Harsh Realizations....

[BaiHu]

I shoot a P30 and P30 L. When I use a holster, I feel safe and confident with the DA/Decocker setup of the P30 series. I have two AIWB holsters and I am very comfortable with this setup.

However, a friend of mine has a PPQ and my accuracy with the PPQ is no different than when I shoot my P30, but even with the stock sights, I can follow up shots better with the PPQ given it's 'glock-style' trigger. Where I really noticed it was on 25 yd 5" plates. I can usually hit 5 of 5 hanging 5" plates with my P30 consistently, but it may take around 3 seconds a shot. The first time I used his PPQ, I could reacquire and reset the trigger so fast, that it was noticeably faster. Although I didn't time it, I know I completed the task closer to a 10 second mark versus a 15 second mark. FYI, my cleanest FAST is 6.39 and my average is about 7.5, so I'm thinking I could shave .5 on my average just seeing what I'm capable of pulling off at 25 yds with the PPQ.

If I shoot the PPQ better, I should move to it, right....but.....

If it wasn't for the lack of some type of safety or a gadget on the PPQ (will the gadget work on a PPQ?), I'd sell all of my P30 accessories, mags and both guns and buy 2 PPQs tomorrow (or as fast as I can get a purchase permit in NJ).

My concerns:

1) I don't feel comfortable putting a striker fired pistol in an AIWB holster w/o a gadget.
2) Although I can't carry in NJ, I'd like to get my UT and/or FL permits.
3) I'm not sure if I even feel comfortable putting it in an OWB strong side holster. I understand this is a bit on the ridiculous side. Add to this fact that I'm a skinny mofo, so OWB will never work for me when I get my CCW permits.
4) Knowing the 3 above, I'd rather continue to improve my abilities with the P30 until the PPQ has a gadget before I consider switching.

Final dilemma: If I 'tweak' my P30 triggers so the pull weight and distance is reduced, it would cost me almost as much as 1.5 PPQs.

Please keep the suggestions to the P30 and PPQ. I've shot glocks, sigs, etc and these two makers fit my hands the best and I can reach all controls with minimal grip movement.

Thanks!

[ToddG]

There's absolutely no way that trigger reset has an effect on your speed on such a low% target (5" at 25yd) unless you're manipulating the trigger wrong. P30 or PPQ, the trigger should reset in recoil and be prepped for the next shot by the time you've got your sights aligned.

[BaiHu]

Glad you chimed in this way, b/c I know something is happening for me on the PPQ that is not happening for me on the P30, which means you're probably right. My guess is I'm getting better feedback on the PPQ for a clearer reset, whereas the P30 reset is less distinct for me. From memory, it seems like the P30 reset is longer, so I might be having trouble resetting fast enough in fear of letting my finger out too far and then having to reel in that slack. Conversely, I may be releasing too far forward in order to make sure I don't get trigger freeze.

Obviously this is a trigger manipulation issue, but if the trigger of the PPQ speeds my splits having only used it for 50 rounds, then....how much more time/money do I spend in trying to get my P30 skills up to PPQ. I'm not settled on an answer here, I'm just trying to devil's advocate my own argument with all of your eyes/experience aiding me and knocking down b.s. arguments.

[ToddG]

(1) You might simply shoot the PPQ better. If so, you need to decide whether it's enough better to counter all the perceived benefits you see in the P30.

(2) You're still talking about reset. In, out, back, whatever. You're talking about firing a shot every 2-3 seconds. Reset has nothing to do with shooting at that speed. If I had to guess, I'd say you're slowing everything down artificially instead of getting the gun back into ready condition as quickly as possible (and then aiming slowly, breaking the shot slowly).

(3) You've got an established technique, and thus an established pace, with the P30. It might simply take some mental effort to break through that plateau and then you'd see little or no difference.

[BaiHu]

(1) You might simply shoot the PPQ better. If so, you need to decide whether it's enough better to counter all the perceived benefits you see in the P30.

(2) You're still talking about reset. In, out, back, whatever. You're talking about firing a shot every 2-3 seconds. Reset has nothing to do with shooting at that speed. If I had to guess, I'd say you're slowing everything down artificially instead of getting the gun back into ready condition as quickly as possible (and then aiming slowly, breaking the shot slowly).

(3) You've got an established technique, and thus an established pace, with the P30. It might simply take some mental effort to break through that plateau and then you'd see little or no difference.

Todd,

Thanks for hashing this out with me.

Regarding (1) I was surprised at how easily I shot the PPQ as well if not better than my P30 in those 50 rounds. Of course that depressed me slightly given all the effort I've put into the P30 over the last 2+ years.

Regarding (2), you're onto something, but there's a memory/feeling that I was able to get on the sights faster on the PPQ and I can't tell if that was an ability to reset faster and therefore I 'felt' I had more time to concentrate on the sights for a follow up shot or there is a mechanical difference in my grip on the PPQ that made it seem that the front sight just wasn't moving as much as my P30, or that the PPQ sights (as horribly as some people feel they are) are still better than the Meps I have on my P30.

Regarding (3), this is the main point, and perhaps the PPQ has enabled me 'to see' that I have hit a physical plateau with the P30 and I need to make a mental shift in order to push to new heights. As you saw me in AFHF in August, their are times that I'm reluctant to do something wrong by pushing 'too hard/fast'.

Lastly, you've told me to try a new set of sights and if I can't make a change over the next 6 months of training, maybe that should be my next hardware move.

Thanks!

[ToddG]

If it's an issue of how fast you're getting a sight picture, that probably isn't related to trigger manipulation (unless you're roughing up the gun while moving your trigger finger).

The Mep sights for the P30 suck. They're not just average, they're horrible. You're getting so little visual information through the narrow rear notch (with the wide front post in the middle) that hitting something small at distance is going to be tougher. That's especially true if you're using the dot rather than the top edge of the front sight as your aiming point. I'd tell you to run out and get Heinies, but if the rumors are true Trijicon will have HD sights for the P30/HK45 Soon™ and that would be the way to go IMHO.

Finally, if you look around here you'll find plenty of discussions about honeymoon periods with new guns. You've got no habits with a PPQ and you're probably putting a lot more concentration into doing everything right because the trigger & sights are both unfamiliar. Then when you pick up your P30, you do a lot more on autopilot and that might not be a good thing for you on a 5" at 25yd.

[BaiHu]

If it's an issue of how fast you're getting a sight picture, that probably isn't related to trigger manipulation (unless you're roughing up the gun while moving your trigger finger).

The Mep sights for the P30 suck. They're not just average, they're horrible. You're getting so little visual information through the narrow rear notch (with the wide front post in the middle) that hitting something small at distance is going to be tougher. That's especially true if you're using the dot rather than the top edge of the front sight as your aiming point. I'd tell you to run out and get Heinies, but if the rumors are true Trijicon will have HD sights for the P30/HK45 Soon™ and that would be the way to go IMHO.

Finally, if you look around here you'll find plenty of discussions about honeymoon periods with new guns. You've got no habits with a PPQ and you're probably putting a lot more concentration into doing everything right because the trigger & sights are both unfamiliar. Then when you pick up your P30, you do a lot more on autopilot and that might not be a good thing for you on a 5" at 25yd.

Awesome, I have heard that Trijicon was working on these through the forum and that's what I'm holding out for. As for the honeymoon period, I agree with you as well and have read that too, but having always been partial to the DA/SA of the P30 and not fond of the Glock, I was surprised at how much I like the angle, grip and trigger response on the PPQ and then capitalizing on that was eye-opening. C'est la vie. Back to work this weekend ;)

[Alaskapopo]

There's absolutely no way that trigger reset has an effect on your speed on such a low% target (5" at 25yd) unless you're manipulating the trigger wrong. P30 or PPQ, the trigger should reset in recoil and be prepped for the next shot by the time you've got your sights aligned.

Nevermind did not read the op's post fully.
Pat

[ToddG]

That would come as a surprise to many PPC and Bianchi shooters...

[Dagga Boy]

Sometimes, it may actually be okay to have something that "feels and runs" better for you, than what "shoots" better for you. Of the thousands of times I have deployed a pistol against human adversaries, of the thousands of draws, of the thousands of searches, and the every waking minute of carrying a pistol since I was 21 years old, I have only had to actually made a loud noise against a human adversary with a pistol once. That only required a single press on the trigger and it was over in the blink of an eye. So "what" was the most important aspects of my chosen gear over the last 25 plus years? The reality is it wasn't what gun I shoot best with. If that was it, one of my competition guns or my USP .45 Expert (fun daily carry and easy to conceal:rolleyes:) would be all I needed. Instead, the guns that have best suited the entire process and mission have been best.

I am running P30's right now because they "fit my life", not because they are what I shoot the best. Each small change has been something to work through. Heavy LEM to TLG, Stock sights to a 10-8 rear, stock front to my new Dawson front tritium. Every step has been an improvement. I am still not shooting as good as with a Glock or custom 1911, BUT I handle the gun better. Now the work to get shooting better continues. I just picked up a solid revolver to help the process on my trigger finger. It is a process that I am good investing in. Because I teach multiple systems I have to stay current on lots of guns, but I am pretty dedicated to the HK LEM guns right now for my personal daily carry guns.

[98z28]

If it's an issue of how fast you're getting a sight picture, that probably isn't related to trigger manipulation (unless you're roughing up the gun while moving your trigger finger).

The Mep sights for the P30 suck. They're not just average, they're horrible. You're getting so little visual information through the narrow rear notch (with the wide front post in the middle) that hitting something small at distance is going to be tougher. That's especially true if you're using the dot rather than the top edge of the front sight as your aiming point. I'd tell you to run out and get Heinies, but if the rumors are true Trijicon will have HD sights for the P30/HK45 Soon™ and that would be the way to go IMHO.

Finally, if you look around here you'll find plenty of discussions about honeymoon periods with new guns. You've got no habits with a PPQ and you're probably putting a lot more concentration into doing everything right because the trigger & sights are both unfamiliar. Then when you pick up your P30, you do a lot more on autopilot and that might not be a good thing for you on a 5" at 25yd.

Absolutely this.

I've spent a fair amount of time with both a P30L (LEM) and a PPQ, both with stock sights. The Meps on the P30 have a fat front sight with very little light around it due to the narrow rear notch. It is very difficult to get good information from those sights on low probability targets. Despite how bad some say the stock sights are on the PPQ, I would argue they are some of the best stock sights out there. They are plastic and need to be replaced, but the sight picture is great. There is plenty of light around the front blade without having too much. They give great visual information, especially on low probably targets.

RE: The honeymoon phase.

It's a completely different trigger system than you are used to. Two seemingly great things often happen when you try a new system (assuming it is a usable trigger). First, you pay more attention to what you are doing with the unfamiliar gun, which results in a cleaner trigger press, a more consistent grip, and more consistent sight alignment. Second, the unfamiliar trigger is harder to anticipate, so if you have any trigger-jerking issues, they suddenly disappear. Have no fear. After a handful of range sessions, all ingrained bad habits will be right back with you.

I will say though that much like a 1911, the PPQ trigger will let you get away with a lot more slop than the LEM.

I also have to agree with you, BaiHu, on your safety concern with the trigger on the PPQ. I have a Raven holster for it, and it requires more force to lock the gun in the holster than it would take to pull the trigger and release the sear. If something got into the trigger guard while holstering and I didn't see it, there is no way I would feel it until the gun fired.

[YVK]

Just out of curiosity, what are the respective trigger weights on those two pistols?

[GJM]

I am still in the improving/learning stage with the P30 LEM, but I think the trigger is arguably one of the most capable triggers, but is substantially harder to shoot well. Almost two years ago, I gave up shooting it, and immediately did better with an M&P and Glock.

I am shooting the LEM again, and focusing on shooting it as a different and unique trigger. Already, I can see its potential to shoot better than the Glock or M&P, especially on low probability shots. Spilits and reloads are improving, but both are requiring more effort. Where support hand was my Achilles heal with the LEM, now I shoot it better support hand than anything else.

In addition I don't think their is a production pistol more accurate, more reliable, with higher build quality, and every time I put the pistol into an appendix holster, with my thumb on the hammer, I am reminded why it is the best appendix pistol made.

[98z28]

Just out of curiosity, what are the respective trigger weights on those two pistols?

I do not have a gauge, so take this for what it is worth.

The P30L had the light LEM, which HK lists at 4.5lbs. Walther says the PPQ is 5.5lbs, but there is no way my sample is over five pounds. It feels very similar to a gen3 Glock with a "-" connector, but with more of a glass rod break.

[YVK]

The P30L had the light LEM, which HK lists at 4.5lbs. Walther says the PPQ is 5.5lbs, but there is no way my sample is over five pounds. It feels very similar to a gen3 Glock with a "-" connector, but with more of a glass rod break.

I am confused now because I think he said this


I shoot a P30 and P30 L. When I use a holster, I feel safe and confident with the DA/Decocker setup of the P30 series. I have two AIWB holsters and I am very comfortable with this setup.

[BaiHu]

I am confused now because I think he said this

You are correct to be confused. The V3 is about 11.5 lbs in DA and around 7.3 lbs SA IIRC. I believe that means the LEM stock is about 7.3 lbs as well. Todd will know.

[GJM]

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/164188-lb-pull-lems.html

Here are the weights and springs.

In my comments, I was thinking LEM, and don't have enough experience with DA/SA P30's to know.

[98z28]

Sorry for the confusion YVK. I thought you were asking about my P30 and PPQ since the question followed my post.

[YVK]

You are correct to be confused. The V3 is about 11.5 lbs in DA and around 7.3 lbs SA IIRC. I believe that means the LEM stock is about 7.3 lbs as well. Todd will know.

So, you were shooting a gun with SA pull about 2.5-3 lbs heavier than PPQ's (although I thought SA with P30 was lighter), and DA pull about 7 lbs heavier, if my confusion has been appropriately dissipated. The test was slow fire, small target, long distance. Why is the result surprising then? I saw a difference in similar tests when I switched regular connector to negative one on my G19, just one pound of trigger weight change.
The way I see it, you selected a test that favored PPQ by design. You could select a test that would favor P30.

[BaiHu]

So, you were shooting a gun with SA pull about 2.5-3 lbs heavier than PPQ's (although I thought SA with P30 was lighter), and DA pull about 7 lbs heavier, if my confusion has been appropriately dissipated. The test was slow fire, small target, long distance. Why is the result surprising then? I saw a difference in similar tests when I switched regular connector to negative one on my G19, just one pound of trigger weight change.
The way I see it, you selected a test that favored PPQ by design. You could select a test that would favor P30.

I never said this experience wasn't biased ;) I just said that this was a harsh realization that I was able to pick up a gun that was otherwise foreign to me and out shoot my P30. I could shoot quick and accurate at a change up drill with it too, but what Todd said was more of the eye opener for me-I've just gotten mentally lazy with my P30 and I need to kick my training up a notch. It'll be good.