Question for the Professional Shotgunners

[Paul Blackburn]

In terms of self protection, when is a modern shotgun the best option for civilian/LE and why?

[DDTSGM]

In general terms here is my take for the average trained person:

In situations where the expected adversary is unarmored, three or less in number, (assuming at least 5 round capacity) and the most likely engagement distance is within 3 - 12 yards.

Looking forward to reading what others post.

[TGS]

In general terms here is my take for the average trained person:

In situations where the expected adversary is unarmored, three or less in number, (assuming at least 5 round capacity) and the most likely engagement distance is within 3 - 12 yards.

Looking forward to reading what others post.

I like your parameters, with the addition of team based deployment for LE. I don't think the shotgun is the best option for LE unless you're on a team, as the situations can change too quickly which gets you outside of the stated parameters pretty quick.

Real world examples: 1) two man patrol car, one rifle/one shotgun, 2) warrant team, 3) vehicle checkpoint security for sensitive areas/major events, one dude manning a shotgun with hardened penetrators.

In the capacity of private citizens is a little different, since the intended use is likely to remain inside said parameters. The guide carrying a shotgun for bear protection in Alaska isn't likely to have the situation change to fighting off multiple dudes in body armor, and the law-abiding homeowner not involved in gangs who is pulling out his shotgun in response to a home invasion isn't likely to face 3+ dudes in armor and then go on a chase through the neighborhood afterwards. You're not likely to transition from shooting someone in home defense to clearing an active shooter scene in a school with the chance of low probability shots, shooting in a crowded venue, and down long hallways exceeding the effective range of a shotgun, either.

[chances R]

IMO, shotguns are generally perfect for close quarters/ home defense. Also, unlike handguns, one serving per bad guy will generally suffice. So a shotgun that holds 5-6 rounds should be plenty and especially if reloads are readily attached to shotgun.

[ssb]

I am no professional, but I have hung out with a few professional shotgunners.

In the private citizen context I believe the gun is best used as a barricade weapon. By barricade weapon, I mean my intended use is to move to a position of advantage, point the gun at the door, and wait my turn (or better yet, wait for them to decide there are better places to be). I choose a shotgun for that role because it’s about as close to a ballistic off switch as we have available. I have a lot of confidence in the ballistics of well-placed 00 buckshot at 5 yards.

Because I use a semi-auto, the only manipulation I have to do is to run the charging handle once I retrieve the gun - and I practice grabbing the gun and running the charging handle every time the gun gets taken out and shot. Knowing what I now know, I would want to see a regular training routine for a person who chooses to use a pump action gun. I do not believe that pump action shotguns are as user-friendly as they’re made out to be, even if most people intuitively understand how to fire them.

If my home defense plan required serious movement on my part, my choice would likely be a pistol due to my own proficiency and training limitations (the extremely little formal training I have for moving inside a structure involved a pistol). Additionally, the fact that a pistol can reasonably be used one handed is a major selling point to me for that role.

[Rex G]

I like what Dan Lehr and TGS said.

I worked for a big-city PD, for 33+ years, mostly night-shift patrol, and was qual’ed with personally-owned shotguns just about the entire time.

[RevolverRob]

When is a shotgun the best option for modern LE?

Anytime you have a non-hostage holding, armed, suspect inside of 15y (assuming 00 buck).

When is a shotgun the best option for a civilian?

Anytime you have a non-hostage holding, armed, suspect, inside of 15y (assuming 00 buck).

___

Swap to slugs and the ranges extend and hostage shots can be made, but I wouldn't extend the window for the average person running slugs to be out past about 35y.

[Paul Blackburn]

As much interest as there was in the 1301 I thought there would be more replies...

Peoples interests seem to be more about modifications to the hardware than actual use case deployment of the hardware...

[TGS]

As much interest as there was in the 1301 I thought there would be more replies...

Peoples interests seem to be more about modifications to the hardware than actual use case deployment of the hardware...

I don't see that. Rather, it's a short discussion because there seems to be a general consensus on the capabilities and limitations of the blunderbuss, and in what situations it's most effective.

[WobblyPossum]

As much interest as there was in the 1301 I thought there would be more replies...

Peoples interests seem to be more about modifications to the hardware than actual use case deployment of the hardware...


I don't see that. Rather, it's a short discussion because there seems to be a general consensus on the capabilities and limitations of the blunderbuss, and in what situations it's most effective.

Pretty much this. There isn’t a scientific formula for when one type of firearm is better than another, it’s more of a list of needs and a list of capabilities that you have to compare. Shotguns rock at gunfights against unarmored opponents at typical pistol distances with buckshot and at shutting down vehicles with hardened/deep penetrator slugs. They’re also pretty good at ballistically breaching locked doors. Killing vehicles isn’t really something the typical private citizen needs to be worried about but, depending on where you live, you can replace that with killing large, dangerous animals. Same with with ballistic breaching. Most bad guys aren’t wearing body armor but it’s not unheard of. A shotgun would probably serve the typical private citizen well. An LEO might be better served with a different weapon such as a rifle because some situations an LEO might find themselves in might require things that shotguns aren’t good at. I wouldn’t want to respond to an active shooter at a school or commercial property with a shotgun if a rifle is available due to the increased possibility of a suspect wearing body armor, the extended distances that might be present and the number of victims running around.

[SoCalDep]

Man... I'm gonna be unpolular.

I've carried a shotgun in harms way a bit. I've seen the psychological effect and I have a nostalgic respect and love for the platform.

That said, it is not the best at anything... almost.

Against people:

Up close at 3 to 15 yards I still want a semi-auto rifle. A shotgun with good ammo is (up close) basically rifle level accuracy. Capacity is limited. Recoil is more. Follow up shots are inhibited. As distance increases the shotgun is 8-9 pellets that are basically very poorly ballistic .32 to 9mm at handgun velocities. At the same time they penetrate further in intermediate barriers (ie: walls) and offer additional chances (projectiles) to hit things unintended. If they do hit the target they can be very effective... and not. Jim Cirillo talks about this in his books and there are numerous stories to back it up. The shotgun isn't the 100% stopper that many would have one believe.

Rifle rounds are devastating. Not only that, to my knowledge we've never had a torso shot on my department that has exited the body with a .223. It penetrates intermediate barriers such as drywall like a handgun, but with the right round will punch right through a vehicle. This is why some very well respected tactical teams have gone away from the 12ga to the .223 with good ammo. The other thing is that argument about versatility with the shotgun. The complicated select slug process is simplified with a rifle... new mag in... rack the bolt.

For law enforcement I strongly believe that the shotgun has hit its apex and is fading, but it isn't dead. It is becoming a niche weapon for the few things it truly is "the best" at... and to me it is two things:

1. The people who have to use it.

If politics don't allow a militaristic rifle, or one hasn't been able to be rifle certified to carry one for their work but they have access to a shotgun... well... that's a great tool. Maximize it by zeroing the specific shotgun to the specific ammo (buck and slugs) used and get good so the trifecta of gun/ammo/user is a known commodity.

2. Animals.

Zanezville. If you aren't familiar with the Zanezville incident you should be. In that case I'd very much rather have a 12ga with Federal Deep Penetrators than any of those AR rifles. This is the single biggest reason I believe the shotgun still has serious relevance in law enforcement. It's not just that incident either... one can look at lots of incidents involving animals in different jurisdictions to see where having access to animal-specific ammunition is beneficial.

One might argue breaching, but most cops aren't trained in it, won't use it for that, and so I disregard it a bit... though it's certainly a valid choice for those who are trained in it.

For civilians as opposed to law enforcement, I would add the advantage that it's less likely to destroy eardrums in houses, and while manually-operated shotguns are harder to learn effectively (I've trained a decent number of people to use one) they are more forgiving of a lack of maintenence. The drawbacks still apply.

[Caballoflaco]

SoCalDep speaking of big animals and shotguns, two tigers escaped a hillbilly zoo in Georgia after a tornado damaged their enclosure on Sunday. Haven’t heard if they’ve been found yet.

So yeah, if you’re a civilian living nearby a zoo or “animal rescue preserve” a shotty would be a nice addition to the armoury.

[SoCalDep]

SoCalDep speaking of big animals and shotguns, two tigers escaped a hillbilly zoo in Georgia after a tornado damaged their enclosure on Sunday. Haven’t heard if they’ve been found yet.

So yeah, if you’re a civilian living nearby a zoo or “animal rescue preserve” a shotty would be a nice addition to the armoury.

Indeed! Even with my LE career coming to an end later this year I just mounted a Trijicon RMR to my Mossberg 590A1 and I'm trying to figure out the best option for a bright WML for the Magpul forend. There is still a use for the shotgun, but I think it's important to keep things in perspective.

I love the department Ithaca 37 I was fortunate enough to purchase. My late dad's old hunting Remington 870 Wingmaster has been turned into the only firearm I've ever "named"... I call her Ugly Betty. It's got parts and pieces from a bunch of different guns but it's awesome and a formidable shotgun. Then there's the Winchester 1300Y that Dad got me for my 12th birthday. I don't hunt anymore so the barrel has been cut to 18" and with 20ga buckshot it's a fun and easy shooting shotgun.

I have several more, but those four are my favorites.

[Navin Johnson]

so.....how might 10 round rules effect the decision rifle vs shotgun?

[SoCalDep]

so.....how might 10 round rules effect the decision rifle vs shotgun?

Having lived in CA my whole life I’d say it wouldn’t. There are still too many situational requirements for a shotgun to be effective and not a liability, and I still think a rifle is a more effective tool.

Of course there are individual requirements that could change things for anyone… ear damage from the rifle, access, legality, public and even family perception… the likelihood of an animal attack vs people (such as in rural locals).

It’s not that the shotgun isn’t a good and effective tool - it’s that I believe in taking it for what it is and not trying to create specific circumstances where it can fit my personal need for it to be “the best”.

[cpd2110]

I would agree with SoCal, I think the shotgun in LE is on the way out; more regulated to less lethal bean bag deployment, breaching and at times some very specific work doing vehicle takedowns. When I started in LE 27+ years ago the shotgun was the only option. I deployed it often during felony stops and other events as it had a very good ability to chill people out quickly. One area I worked had gang activity, we ran two shotguns per car in a 4-man unit. Shotguns and K9's were the only thing that would change the tide on several near riots and other events where a crowd needed dispersed.

As an instructor, I have seen small statured male and female officers almost giddy to give up the shotgun. For them it was a boat anchor, hard kicking and complicated. They would not deploy it even if there was a need. When we transitioned everyone to rifles those same officers became regulars at our open range. They enjoyed shooting the AR and scores were good and just as important the competence and confidence increased. I also think for LE the threat changed. More bad guys run rifles/AR pistols now and the ability to match that firepower but also have standoff distance with a rifle cannot be overstated. Almost all of our OIS have been with rifles in the last 10 years. Nearly all have had a distance aspect where the shotgun would have been the wrong choice if that were the only long weapon we had.

For home defense I think you have to look at the reality of your situation. I live in Indiana in a nice area, 4 other cops live on my street, local pd response is quick. So a shotgun might not be a bad defense weapon as I don't anticipate multiple suspects. If I were in a city area where LE is going through some changes, response is from a parking lot, and the threat might be better armed, I would not pick a shotgun. I also think you have to look at if you will have help at home, such as a spouse. Can they use a pistol, rifle or shotgun easiest? That will be different person to person. In my home, my wife is most comfortable with her pistol. Rifle or shotgun for her is not an option.

I still think shotguns have a place but for us in our environment it is limited and very situationally based.

[GearFondler]

As much interest as there was in the 1301 I thought there would be more replies...

Peoples interests seem to be more about modifications to the hardware than actual use case deployment of the hardware...
Your post was titled "Question for the Professional Shotgunners"...

I would hazzard that many of us have opinions but don't consider ourselves "professional shotgunners" so we chose not to respond out of respect for our lanes.

[Dov]

In terms of self protection, when is a modern shotgun the best option for civilian/LE and why?

I will note that several Officer survival instructors and others have mentioned in context of (mainly handgun) gunfight distance favors the trained person.

A rifle/carbine will magnify that range advantage IMHO.

Also worth noting is age/health issues can make shotgun more difficult to impossible to use, I've been fan of shotgun with slugs my entire adult life. But because of health issues I can't really practice with them anymore so the essentially zero recoil of 5.56, 357 mag, or30-30 carbines are really appealing.

I also have family member that has eye issue now with one eye that AFAIK precludes anything like shotgun recoil, so carbine makes more sense for them.

I'd still prefer shotgun with Fosters or Brenneke slugs depending on anticipated situation to pretty much any rifle or carbine but my body doesn't.

[L-2]

I refrained from commenting or answering as I don't quite understand the OP's question.
Perhaps the question is too broad or vague to me.

Some terms which may need more definitions or examples:

-professional shotgunners (who is or who isn't?)
-self-defense (from what?)
-best option (vs. what other options?)
-modern shotgun (what's a modern shotgun vs. not-a-modern-shotgun?)
************
or for liberals:

All guns are bad.
Nobody needs a gun or a shotgun.
Violence is never the answer.
Negotiation or discussion is best.
************
A shotgun may be the best option if this is the firearm of choice or the only firearm available, and if lethal force is justified. Ammo choice or selection may also be of consideration depending on what's available (e.g. birdshot, buckshot, slugs).

Consideration as to what the "threat" is. Might I be shooting in self-defense of a Hamas rocket; bad guys in a VW Beetle; a homicidal naked guy armed with a knife; two homicidal attackers 7+ yards away (with no good guys behind them) who are armed with some type of weapons, even if just their hands and feet and I've got no way to escape?

A shotgun with 15 rounds on-board might be the best option vs. a 5-shot .22LR or .22Mag J-frame; or an AR15 but with only 1-round of ammo.

[Borderland]

Inside of 25 yards it's probably optimal. Beyond that I guess you can say Hail Mary and see what happens.

[jnc36rcpd]

It depends. To some extent, it depends on things you can know and possibly influence or control. This includes the patterning of a particular shotgun, ammunition, and sighting, your skill with the shotgun, the ability to deploy the shotgun in a timely manner for the circumstances, and possibly the environment you'll be in.

On the other hand, while you can anticipate, you can't know how many offenders you'll confront. Unless you're in a building, you can only hope the bad guys are at a distance you anticipate. If the fight starts in your home or business, it may well move outdoors. You don't know how motivated your threats will be or if they are wearing armor.

I have to agree with SoCalDep that a rifle is a better choice than the shotgun. Unless political or legal issues prevent rifle deployment, it is the better choice in both law enforcement and CCW circumstances.

I carried a shotgun for pretty much all the time I worked for a municipality. The rather goofy rifle/shotgun roof rack was not forgiving of my rifle configuration so that ended up in the trunk. The roof rack held the shotgun only. I kept the shotgun loaded with Federal Flite Control buck and the side saddle with one buckshot (to load in the magazine once I chambered a round), The rest of the side saddle was slugs.

My thinking was .that if I needed a long gun right freaking now as I bailed oit, the suspect would be at close range or in a vehicle. I debated going slugs only department-wide, but left officers the choice.

Given time and opportunity, I'd prefer the rifle. When I did deploy with the 870, I usually kept the thing with me rather than swap out long guns. I never felt outgunned with the shotgun when I deployed it, but it has significant issues that need to be considered.

[mmc45414]

If politics don't allow a militaristic rifle
I also think as more and more civilian dirtbags go on rampages with them I would rather not be in a situation where a civilian DGU involved a rifle unless I really needed a rifle to deal with the situation. I would probably be fine in my specific jurisdiction, but just another thing for people that want to be outraged to be outraged by.


For civilians as opposed to law enforcement, I would add the advantage that it's less likely to destroy eardrums in houses
Short rifles are just nasty indoors, after only a time or two being at an indoor range shooting with plugs and muffs (what I typically do indoors) while people are shooting unsupressed ARs I sure wouldn't want to do it.


2. Animals.

Zanezville. If you aren't familiar with the Zanezville incident you should be. In that case I'd very much rather have a 12ga with Federal Deep Penetrators than any of those AR rifles. This is the single biggest reason I believe the shotgun still has serious relevance in law enforcement. It's not just that incident either... one can look at lots of incidents involving animals in different jurisdictions to see where having access to animal-specific ammunition is beneficial.
I remember some of the guys I think ended up killing a tiger with Glock 22s, and I sure bet they wished they had my 391 with the long mag tube on it! :cool: