Ever feel yourself pulled into wanting something you should avoid?

[HeavyDuty]

Yeah, this is one of those.

I have a thing for bobtailed 1911s, my pair of DW ECPs have spoiled me. I’d also been fighting the urge for a 10mm 1911, and not because I have any need for such a thing here in TX. When I started considering a 10mm, there was a reason - I was living in NH and doing backwoods photography. Plus, today is a rough day so I am likely compensating.

The issue is that there is only one 5” 10mm 1911 with a bobtail that I can find without looking at custom pistols - the Kimber Camp Guard. I first saw these at a store in NH, and I was actually impressed. But, I know Kimber has a *lot* of detractors.

What are concrete reasons I should avoid a Kimber 1911, preferably not ones that are hearsay? Remember, the appeal here is not just the cartridge, it’s the platform.

[coN]

A DWX even though my Shadow 2 does 90 - 95% of what the DWX does. Hard to avoid because the DWX is everywhere but I try...

That an an hex STI...

[Joe in PNG]

Yeah, this is one of those.

I have a thing for bobtailed 1911s, my pair of DW ECPs have spoiled me. I’d also been fighting the urge for a 10mm 1911, and not because I have any need for such a thing here in TX. When I started considering a 10mm, there was a reason - I was living in NH and doing backwoods photography. Plus, today is a rough day so I am likely compensating.

The issue is that there is only one 5” 10mm 1911 with a bobtail that I can find without looking at custom pistols - the Kimber Camp Guard. I first saw these at a store in NH, and I was actually impressed. But, I know Kimber has a *lot* of detractors.

What are concrete reasons I should avoid a Kimber 1911, preferably not ones that are hearsay? Remember, the appeal here is not just the cartridge, it’s the platform.

I think it was Tam who noted that you'll probably need to do the same amount of parts swapping, fitting, & problem chasing with a Kimber that you would with almost any 1911 in that price range.

[HeavyDuty]

I think it was Tam who noted that you'll probably need to do the same amount of parts swapping, fitting, & problem chasing with a Kimber that you would with almost any 1911 in that price range.

That’s my rationalization - so long as the slide and frame are ok, the little bits can be swapped out as needed. But you know how rationalizations can be.

[Robinson]

My Kimber LW Government 9mm has been solid enough that it's my current carry gun. No malfunctions, no firing pin safety.

[parishioner]

I have no clue if the department is currently operational, but Dan Wesson has a "custom" contact form you can complete for inquiries.

See if they can build you one to your specs.

[SW CQB 45]

There is a buddy at work who for a spell (when on Patrol) carried his Kimber Rail Gun. The gun looks beat up and he is country (farm/ranch and hunting life) and he told me that gun has umpteen rounds through it.

It looks it and it runs. He got lucky with it.

I can't recall who said, you either get a good Kimber or you got to work on it.

I don't keep up with their models, but a co-worker of a friend, brought me a Kimber to work on with the external or Glock like extractor. It was missing parts because the owner jacked with it. When I got the parts, OMG were the vulgarities high. My big fingers could not install it. IIRC, it took 4 hands for install. I told the co-worker to tell his friend DONT "F" with the extractor anymore.

[358156hp]

Since I just replaced almost all the small parts in a Springfield RO Operator, I can't fault Tams conclusion. Looking back, I see a long history of my doing this over and over. I swear that Kimbers are built to look at, not to shoot. If you shoot them, you'll break something. You know what you're doing, do let us know how it works out for you and maybe others will follow. Or maybe they'll pick on you:). What you're proposing worked on AMTs and Auto-Ordinance in the olden days. Hopefully Kimbers metallurgy is better than the sum of their assembly.

[Elwin]

I’ll just add that it’s not too terribly difficult or expensive to have a gun bobbed, especially if it’s a stainless frame. That would open up options from, at a minimum, DW and Springfield.

Also I wouldn’t worry as much about that specific Kimber as others since it doesn’t have the Swartz safety. I’ve mentioned this on here before but I had to do a good bit of work tuning the drop safeties on both of my Series II Kimbers. I’m happy with them now and don’t mind at all having a functional drop safety, but man it was a pain getting them functional, because Kimber does absolutely nothing to make sure their guns ship with properly tuned and coordinated grip safeties and Swartz parts.

[HeavyDuty]

I have no clue if the department is currently operational, but Dan Wesson has a "custom" contact form you can complete for inquiries.

See if they can build you one to your specs.

When I talked to them last year, they said the custom shop was defunct.

[BillSWPA]

My Kimber 1911 is a series 1 Classic Royal (5" barrel) .45, purchased before they began using the Schwartz firing pin safety. Out of the box, it was well over over 99% reliable but not quite at 100%. Replacing the extractor with a Wilson extractor that I tensioned myself as I learned the process of doing so, and replacing the firing pin stop with an oversize Wilson stop that was fitted by a gunsmith resulted in 100% reliability.

I do not know the round count, but it is multiple thousands of rounds. i have worn out a slide stop (replaced with Wilson which dropped right in) and a barrel bushing (replaced by an EGW angled bushing fitted by a gunsmith). Prior to wearing out the bushing and after replacing it, the gun was quite accurate.

I replaced the firing pin with a titanium firing pin and the firing pin spring with an extra power Wolff spring for enhanced drop safety. This combination has never caused a light strike in thousands of rounds.

The gun came with a 16 lb. recoil spring. I currently use 18.5 lb. Neither spring was the cause of any reliability issues. I replace the spring when it is 3 coils shorter than new.

At the time I bought my gun, Wilson Combat was using Kimber frames and slides for their pistols. At least one other gunsmith had a business model of improving 1911's by starting with a Kimber and replacing the MIM parts with machined, hand-fitted parts.

[45dotACP]

You'll get no help from me. My Kimber was a better gun than my Colt by a long shot.

I sold them both because I have a LOT of other 1911s, but the Stainless Target II 9mm was reliable and accurate as hell.


If you're not afraid of doing a little work then a $1K or under 1911 ain't that bad...and of those 1911s, Kimber is still decent for a 1k(ish) 1911.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[1911Nut]

When I talked to them last year, they said the custom shop was defunct.

I was told the same thing by DW folks. Shortly after they had installed a ledge rear sight and a gold bead front sight on my Dan Wesson Guardian in .45 ACP. Glad I placed that order when I did!

[BillSWPA]

Since the Schwartz system seems to have had issues:

On my Kimber, when the hammer is cocked, the factory hammer and factory beavertail grip safety seem to fit together in a manner that results in the beavertail protecting the hammer from a direct blow in the direction towards the firing pin. The only angle at which I could imagine a direct blow to the hammer would be parallel to the longitudinal axis of the hammer.

While I have not actually tested this theory by dropping the gun, it appears that a Kimber (or other 1911's with beavertail grip safeties and hammers that fit therein) would be quite drop safe, particularly if one has paid attention to the firing pin spring, and/or uses a titanium firing pin and extra power spring.

[Up1911Fan]

I would just get a DW and bobtail that if you must.

[HeavyDuty]

I’ve never considered having one bobtailed before - I’ll look around at who is doing it.

[Caballoflaco]

I wouldn’t buy another 10mm 1911 unless I wanted to use my spare time to repeatedly send it back to the factory. Iirc HCM has had a similar 10mm 1911 experience.

[TheNewbie]

Since the Schwartz system seems to have had issues:

On my Kimber, when the hammer is cocked, the factory hammer and factory beavertail grip safety seem to fit together in a manner that results in the beavertail protecting the hammer from a direct blow in the direction towards the firing pin. The only angle at which I could imagine a direct blow to the hammer would be parallel to the longitudinal axis of the hammer.

While I have not actually tested this theory by dropping the gun, it appears that a Kimber (or other 1911's with beavertail grip safeties and hammers that fit therein) would be quite drop safe, particularly if one has paid attention to the firing pin spring, and/or uses a titanium firing pin and extra power spring.

Can the Schwartz system be made reliable?


Ned Christiansen spoke of a mod that might fix the issue. Maybe even posted it here?

[HCM]

Yeah, this is one of those.

I have a thing for bobtailed 1911s, my pair of DW ECPs have spoiled me. I’d also been fighting the urge for a 10mm 1911, and not because I have any need for such a thing here in TX. When I started considering a 10mm, there was a reason - I was living in NH and doing backwoods photography. Plus, today is a rough day so I am likely compensating.

The issue is that there is only one 5” 10mm 1911 with a bobtail that I can find without looking at custom pistols - the Kimber Camp Guard. I first saw these at a store in NH, and I was actually impressed. But, I know Kimber has a *lot* of detractors.

What are concrete reasons I should avoid a Kimber 1911, preferably not ones that are hearsay? Remember, the appeal here is not just the cartridge, it’s the platform.

Friends don’t let friends 10mm 1911.

To get a 10 mm to run to a level of reliability, similar to a 45 it requires tuning the gun for a specific load and using specific magazines. Even then, if you have to fire the gun one-handed, you are likely to compromise reliability.

As for Kimber…

103470

I’ve had 7 Kimbers over the years including a series 1. The only one that ran without gunsmithing was a Stainless Series II in 9mm which ai only bought out of desperation because it was the only 9mm 1911 I could find at the time.

I’ve never had a Schwarz system failure but plenty of feeding, extraction and ejection issues, tight chambers not cut properly, rusting barrels, broken ambi safety, improperly fitted slide stop, wrong size slide stop installed in the gun from the factory (9mm /.38 super SS installed in a .45) which would cause lock back with rounds in the magazine.,

I’ve had at least three Kimber’s that were sent back to the factory, returned as inspect or repaired, which had the same issues they had when they left, and we’re subsequently corrected by local gunsmiths.

[Evil_Ed]

The only 10mm 1911 I'd consider would be a Colt - they pioneered it and were the first to release a 10mm 1911, so if anyone would know how to make a gun run it would be them. Polymer guide rod/buffer and all the other little changes add up. It's probably the only 10mm 1911 that I wouldn't feel the need to start swapping parts out on either...except maybe the thumb safety as the current iteration isn't dehorned enough for my liking - purely preference. I'd replace it with a Wilson Combat bulletproof unit. I'm a Colt fanboy though, so YMMV.

If only I could find a Delta Elite Railgun, or the two-tone they list on their site...

[Hambo]

My experience with an early Kimber was good...as a lesson in gunsmithing. Really, a few parts changes and it was great. A buddy was not so lucky with a later model.

However, I think the problem is the cartridge. A look at 10mm vs .45 +P on Hodgdon's reloading site shows no significant difference with 200gr bullets, yet people buy into the 10mm mystique. Get a .45, a heavier recoil spring, and call Lost River to see what he can whip up for you in .45 Auto. Better yet, just do the GJM USP.

[JAH 3rd]

Wants versus needs, for me, is the emotional turmoil I go through when the thought of a new firearm enters my mind. Just picture on your left shoulder "No I don't need it", then on the right shoulder "Yes I deserve a new firearm for whatever reason". And it festers until my FFL calls and says you have a new firearm to pick up.

Being pulled in a certain direction is real. My next firearm purchase most always begins with the previous paragraph. It can be a struggle. My real regret usually sets in when I get my next credit card statement.

[HeavyDuty]

Thanks for talking me off the ledge, folks. I think that I really can’t justify a 10mm of any kind, and picking up a Kimber would be a risk. I also didn’t realize bobtailing was this inexpensive (I saw several places with prices in the $100 range without refinishing, plus parts.). The whole idea is shelved.

Especially since I just found out Ruger released a 1911 configuration that has been my grail - a lightweight 5”…

https://ruger.com/products/sr1911Standard/specSheets/6792.html

No bobtail but I will live.

[JonInWA]

Good choice and thought process.

Pretty much the only 10mm I'd even remotely consider would be a Glock 20.

Best, Jon

[Jim Watson]

A matter of taste, but I had the first Bobtail on my block when the only route was getting FLG to use the Brown jig and mainspring housing to convert. It felt nice in the hand, but made the sights come up low. No doubt I could have gotten used to it, but I had other guns to consider, so I sold it off. I think a slight round cut on the very corner of the butt would be enough to reduce printing.

[Elwin]

Can the Schwartz system be made reliable?


Ned Christiansen spoke of a mod that might fix the issue. Maybe even posted it here?

Yes. It’s entirely possible, and the problem is that if real smiths were putting the damn guns together at Kimber they would come that way in the box.

What you need to do is first confirm your grip safety is tuned just as with any 1911. Whatever your preferred minimum travel required to allow trigger movement is, make sure your grip safety is doing that.

Then check to see if at the point right where the grip safety allows trigger movement, the drop safety is completely or partially engaged. The problem with an untuned Swartz is that it is possible to have a situation where the grip safety is allowing the trigger to hit the sear so the hammer drops, but the firing pin block is still in place or close enough the firing pin is dragging on it. This means you can pull the trigger and get a click, which is obviously unacceptable.

The solution is to use a chain saw file to file down the firing pin block until it is fully out of the way of the firing pin as soon as the grip safety is out of the trigger bow’s way. It’s not that hard, but requires getting the rear sight out to access the Swartz parts and then doing a lot of filing and testing, filing and testing.

Speaking of testing, the way to do this is put the eraser end of a pencil down the barrel, point slightly upwards, and pull the trigger. No pencil movement means the firing pin is entirely blocked. Any movement that’s less than being ejected from the barrel with authority means it’s partially blocked. Work on the block until the pencil gets yeeted out the barrel when the grip safety is just barely disengaged.

[Totem Polar]

Especially since I just found out Ruger released a 1911 configuration that has been my grail - a lightweight 5”…

https://ruger.com/products/sr1911Standard/specSheets/6792.html



It just so happens that I noticed that release too. I can therefore vouch that #1 none of my friendly LGS has one yet, or this response might include pics, and #2, the feedback from the guys behind multiple counters is that the commander iteration appears to have been received well by customers, and seems trouble-free. I think I might grab one of those 31 oz Gov’t models…

[mmc45414]

I also didn’t realize bobtailing was this inexpensive (I saw several places with prices in the $100 range without refinishing, plus parts.).
I have never done one, but have been tempted, it seems like a simple process you can do with a simple drill press using a simple jig.

[Elwin]

I have never done one, but have been tempted, it seems like a simple process you can do with a simple drill press using a simple jig.

Totally doable as long as you have that drill press and you’re very careful to drill correctly and then not over file anything. Ed Brown sells the parts and jigs.

[Evil_Ed]

It just so happens that I noticed that release too. I can therefore vouch that #1 none of my friendly LGS has one yet, or this response might include pics, and #2, the feedback from the guys behind multiple counters is that the commander iteration appears to have been received well by customers, and seems trouble-free. I think I might grab one of those 31 oz Gov’t models…

The only "gotcha" I'm aware of with Ruger 1911s is the front sight likes (liked?) to break off - there was enough of a gap between the blade and the top of the slide where the blade could literally break itself off from too much movement fore and aft/up and down.

I don't know if Ruger's fixed it between materials and/or redesign of the front sight. I haven't heard of anything recent about it, so it might be a non-issue these days...

[HeavyDuty]

The only "gotcha" I'm aware of with Ruger 1911s is the front sight likes (liked?) to break off - there was enough of a gap between the blade and the top of the slide where the blade could literally break itself off from too much movement fore and aft/up and down.

I don't know if Ruger's fixed it between materials and/or redesign of the front sight. I haven't heard of anything recent about it, so it might be a non-issue these days...

I’m not a three dot fan, so after testing I swapped out the sights on my Ruger Officers to a Wilson adjustable rear and Dawson fiber optic front.

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/REAR-SIGHT-1911-TACTICAL-ADJUSTABLE-BATTLESIGHT-TAB-SERRATED-BLADE-BLACK/productinfo/860/

[Lost River]

My experience with an early Kimber was good...as a lesson in gunsmithing. Really, a few parts changes and it was great. A buddy was not so lucky with a later model.

However, I think the problem is the cartridge. A look at 10mm vs .45 +P on Hodgdon's reloading site shows no significant difference with 200gr bullets, yet people buy into the 10mm mystique. Get a .45, a heavier recoil spring, and call Lost River to see what he can whip up for you in .45 Auto. Better yet, just do the GJM USP.

There is a lot to this.

The majority of the people are stuck in conventional thinking when it comes to the .45. It really never was developed to its true commercial potential. The fact is that heavy, wide flat nose bullets moving beyond the traditional sedate speeds really turn the .45 ACP into a whole new animal.

https://i.imgur.com/knKmmW0h.jpg

I was carrying my Baer today along with some 250 WFNs. Sadly no elephants or buffalo needed dispatched. I did see a few hippos, but that happens pretty often these days, as the American hippo is a common species across our land, and the closer you get to a Walmart, the more you are likely to spot them in large numbers. Along with other Walmartians. :)

[awp_101]

Ever feel yourself pulled into wanting something you should avoid?
On a regular basis.

I love the look and feel of a Single Action Army but I can't see or use the sights worth a damn. I've sold every USFA/Vaquero/Bearcat/Great Western Arms/Pietta/Uberti I've ever owned because of that. Yet here I am scrolling through Guns International and contemplating another Great Western Arms. Fortunately it doesn't have the beautiful CCH of the last one I had so I'll probably be able to resist. Probably.

I love the look of 1911s set up for Bullseye and other competitions. I don't compete, yet here I am scrolling through Guns International (again!) looking for either a base gun to convert as a tribute or someone's old competition rig for short money.

[Crusader]

With Kimber it comes down to quality control or lack of it, I’ve owned several over the years. Like others have said most of them needed some tuning to run right. I’ve had to adjust the extractor tension on one and finish ream the chamber on two, those were all series one guns. Surprisingly one of the best guns I have ever owned was/is a series two CDP pro I bought new back in very early 2001. I’ve owned that gun for 22 years now, put untold thousands of rounds through it. Use to carry it a lot off duty, not so much anymore. That old finish they used back then may not be as pretty as their newer finishes but man does it last, gun still looks pretty good. The only things I have ever done to the gun, is replace the sights when the tritium died and put a EB MSH in it(tossed the stock plastic one).

[noguns]

Whenever I go on PF.

Instead on focusing on my pistolcraft I’m distracted by shiny hardware instead. I’m currently on another 1911 kick after selling them off during covid. I’m too cheap and too small to edc a 2011 so I’m having fun with the good old single stacks. No regrets though! Except for the selling part.

[mmc45414]

It is weird, maybe getting old, but I have changed. For almost fifty years I swear I had a yearn to buy every cool pistol or revolver in any caliber it was chambered in. I had some kinda epiphany a while ago, for years I thought it was stupid to have things that were (or close to) identical, but suddenly realized I now want more of the same thing. And whatever I have, I want to be in the process of wearing it out.

I am most weakest on pistols and revolvers. I want things like a 6" stainless GP-100 with an optic, don't know why. But I also have been able to set boundaries for myself. One example is lever guns. I have decided that no matter how cool they are, I just do not need (in my situation) to jump on to another slippery slope. But I might like to have several more autoloading shotguns that I don't need either...

[mmc45414]

One example is lever guns.
I might add that the AR-10 is another one I am stiving to avoid, but it is hard boss, really hard... :cool:

[JAH 3rd]

We are joined at the hip thought-wise. For the first time in my life, there isn't a long gun or handgun on the gotta have radar. The latest temptation was the discussion (thanks HeavyDuty) on the lightweight Ruger 1911 full-size pistol. Don't need one, don't want one until I had this yes I do/no I don't debate in my head. So far, I have resisted. I know that fire could pop up again.

Rationalization is my biggest stumbling block. I can convince myself why I need a particular firearm. And yes, I did purchase a Ruger GP100 4" stainless revolver a few months back. Actually I did not have a stainless double-action .357 revolver so that's all the reason I needed to buy one.

Resistance is a second by second battle when I find myself contemplating a new firearm purchase that I really don't need. It is all about the wants!!

[mmc45414]

For the first time in my life, there isn't a long gun or handgun on the gotta have radar.
Well, I don't wanna misrepresent myself.... :cool:

Right now there are probably three things that I do feel an actual need, or at least a desire for:
- 22/45: I have one with sights, want a second one for an optic
- Another M&P 9mm: I have three 5" (one with an optic), and a Compact and a Subcompact, I want to get a 4.25 gun for a PMM comp (and an optic)
- Shield Plus: In a recent purge in my quest to get an RL1100 I sold my Shield, and am starting to miss it, and want to replace it with a Shield Plus, this is probably the next thing I will actually buy, and good that I already have a spare set of sights for it

[JAH 3rd]

Well, I don't wanna misrepresent myself.... :cool:

Right now there are probably three things that I do feel an actual need, or at least a desire for:
- 22/45: I have one with sights, want a second one for an optic
- Another M&P 9mm: I have three 5" (one with an optic), and a Compact and a Subcompact, I want to get a 4.25 gun for a PMM comp (and an optic)
- Shield Plus: In a recent purge in my quest to get an RL1100 I sold my Shield, and am starting to miss it, and want to replace it with a Shield Plus, this is probably the next thing I will actually buy, and good that I already have a spare set of sights for it

I bought a Shield Plus about a year ago. Really like this pistol. The grip texture really helps anchor this pistol in my hand. Good choices for your other acquisitions. I have a Ruger MKII target pistol. I don't know how the lawyers let that pistol leave the building with such a light trigger pull. I'm an M&P fan too. Mine are 45acp. The 2.0 stock trigger is such an improvement over the 1.0.

[BWT]

Ever feel yourself pulled into wanting something you should avoid?

Yes, I sold my Dad’s house earlier this week and we’re getting close to the funeral (everyone wanted to delay it from December), and I was convinced I needed an MP5 SD clone.

The feelings passed.

A lot of how I’ve coped in life with hard times is giving myself something to buy that’s a goal to work towards.

Springfield Armory TRP was my graduation gift to myself. .45 ACP prices keep me from shooting it.

[LockedBreech]

A lot of how I’ve coped in life with hard times is giving myself something to buy that’s a goal to work towards.



I'm exactly the same. A good part of my collection was finals prep, passing the bar, etc. The 170th anniversary Zastava ZPAP I just put on order was for a year without fast food or delivery.

I actually think it's a pretty healthy motivation as long as you follow through with the goal, even if that goal is just to get past a hard time successfully and healthily.

[mmc45414]

I was convinced I needed an MP5 SD clone. The feelings passed.
Springfield Armory TRP was my graduation gift to myself. .45 ACP prices keep me from shooting it.
Maybe buy a press with the MP-5 money, reloading 45 ACP is like printing money. :cool:

[BWT]

Maybe buy a press with the MP-5 money, reloading 45 ACP is like printing money. :cool:

I inherited a Dillon 650XL.

I’m sorting it out - just a bit numb with it all. Thus the desire to impulse buy.

ETA: Sorry for my tangent. One of the things with grief is “retail therapy”. I’m avoiding purchases for that reason if that makes sense. Just realize feelings are all over the place it’ll simmer down.

[mmc45414]

Thus the desire to impulse buy.
Primers are always a good investment... :cool:

[HeavyDuty]

I inherited a Dillon 650XL.

I’m sorting it out - just a bit numb with it all. Thus the desire to impulse buy.

ETA: Sorry for my tangent. One of the things with grief is “retail therapy”. I’m avoiding purchases for that reason if that makes sense. Just realize feelings are all over the place it’ll simmer down.

It is definitely a thing. Been there, done that.

[awp_101]

https://youtu.be/RAPrCxH4vQI?si=dBpMq4F0h3S4O-Nc