The grip -- Grauffel

[GJM]

https://youtu.be/_5jixIPMT6s

[pangloss]

That's very interesting. Recently I watched one of the TPC/Tactical Hyve videos on grip which really emphasized the C-clamp with your dominant hand. I have trouble executing that grip without screwing up my trigger pull. 2:45 - 3:30 of the above video was very helpful and seems to articulate what I've been fumbling toward. Time to examine my support hand grip angle...

[JHC]

Very interesting discussion. I've long cammed my support hand/wrist forward for leverage I believe, and to Eric G's comments at 7:30 - my left wrist gets some shooting pain occaissionally once I get deep into a range session. Dominant, never.


ETA - my freestyle revolver grip is very different, support hand wrist is straight and I've never got that pain from similar volumes of reps. Never occurred to me before. Huh.

[JHC]

https://youtu.be/_5jixIPMT6s

Does Eric G shoot an all steel heavy pistol generally?

[GJM]

Does Eric G shoot an all steel heavy pistol generally?

He is sponsored by CZ, so I would say yes.

[JHC]

He is sponsored by CZ, so I would say yes.

Do you think his light tough with the dominant hand would apply equally to a much lighter polymer framed pistol?

[GJM]

Do you think his light tough with the dominant hand would apply equally to a much lighter polymer framed pistol?

Yes. We are balancing recoil control with trigger control, and less strong hand grip force allows you to move the trigger faster and more accurately. His push pull and energizing stronger shoulder/upper back muscles causes the gun to return predictably as opposed to keeping the muzzle from rising by squeezing maximally with both hands. I sure liked it shooting a G26 yesterday.

[JHC]

Yes. We are balancing recoil control with trigger control, and less strong hand grip force allows you to move the trigger faster and more accurately. His push pull and energizing stronger shoulder/upper back muscles causes the gun to return predictably as opposed to keeping the muzzle from rising by squeezing maximally with both hands. I sure liked it shooting a G26 yesterday.

I'm going to take a shot at this. Great thread!

[CCT125US]

apply equally


Yes

Just to clarify, a light weight gun is just as easy to shoot as a heavy gun?

[GJM]

Just to clarify, a light weight gun is just as easy to shoot as a heavy gun?

To clarify, I was saying that I believe this technique applies to heavy steel and lighter weight polymer pistols equally. I wasn't saying anything about whether heavy or lighter guns are easier to shoot. If you are asking, I generally find lighter polymer guns easier to draw and transition, and steel guns easier to split and shoot low probability shots with. Depending upon the course of fire, that might favor heavy, light or balance out.

Once I finished shooting my Open gun today, I filmed a run on an array with an OEM barrel 19 followed by a few runs with a 26 with a Mayhem barrel and comp. The 26 felt really good using this method.


https://youtu.be/4087Hc7XBWI

[JHC]

GJM
Does the support hand finger hooking the trigger guard help straighten the support hand risk? That seems to be what I see. I listened a few times and they didn't seem to call that out specifically.

[LukeNCMX]

Interesting video. I wonder how Grauffel manages upper body tension with regard to target transitions. My current stage in The Journey is spending a lot of focus on miminizing upper body/shoulder tension.

Concerning support hand wrist camming: I moved away from a Volgel style cammed wrist to an Enos/Stoeger style neutral wrist angle years ago. Based on my experience I gain nothing from camming the wrist yet with a neutral wrist I can crush harder with my support hand with less effort. I also feel like a neutral wrist angle works better across various platforms where the cammed angle is narrowly suited to plastic guns especially Glocks. I see most normal people (not Vogel and the small group of built like him) drawn to a cammed wrist have not found the benefit of driving the meat at the base of the support hand thumb into and slightly behind the back edge of the frame.

[GJM]

Yes, the index finger goes naturally on the trigger guard for me with the wrist straight. Interestingly, what started me experimenting with the finger on the trigger guard was pain from an injury to my support hand wrist. Two additional things I got out of the Grauffel video are extending the strong arm as part of the "push" part and the way he grips straight back with his support hand to "pull" in opposition to the push.

Hwansik Kim has discussed a natural, as opposed to a cam'd wrist for a while, both to avoid injury and to apply more support hand grip strength.

[JHC]

Yes, the index finger goes naturally on the trigger guard for me with the wrist straight. Interestingly, what started me experimenting with the finger on the trigger guard was pain from an injury to my support hand wrist. Two additional things I got out of the Grauffel video are extending the strong arm as part of the "push" part and the way he grips straight back with his support hand to "pull" in opposition to the push.

Hwansik Kim has discussed a natural, as opposed to a cam'd wrist for a while, both to avoid injury and to apply more support hand grip strength.

I recall that. I didn’t put much stock in it at the time. Lol

[GJM]

Interesting video. I wonder how Grauffel manages upper body tension with regard to target transitions. My current stage in The Journey is spending a lot of focus on miminizing upper body/shoulder tension.

Concerning support hand wrist camming: I moved away from a Volgel style cammed wrist to an Enos/Stoeger style neutral wrist angle years ago. Based on my experience I gain nothing from camming the wrist yet with a neutral wrist I can crush harder with my support hand with less effort. I also feel like a neutral wrist angle works better across various platforms where the cammed angle is narrowly suited to plastic guns especially Glocks. I see most normal people (not Vogel and the small group of built like him) drawn to a cammed wrist have not found the benefit of driving the meat at the base of the support hand thumb into and slightly behind the back edge of the frame.

I feel like the finger on the trigger guard helps my transitions, especially with a heavy gun. The high finger gives me more leverage to move the gun laterally.

[JCS]

JCN turned me on to a neutral style grip similar to Grauffel awhile back and it’s helped both with dot tracking consistency and reduced injuries.

When I was doing crush grip I was getting tendon and ligament issues in my hands, forearms and elbows. The neutral grip with only front and back pressure is less taxing and I can dry practice for 45 mins now with no pain.

Also the dot tracks more up and down than it ever has.

[CalAlumnus]

Here’s a good consolidation of interviews and videos on this approach to the grip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEBd3ColVJ0

[JHC]

GJM

Regarding this Eric G approach, with the position the dominant hand/arm take, any observations about how that impact acquiring the dot at index? It sort of strikes me as it might be a more repeatable index or more resilient index for hitting that dot vs modern ISO.

???

[GJM]

GJM

Regarding this Eric G approach, with the position the dominant hand/arm take, any observations about how that impact acquiring the dot at index? It sort of strikes me as it might be a more repeatable index or more resilient index for hitting that dot vs modern ISO.

???

I am not sure there is any magic to a particular approach in finding the dot, assuming you have put in the reps. In theory, if you find your dot primarily with vision, the drop it in from above method may get you sight of the dot sooner. If you acquire the dot through index, the straight dominant arm should help you point at your target easier.

[JHC]

I am not sure there is any magic to a particular approach in finding the dot, assuming you have put in the reps. In theory, if you find your dot primarily with vision, the drop it in from above method may get you sight of the dot sooner. If you acquire the dot through index, the straight dominant arm should help you point at your target easier.

I'm not sure how E.G. correct I'm experimenting but the dominant arm seems to behave a little more like your recommended SHO straight arm which seems to snap the dot into view.

[CraigS]

Wife and I were practicing last week and I remembered to explain to her this Grauffel grip as best I could remember. She tried it just assuming a standard arms out position and thought maybe she liked it. I suggested hold it for 15-20 seconds and see if you feel it in your shoulder muscles. Yes, she did. I pointed out that seemed to me to be a major advantage swapping larger, stronger shoulder for smaller weaker hand, wrist muscles. We were near the end of our session so she only shot maybe 30-40 rounds but she likes it. I thought her next comment may be useful for others. She says you know I have weak hand muscles. I think this can really help me. I said remember I mentioned the other week, the finger on front of the trigger guard, for same reason of overall weakness (Lena Micilek SP?). She didn't especially like the trigger finger position but I think she will work on the Grauffel push pull thing.

[Bubba Dremel Customs]

I'm interested in this topic but this video on Grauffel's grip was removed from Youtube. Is there anywhere else that this video can be watched?

Or if not, would anyone be able to explain the important points of his grip technique? Thanks

[luckyman]

I'm interested in this topic but this video on Grauffel's grip was removed from Youtube. Is there anywhere else that this video can be watched?

Or if not, would anyone be able to explain the important points of his grip technique? Thanks

Darn it, I had saved that link to study in detail but had not yet gotten around to it.

[CraigS]

My wife has been using the Grauffel grip for a month now. She feels like it has really helped her. No data to prove that but I think a simple boost in confidence is worth while.

[Bubba Dremel Customs]

My wife has been using the Grauffel grip for a month now. She feels like it has really helped her. No data to prove that but I think a simple boost in confidence is worth while.

CraigS could you please explain the Grauffel grip the way you understand it? Would be much appreciated

[Bubba Dremel Customs]

My wife has been using the Grauffel grip for a month now. She feels like it has really helped her. No data to prove that but I think a simple boost in confidence is worth while.

CraigS, would you be able to explain the Grauffel grip the way you understand it? Would be much appreciated

[CraigS]

From what I can get the main thing is that the support hand fingers are shaped into a hook. That shape isn't much different than a standard grip but, in a standard grip you then squeaze/crush. For me a standard grip gives me a fore/aft crush w/ my strong hand and a left/right crush w/ my weak hand. In the Grauffel, the strong hand arm is pushed out and locked. The weak hand hooked fingers are used to pull back against the strong arm/hand. Obviously there is some amount of finger strength used but the majority of the grip strength is done by the shoulder muscles. The first time my wife was trying it, no firing, just holding the gun out lined up w/ the target, I suggested hold the grip for 20 seconds. When she relaxed I asked if she felt any muscle soreness. Yeah, in my shoulders. My understanding is that even someone built like JJ Recaza, used to wear out his hand/finger muscles since he shoots so much. Shoulders are stronger, fingers get a break, and his shooting got better. Over the last year we have realized that her hand strength isn't much. To the point that she now hits the mag release w/ her weak hand thumb because she is 100% that way vs maybe 75% w/ her strong hand thumb. She had tried the weak hand index finger on front of the trigger guard like Lena Micilek uses to control recoil. Felt very awkward to her so after maybe 30rnds she quit that. She likes the Grauffel.

[Bubba Dremel Customs]

Thank you very much Craig.

[Bubba Dremel Customs]

To add to this discussion, I don't know if Hwansik Kim is using exactly the same grip technique that Eric Grauffel is but Hwansik said in an interview some years back that he doesn't apply any side-to-side force to the grip (12:55 to 14:30 in the video below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEBd3ColVJ0

[Cool Breeze]

I've been trying to improve my grip for awhile and I feel the problem has always been my support hand not being able to clamp down hard enough. I've explored different tractions and methods and all seemed to work only so-so. The clamping style of conventional grips all seem to require vogel-esque grip strength or resulted in premature slide lock from being up too high and forward. I appreciate this thread it has introduced me to other methods that don't require that kind of hand strength.

However....I just found the vid on youtube of Seeklander's grip. I tried it and its the first time I've ever felt my support hand not just clamping but actually pushing on the back of the grip with the palms together the way I hear everyone say it is supposed to happen. I have no idea if this will work in live fire but it is the best way I've heard on how to apply pressure. It's worth the 49 second vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TDZIFrPGuo

[JCN]

Cool Breeze just as an aside, I don’t crush grip and I grip with the force of shaking a 60 year old woman’s hand. Most of my recoil control is passive mechanical rather than active muscle.

A little stipple or small patch of grip tape on the frame for weak thumb placement helps me.

[JCN]

Cool Breeze I previously did this video to show how neutral trigger press and stance mechanics can obviate the need for a crush grip.

Here I’m basically using no grip with fingers off the side of the gun and can still shoot reasonably well at splits that are still faster than some people using a real grip.


https://youtu.be/mrsy7AjEvH4?si=EDPre3DuMN4smYY5

[Disciple]

https://youtu.be/_5jixIPMT6s

Video removed. Is this the same one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM2-gqL8Ess

[1slow]

From what I can get the main thing is that the support hand fingers are shaped into a hook. That shape isn't much different than a standard grip but, in a standard grip you then squeaze/crush. For me a standard grip gives me a fore/aft crush w/ my strong hand and a left/right crush w/ my weak hand. In the Grauffel, the strong hand arm is pushed out and locked. The weak hand hooked fingers are used to pull back against the strong arm/hand. Obviously there is some amount of finger strength used but the majority of the grip strength is done by the shoulder muscles. The first time my wife was trying it, no firing, just holding the gun out lined up w/ the target, I suggested hold the grip for 20 seconds. When she relaxed I asked if she felt any muscle soreness. Yeah, in my shoulders. My understanding is that even someone built like JJ Recaza, used to wear out his hand/finger muscles since he shoots so much. Shoulders are stronger, fingers get a break, and his shooting got better. Over the last year we have realized that her hand strength isn't much. To the point that she now hits the mag release w/ her weak hand thumb because she is 100% that way vs maybe 75% w/ her strong hand thumb. She had tried the weak hand index finger on front of the trigger guard like Lena Micilek uses to control recoil. Felt very awkward to her so after maybe 30rnds she quit that. She likes the Grauffel.



The weak hand hook pulling back against a locked gun arm sounds a lot like the push / pull used in the version of the Weaver I learned in 1982 at Gunsite. Of course there a differences in arm bend etc…

I am reluctant to lock elbows, worried about long term damage.