City has had a rash of crazy people attacking other people as well as violent people attacking other people without provocation.

These citizens were travelling in the subway car and a guy "starts screaming in an aggressive manner. He screamed that he had no food, he had no drink, that he was tired and doesn’t care if he goes to jail. He threw garbage at passengers and threatened them. Then he took off his jacket, and threw it on the ground.”

Typically when someone takes off a jacket in an angry manner and throws it on the ground, it means that they are about to attack someone.

The guy who put the choke on him probably believed that this was a crazy who was about to attack someone exactly as he had read of and seen in reports. He felt he had to stop him so he threw the choke on the crazy guy. If he only he knew what he was doing and used it to get the man under control until the other people came to hold him down it would have been a different story. Still, it opens the door to all types of dangers.



A quote from the article posted before.

“None of us who were there thought he was in danger of dying,” Vasquez told The Post Tuesday. “We thought he just passed out or ran out of air.”

And what happens to people who run out of air? A bunch of future medical school students here.

[Ed L]

And the latest, the Medical examiner rules Jordan Neely’s death a homicide after subway choking. Not at all surprising. I expect the NY Atty General to move aggressively against the person who applied the chokehold given everything that happened, the nature of the NY Atty General's office, and the fact that this is turning into a racial incident.

https://nypost.com/2023/05/03/medical-examiner-rules-jordan-neelys-death-a-homicide-after-subway-choking/

"Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck (chokehold)” and the manner constituted a homicide, the medical examiner determined Wednesday afternoon."

Jordan Neely, the deceased, had “numerous” arrests on his record, including for drugs, disorderly conduct, and fare beating. At the time of his death, he had a warrant out for his arrest in a November 2021 case where he was accused of assaulting a 67-year-old woman in the East Village, the sources said."

At the time of his death the deceased had been living on the streets and had a history of mental illness. But he was certainly not the harmless mentally ill person that some accounts seem to be trying suggest.

Given everything we know about the deceased and the situation, it looked like if the guy had not choked him, he would have violently attacked people in the subway car. By the same token the amount of force used against the deceased at that instant it was used and the continuation of the choke once the deceased was unconscious was not justified. In the video there is a point where the people in the subway car have the deceased under control and he is still moving and breathing. At which point the person applying the chokehold should have stopped and moved to restraining him.

I found a video of a few critical moments of the incident that is not part of news coverage. You can see the point where the deceased is still conscious but under control.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExA7hMbpNQU

[BillSWPA]

Ed L makes some good points. While the marine might not have known everything about the nutcase’s history, he saw more than enough so that nonlethal intervention was justified. If he had taken the nutcase to the ground and held him there without causing serious harm, he would be fine. He certainly did not see enough to justify a chokehold.

Whether intervention was wise at that point is a separate issue. NY is a mess because the people there voted for the people who made it a mess. They indirectly created the situation wherein it is not wise for someone to help them when a nutcase appears likely to attack. That should be remembered when deciding whether and when to put oneself in physical and legal jeopardy to help them.

[DC_P]

And the latest, the Medical examiner rules Jordan Neely’s death a homicide after subway choking. Not at all surprising.

I have no medical or legal knowledge/training and a shoddy memory, but I think I remember reading somewhere at some point (maybe in all the George Floyd stuff?) that the medical examiner's determination of 'homicide' is simply death caused by another person and has no legal meaning. Not saying you are wrong about the person being charged, or that the media won't use that to convict him straight away.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The metaproblem is the failure to provide for the mentally ill as years ago we cut hospitalization and services. Granted some institutions were hell holes but deinstitutionalization was supposed to come with significant out patient services. That never happened. Then add all the things Bill mentioned.

This is gratuitous but after Floyd, applying choke holds should not be the go to for most.

[4RNR]

The metaproblem is the failure to provide for the mentally ill as years ago we cut hospitalization and services. Granted some institutions were hell holes but deinstitutionalization was supposed to come with significant out patient services. That never happened. Then add all the things Bill mentioned.

This is gratuitous but after Floyd, applying choke holds should not be the go to for most.Yea....."outpatient" is exactly the right word. Here, back in late 80s - early 90s an institution closed. Those patients who didn't have relatives and/or other arrangements were simply let out. And this was the "suburbia" part of the city. Fortunately none of the patients were violent, and there were very few of them. They simply stayed on the sidewalk or medium with a HELP sign. It was very cruel imo. These people didn't ask to be in this situation and didn't have the means or capacity to deal with it.

I don't know whatever happened to them but over the years you'd see less and less of them. I don't remember seeing any by the late 90s

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[MickAK]

A couple of things come to mind.

First is that sitting quietly while a mentally ill person assaults and terrorizes people that are smaller than weaker than you because you are worried about legal or personal consequences is one way to approach things, I guess.

Second some of the comments here show a lack of familiarity with how these things play out outside of training or LE. People rendered unconscious by carotid holds wake up, sometimes rather quickly. They are often not very familiar with how they got there and especially if they're mentally ill can be panicked and extremely difficult to restrain when they come to. I've dealt with mentally ill people being violent on public transportation in West Coast cities multiple times. There aren't any easy answers to dealing with it.

Such people bite. Restraining people is very difficult as our forum LEOs have pointed out in many threads. Restraining a violent mentally ill person by yourself or with a couple untrained helpers is difficult and dangerous to everyone involved. The alternative of sitting there and trying to ignore an innocent, often smaller or weaker or elderly person being assaulted is not really a productive conversation IMO.

[jetfire]

A couple of things come to mind.

First is that sitting quietly while a mentally ill person assaults and terrorizes people that are smaller than weaker than you because you are worried about legal or personal consequences is one way to approach things, I guess.

Second some of the comments here show a lack of familiarity with how these things play out outside of training or LE. People rendered unconscious by carotid holds wake up, sometimes rather quickly. They are often not very familiar with how they got there and especially if they're mentally ill can be panicked and extremely difficult to restrain when they come to. I've dealt with mentally ill people being violent on public transportation in West Coast cities multiple times. There aren't any easy answers to dealing with it.

Such people bite. Restraining people is very difficult as our forum LEOs have pointed out in many threads. Restraining a violent mentally ill person by yourself or with a couple untrained helpers is difficult and dangerous to everyone involved. The alternative of sitting there and trying to ignore an innocent, often smaller or weaker or elderly person being assaulted is not really a productive conversation IMO.

Except no one was being physically assaulted yet.

I have to add that yet because I do think that if the nut job had gone physical with people, it would have then been possibly appropriate to step in.

Everyone has to decide where their own line to get involved in optional violence starts. In this day and age, if you're someone with a family at home, I wouldn't judge you at all harshly if you looked at an incident like this and thought "not my circus not my monkeys" and moved to another car. It's very hard to provide for your family, your first priority, when you're in prison for "assaulting" a homeless man that wasn't actually hurting anyone yet.

[MickAK]

Except no one was being physically assaulted yet.

That's true, but it's not very easy to watch somebody threaten and terrorize weaker, smaller, or elderly people because they want something either.



I have to add that yet because I do think that if the nut job had gone physical with people, it would have then been possibly appropriate to step in.

Everyone has to decide where their own line to get involved in optional violence starts. In this day and age, if you're someone with a family at home, I wouldn't judge you at all harshly if you looked at an incident like this and thought "not my circus not my monkeys" and moved to another car. It's very hard to provide for your family, your first priority, when you're in prison for "assaulting" a homeless man that wasn't actually hurting anyone yet.

I don't spend much time judging people. I stopped using public transportation for the most part because there were too many of these incidents. That didn't make them go away, and the old lady with medical conditions that has to take the bus because she's on a fixed income is probably still taking the bus. I hope somebody else steps up to help her, but I'm certainly not helping her by avoiding the problem entirely. So I'm not in much of a place to judge.

[BillSWPA]

The Internet has no shortage of pretend badassery and calling people cowards for not intervening, but not many offers to help with legal expenses, supporting one's family, etc. if one's intervention gets one arrested and fired.

I am currently the sole breadwinner for my family, and if I am sitting in jail while my law practice tanks, more people than me will have a very different trajectory for their lives. Add to this the fact that most of the people on that train voted for the system that allowed the nutcase do do what he did and makes it potentially very costly to intervene even if one acts with perfection.

My wife and I have discussed these issues, and she is okay with my intervening if it is 100% obvious that the person I am helping is an innocent who needs help, keeping in mind that not everything is what it appears.

If I was on that train, I would not get involved because some nutcase is shooting his mouth off and throwing things. If it turns into a physical attack, robbery, etc., then the nutcase is going down. Note that my go point is far beyond legal justification, and to the point where ANY observer with two active brain cells will understand why I did whatever I did.

[Tuefelhunden]

The tragic irony is the would be good Samaritan (and I think that is what he is/was) acted prematurely and turned the tables on himself by going hands on assaulting and ultimately unintentionally killing the crazy guy. If he had waited until crazy committed an actual assault then this at the least would have very different optics if not different results.

He also could have verbally confronted crazy if he felt the need to insert himself directly into the situation and drawn his attention and possible pending assault upon himself and away from the others if he was that worried about violence breaking out. Good guy made a bad call in the moment and its a terrible situation for all involved. No good deed goes unpunished is right.

[WobblyPossum]

Some of you guys are definitely looking at this in a different light that I am. The way I see it, the homeless guy yelled at some people, threw his jacket on the ground, and then didn’t actually even attempt to go hands on with anyone. The news reports make it sound like numerous people who saw what this guy was doing chose to just move to another subway car. This kid not only chose to not walk away like a bunch of other reasonable people seemed to, he physically attacked the homeless guy. At the time he chose to attack the homeless guy, the homeless guy wasn’t being assaultive towards him or anyone specific. The homeless guy subsequently died as a direct result of this kid’s actions. In what world is this kid a hero here?

[Exiledviking]

I, for one, am curious to see what the toxicology report shows. IF they make it public. What a mess.

[bofe954]

The video I saw doesn't show much so I can't tell everything that went on, but I think after you choke or subdue someone and they are no longer moving...

It might be a good idea to check a pulse, see if they are breathing and consider CPR.

I'm not sure how the bystander that seemed to be moving homeless guy's arms around didn't pick up that he was out (or dead), but laying off the RNC here and there during the 15 minutes to see if the guy was still making purposeful movements would also seem to be helpful.

[camel]

I, for one, am curious to see what the toxicology report shows. IF they make it public. What a mess.

I really don’t understand the toxicology report request. Does it really matter with what we know about the event so far?

[Beast17]

The Internet has no shortage of pretend badassery and calling people cowards for not intervening, but not many offers to help with legal expenses, supporting one's family, etc. if one's intervention gets one arrested and fired.

I am currently the sole breadwinner for my family, and if I am sitting in jail while my law practice tanks, more people than me will have a very different trajectory for their lives. Add to this the fact that most of the people on that train voted for the system that allowed the nutcase do do what he did and makes it potentially very costly to intervene even if one acts with perfection.

My wife and I have discussed these issues, and she is okay with my intervening if it is 100% obvious that the person I am helping is an innocent who needs help, keeping in mind that not everything is what it appears.

If I was on that train, I would not get involved because some nutcase is shooting his mouth off and throwing things. If it turns into a physical attack, robbery, etc., then the nutcase is going down. Note that my go point is far beyond legal justification, and to the point where ANY observer with two active brain cells will understand why I did whatever I did.

Quoted because this deserves more than a like.

[DMF13]

At the time of his death the deceased had been living on the streets and had a history of mental illness. But he was certainly not the harmless mentally ill person that some accounts seem to be trying suggest.

Given everything we know about the deceased and the situation, it looked like if the guy had not choked him, he would have violently attacked people in the subway car.
Use of force is judged by what the person using that force knew at the time.

It's unlikely the guy applying the choke knew any of what I quoted, and therefore it would be irrelevant to determining whether the use of force was justified.

[Totem Polar]

Like many Bari Weiss productions, this one is worth a quick read:

https://www.thefp.com/p/daniel-penny-jordan-neely-and-vigilante-justice?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=260347&post_id=121688696&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email

On May 1, Jordan Neely, a mentally ill homeless man, was choked to death by subway rider and former Marine Daniel Penny. It is a tragic and controversial case that has divided the country. Many on the left are calling for Penny to be charged with murder after he put Neely into a fatal chokehold for behaving in a threatening, and possibly dangerous, manner. On the right, many are hailing Penny, who was charged with manslaughter on Friday, as a hero for protecting his fellow passengers at a time when crime in the city is on the rise.

Kat Rosenfield, meanwhile, has written a brilliant piece for UnHerd that explores our collective hypocrisy over different types of crime, particularly in our post-MeToo era. Why, she asks, should women accept serious violence on the subway, or even the threat of it, and at the same time be expected to hold a policy of zero tolerance toward any kind of sexual harassment? As she writes: “If you argue that a woman can be traumatized by bawdy humor in the office or awkward come-ons in a bar, surely you would agree that she’s entitled to be fearful when trapped underground on a metal tube with an erratically behaving stranger twice her size.”

She raises many important points in her piece, which we are reprinting below. —BW

[Clusterfrack]

Like many Bari Weiss productions, this one is worth a quick read:

https://www.thefp.com/p/daniel-penny-jordan-neely-and-vigilante-justice?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=260347&post_id=121688696&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email

On May 1, Jordan Neely, a mentally ill homeless man, was choked to death by subway rider and former Marine Daniel Penny. It is a tragic and controversial case that has divided the country. Many on the left are calling for Penny to be charged with murder after he put Neely into a fatal chokehold for behaving in a threatening, and possibly dangerous, manner. On the right, many are hailing Penny, who was charged with manslaughter on Friday, as a hero for protecting his fellow passengers at a time when crime in the city is on the rise.

Kat Rosenfield, meanwhile, has written a brilliant piece for UnHerd that explores our collective hypocrisy over different types of crime, particularly in our post-MeToo era. Why, she asks, should women accept serious violence on the subway, or even the threat of it, and at the same time be expected to hold a policy of zero tolerance toward any kind of sexual harassment? As she writes: “If you argue that a woman can be traumatized by bawdy humor in the office or awkward come-ons in a bar, surely you would agree that she’s entitled to be fearful when trapped underground on a metal tube with an erratically behaving stranger twice her size.”

She raises many important points in her piece, which we are reprinting below. —BW

Excellent article

[mmc45414]

Excellent articleRead this morning.

One thing about this case is he has already enough GFM donations to put together a better defense team than Orenthal James.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230516/06247f5eb989a74d09c02fb6b10e2567.jpg

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[Totem Polar]

More from the Weiss concern:

https://www.thefp.com/p/daniel-penny-the-killing-of-jordan-neely?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=260347&post_id=126672805&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email