FN Reflex slimline pistol

[backtrail540]

Internal hammer? Cockedor dao?

https://fnamerica.com/reflex/?j=1007806&sfmc_sub=241283031&l=1134_HTML&u=30073330&mid=7296526&jb=8001

103530

[Jim Watson]

Internal hammer-fired SAO trigger
Smooth 5-lb trigger pull

And no manual safety in sight.

Maybe they use Jeff Cooper's definition of single action, it only works one way... trigger cocking.

[CCT125US]

Someone really needs to have a talk with their marketing department.
103480

[Glenn E. Meyer]

11 round mags - why pick a number that disqualifies it in many major states? So you miss one zombie.

[EVP]

Someone really needs to have a talk with their marketing department.
103480



Hahah I was thinking the same thing as reading the ad. So cringy.

[MattyD380]

Hahah I was thinking the same thing as reading the ad. So cringy.

“Fire-control” needs a hyphen—it’s a compound modifier of “group.”

[pangloss]

Well, at least it looks like an interesting pistol from FN. I'm not clear on the SAO part though. I wonder if they mean something along the lines of the Beretta Type C/Walther Creed/HK LEM.

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[TicTacticalTimmy]

Well, at least it looks like an interesting pistol from FN. I'm not clear on the SAO part though. I wonder if they mean something along the lines of the Beretta Type C/Walther Creed/HK LEM.

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I'm sure its just like the concealed SAO hammer fired guns from Ruger and Smith, nothing like an LEM.

[GJM]

Looks like a nice pistol.

[MTP]

5lb SAO trigger with no manual safety and not even a trigger safety tab. What a great idea.

They'll have to add the definition of 'Unforgiving' to their marketing materials ...

[MTP]

You can see a close-up of the trigger pull starting at 2:50 of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdf-ZAFwuWc)

It has a 'pretend' trigger safety where the trigger hinges (similar to the M&P) but because of the way this one is designed I doubt it is anywhere as effective as other designs. The hinge/pivot point simply sits way too high on the trigger to be effective at preventing unwanted rearward motion because of physical interference with the trigger. Prob just designed to be a part of the drop safety mechanism.

[CalAlumnus]

5lb SAO trigger with no manual safety and not even a trigger safety tab. What a great idea.

They'll have to add the definition of 'Unforgiving' to their marketing materials ...

Asking because I don’t know—the P365 has a roughly 5-6lb trigger and a fully pre-cocked striker. Is an internal hammer SAO worse from a safety perspective than a fully pre-cocked striker gun with the same pull weight? Presumably the FN has a firing pin block.

[GlockenSpiel]

5lb SAO trigger with no manual safety and not even a trigger safety tab. What a great idea.

They'll have to add the definition of 'Unforgiving' to their marketing materials ...

It was only a matter of time really. We've had analogous striker-fired guns for a while, under the rationale that sa striker-fired was somehow different from an sa hammer-fired. If that is indeed the mechanism this gun might just confirm that the real rationale is "out of sight, out of mind." An exposed cocked hammer makes people nervous; if they don't know because they can't see it they're not bothered.

[GJM]

Asking because I don’t know—the P365 has a roughly 5-6lb trigger and a fully pre-cocked striker. Is an internal hammer SAO worse from a safety perspective than a fully pre-cocked striker gun with the same pull weight? Presumably the FN has a firing pin block.

The difference between all the slimline strikers seems pretty minimal -- none are tolerant of poor trigger discipline.

[MTP]

Asking because I don’t know—the P365 has a roughly 5-6lb trigger and a fully pre-cocked striker. Is an internal hammer SAO worse from a safety perspective than a fully pre-cocked striker gun with the same pull weight? Presumably the FN has a firing pin block.

Pretty similar (close to nonexistent IMO) safety margins.

[Polecat]

I like it, can’t wait to see a real review. Was hearing crickets with respect to upcoming NRA. How it comes in .30 super carry!

[zaitcev]

5lb SAO trigger with no manual safety and not even a trigger safety tab. What a great idea.
Once again, the trigger safety tab only exists to make a gun resistant to discharging when dropped. It does not add any safety against improper handing. Therefore, if the mechanism is drop-safe by itself, the trigger tab is entirely superfluous.

[zaitcev]

An exposed cocked hammer makes people nervous; if they don't know because they can't see it they're not bothered.

I don't think there's a need to talk down to the shooting public like that. The exposed hammer can by definition be impacted in ways that the designed of internal hammer does not need to account. It is also susceptible to dirt. In exchange, the exposed hammer provides a measure of safety when holstering. All these features can be considered rationally.

[MTP]

Once again, the trigger safety tab only exists to make a gun resistant to discharging when dropped. It does not add any safety against improper handing. Therefore, if the mechanism is drop-safe by itself, the trigger tab is entirely superfluous.

I disagree with this statement, but I'm not necessarily interested in arguing.

In my own 'amateur' testing, the Glock trigger tab often does plenty to prevent the trigger from being pulled in the case of foreign matter in the trigger guard. Finger on the trigger ? Not so much, I agree.

[MTP]

Once again, the trigger safety tab only exists to make a gun resistant to discharging when dropped. It does not add any safety against improper handing. Therefore, if the mechanism is drop-safe by itself, the trigger tab is entirely superfluous.

Adding to my previous post, this is straight from Glocks's webpage (https://eu.glock.com/en/Technology/Safe-Action-System) ....

" The trigger safety is designed to protect against firing, if the pistol is dropped or the trigger is subjected to lateral pressure. "

[GlockenSpiel]

I don't think there's a need to talk down to the shooting public like that. The exposed hammer can by definition be impacted in ways that the designed of internal hammer does not need to account. It is also susceptible to dirt. In exchange, the exposed hammer provides a measure of safety when holstering. All these features can be considered rationally.

I think you might be missing the point of my post. I am not saying that an internal hammer has no advantages or is inherently bad (they've been around for over a century).

My point is, why is it that fully cocked single-action designs (first striker and now internal hammer) with no manual safety are common, whereas such a configuration with an exposed hammer would not be acceptable?

If you're saying it's because the exposed hammer is actually less safe because it is exposed, I see no evidence of that. Comparably modern exposed hammer guns have both a half cock notch and a firing pin safety, and typically inertial firing pins too; they're very likely more mechanically drop/impact safe (at least in terms of redundancy) than strikers, even when cocked.

Having the firing components internal has also been shown to have little protection against being released by shock or vibration. Fully-cocked striker guns (Walther, HK) have repeatedly been shown on here to be susceptible to dropping their strikers with realistic impacts.

The fact that the internal fully cocked hammer is not visible, and thus not a concern to the user, is the only explanation I can see for this discrepancy.

[MTP]

GlockenSpiel if I understood your point correctly: a user in the "general shooting public" would be unlikely to purchase a 1911 without manual safety, whereas the SAO internal hammer design has a higher chance of being accepted because from the oblivious point of view of the masses it is perceived to be safer (cocked hammer is not visible) ? I agree

Note I'm using terms like 'masses' with a tad of elitist sarcasm ( ;-) ) , but fully agree that the wast majority of the shooting public has no clue and no interest about the internal works of firearms. The same way the vast majority of the scuba diving public has no clue about the differences between a piston vs diafragm regulator, and the benefits/drawbacks of each type, for example.

[GlockenSpiel]

MTP I think you understood perfectly, and the scuba analogy is a good one.

To clarify, my "it was only a matter of time" comment refers to the fact the industry has been slowly going in this direction, not necessarily a comment on the decline of the shooting public. Give me a few more visits to the public range down here and I might be making that comment too though, we'll see.

[Noah]

I disagree with this statement, but I'm not necessarily interested in arguing.

In my own 'amateur' testing, the Glock trigger tab often does plenty to prevent the trigger from being pulled in the case of foreign matter in the trigger guard. Finger on the trigger ? Not so much, I agree.

A tabbed trigger safety does actually help with friction against the side of the trigger, like the video in another thread where the kydex holster pulls the trigger on the HK just by from the kydex on the sides of a trigger.

I've also personally experienced the rounded shape and slim tab of a Glock OEM trigger shoe prevent an AD in a Blackhawk universal holster that allowed too much trigger access.

[zaitcev]

If you're saying it's because the exposed hammer is actually less safe because it is exposed, I see no evidence of that. Comparably modern exposed hammer guns have both a half cock notch and a firing pin safety, and typically inertial firing pins too; they're very likely more mechanically drop/impact safe (at least in terms of redundancy) than strikers, even when cocked.

It's a good point but I just as you see no evidence, I see no evidence that users are to blame. If competitive SAO guns with automatic safeties were offered by the manufacturers, and rejected by the market, certain grounds for such complaints would exist. And by the way, I'm sure that some would still recoil in horror per your model, but I expect that not everyone would.

[MattyD380]

GlockenSpiel if I understood your point correctly: a user in the "general shooting public" would be unlikely to purchase a 1911 without manual safety, whereas the SAO internal hammer design has a higher chance of being accepted because from the oblivious point of view of the masses it is perceived to be safer (cocked hammer is not visible) ? I agree

Note I'm using terms like 'masses' with a tad of elitist sarcasm ( ;-) ) , but fully agree that the wast majority of the shooting public has no clue and no interest about the internal works of firearms. The same way the vast majority of the scuba diving public has no clue about the differences between a piston vs diafragm regulator, and the benefits/drawbacks of each type, for example.

I agree, too.

GlockenSpiel expressed, cogently, what I've always thought in terms of the paradox with "non-visible fully cocked actions." If you don't see a cocked a hammer, it seems less... volatile.

Another related phenomenon that I think is kinda interesting...

Kydex holsters have, in essence, become the safeties that guns now lack.

[GJM]

I just watched the Noir video -- looks interesting. I bet a PF dollar we will really love or hate the trigger.

[mcgivro]

Someone really needs to have a talk with their marketing department.
103480

1 + 11 + 15 = 27

[CCT125US]

1 + 11 + 15 = 27

Thanks for the math lesson, professor.

G26 1 + 10 + 32 = 43

Any disclosures you need to make?

[littlejerry]

Does FN support their products these days? I've lost count of the random releases over the years that get no traction and no factory support from them.

[Trukinjp13]

I like it. If the trigger is halfway decent this is a good setup imho.

But it’s not HK or Beretta so I guess we all should just hate it.


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[Trukinjp13]

Does FN support their products these days? I've lost count of the random releases over the years that get no traction and no factory support from them.

They released the 509 in like 2017. They are still making them and more models for us. Even big bore fellas. I think we can can this rhetoric of FN not supporting pistols and building something new after a couple years. They built shit that we the consumer did not like and moved on. Personally I’d rather get a new design than tweaking a flawed design. Im also a dude who has been a huge fan of the 509 and mine has never failed me. So maybe I’m biased.


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[MrInox]

It’s an FN polymer pistol. Teething problems tend to be baked into those.

[Noah]

I like it. If the trigger is halfway decent this is a good setup imho.

But it’s not HK or Beretta so I guess we all should just hate it.

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Don't forget Glocks and M&P 2.0s with Apex barrels!

But HK and Beretta are the best.

[LittleLebowski]

It’s an FN polymer pistol. Teething problems tend to be baked into those.

Yup.

[LockedBreech]

They released the 509 in like 2017. They are still making them and more models for us. Even big bore fellas. I think we can can this rhetoric of FN not supporting pistols and building something new after a couple years. They built shit that we the consumer did not like and moved on. Personally I’d rather get a new design than tweaking a flawed design. Im also a dude who has been a huge fan of the 509 and mine has never failed me. So maybe I’m biased.


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I do think the 509 seems to be a good design, but 2017 is still recent in the gun world. 5 years is not very long. For some contrast, looking at their direct industry competitors, the first Glock 17 came out in 1984, which was about 39 years ago. The first M&P was released in 2005, about 18 years ago. The HK P30 was released in 2006, about 17 years ago, and the HK VP9 was released in 2014, about 9 years ago. Even the Sig P320, which is actively undergoing teething issues still, was released in 2014, about 9 years ago.

It's true that compared to the vast majority of their industry competitors, FN designs tend not to be very mature. Even another industry latecomer, Beretta with the APX (also 2017) is at least backed with the confidence that Beretta tends to back their designs for a long, long time (for example, it's still relatively easy to get PX4 and Cougar 8000 parts).

I like the 509. It's comfortable, seems reliable, and has given about 5 years of apparently good service. However, FN has earned their reputation and the only way to earn their way out of it is to show long, deep track records of support for new designs including the 509. I honestly hope they do.

It sorta reminds me of something I learned at a business class (or seminar or something, can't recall) about why Japanese vehicles, by and large, tend to enjoy superior reliability over American-made vehicles. Japanese business culture when it comes to automobiles, particularly the juggernauts like Honda and Toyota, focuses on refinement. You develop a sound basic design, then refine and adjust and improve it over 10-15 years, rarely introducing anything absolutely revolutionary. It might mean you're a step behind competitors more often than not in terms of new and innovative features (something Glock, HK, and Beretta are absolutely guilty of) but the benefit you get is that the systems tend to be well-developed, deeply-tested, mature, and very trustworthy. I see similar stuff happening in the gun world. FN and Sig are very often ahead of the curve in innovation, but in terms of quality control and refinement I would generally trust a Glock, HK, or Beretta first, at least these days.

That's not an absolute rule, of course. The Beretta Nano sucked, for instance, and was not reliable. And it's always worth repeating TG's mantra that you should never trust any brand, only your individual gun once it has been vetted by you personally, because even the best brands produce lemons.

All of that is a long winded way to say....the treatment FN gets is fair given their track record. But it does seem like there's at least some real effort to earn their way out of that and produce a mature platform in the 509/510. But as the old saw goes, trust is hard to earn and easy to lose.

[Trukinjp13]

I do think the 509 seems to be a good design, but 2017 is still recent in the gun world. 5 years is not very long. For some contrast, looking at their direct industry competitors, the first Glock 17 came out in 1984, which was about 39 years ago. The first M&P was released in 2005, about 18 years ago. The HK P30 was released in 2006, about 17 years ago, and the HK VP9 was released in 2014, about 9 years ago. Even the Sig P320, which is actively undergoing teething issues still, was released in 2014, about 9 years ago.

It's true that compared to the vast majority of their industry competitors, FN designs tend not to be very mature. Even another industry latecomer, Beretta with the APX (also 2017) is at least backed with the confidence that Beretta tends to back their designs for a long, long time (for example, it's still relatively easy to get PX4 and Cougar 8000 parts).

I like the 509. It's comfortable, seems reliable, and has given about 5 years of apparently good service. However, FN has earned their reputation and the only way to earn their way out of it is to show long, deep track records of support for new designs including the 509. I honestly hope they do.

It sorta reminds me of something I learned at a business class (or seminar or something, can't recall) about why Japanese vehicles, by and large, tend to enjoy superior reliability over American-made vehicles. Japanese business culture when it comes to automobiles, particularly the juggernauts like Honda and Toyota, focuses on refinement. You develop a sound basic design, then refine and adjust and improve it over 10-15 years, rarely introducing anything absolutely revolutionary. It might mean you're a step behind competitors more often than not in terms of new and innovative features (something Glock, HK, and Beretta are absolutely guilty of) but the benefit you get is that the systems tend to be well-developed, deeply-tested, mature, and very trustworthy. I see similar stuff happening in the gun world. FN and Sig are very often ahead of the curve in innovation, but in terms of quality control and refinement I would generally trust a Glock, HK, or Beretta first, at least these days.

That's not an absolute rule, of course. The Beretta Nano sucked, for instance, and was not reliable. And it's always worth repeating TG's mantra that you should never trust any brand, only your individual gun once it has been vetted by you personally, because even the best brands produce lemons.

All of that is a long winded way to say....the treatment FN gets is fair given their track record. But it does seem like there's at least some real effort to earn their way out of that and produce a mature platform in the 509/510. But as the old saw goes, trust is hard to earn and easy to lose.

I understand what you are trying to get at. My entire career is in the auto/diesel field.

As far as Fn and their pistols though, they needed to can the pistols they did. The designs themselves were flawed and there was no coming back. They needed a wipe and rebuild. The 509 has been fairly successful for the lack of their advertising department. Certain manufacturers have came out with new designs and everyone ran to them because they had flashy marketing and content creators backing them. Only for people to realize they were really not that great and mostly overblown. The 509 is what their second striker pistol in 12 or 13 years? The fns had about zero love and they did nothing to improve the line or really release any special models. The 509 has a pretty big lineup now and they have gained some contracts from it. I just feel like everyone that keeps with the attitude that they are just going to change the design and their is no reason for me to try them is sort of counter productive.

How is a manufacturer supposed to keep pouring money into a design and keep it alive if the end users are not jumping on board to try and support the product. (Not that I think they are going to can the 509)


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[LockedBreech]

I understand what you are trying to get at. My entire career is in the auto/diesel field.

As far as Fn and their pistols though, they needed to can the pistols they did. The designs themselves were flawed and there was no coming back. They needed a wipe and rebuild. The 509 has been fairly successful for the lack of their advertising department. Certain manufacturers have came out with new designs and everyone ran to them because they had flashy marketing and content creators backing them. Only for people to realize they were really not that great and mostly overblown. The 509 is what their second striker pistol in 12 or 13 years? The fns had about zero love and they did nothing to improve the line or really release any special models. The 509 has a pretty big lineup now and they have gained some contracts from it. I just feel like everyone that keeps with the attitude that they are just going to change the design and their is no reason for me to try them is sort of counter productive.

How is a manufacturer supposed to keep pouring money into a design and keep it alive if the end users are not jumping on board to try and support the product. (Not that I think they are going to can the 509)


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That's a fair point. There's no doubt the FNP/FNS line needed to go.

[Pukindog12]

That's a fair point. There's no doubt the FNP/FNS line needed to go.

I am contrary to that opinion. My one FNS 9 and two FNS 9c(s) have been superb. In fact my 9c(s) are the two I'd grab first if the shit hits the fan.

I am aware that different departments had problems that gave the FNS 9 a black eye and FN could've handled it better, but I know of a few owners (including myself) that have had zero problems. I am sure there are others out there that share my expeience.

I, for one, am looking forward to the Reflex. I hope it does well.

[LockedBreech]

I am contrary to that opinion. My one FNS 9 and two FNS 9c(s) have been superb. In fact my 9c(s) are the two I'd grab first if the shit hits the fan.

I am aware that different departments had problems that gave the FNS 9 a black eye and FN could've handled it better, but I know of a few owners (including myself) that have had zero problems. I am sure there are others out there that share my expeience.

I, for one, am looking forward to the Reflex. I hope it does well.

Did the FNS have the unintended discharge issue or was that solely confined to the FNP?

[Trukinjp13]

Did the FNS have the unintended discharge issue or was that solely confined to the FNP?

The Fns had an issue after first releasing. But they quickly fixed the problem, kinda was screwed after that though. Could never gain traction. My Fns had idk how many thousands of rounds through it with no issues.


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[RAM Engineer]

Wow, the FN 503 had an amazingly short production life, even for a FN pistol. 3 years maybe?

[zaitcev]

That's not an absolute rule, of course. The Beretta Nano sucked, for instance, and was not reliable.
That example may actually bolster your point, because Beretta didn't abandon Nano. Instead, they re-skinned it as "APX Carry" in the A1 generation. Same magazines, same everything. Hopefully more reliable.

[LockedBreech]

That example may actually bolster your point, because Beretta didn't abandon Nano. Instead, they re-skinned it as "APX Carry" in the A1 generation. Same magazines, same everything. Hopefully more reliable.

I have been quite curious whether they addressed the issues under the hood. Things have been fairly quiet regarding the APX Carry.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Ive shot under 200 rounds from my apx a1 carry. No hollowpoints, but the feed angle is almost totally straight so im sure it will do fine. Its been totally reliable and very shootable for its size. Almost dramatically more shootable than a Kahr P9. Very high value gun IMO.

I am however thinking I should just sell it as I havent been able to find a good holster for it.

[Noah]

Ive shot under 200 rounds from my apx a1 carry. No hollowpoints, but the feed angle is almost totally straight so im sure it will do fine. Its been totally reliable and very shootable for its size. Almost dramatically more shootable than a Kahr P9. Very high value gun IMO.

I am however thinking I should just sell it as I havent been able to find a good holster for it.

Nothing amazing, but this looks claw and DCC compatible at least.

https://muddyrivertactical.com/product/beretta-apx-a1-carry-holster/

[Polecat]

The reflex has turned out to my favorite if the bunch. Accurate, great trigger. So far so good, about 500 trouble free rounds.

[Beat Trash]

The reflex has turned out to my favorite if the bunch. Accurate, great trigger. So far so good, about 500 trouble free rounds.

I hate to bring up an old topic but I have yet to see an FN Reflex in the flesh.

I am looking for a 9mm with a slide that's easy for someone with diminished hand strength to manipulate. I looked at the S&W Shield EZ and Equalizer, but the reverse grip safety has me concerned for a couple of reasons.

Both the S&W's and the FN Reflex have the SA hammer which is supposed to make the slide easier to manage.

For those who now the FN Reflex, how are they working out for you?

And is the slide actually easier to manipulate than a striker fired pistol?

[newyork]

Walther PDP-F?

[Beat Trash]

Walther PDP-F?

I’ve never handled a PDP-F. Is the slide easy to manage?

[newyork]

I’ve never handled a PDP-F. Is the slide easy to manage?

I haven’t either but I believe that’s one of the selling point. Fits small hands and easy to manipulate. Stupid name but I believe the “f” is for female.