San Francisco Beating: Charges Dropped

[Dog Guy]

If you're wondering how far things have deteriorated in San Francisco...
You'll especially love the next to last sentence in the story.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-drops-case-against-145629569.html

"Brittany Bernstein
Wed, April 26, 2023 at 7:56 AM PDT·2 min read

The San Francisco district attorney’s office on Tuesday dropped the charges against a homeless man who allegedly attacked former San Francisco fire commissioner Don Carmignani earlier this month with a crowbar, sending him to the hospital for emergency surgery to treat a hole in the back of his skull.

The case was dropped after prosecutors concluded the attacker, Garrett Doty, was acting in self-defense when he beat Carmignani so badly that he broke the former fire commissioner’s jaw and left him in need of 50 stitches, the New York Post reported.

The incident began when Carmignani confronted Doty and two other vagrants who were allegedly blocking Carmignani’s mother’s driveway in the city’s Marina District while consuming drugs and harassing neighbors. His mother’s calls to 911 had gone unanswered.

During the confrontation, the trio refused to leave and Doty allegedly became aggressive. Carmignani then deployed pepper spray on Doty.

Because Carmignani sprayed Doty, the district attorney’s office has concluded the homeless man was acting in self-defense when he viciously attacked Carmignani, despite prosecutors having obtained video of the attacker taking the crowbar out of a garbage can and taking practice swings before the attack.

Video appears to show Doty cornering Carmignani, who was heavily bleeding, against the wall of a gas station store while brandishing a crowbar. Carmignani tried to fight back, but Doty struck him in the head with the crowbar when Carmignani went to wipe blood from his eyes.

Carmignani attempted to escape toward the road but Doty hit him in the head again and then chased him down the sidewalk, according to the report.

The attack left Carmignani in the ICU for several days.

While Doty was initially charged with assault with a deadly weapon, aggravated battery with serious bodily injury, and assault with force likely to produce great bodily injury, it may be Carmignani who now faces charges for spraying the pepper spray, according to the report.

Police and the district attorney’s office did not interview Carmignani about the incident before dropping the case, a source close to the victim told the paper.

[blues]

Stank-tuary City.

I used to love SF. I can't even imagine living under that sort of regime.

[WobblyPossum]

What the actual fuck?

[HeavyDuty]

Absolutely insane.

[Joe in PNG]

There's times I hope that people are writing this stuff down on durable materials, so that when future historians look back on our crazy age, they won't have to guess.

[JRB]

If you're wondering how far things have deteriorated in San Francisco...
You'll especially love the next to last sentence in the story.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-drops-case-against-145629569.html

"Brittany Bernstein
Wed, April 26, 2023 at 7:56 AM PDT·2 min read

The San Francisco district attorney’s office on Tuesday dropped the charges against a homeless man who allegedly attacked former San Francisco fire commissioner Don Carmignani earlier this month with a crowbar, sending him to the hospital for emergency surgery to treat a hole in the back of his skull.

The case was dropped after prosecutors concluded the attacker, Garrett Doty, was acting in self-defense when he beat Carmignani so badly that he broke the former fire commissioner’s jaw and left him in need of 50 stitches, the New York Post reported.

The incident began when Carmignani confronted Doty and two other vagrants who were allegedly blocking Carmignani’s mother’s driveway in the city’s Marina District while consuming drugs and harassing neighbors. His mother’s calls to 911 had gone unanswered.

During the confrontation, the trio refused to leave and Doty allegedly became aggressive. Carmignani then deployed pepper spray on Doty.

Because Carmignani sprayed Doty, the district attorney’s office has concluded the homeless man was acting in self-defense when he viciously attacked Carmignani, despite prosecutors having obtained video of the attacker taking the crowbar out of a garbage can and taking practice swings before the attack.

Video appears to show Doty cornering Carmignani, who was heavily bleeding, against the wall of a gas station store while brandishing a crowbar. Carmignani tried to fight back, but Doty struck him in the head with the crowbar when Carmignani went to wipe blood from his eyes.

Carmignani attempted to escape toward the road but Doty hit him in the head again and then chased him down the sidewalk, according to the report.

The attack left Carmignani in the ICU for several days.

While Doty was initially charged with assault with a deadly weapon, aggravated battery with serious bodily injury, and assault with force likely to produce great bodily injury, it may be Carmignani who now faces charges for spraying the pepper spray, according to the report.

Police and the district attorney’s office did not interview Carmignani about the incident before dropping the case, a source close to the victim told the paper.

Are they honestly *trying* to get regular honest people to go full Michael Douglas in Falling Down?

I can't imagine any other motivation or logic for the legal system to work like that.

[Totem Polar]

What the actual fuck?

This

[Suvorov]

Paradise Lost!

Not the first great city to fall.

Sometimes I feel like I’m watching a Dark Knight movie.

But I’m not. 😌

[Joe in PNG]

Paradise Lost!

Not the first great city to fall.

Sometimes I feel like I’m watching a Dark Knight movie.

But I’m not. 😌

I would say that it's more akin to "Escape from New York".

[TheNewbie]

This is the natural consequences of the choices we are making. The virus will spread beyond the borders of places like San Francisco.


We can stop it, but will we choose to do so?

[Tabasco]

"Those who the Gods wish to destroy, they first make crazy."

[1911Nut]

We can stop it, but will we choose to do so?[/QUOTE]

This, folks, is a question that applies to more stuff going on in our country today than I think can be enumerated.

Being the pessimist that I am, I fear the answer is shaping up to be "No".

[camel]

This is the natural consequences of the choices we are making. The virus will spread beyond the borders of places like San Francisco.


We can stop it, but will we choose to do so?

Individuals just being more authoritative about their local government. Sure. We can get to that point. And supplying jobs. But we are a long way off from that.

[TheNewbie]

Individuals just being more authoritative about their local government. Sure. We can get to that point. And supplying jobs. But we are a long way off from that.

I don’t think you are correct, but I hope you are.

[camel]

I don’t think you are correct, but I hope you are.

Have to start somewhere. When you are bifurcated by the next big election but the biggest you can change is a small one on issues like local crime. As long as the facts of the case are true. it’s really hard for local seats of government when only a small minority show up with issues but the voting power goes one way. So they listen to their constituents. Just be a constituent. There’s a lot of jade thrown around. But as I have said before. It’s a community of us to get together.

[Mercworx]

There's times I hope that people are writing this stuff down on durable materials, so that when future historians look back on our crazy age, they won't have to guess.



That’s assuming future historians have integrity. Likely they will be offspring of todays education system.

[Joe in PNG]

That’s assuming future historians have integrity. Likely they will be offspring of todays education system.

That's a far more optimistic assessment of how long our current stupid culture is going to last than I have. This stupid culture cannot and will not continue.

The truth of the matter is we'll end up like old Rome- collapsed, and with people using our stupidity as a warning for the next few hundreds of years.

[Caballoflaco]

Well that decision didn’t last long.

https://nypost.com/2023/04/26/san-francisco-district-attorney-u-turns-on-crowbar-attack-charges/

San Francisco prosecutors made an abrupt about-face on Wednesday and said they will now move ahead with charging a vagrant who beat a former fire commissioner with a crowbar — after The Post revealed they were quietly trying to drop the case.

The District Attorney’s new spin comes one day after prosecutors reportedly decided transient Garrett Doty was acting in self-defense when he cracked the skull of former commissioner Don Carmignani on April 5 and informed him they would be dropping the charges.

Eta: Looks like camel ‘s advice might have worked in this case.

[Dog Guy]

Well, that's unexpected good news.
They had a case a few months back where a shop owner sprayed a homeless female with a garden hose after repeated attempts to get her to move along failed. She had been around for days, often in his alcove. "Unkempt" and aggressive to passers by. He had called the police and the city as had neighboring merchants and got no help. He even offered her help and was refused. The spraying was caught on video so he was charged and arrested. Not cited; not booked and released OR; arrested with bail required.
I didn't expect a reversal in this case. I thought the city's message that the homeless are sacrosanct was too powerful.

[Kanye Wyoming]

Well that decision didn’t last long.


San Francisco prosecutors made an abrupt about-face on Wednesday and said they will now move ahead with charging a vagrant who beat a former fire commissioner with a crowbar — after The Post revealed they were quietly trying to drop the case.

The District Attorney’s new spin comes one day after prosecutors reportedly decided transient Garrett Doty was acting in self-defense when he cracked the skull of former commissioner Don Carmignani on April 5 and informed him they would be dropping the charges.

https://nypost.com/2023/04/26/san-francisco-district-attorney-u-turns-on-crowbar-attack-charges/
Utah Realtors Association hardest hit.

[FrankB]

We have to remember that Inspector Harry Callahan said San Francisco had gone soft on crime in the early 1970’s.

[Coyotesfan97]

And they’ll be surprised when the San Francisco Committee of Vigilance starts again.

[Joe in PNG]

And they’ll be surprised when the San Francisco Committee of Vigilance starts again.

Or worse.

Part of the social contract is that the government takes care of taking care of criminals so the public doesn't feel the need for lynch mobs.

Sadly, too many of our officials have been programmed by the Marxist mind virus- and yes, much of the theory underpinning modern social justice is spawned from Marxism. The idea here being that the collapse of the current system will trigger the Revolution at long last.

[paherne]

And they’ll be surprised when the San Francisco Committee of Vigilance starts again.

Nope. Not gonna happen. Sf is populated with tech bros and soy boys. Not this victim, of course, he's a native. But, there's too few of them. My daughter was at a party in SF this weekend of about 20 young folks. She was the only one from the area.

[Kanye Wyoming]

Your child, a graduate of the Cornell School of Hotel Administration, is weighing two job offers. One is Assistant Manager of the Hilton San Francisco Union Square. The other is Assistant Manager of the Hyatt Regency Cape Town.

Purchasing power of the respective salaries is the same, benefits the same, career advancement prospects the same, everything is more or less the same. Based on safety considerations, which offer would you prefer they accept?

[paherne]

Your child, a graduate of the Cornell School of Hotel Administration, is weighing two job offers. One is Assistant Manager of the Hilton San Francisco Union Square. The other is Assistant Manager of the Hyatt Regency Cape Town.

Purchasing power of the respective salaries is the same, benefits the same, career advancement prospects the same, everything is more or less the same. Based on safety considerations, which offer would you prefer they accept?

SF. They'll have a bunch of retired cops as security.

[okie john]

This is the natural consequences of the choices we are making. The virus will spread beyond the borders of places like San Francisco.

Yes, up to a point. Wyoming, Arizona, and similar places may turn the wave back. Beyond that, night gathers, and now my watch begins.


Okie John

[idahojess]

Your child, a graduate of the Cornell School of Hotel Administration, is weighing two job offers. One is Assistant Manager of the Hilton San Francisco Union Square. The other is Assistant Manager of the Hyatt Regency Cape Town.

Purchasing power of the respective salaries is the same, benefits the same, career advancement prospects the same, everything is more or less the same. Based on safety considerations, which offer would you prefer they accept?

Is the LSAT an option?

[Ed L]

I have seen references to news reports that the San Francisco DAQ in planning on bringing charges against the victim for using pepper spray to defend himself against the attacker.

[Clusterfrack]

As the Lebowski said, new shit has come to light--a lot of ins, a lot of outs, a lot of what-have-yous....

Former SF fire commissioner attacked with pipe accused of using bear spray on homeless people
https://www.ktvu.com/news/attack-charges-to-be-dropped-draft

https://twitter.com/BrooksKTVU/status/1651357475529191424/photo/1

[Lex Luthier]

As the Lebowski said, new shit has come to light--a lot of ins, a lot of outs, a lot of what-have-yous....

Former SF fire commissioner attacked with pipe accused of using bear spray on homeless people
https://www.ktvu.com/news/attack-charges-to-be-dropped-draft

https://twitter.com/BrooksKTVU/status/1651357475529191424/photo/1

As usual, the FUD aspects are being trotted out...we'll never know if any of this stuff is really true, from either side.

However, I put a little more credence in the sorts of things that AMC has been telling us for the past how-many years, and the actions taken so far by the DA gybes with his accounts.

The former fire commissioner *could* be a putz who spritzes people with bear spray; but that makes me wonder if the city authorities knew that and were waiting for a politically advantageous time to take him down, rather than protecting the smelly-but-not-deserving-of-eye-irritation folks who may have gotten spritzed in the first place.

[AMC]

A major factor in charging decisions for any DAs office, in reality, is the makeup of the local jury pool. SF juries are notorious for being full of hippy-dippy, soft-hearted and soft-headed bliss nannies. The DAs office in SF always takes that into account. Cases that are slam dunk convictions in almost any county in California are 49%-51% in favor of acquittal sometimes in SF. Having an uncooperative victim will really tilt the DAs calculus.

I have no idea if the Fire Commisioner is that kind of victim, or a jerk who started the fight himself. But I've dealt with that dynamic on multiple occasions. I'm also of the opinion that DA Jenkins, while infinitely better than the Batman Villain she replaced, is not quite ready for prime time. Not necessarily in core competence, but in necessary experience. But I could be proven wrong. Chesa chased away a lot of good, experienced staff prosecutors as well.

The SFPD is imploding, and is see no realistic path towards stopping, much less reversing the damage. Governor Hairgels recent decision to deploy the CHP and the National Guard to SF to help with the 'fentanyl crisis' is just one more step in the process. Funny, I thought leftists were against the militarization of Law Enforcement? Then there's the new state law that removes the citizenship requirement for police officers in California, and only requires a federal work permit....which seems to be being given to most of the people illegally crossing the southern border right now. I know a couple of northern California agencies who have already jumped on this exciting hiring opportunity. So much for 'police legitimacy' when you're openly hiring foreign criminal mercenaries.

Like I said before, 'Abolish' always really meant 'Replace'. Good luck in District 12, and may the odds be ever in your favor!

[Totem Polar]

How about we just charge both of them for whatever harms they are proven to have done? Might be a novel idea in the bay area, but it works for me.

[AMC]

SF. They'll have a bunch of retired cops as security.

Truth!

[feudist]

Your child, a graduate of the Cornell School of Hotel Administration, is weighing two job offers. One is Assistant Manager of the Hilton San Francisco Union Square. The other is Assistant Manager of the Hyatt Regency Cape Town.

Purchasing power of the respective salaries is the same, benefits the same, career advancement prospects the same, everything is more or less the same. Based on safety considerations, which offer would you prefer they accept?

SF. That way they don't have the ocean to their back and can escape to Free America overland.

[Suvorov]

. Funny, I thought leftists were against the militarization of Law Enforcement?

Only until they realize the can use their “army” against their opponents.

[Stephanie B]

I have seen references to news reports that the San Francisco DAQ in planning on bringing charges against the victim for using pepper spray to defend himself against the attacker.

And I have seen news reports that the "victim" bear-sprayed the drifter who defended himself against the attacker. And that the "victim" has allegedly used bear spray on other vagrants who were committing the egregious crime of sleeping on the sidewalk.

[JRB]

It's interesting to see how the narrative changed as the pending charges changed. Everyone's defending themselves against everyone else, it was a defensive weapon or it was a premeditated attempted murder, it was pepper spray, it was bear spray.

All this is telling me is that an otherwise honest taxpayer is guaranteed to lose in SF's legal system.

[cheby]

And I have seen news reports that the "victim" bear-sprayed the drifter who defended himself against the attacker. And that the "victim" has allegedly used bear spray on other vagrants who were committing the egregious crime of sleeping on the sidewalk.

I am wondering when the last time you visited SF or Portland.
Here is Portland:

https://twitter.com/therealfarley/status/1650674835029397504?s=46&t=u7iuZi-NUu8cwNI5viLOdw

[AMC]

I am wondering when the last time you visited SF or Portland.
Here is Portland:

https://twitter.com/therealfarley/status/1650674835029397504?s=46&t=u7iuZi-NUu8cwNI5viLOdw

That could just as well be 8th and Market in SF.....on a Sunday morning.

[whomever]

And I have seen news reports that the "victim" bear-sprayed the drifter who defended himself against the attacker.

I hunted down the video. It doesn't include the start of the incident, so it doesn't offer insight into who started things. But crowbar-man chasing bleeding spray-man down the sidewalk to administer the coup de grace doesn't look like justifiable force to me.

[Stephanie B]

I am wondering when the last time you visited SF or Portland.
Here is Portland:

https://twitter.com/therealfarley/status/1650674835029397504?s=46&t=u7iuZi-NUu8cwNI5viLOdw

Seriously, who gives a rat's ass? I commented that there are differing accounts of what transpired and you reply with something about Portland?

Did Perp #1 assault Perp #2 with a crowbar, and so Perp #2 defended himself by spraying Perp #1 with bear spray? Or did Perp #2 assault Perp #1 with bear spray, and so Perp #1 defended himself by hitting Perp #2 with a crowbar?

That, dear sir, are the relevant questions. It matters not to the questions at hand what is going on in Portland. Or what the homeless problem is in San Francisco.

If it turns out that there are serious questions as to which was the actual chain of events, and if it turns out that there is a reasonable question as to whether or not Perp #1 has been spraying homeless people, I would expect that the DA is going to toss the charges.

[camel]

Question if anybody knows. What’s the legality in normal instances of using bear spray on a person in place of pepper spray?

[whomever]

Question if anybody knows. What’s the legality in normal instances of using bear spray on a person in place of pepper spray?

IANAL, but I'll go ahead and embarrass myself:

First, the pedantic part: my memory says ours used to be labeled like all pesticides, something like 'It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with the label' or something like that. So, in theory, even if you used it on a gang of crazed machete wielding MS-13 hitmen, the EPA could go after you for violating whatever regulation. That seems really farfetched to me. Also, I checked our current can and it doesn't have that warning, or I wasn't squinting hard enough. It does note that permanent eye damage is a possibility if sprayed directly in the eyes, which might put it higher up the force continuum than people spray.
Which brings us to...

Second: The law of self defense doesn't really have specific prescriptions about tools and methodology. The force you use must be reasonable, proportionate, and so on. If, for example, you are justified in shooting someone center mass, you can probably also hit them with a bat, run them over with a bulldozer, push them out the window, or whatever. What you do gets measured against the reasonable/proportionate/etc tests, whether it is shooting, spraying with bear spray, or dropping an anvil on them.

Down the scale from lethal force, I would say bear spray and people spray were equivalent, except for 1)that mention of eye damage and 2)you might also want to consider what a jury might think.

Practically speaking, I'd use people spray if justified and available. If I thought it sufficient, I'd use bear spray before shooting. I've gotten down wind of bear spray (when ours expires we practice with it, and it doesn't take much of an eddy to bring it back on you), and while it's not fun I would sure rather be sprayed than shot.

FWIW, the advice for what to do if your hiking buddy and a bear are wrestling is: spray the heck out of the both of them. The advice if you are down being chewed on is just spray around everywhere so you and the bear are enveloped in the cloud. So ISTM it has to be lower on the continuum than shooting.

[Cookie Monster]

Question if anybody knows. What’s the legality in normal instances of using bear spray on a person in place of pepper spray?


Unsure but I have given my wildlife and forestry crews bear spray for human application for a long time. But given, they are out in the woods and have a better context for having the spray on head and were often young, smaller, pretty ladies who I felt would be given a pass for hosing down a dirtbag with it. I always gave them the family size 10 oz can, live training often got spicy.

[TAZ]

Yes, up to a point. Wyoming, Arizona, and similar places may turn the wave back. Beyond that, night gathers, and now my watch begins.


Okie John

This COULD be true, if it were not for the fact the imbeciles who voted for this crap often flee the areas they destroyed and set the stage for the next destruction with their SAME voting habits.

I find it kind of ironic that just a bit back we had a member of the Mensa club run an article about how folks should be using bear spray on home invaders instead of guns. Doesn't sound like it works as well Mensa man thinks.

Even if the fire commissioner guy wrongly attacked an ever peaceful homeless dude with the evil bear spray, once they disengaged the follow up coup de gras was illegal use of lethal force and not a self defense situation. Isn't that what we often preach when it comes to guns?? Why would that not be applicable to crow bars or other weapons??

[Tapatio]

Having witnessed SF's descent into lawless zombie horror movie madness personally, there's more to this story than the simple narrative many have heard.

Things have gotten, um, complicated, in true San Francisco fashion. The victim refused to be interviewed by police, and didn't show up for a hearing against his attacker for a second time. As others have pointed out, victim is now being accused of being a bear-spraying vigilante who preys on the unhoused.

DA says they can't prosecute without a cooperating victim.

Say what you want about the news source I'm linking, they frequently have solid insights into the goings-on in America's Craziest City.

https://missionlocal.org/2023/04/don-carmignani-ex-fire-commissioner-attack-metal-rod-homeless-person-bear-spray-court/

[okie john]

Even if the fire commissioner guy wrongly attacked an ever peaceful homeless dude with the evil bear spray, once they disengaged the follow up coup de gras was illegal use of lethal force and not a self defense situation. Isn't that what we often preach when it comes to guns?? Why would that not be applicable to crow bars or other weapons??

Not when it comes to a member of a protected class in the City of San Francisco.


Okie John

[DDTSGM]

And I have seen news reports that the "victim" bear-sprayed the drifter who defended himself against the attacker. And that the "victim" has allegedly used bear spray on other vagrants who were committing the egregious crime of sleeping on the sidewalk.


I am wondering when the last time you visited SF or Portland.
Here is Portland:

https://twitter.com/therealfarley/status/1650674835029397504?s=46&t=u7iuZi-NUu8cwNI5viLOdw


Seriously, who gives a rat's ass?

Pretty sure you opened the door for that one with the loaded statement egregious crime of sleeping on the sidewalk.

Otherwise, I think you nailed the essence of the situation.

[DDTSGM]

Unsure but I have given my wildlife and forestry crews bear spray for human application for a long time. But given, they are out in the woods and have a better context for having the spray on head and were often young, smaller, pretty ladies who I felt would be given a pass for hosing down a dirtbag with it. I always gave them the family size 10 oz can, live training often got spicy.

Good for you.

When our KDWAP armed their rangers/wardens with OC it was the Mark 2's (7-10 one second bursts). Since one of the reasons OC fails - the primary one IMO - is that the sprayer doesn't get enough OC in the sprayee's face, eyes, nose and mouth, a Mark 2, is IMO, good for maybe two people. A little small for officers in the park setting answering calls on Saturday night in the campgrounds.

[Hambo]

And I have seen news reports that the "victim" bear-sprayed the drifter who defended himself against the attacker. And that the "victim" has allegedly used bear spray on other vagrants who were committing the egregious crime of sleeping on the sidewalk.

I'm sincerely curious. What's your plan for homeless people camping on your steps if LE won't remove them?

The trend of homeless people sleeping, living, eating, fornicating, and shitting on extensive stretches of public sidewalk (in front of someone's home/school/business) on the west coast is not something I want to encourage. Portland is relevant because AFAIK they started the trend with large homeless camps. San Diego has/had a public health problem with public sidewalks. When you have to sanitize sidewalks, that's a clue that there is a major problem.

In the past I helped a charity that would house people indefinitely. The house had rules: no drugs, get a job, curfew, etc. The point of the rules was that you couldn't disrupt others who were genuinely trying. Failure meant eviction. It sounds harsh, but society has always had rules ad failure to abide by the tribe's rules had significant consequences. It appears that that has been forgotten, but the "fly and be free" plan isn't working.

[mmc45414]

bear-spraying vigilante who preys on the unhoused.

"Unhoused" seems ironic, since these people used to be housed, in mental care facilities.

[whomever]

In the past I helped a charity that would house people indefinitely. The house had rules: no drugs, get a job, curfew, etc. The point of the rules was that you couldn't disrupt others who were genuinely trying. Failure meant eviction. It sounds harsh, but society has always had rules ad failure to abide by the tribe's rules had significant consequences. It appears that that has been forgotten, but the "fly and be free" plan isn't working.

This bears repeating.

We lived in Seattle for decades, and on the wrong side of the tracks at that. A long time ago - mid 90's - a church a couple hundred yards from our house decided to host a homeless camp for a couple of hundred people. The neighborhood was naturally concerned. The church held neighborhood meetings and assured us there would be no problems, and if there were problems they would shut it down. The campers apparently policed themselves - there wasn't any trouble at all. That lasted 3 or 4 years.

In the early 00's a different church did the same right across the street from my office - same rules, same result.

But sometime after that camping seemed to change into an entitlement. The rules seemed to change from 'cause problems and you have to move on' to 'anything goes'. Our friends in Seattle report appalling stories.

But IMHE, it doesn't have to be that way. Even homeless people seem to be able to control themselves when there is a downside to not behaving. It reminds me of the old story:

shoplifter to judge "you shouldn't put me in jail! I have kleptomania - it's a medical condition and I just can't control my compulsion to steal!"
judge: "so you would stolen the necklace even if a policeman was standing right by your elbow?"
shoplifter: "no, not with a policeman right there"
judge: "well then, it looks like you can control your urge after all"

[Tapatio]

@ mmc45414 the irony in my word choice was intentional.

[Totem Polar]

I'm sincerely curious. What's your plan for homeless people camping on your steps if LE won't remove them?

I need to be circumspect on an open forum, but: I have a friend—one of the nicest guys I know—who is dealing with this, due to having a business location a couple of blocks away from our trendy, au currant west coast-style tent town. He’s constantly having to chase away would-be burglars, and actual fornicators/users/shitters from his shop. As one might surmise, the only language that the burglar/fornicator/shooting up segment of the camp understands is threat of violence. I could provide a bit more detail, were this coterie, but it’s essentially open turf war.

This is the same trendy tent city that produced the serial garage burglar from my “the cops aren’t coming/private security only/oat milk latte interruptus” thread from some number of months ago that some of you might remember.

And, yeah, “unhoused” is the linguistic adaptation that we should all be using. Apropos, pertinent, and instructive if used with enough regularity.


(None of this precludes bear spray guy from being an asshole, mind; I’m certainly a believer in asshole-on-asshole violence, as a rule. Just pointing out that there’s enough to go around on all sides to make life more unpleasant for those of us still tethered to society/propriety who trend slightly less “asshole”…)

[Borderland]

"Unhoused" seems ironic, since these people used to be housed, in mental care facilities.

They use the term unsheltered around Seattle which doesn't sound right either. Most of them have tents under the freeway. They live like cave dwellers.

Mostly the reason that cities have large numbers of homeless is the social services that those cities and states provide. Weather has to be somewhat accommodating also. SF, PTL and SEA have large outreach programs to house people. SEA even tried to tax the large tech industry here to pay for the problem they created. Now they're trying to rezone and eminent domain to solve the problem. Eminent domain is the repurposing of private property regardless of the owners wishes.

Now back to the crowbar/bear spray showdown.

[Clusterfrack]

Unsheltered people experiencing houselessness? I prefer a more direct description: vagrants, addicts, hobos, and when encountered under bridges, trolls.

[cheby]

Unsheltered people experiencing houselessness? I prefer a more direct description: vagrants, addicts, hobos, and when encountered under bridges, trolls.

“Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.”

― George Orwell, 1984

[mmc45414]

Unsheltered people experiencing houselessness? I prefer a more direct description: vagrants, addicts, hobos, and when encountered under bridges, trolls.

Yeah, I think at the root of the problem are the people that perceive those in the tents to just be unfortunate, like it is all just luck, like You are lucky you do not live in a tent under a bridge, down by the river. I am more inclined to think it is because they are crazy fuck-ups that didn't set an alarm almost every day and didn't go to do shit they didn't wanna do almost every day for about the last fifty years, but maybe I was just lucky... :cool:

[Totem Polar]

Unsheltered people experiencing houselessness? I prefer a more direct description: vagrants, addicts, hobos, and when encountered under bridges, trolls.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/18/1822db698733d2a6b2544c13244c9f78c0445b885e18109b9c 24b63b52b46169.jpg


;) ;)

[Stephanie B]

I'm sincerely curious. What's your plan for homeless people camping on your steps if LE won't remove them?

Again, that's not the issue at hand. The issue is who did what to whom, first.

[JRB]

I can't help but imagine the difference in the news stories -and the discussion here- if the former fire commissioner dude was the one who got bear-sprayed by a homeless guy, and then fire commissioner dude chased the homeless dude down and beat his head in with a tire iron.

[TGS]

Again, that's not the issue at hand. The issue is who did what to whom, first.

In terms of legal framing of the incident, yes.

I think what Hambo is getting at is the overall trend in society, and the strain that places on people who are just trying to live without their personal well-being subjugated to the will and preference of vagrants.

In other words, it's a recipe for disaster, and lots of society can draw sympathy for the commissioner because they're sick and tired of dealing with it, too.

[AMC]

In terms of legal framing of the incident, yes.

I think what Hambo is getting at is the overall trend in society, and the strain that places on people who are just trying to live without their personal well-being subjugated to the will and preference of vagrants.

In other words, it's a recipe for disaster, and lots of society can draw sympathy for the commissioner because they're sick and tired of dealing with it, too.

Beat me to it. This exactly.

[AMC]

Having witnessed SF's descent into lawless zombie horror movie madness personally, there's more to this story than the simple narrative many have heard.

Things have gotten, um, complicated, in true San Francisco fashion. The victim refused to be interviewed by police, and didn't show up for a hearing against his attacker for a second time. As others have pointed out, victim is now being accused of being a bear-spraying vigilante who preys on the unhoused.

DA says they can't prosecute without a cooperating victim.

Say what you want about the news source I'm linking, they frequently have solid insights into the goings-on in America's Craziest City.

https://missionlocal.org/2023/04/don-carmignani-ex-fire-commissioner-attack-metal-rod-homeless-person-bear-spray-court/

The prefered terminology is "Worlds Biggest Outpatient Clinic". In the local LE vernacular.

[Clusterfrack]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/18/1822db698733d2a6b2544c13244c9f78c0445b885e18109b9c 24b63b52b46169.jpg


;) ;)

A bald eagle just flew by my office window and I wanted to yell Merica at it, then I realized it was a vulture, and that is the current Merica

[cheby]

A bald eagle just flew by my office window and I wanted to yell Merica at it, then I realized it was a vulture, and that is the current Merica

that was good. When you retire, you should try a career in poetry:)

[feudist]

A bald eagle just flew by my office window and I wanted to yell Merica at it, then I realized it was a vulture, and that is the current Merica

Isn't a bald eagle just a dandified vulture?

[GyroF-16]

I can't help but imagine the difference in the news stories -and the discussion here- if the former fire commissioner dude was the one who got bear-sprayed by a homeless guy, and then fire commissioner dude chased the homeless dude down and beat his head in with a tire iron.

I thought exactly the same thing. Shouldn’t all citizens be held to the same standard?

[camel]

I thought exactly the same thing. Shouldn’t all citizens be held to the same standard?

Not all citizens have the same standard.

[DDTSGM]

Not all citizens have the same standard.

To be sure.

But, if you point is that the Fire Chief should be held to a higher standard, when you get down to brass tacks, the legal standard for a fireman isn't equivalent to that of an LEO in the same situation.

[TAZ]

I am thinking that in the near future this type of event will play out a bit more often given that the Mensa squad in Oregon proposed to make camping on public property legal. Sidewalks are public property aren't they? I guess their solution to these poor misunderstood unhoused individual being harassed is to screw property owners.

[HCM]

Question if anybody knows. What’s the legality in normal instances of using bear spray on a person in place of pepper spray?

Bear spray is pepper spray.

The active ingredient in Oleoresin capsicum spray, commonly known as OC or pepper spray /bear spray is an oily resin derived from chili peppers.

Bear spray is usually marketed in larger containers, and sometimes has a slightly different concentration of oleo resin capsicum but legally there is no difference. Spraying people with OC spray is spraying people with OC spray. I’m. It doesn’t matter whether the label says OC spray, pepper spray, bear spray, etc..

[HCM]

To be sure.

But, if you point is that the Fire Chief should be held to a higher standard, when you get down to brass tacks, the legal standard for a fireman isn't equivalent to that of an LEO in the same situation.

I agree with you, use of force is not part of a Fireman’s professional purview.

However, we also need to be specific in our language.

The victim in this case was a fire commissioner. Fire commissioners are political appointees to the fire commission that provide civilian oversight of the fire department. They are not fireman, fire, chiefs, or any sort of first responder.

This particular individual is a businessman with background in both the tech industry and the cannabis industry who dabbles in politics. He’s known as “The Don of San Francisco” and is the biggest marijuana dispensary license holder in the city. Apparently has also had ties to CA Governor Gavin Newsome.

Apparently he was appointed to the fire commission back in 2013, and then resigned after four months as a fire commissioner when he was arrested on a domestic violence charge.

[Borderland]

Unsheltered people experiencing houselessness? I prefer a more direct description: vagrants, addicts, hobos, and when encountered under bridges, trolls.

Trolls, that's the work I was looking for. ;)

[Kanye Wyoming]

Bear spray is pepper spray.

The active ingredient in Oleoresin capsicum spray, commonly known as OC or pepper spray /bear spray is an oily resin derived from chili peppers.

Bear spray is usually marketed in larger containers, and sometimes has a slightly different concentration of oleo resin capsicum but legally there is no difference. Spraying people with OC spray is spraying people with OC spray. I’m. It doesn’t matter whether the label says OC spray, pepper spray, bear spray, etc..
Bear spray is assault spray. Nobody needs assault spray.

[Borderland]

Bear spray is assault spray. Nobody needs assault spray.

Especially those high capacity cans of high power assault spray.

[Tapatio]

The prefered terminology is "Worlds Biggest Outpatient Clinic". In the local LE vernacular.

+1. Thanks for setting the record straight.

[idahojess]

I thought exactly the same thing. Shouldn’t all citizens be held to the same standard?

Some citizen's standards are more equal than others.

[HCM]

Bear spray is assault spray. Nobody needs assault spray.


https://youtu.be/dTRKCXC0JFg

In San Francisco "Bear" has a different meaning....



bear

Urban Dictionary
https://www.urbandictionary.com › define › term=bear

A term used by gay men to describe a husky, large man with a lot of body hair. Ex. George's sexual tastes run toward bears..

[Hambo]

Again, that's not the issue at hand. The issue is who did what to whom, first.

To paraphrase TGS, in terms of framing a legal argument for/against one party or the other, yes. However, you brought up fire guy hosing homeless for the "crime of sleeping on the sidewalk," which I take to mean that you are sympathetic to the plight of homeless people. My question to you is simply what you would do if homeless squat on your property? What do you recommend when a kind word and cookies fail? Are you committed enough to let them shit on your porch indefinitely?

I'm not that committed. As I said, I helped a religious charity with my time, money, food, labor, and once with an eviction (so that the live-in volunteers weren't seen as the bad guy). What I found with volunteers is that most people wanted the warm fuzzy feeling without any of the hard stuff. It's easy to pay a light bill, but hard to tell someone that they're so deep in the hole that three charities combined couldn't get them squared up financially. So I did warm fuzzies and the hard things, but I am not committed enough to let someone move in my house on onto my property. That's my limit and I know it. You might be far more committed than I am. You might have ideas I have not have considered. You might be arguing just for the sake of argument. Which is it?

[Oldherkpilot]

Especially those high capacity cans of high power assault spray.

Probably had a fully-automatic pistol brace on it!

[RoyGBiv]

Probably had a fully-semi-automatic pistol brace on it!

FIFY :)

[jh9]

To paraphrase TGS, in terms of framing a legal argument for/against one party or the other, yes. However, you brought up fire guy hosing homeless for the "crime of sleeping on the sidewalk," which I take to mean that you are sympathetic to the plight of homeless people. My question to you is simply what you would do if homeless squat on your property? What do you recommend when a kind word and cookies fail? Are you committed enough to let them shit on your porch indefinitely?

I'm not that committed. As I said, I helped a religious charity with my time, money, food, labor, and once with an eviction (so that the live-in volunteers weren't seen as the bad guy). What I found with volunteers is that most people wanted the warm fuzzy feeling without any of the hard stuff. It's easy to pay a light bill, but hard to tell someone that they're so deep in the hole that three charities combined couldn't get them squared up financially. So I did warm fuzzies and the hard things, but I am not committed enough to let someone move in my house on onto my property. That's my limit and I know it. You might be far more committed than I am. You might have ideas I have not have considered. You might be arguing just for the sake of argument. Which is it?

Sure. What isn't clear: was this guy doing The Hard Stuff because it was the only option left or was this "homeless person #54880" to do the same thing and he initiated a confrontation just out of irritation?

I don't think the strictly legal aspect is something that should be dismissed out of hand. Even if you don't live in SF knowing how to navigate the world based on what will or will not earn you the title of "defendant" isn't academic. This guy lives somewhere interactions with Persons Experiencing Homelessness are treated as tribal markers. OCing the people in question, no matter how shitty their behavior, was taking a swing at a shibboleth of the dominant tribe.

MMQB: He didn't have a Plan B for what happened when the can of spicy air didn't get him the outcome he wanted, when the other guy is even a little bit committed to the fight and when everyone saw him violating local custom. You're gonna want a Plan B for all of those things.

[Stephanie B]

To paraphrase TGS, in terms of framing a legal argument for/against one party or the other, yes. However, you brought up fire guy hosing homeless for the "crime of sleeping on the sidewalk," which I take to mean that you are sympathetic to the plight of homeless people.

Bad assumption on your part. I brought up that allegation solely for a point of why the DA might not be charging the guy who tuned him up with a crowbar. If he was spraying homeless guys sleeping on the street (or if the defense can convince a jury of that), then the defense might be able to argue that the fire guy was the initial aggressor and what happened to him as a result falls under the Toyota Rule ("he asked for it, he got it"). My impression is that a lot of DAs tend to fall in love with is their won/lost percentage and one way to pump up that number is not to take cases to trial that are dodgy.

[MichaelD]

Utah Realtors Association hardest hit.No, those of us in Utah looking to upgrade from a townhouse to a standalone house hardest hit.

[HCM]

Meanwhile Oregon is doubling down on stupid with their proposed “Right to Rest” act.



https://www.foxnews.com/us/oregon-democrats-propose-right-rest-act-decriminalizing-public-camping-homeless-crisis-surges



Oregon Democrats propose 'Right to Rest Act' decriminalizing public camping as homeless crisis surges
Oregon's Right to Rest Act would allow homeless individuals to sue for $1K if they are 'harassed'





Oregon House Bill 3501, known as the Right to Rest Act, states that homeless individuals will have "a privacy interest and a reasonable expectation of privacy in any property belonging to the person, regardless of whether the property is located in a public space."

The bill also allows homeless individuals to sue for up to $1,000 if they are "harassed" or told to relocate.

The bill says that "persons experiencing homelessness" will "be permitted to use public spaces in the same manner as any other person without discrimination based on their housing status" and states that homeless individuals have a right to "move freely in public spaces without discrimination and time limitations that are based on housing status."

[JTQ]

Meanwhile Oregon is doubling down on stupid with their proposed “Right to Rest” act.

I saw that on the news the other day. I didn't fully understand the parameters, but it sounded like it would make it legal to camp in public spaces.

It got me to wondering if perhaps that would include, the State Capitol, City Hall, etc. Could you set up your tent outside the mayors office and if you get harassed you could sue the city for $1,000 each time you are harassed? You could use the rest rooms in City Hall, and enjoy the air condition/heated building. Lots of potential for "point makers".

[jh9]

I saw that on the news the other day. I didn't fully understand the parameters, but it sounded like it would make it legal to camp in public spaces.

It got me to wondering if perhaps that would include, the State Capitol, City Hall, etc. Could you set up your tent outside the mayors office

See also: Austin, TX under the camping ban (https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/homeless/austin-camping-ban-prop-b-homeless-housing-affordability/269-6ba7e3c2-e6de-4724-8839-72bed06b7105) repeal (2019) and reinstatement (2021). Tents encircling City Hall was a thing. Wild time to live downtown.

[AMC]

See also: Austin, TX under the camping ban (https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/homeless/austin-camping-ban-prop-b-homeless-housing-affordability/269-6ba7e3c2-e6de-4724-8839-72bed06b7105) repeal (2019) and reinstatement (2021). Tents encircling City Hall was a thing. Wild time to live downtown.

Early to mid 90s, San Fanciscos Civic Center Plaza across from City Hall became 'Camp Agnos', named for the previous mayor's indulgence of the practice of camping there. It became a literal tent city and open air drug market 24 hrs a day. Wasn't until Willy Brown came into office that the city decided it was maybe a bad idea. He may have been a corrupt SOB who gave us Kamala, but he did spruce the place up quite a bit.

[HeavyDuty]

The issue I see in this case is whether the attack was a proportional use of force compared to the alleged initial bear spraying. I would say no, and from what I was reading there was some premeditation on the part of the ‘bo.

[jh9]

Early to mid 90s,

See, this is what happens when you run off all the Bay Area Thrash Metal bands in exchange for tech companies.

[paherne]

Question if anybody knows. What’s the legality in normal instances of using bear spray on a person in place of pepper spray?

In CA, you might be able to charge Penal Code Section 244, assault with a caustic chemical, a felony, based on the bear spray not being intended for use on humans. It would take expert testimony to establish this and you would also need to establish intent. I am not a lawyer, but I would be comfortable going through voir dire to establish my expert credentials in a criminal case as I was a CA POST Chemical Agents Instructor. Going around the neighborhood and sprinkling the local feral humans for sport would be much more easy to obtain a conviction on this, I believe, as opposed to using bear spray that you carried for protection from bears in the wild as a necessity when suddenly assaulted. It depends on the formulation of the spray and its flammability/ingredients.

On many gun boards, I see folks presenting this as a good alternative for self defense, along with wasp spray, etc. I would strongly advise consulting a criminal defense attorney for advice before using something not intended for use on humans, on humans, especially since in CA there are a number of legal alternatives. Illegal alternatives, to include carrying a pistol registered to you without a permit which is only a misdemeanor for first conviction, might also get you less time in the slammer. *Remember, CA's gun control/dangerous weapons laws were written to keep the immigrant and non-white folks in line, while allowing Mr. Farnsley Whitworth III to carry a pistol in his coat pocket like all "good" gentlemen did and suffer few legal consequences.

244. Any person who willfully and maliciously places or throws, or causes to be placed or thrown, upon the person of another, any vitriol, corrosive acid, flammable substance, or caustic chemical of any nature, with the intent to injure the flesh or disfigure the body of that person, is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three or four years.

As used in this section, “flammable substance” means gasoline, petroleum products, or flammable liquids with a flashpoint of 150 degrees Fahrenheit or less.

[HCM]

In CA, you might be able to charge Penal Code Section 244, assault with a caustic chemical, a felony, based on the bear spray not being intended for use on humans. It would take expert testimony to establish this and you would also need to establish intent. I am not a lawyer, but I would be comfortable going through voir dire to establish my expert credentials in a criminal case as I was a CA POST Chemical Agents Instructor. Going around the neighborhood and sprinkling the local feral humans for sport would be much more easy to obtain a conviction on this, I believe, as opposed to using bear spray that you carried for protection from bears in the wild as a necessity when suddenly assaulted. It depends on the formulation of the spray and its flammability/ingredients.

On many gun boards, I see folks presenting this as a good alternative for self defense, along with wasp spray, etc. I would strongly advise consulting a criminal defense attorney for advice before using something not intended for use on humans, on humans, especially since in CA there are a number of legal alternatives. Illegal alternatives, to include carrying a pistol registered to you without a permit which is only a misdemeanor for first conviction, might also get you less time in the slammer. *Remember, CA's gun control/dangerous weapons laws were written to keep the immigrant and non-white folks in line, while allowing Mr. Farnsley Whitworth III to carry a pistol in his coat pocket like all "good" gentlemen did and suffer few legal consequences.

244. Any person who willfully and maliciously places or throws, or causes to be placed or thrown, upon the person of another, any vitriol, corrosive acid, flammable substance, or caustic chemical of any nature, with the intent to injure the flesh or disfigure the body of that person, is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three or four years.

As used in this section, “flammable substance” means gasoline, petroleum products, or flammable liquids with a flashpoint of 150 degrees Fahrenheit or less.

Bear spray is simply OC /pepper spray with a different label for marketing purposes. As such charging this for OC spray is not just a stretch but truly disingenuous.

OC does not cause physical damage / injury as required in the statute.

It would not take much of a defense attorney to destroy an over reach like this.

Not that I have much sympathy for either party in this matter. It seems to be a clear case of when assholes collide.

[paherne]

Bear spray is simply OC /pepper spray with a different label for marketing purposes. As such charging this for OC spray is not just a stretch but truly disingenuous.

OC does not cause physical damage / injury as required in the statute.

It would not take much of a defense attorney to destroy an over reach like this.

Not that I have much sympathy for either party in this matter. It seems to be a clear case of when assholes collide.

You might want to call the US Attorneys getting convictions for the Jan 6 rioters and let them know. I know that's Federal law and not really applicable to this case, "The bear spray McHugh used, the judge said, was 50% stronger than police pepper spray and hazardous to humans. McHugh temporarily blinded a police officer during the riot.

Read more at: https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article274384455.html#storylink=cpy"


Politics is everything in this case. I know people who are friends of the "victim" and he's a local native, went to a local Catholic HS a year behind me and is a fixture in the SF North Beach, Italian community. Angela Alioto is on twitter railing about this case. Because the guy is a family friend to the Aliotos and their political machine, which is in decline.

This is old SF natives versus new tech bros from NY and the east coast.

Recently, an SF jury found a Honduran fentanyl dealer not guilty of selling fentanyl to an undercover police officer a number of times because the defense attorney told them that the dealer was being forced to sell by the cartels to pay off his debt for being smuggled into the country. Never mind the $800 per day he was being paid to deal death to addicts... The jury felt sorry for him.

If the big, convicted domestic abuser, former Fire Commissioner was guilty of spraying the people with the most rights and least responsibilities in our enlightened San Francisco paradise, I can only imagine how a jury would view him.

If you don't think a DA could get a conviction on this dude with a San Francisco jury, dependent on testing the propellant, I've got a big red bridge to sell you.

[TGS]

You might want to call the US Attorneys getting convictions for the Jan 6 rioters and let them know. I know that's Federal law and not really applicable to this case, "The bear spray McHugh used, the judge said, was 50% stronger than police pepper spray and hazardous to humans. McHugh temporarily blinded a police officer during the riot

Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe McHugh was convicted of 18 USC 111, so I'm not sure what sort of point you're trying to make. The fact it was bear spray is not relevant to the statute beyond the fact it was something used to assault the officer; regular OC spray would've resulted in the same charge. It could've been bear spray, regular OC, spit, or he could've thrown a pez dispenser at his face. It's still assault.

The article homing in on the fact it was bear spray, and the judge pointing out the formulation he used is more powerful than regular OC, is just pointing out that he's an asshole and not material.

ETA for accuracy/specificity: the charges were for assault with a deadly/dangerous weapon, but the affidavit did not specify the charge was because it was bear spray; simply because it's chemical spray. I believe OC spray gets the same charge as bear spray because it's considered a dangerous weapon, is what I'm trying to point out.

[HCM]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe McHugh was convicted of 18 USC 111, so I'm not sure what sort of point you're trying to make. The fact it was bear spray is not relevant to the statute beyond the fact it was something used to assault the officer; regular OC spray would've resulted in the same charge. It could've been bear spray, regular OC, spit, or he could've thrown a pez dispenser at his face. It's still assault.

The article homing in on the fact it was bear spray, and the judge pointing out the formulation he used is more powerful than regular OC, is just pointing out that he's an asshole and not material.

ETA for accuracy/specificity: the charges were for assault with a deadly/dangerous weapon, but the affidavit did not specify the charge was because it was bear spray; simply because it's chemical spray. I believe OC spray gets the same charge as bear spray because it's considered a dangerous weapon, is what I'm trying to point out.

Correct - 18 USC 111 is a divisible statute, meaning it can be either a felony or a misdemeanor, depending on whether or not a weapon (any weapon) was used or the type of injury that results. There is also an enhanced penalty if a “deadly or dangerous” weapon is used or if the assault was committed in conjunction with another felony.

correct re: OC- for federal purposes OC spray would be a “dangerous” weapon regardless of the label / formulation / carrier.

And yes, IME attorneys, including judges, and prosecutors, often know very little about weapons, whether it’s firearms, OC spray, etc.

[camel]

To be sure.

But, if you point is that the Fire Chief should be held to a higher standard, when you get down to brass tacks, the legal standard for a fireman isn't equivalent to that of an LEO in the same situation.

No I didn’t say that to make a point about the fire commissioner. I made it as a point citizens in general have different standards.

[paherne]

Here is a local "alternative media" report on the events that provides more information:
https://www.marinatimes.com/they-all-knew

[AMC]

Here is a local "alternative media" report on the events that provides more information:
https://www.marinatimes.com/they-all-knew

Yeah. That about sums it all up. I only have a couple of family members, and a few old friends, still living in the city. I have told them repeatedly that they are now essentially without police protection. But they say they have nowhere else to go.

[Dog Guy]

Paherne, thanks for the link. It fleshes out a lot of the story. This was never a case of some guy wandering around OCing homeless people and a homeless dude defending himself.

[Borderland]

Sure. What isn't clear: was this guy doing The Hard Stuff because it was the only option left or was this "homeless person #54880" to do the same thing and he initiated a confrontation just out of irritation?

I don't think the strictly legal aspect is something that should be dismissed out of hand. Even if you don't live in SF knowing how to navigate the world based on what will or will not earn you the title of "defendant" isn't academic. This guy lives somewhere interactions with Persons Experiencing Homelessness are treated as tribal markers. OCing the people in question, no matter how shitty their behavior, was taking a swing at a shibboleth of the dominant tribe.

MMQB: He didn't have a Plan B for what happened when the can of spicy air didn't get him the outcome he wanted, when the other guy is even a little bit committed to the fight and when everyone saw him violating local custom. You're gonna want a Plan B for all of those things.

Plan B is run. That's what he did. He's still alive. He might not be so lucky next time.

Homeless evolution is evolving.

[Coyotesfan97]

I saw that on the news the other day. I didn't fully understand the parameters, but it sounded like it would make it legal to camp in public spaces.

It got me to wondering if perhaps that would include, the State Capitol, City Hall, etc. Could you set up your tent outside the mayors office and if you get harassed you could sue the city for $1,000 each time you are harassed? You could use the rest rooms in City Hall, and enjoy the air condition/heated building. Lots of potential for "point makers".

Damn my sons living in Portland. Looks like it’s time to visit and make some money. LOL

[Borderland]

It's legal in Seattle. This is recent.


https://youtu.be/XrwtleEnUBA

[AMC]

It's legal in Seattle. This is recent.


https://youtu.be/XrwtleEnUBA

It is 'legal' everywhere within the jurisdiction of the Federal 9th Circuit. Portlands legislation is about establishing 'privacy' rights in that regard that also allow the homeless to sue those who 'harass' (maybe read: report and complain about) them.

[idahojess]

It is 'legal' everywhere within the jurisdiction of the Federal 9th Circuit. Portlands legislation is about establishing 'privacy' rights in that regard that also allow the homeless to sue those who 'harass' (maybe read: report and complain about) them.

Yep. Martin v. City of Boise.

[camel]

Well this is a shit sandwich.

I’m mAking a joke on the 9th circuit’s decision. It’s no longer expansion for workers. As long as it’s responsible for some. What a shitty idea. The left coast can rake a look at their decision and voting power they have played. It does not equal and I’m an not a lawyer an absolute for shitty decision on a person. I get that some people are bound to shit. It’s how you make yourself from. That shit.

[Joe in PNG]

Well this is a shit sandwich.

With a generous helping of used syringes sprinkled on top.

[camel]

With a generous helping of used syringes sprinkled on top.

I edited my post.

[TGS]

I'm also of the opinion that DA Jenkins, while infinitely better than the Batman Villain she replaced, is not quite ready for prime time. Not necessarily in core competence, but in necessary experience. But I could be proven wrong. Chesa chased away a lot of good, experienced staff prosecutors as well.

Revisiting this post to point out how this impact cannot be understated. Today's news brought word that another prosecutor resigned from the violent felonies unit under DA Kim Gardner in St Louis. They're now down to 1 prosecutor to handle 500 pending violent felony investigations.

The damage done will last a decade +. Prosecuting crimes is not a transactional type job...you can't just plug'n'play new investigators and prosecutors and expect it to work well. It will take years to rebuild an effective team, and that only starts once you recognize there's a problem and try to reverse it.

LockedBreech vcdgrips

[LockedBreech]

Revisiting this post to point out how this impact cannot be understated. Today's news brought word that another prosecutor resigned from the violent felonies unit under DA Kim Gardner in St Louis. They're now down to 1 prosecutor to handle 500 pending violent felony investigations.

The damage done will last a decade +. Prosecuting crimes is not a transactional type job...you can't just plug'n'play new investigators and prosecutors and expect it to work well. It will take years to rebuild an effective team, and that only starts once you recognize there's a problem and try to reverse it.

@LockedBreech (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=10777) @vcdgrips (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=30)

I can't say much without doxing myself, though I think I've mentioned it on PF a few times vaguely. The reason I left my former prosecutor job was that the DA ran it into the ground. Fumbled things, was horrible to employees, law enforcement, and victims alike, and when I quit roughly 25 people quit in the year and a half after me (it was only a 30-35 person office).

It's impossible to understate the horrid impacts it had on our community. She became so understaffed, law enforcement and victims so disinclined to work with her, and cases so poorly managed that for 2-3 years anything below a violent felony you could basically get away with. Even now, 3+ years late, the DA's office is only now getting back to a reasonable staffing and assistant complement, after she left.

I completely agree that the damage done by a mismanaged prosecutor's office is exponentially greater than even the worst-run law enforcement agency. The inability to effectively and ethically prosecute cases and the lack of institutional knowledge, combined with the fact that hiring lawyers is never all that easy because we almost all have at least a few options means that the damage lingers in dozens of ways.

As a side note, about 1.5 years ago I was strongly encouraged to run for my old DA's position, which would have been about 2x the money I had ever made. I refused emphatically. She had so eviscerated the office that I predict it'll be 2025-2030 before it's fully operational again.

[vcdgrips]

Ramble follows. I have never served as a State Court Prosecutor. I have worked as a federal prosecutor in a metropolitan area than spans at least 5 counties in two states and have some thoughts on the matter after 25+ years.

LB is spot on re how important it is to have enough attys with a variety of experiences staffing a given office.

You need a some older 15+ year sage/wisdom keepers/career prosecutors/ who have tried multiple cases in every division in front of every judge so the office has the institutional knowledge re effective advocacy.

You need several 3-15 years folks who have made the year by year decision to stay on as they do the lions share of the work.

You need a fair number of 0-5 year folks who have tried enough cases to reach what I call trial nirvana - in broad strokes the atty does not care whether it is trial, a deal or an appeal, they just want to know the arc of the case sooner v later because they are busy and want to be able to allocate their personal /professional time/talent/treasure accordingly.

When you get a run on talent who can actually do they work, it starts a cycle that is very hard to reset.

a. folks do not have enough experience/resources/mentorship so they pled things out too low.
b. the defense bar smells blood in the water and exploits the weaknesses be it lack trial talent/workload or some combination thereof.
c. the court starts pushing back by refusing to accept certain pleas or sentencing at the high end of charges pled and accepted.
d. Local law enforcement partners then are often reluctant to present any but the best of cases despite the fact that it is the tough ones on the margins that should most often be tried.
e. Throw in a couple of high profile cases and what little capacity the office had is now fully committed and the bread and butter cases suffer.

In STL City- it seems like the elected (Gardner) got to the edge of her lane on her best day. Hired folks who affirmatively had no prosecutor experience and/or interest. That created an environment where quality folks went elsewhere with a quickness. Given the relative unique "county" divisions and "city" divisions i.e. St Louis County (immediately surrounding suburbs of STL proper v St Louis City ( STL proper) and surrounding multiple municipalities, prosecutorial job hopping was already a thing and it just got exponentially worse.

Moreover, high volume state felony prosecution is not easy on its best day. The job can be very taxing. Contrary to popular belief, many public defenders are quite talented in the court room. The job of the prosecution has also gotten harder because of the public's lack of trust of GOVT/LEOs/JUDGES/Evolving attitudes toward certain crimes etc.

Reasonable minds can differ on the WHY, I am speaking to the nuts and bolts of the WHAT.

[Joe in PNG]

Reading the last few comments, and one does see the plausibility of the theory that George Soros is deliberately working to undermine the justice system by promoting bad District Attorneys.

[Totem Polar]

Reading the last few comments, and one does see the plausibility of the theory that George Soros is deliberately working to undermine the justice system by promoting bad District Attorneys.

It’s not a conspiracy theory if it’s no longer just a theory. We can add in Portland area DA Mike Schmidt, who took a fat chunk of funding from Soros. I’ve heard *directly* from late career cops involved in training every LEO in the region that he’s fucked the whole gig up for everyone—cops, citizens; everyone gets in on the grief.

[cheby]

It’s not a conspiracy theory if it’s no longer just a theory. We can add in Portland area DA Mike Schmidt, who took a fat chunk of funding from Soros. I’ve heard *directly* from late career cops involved in training every LEO in the region that he’s fucked the whole gig up for everyone—cops, citizens; everyone gets in on the grief.


https://www.koin.com/news/civic-affairs/woke-agenda-ppb-staff-comments-on-lgbtq-training-video/?ipid=promo-link-block1&utm_source=t.co&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral

[Totem Polar]

https://www.koin.com/news/civic-affairs/woke-agenda-ppb-staff-comments-on-lgbtq-training-video/?ipid=promo-link-block1&utm_source=t.co&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral

There’s some grist for the mill in there, and undoubtably a lot left out. I’ll just say that I’m an ally of anyone wanting to be left alone, regardless of identity, and an enemy to those that refuse to leave people alone, again, regardless of identity.

[0ddl0t]

Update: Back in April charges were suspended, not dropped, after the "victim" failed to show up to a preliminary hearing because he did not want to incriminate himself (he was captured on video pepper spraying sleeping homeless people 8 times in the past few years).

The case still eventually went to trial, but today jurors acquitted the homeless man, Garret Doty. Don Carmignani, the "victim," did not take the stand and prosecutors were forced to concede he may have acted aggressively towards other homeless people in the past. A defense witness also testified that Carmignani threatened to kill Doty, the homeless man, with a knife if he did not leave the block.

10 jurors voted for acquittal as deliberations began and the other 2 joined the majority in short order.

[FNFAN]

If you're wondering how far things have deteriorated in San Francisco...
You'll especially love the next to last sentence in the story.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-drops-case-against-145629569.html

"Brittany Bernstein
Wed, April 26, 2023 at 7:56 AM PDT·2 min read

The San Francisco district attorney’s office on Tuesday dropped the charges against a homeless man who allegedly attacked former San Francisco fire commissioner Don Carmignani earlier this month with a crowbar, sending him to the hospital for emergency surgery to treat a hole in the back of his skull.

The case was dropped after prosecutors concluded the attacker, Garrett Doty, was acting in self-defense when he beat Carmignani so badly that he broke the former fire commissioner’s jaw and left him in need of 50 stitches, the New York Post reported.

The incident began when Carmignani confronted Doty and two other vagrants who were allegedly blocking Carmignani’s mother’s driveway in the city’s Marina District while consuming drugs and harassing neighbors. His mother’s calls to 911 had gone unanswered.

During the confrontation, the trio refused to leave and Doty allegedly became aggressive. Carmignani then deployed pepper spray on Doty.

Because Carmignani sprayed Doty, the district attorney’s office has concluded the homeless man was acting in self-defense when he viciously attacked Carmignani, despite prosecutors having obtained video of the attacker taking the crowbar out of a garbage can and taking practice swings before the attack.

Video appears to show Doty cornering Carmignani, who was heavily bleeding, against the wall of a gas station store while brandishing a crowbar. Carmignani tried to fight back, but Doty struck him in the head with the crowbar when Carmignani went to wipe blood from his eyes.

Carmignani attempted to escape toward the road but Doty hit him in the head again and then chased him down the sidewalk, according to the report.

The attack left Carmignani in the ICU for several days.

While Doty was initially charged with assault with a deadly weapon, aggravated battery with serious bodily injury, and assault with force likely to produce great bodily injury, it may be Carmignani who now faces charges for spraying the pepper spray, according to the report.

Police and the district attorney’s office did not interview Carmignani about the incident before dropping the case, a source close to the victim told the paper.

The ultraLeft will only abandon their stance on non-prosecution when a few folks are found swinging from light poles.

[paherne]

CA is an old west state and has very strong self-defense laws. The victim's refusal to testify and both subjects' lack of jury appeal/sympathy probably had a lot to do with the jury's verdict.