Practice Drawing to low ready as a deterrent?!

[DacoRoman]

https://youtu.be/TW5QccKNVbc
https://youtu.be/TW5QccKNVbc

I am potentially seeing lots of problems in this line of reasoning, for what essentially sounds like a ‘brandishing’ scenario in order to issue a “warning” or to use the display of the gun as a deterrent, in a situation that doesn’t clearly meet justified use of deadly force criteria.

I’m very curious about what y’all think about this. Especially Sir Massad Ayoob!

[revchuck38]

Darryl Bolke teaches drawing to a "hard low ready" with a firm verbal command ("Stop!") when the bad guy is approaching you and has indicated he means and intent to do you harm and he won't let you disengage. You've already made the decision to shoot and can verbalize it. You draw to a hard low ready, not covering the bad guy with your muzzle but with it in his direction (in my case, right in front of his feet). It gives him an opportunity to disengage and avoid getting shot. It's not brandishing because you've already made the "I'll shoot if I have to" decision. If you do need to shoot, you've already established a good firing grip and just need to raise the gun to eye level and fire.

The video above looks like the guy just needed to put some content up.

[Tom Givens]

What Darryl said.

Drawing to a hard ready can often abort the need to shoot. No guarantee, but a lot of the time. If you have to shoot, you are in a good position to do so. Things can change in the amount of time it takes to draw. Training to always shoot when you draw can have disastrous results.

[Mas]

What Tom said.

[BobM]

I incorporated drawing to ready into almost every departmental training session probably sometime after I started training with Tom and reading DBs thoughts on it. It’s also the first “stage “ of a dry practice routine I found in a Rangemaster newsletter several years back

[DacoRoman]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses!

Doesn’t it come down more to scenario based training/problem solving at that point, where one is confronted with different types of deadly force scenarios and also with ‘no shoot’, and even with ‘no draw/escape/combatives/etc.’ scenarios, especially for non LEO’s?
As opposed to merely suggesting, as the video does, that one should practice a draw to the low ready/aimed ready in order to give the attacker a chance to stand down - completely outside the context of a discussion regarding legal justified use of deadly force and when is it even appropriate to draw a deadly weapon on someone to begin with?

Now of course, I can certainly see scenarios where drawing the gun and NOT wanting/needing to shoot can occur. Just to use one example: where an attacker has the Intent (e.g., he threatens to kill you), and Means (e.g., he’s got a knife/deadly contact weapon) to kill or maim, BUT doesn’t have the Opportunity yet (e.g., he’s NOT YET within a dangerous range to attack), and the would be victim cannot Preclude (e.g. evade and escape) themselves from the situation.
I suppose the imminency of the threat would dictate whether a ’low ready’ or 'aimed ready (finger off the trigger), is adopted at that point.

[jnc36rcpd]

Law enforcement and security personnel are certainly going to be presenting pistols without firing. While not as common for civilian self-defenders, it certainly does happen. Skill at draw to low ready may well prevent a shooting that might occur if the bad guy believes he has the drop on you. It may also reduce the risk of an unintentional shooting or prosecution for brandishing if the perceived threat does not need to be shot. This is certainly a skill set that LEO's and self-defenders should develop.

[breakingtime91]

A hard low ready with a carbine kept me from shooting quite a few people.. I still draw to the low ready during training because of that. I will say a low ready with the willingness to shoot someone is a lot different then a panicked low ready. I've seen both.

[DacoRoman]

Law enforcement and security personnel are certainly going to be presenting pistols without firing. While not as common for civilian self-defenders, it certainly does happen. Skill at draw to low ready may well prevent a shooting that might occur if the bad guy believes he has the drop on you. It may also reduce the risk of an unintentional shooting or prosecution for brandishing if the perceived threat does not need to be shot. This is certainly a skill set that LEO's and self-defenders should develop.


A hard low ready with a carbine kept me from shooting quite a few people.. I still draw to the low ready during training because of that. I will say a low ready with the willingness to shoot someone is a lot different then a panicked low ready. I've seen both.

Good points.

For law enforcement drawing to low ready seems like a crucial tactic for sure.

For a civilian the application, like alluded to above, is a lot more narrow, and appropriate only in certain circumstances.
I would hope that non LEOs understand that drawing to deter behavior that does not constitute a clear threat of deadly force is inappropriate, and I would also hope that someone doesn’t fall behind the reaction curve because they draw to a ready position when in fact they should be immediately engaging a deadly threat.

[jnc36rcpd]

Clearly, there are times one needs to whip it out and shoot it out, both for LEO's and self-defenders. LEO and private training needs to address both present-and-fire as well as draw to low ready.

[Caballoflaco]

This is a good discussion and as an everyday earth-people I practice draw to fire, draw to low ready and discreet draws.

Also, that dude has 170 subscribers and the video has 32 views (most probably from this thread), I don’t think you have to worry too much about him influencing too many people.

[CraigS]

Yes this is a great discussion. I have to admit I have never really thought about this. Maybe in my mind the fear of 'brandishing' has been overriding what now seems could be a useful skill. Next time at the range will be different. Thanks guys.

[JCN]

This is one of the things I like about IDPA and USPSA, the decision to draw is often separate from the decision to shoot. Usually at the buzzer, you draw and then move to someplace else to expose a target. Sometimes it is a draw to a load or delay the draw until getting into better position. But the initiation to draw is not always coupled to an immediate decision to shoot unlike some or most simple square range drills.

[Clusterfrack]

I like practicing the following:
1) Draw to ready (high, low, thumb-pec index)
2) Draw and shoot
3) Draw, start to press the trigger, and abort the shot

Credit: Mr_White

[JHC]

For a civilian the application, like alluded to above, is a lot more narrow, and appropriate only in certain circumstances.
I would hope that non LEOs understand that drawing to deter behavior that does not constitute a clear threat of deadly force is inappropriate, and I would also hope that someone doesn’t fall behind the reaction curve because they draw to a ready position when in fact they should be immediately engaging a deadly threat.

Or drawing too early and then possibly needing solutions that don't include a pistol. And we don't speed re-holster blind anymore. ;)

There's a lot that can go wrong here.

I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.

Fairly straightforward to train as we already train from the holster so much.

[JCN]

I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.

Fairly straightforward to train as we already train from the holster so much.

That’s one of the reasons why I like pocket revolver so much.
Can get a full grip on the gun without any inherent legal repercussions.

[JHC]

That’s one of the reasons why I like pocket revolver so much.
Can get a full grip on the gun without any inherent legal repercussions.

Related if somewhat unrelated I just got one of these from Demonstrated Concepts aka dcon training, the cheekweld trainer.

https://demonstratedconcepts.com/product/the-hoodlum-dcon-hoodie/

Very nice lightweight hoody with the center pocket opened up. Virtually a pocket carry from the AIWB holster. I'm diggin' it.

[JohnO]

Chuck Taylor's (RIP) mantra, "Draw to the Ready, Up, Look, Press!"

Therefore incorporated into every draw stroke. Just a matter of halting the process at the Ready position.

[DacoRoman]

Clearly, there are times one needs to whip it out and shoot it out, both for LEO's and self-defenders. LEO and private training needs to address both present-and-fire as well as draw to low ready.

Yes, totally. And it was the lack of that type of important context that got my jeans in a knot regarding that video.

To me the right course of action in the ‘draw and be ready to draw and deliver’ spectrum is more about having to do with an understanding of how to mentally and tactically manage different scenarios, within the constraints of legal use of force and proper use of force escalation, than having to do with some technical ‘training rep’ that you can practice at the range; that may in fact give people the idea that they ought to practice getting their smoke wagon out as a method to “deter” when it may be totally inappropriate to do so, and in fact illegal.

[DacoRoman]

This is a good discussion and as an everyday earth-people I practice draw to fire, draw to low ready and discreet draws.

Also, that dude has 170 subscribers and the video has 32 views (most probably from this thread), I don’t think you have to worry too much about him influencing too many people.

You are right.

And I must tell you, the backstory is that a friend sent me that video and wanted to know my opinion about it, and my opinion regarding the practice of practicing drawing to a low ready, “in case you don’t have to shoot someone.”

I inferred some potential problems with the concept and content, as explained in my prior posts, and I thought …” I wonder what the squared away dudes on P-F would have to say about this topic, which seems pretty darn important to address correctly.”
So here we are :D

[RJ]

...legal use of force and proper use of force escalation, than having to do with some technical ‘training rep’ that you can practice at the range...

Why can't you do both?

Or are you saying one precludes the other? Or maybe I'm just confused (which is not hard to do. :cool:)

[DacoRoman]

Or drawing too early and then possibly needing solutions that don't include a pistol. And we don't speed re-holster blind anymore. ;)

There's a lot that can go wrong here.

I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.

Fairly straightforward to train as we already train from the holster so much.

Yes exactly.

I’m so glad for your input here…because that was my first initial thought as well. Especially as a civilian, if you aren’t sure it’s a deadly force scenario why are you whipping your smoker out to begin with? And if it’s a gray area, why not just get a good master grip on the holstered gun and retreat and escape (if possible).

Hopefully, if that whole OODA loop business is going well, I’ll be out of the engagement area long before I even have to tickle my cover garment.

Having said this I totally get that there are certain scenarios where having the gun out early and at the ready is the best decision to make tactically.

From a training perspective, the practice to draw to a low ready or other index in the face of a potential perp, seems to me, should be mainly practiced during scenario type training. I’m not sure that training to draw to a ready index sans a specific scenario does much.

[DacoRoman]

Chuck Taylor's (RIP) mantra, "Draw to the Ready, Up, Look, Press!"

Therefore incorporated into every draw stroke. Just a matter of halting the process at the Ready position.

Did he teach a compressed [high] ready?

[DacoRoman]

Why can't you do both?

Or are you saying one precludes the other? Or maybe I'm just confused (which is not hard to do. :cool:)

You can do both most certainly…but I’m just saying that practicing according to certain contextual principles, like understanding the ‘when and why’ not just the ‘how’, is super important, if that makes sense.

[vcdgrips]

JHC says:

“I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.”

I confess I have not drilled that cold each way to get an accurate baseline to compare.

My thoughts without having done so are:
A. Can you really as born out on a timer?
B. Can most people really….?
C. At a certain distance does that change for you and/or most folks?
D. Does the accuracy change in the same time constrains and/or at a certain distance?

From the admitted extrapolation POV only-the farthest distance I have repeatedly drilled the low ready is 15 yrds as that is a component to an agency qualification I often shoot. I cannot help be sense/feel/extrapolate that I would be faster from the low ready (muzzle pointed downward near the feet of the target) than my hand on the gun but still in the holster. The gun is simply moving less distance before I can get an acceptable sight picture for the accuracy standard at hand.

Thoughts?

[JohnO]

Did he teach a compressed [high] ready?

No. Chuck had one Ready position and that was what everyone would call Low Ready. Chuck didn't care for a Ready position where the muzzle was covering the target. He viewed that as an accident waiting to happen.

Chuck taught that the distance to the target determined the Ready position. With a target at 3 meters the Ready was held lower than a target at 15 meters.

Chuck's Ready position included a full firing grip and stance. The Up in the "Draw to the Ready, Up, Look, Press" was a pivot at the shoulder joint to raise the gun onto the target.

Everything above was Chuck's way of teaching flat range classes from beginner to skilled shooters. Chuck also taught tactical applications classes where ready positions and draw techniques were modified based on the situation. e.g. If you are facing and against a car you are not going to draw to the typical 45 degree Ready position. Chuck would say the scenario would dictate your draw stroke, "Solve the problem."

[breakingtime91]

JHC says:

“I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.”

I confess I have not drilled that cold each way to get an accurate baseline to compare.

My thoughts without having done so are:
A. Can you really as born out on a timer?
B. Can most people really….?
C. At a certain distance does that change for you and/or most folks?
D. Does the accuracy change in the same time constrains and/or at a certain distance?

From the admitted extrapolation POV only-the farthest distance I have repeatedly drilled the low ready is 15 yrds as that is a component to an agency qualification I often shoot. I cannot help be sense/feel/extrapolate that I would be faster from the low ready (muzzle pointed downward near the feet of the target) than my hand on the gun but still in the holster. The gun is simply moving less distance before I can get an acceptable sight picture for the accuracy standard at hand.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure, it would be interesting to do. I think low ready for me is somewhere I get to when I can justify that I may need to shoot. I would never do a low ready unless I felt I was under threat of bodily harm or death, or my dependents are. It's my last step before shooting somebody, if that doesn't deter someone who hasn't presented the "I need to shoot this person or I'll be dead right this second" nothing probably would. I have one example that I think a hard low ready with a carbine kept me from shooting a really angry guy. Back in 2012 some guys burned a religious book in Afghanistan, leading to some people getting really angry. They approached the FOB we were at and we got sent (there were very few of us on the FOB) to be QRF for the 2 Marines on post. On approach there was one gentleman leading the mob and he had some kind of blunt instrument made of wood. Several attempts to get them to stop didn't work, including a pen flare. At that point we still had our carbines slung in a casual manner and I decided that it was I either show I was willing to be violent or it would escalate into us killing him and more of the mob. I took a aggressive shooting stance with a hard low ready and told our terp to let him know if he took five more steps I was killing him first. That stopped the movement of the mob. The rifles didn't mean shit to them, me showing I was willing to kill him did. That is what I reserve a hard low ready for, when I can articulate why I used it, to try to avoid killing someone.

[Clusterfrack]

One of the most tense encounters I've had involved a concealed master grip instead of drawing to ready. While the situation resolved peacefully, a LEO friend commented that given the disparity in numbers, he would have drawn.


A couple of years ago ... three carloads of tweakers arrived at my family's backcountry picnic site and blocked our vehicle while they searched for their lost "stuff". I spent a few very tense minutes with my hand under my jacket telling them to leave...

[Tom Givens]

I'm not sure, it would be interesting to do. I think low ready for me is somewhere I get to when I can justify that I may need to shoot. I would never do a low ready unless I felt I was under threat of bodily harm or death, or my dependents are. It's my last step before shooting somebody, if that doesn't deter someone who hasn't presented the "I need to shoot this person or I'll be dead right this second" nothing probably would. I have one example that I think a hard low ready with a carbine kept me from shooting a really angry guy. Back in 2012 some guys burned a religious book in Afghanistan, leading to some people getting really angry. They approached the FOB we were at and we got sent (there were very few of us on the FOB) to be QRF for the 2 Marines on post. On approach there was one gentleman leading the mob and he had some kind of blunt instrument made of wood. Several attempts to get them to stop didn't work, including a pen flare. At that point we still had our carbines slung in a casual manner and I decided that it was I either show I was willing to be violent or it would escalate into us killing him and more of the mob. I took a aggressive shooting stance with a hard low ready and told our terp to let him know if he took five more steps I was killing him first. That stopped the movement of the mob. The rifles didn't mean shit to them, me showing I was willing to kill him did. That is what I reserve a hard low ready for, when I can articulate why I used it, to try to avoid killing someone.

We have a winner. That is an excellent example of using a presentation to Ready to avoid having to shoot.

[breakingtime91]

We have a winner. That is an excellent example of using a presentation to Ready to avoid having to shoot.

Means a lot coming from your sir, thank you.

[WobblyPossum]

JHC says:

“I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.”

I confess I have not drilled that cold each way to get an accurate baseline to compare.

My thoughts without having done so are:
A. Can you really as born out on a timer?
B. Can most people really….?
C. At a certain distance does that change for you and/or most folks?
D. Does the accuracy change in the same time constrains and/or at a certain distance?

From the admitted extrapolation POV only-the farthest distance I have repeatedly drilled the low ready is 15 yrds as that is a component to an agency qualification I often shoot. I cannot help be sense/feel/extrapolate that I would be faster from the low ready (muzzle pointed downward near the feet of the target) than my hand on the gun but still in the holster. The gun is simply moving less distance before I can get an acceptable sight picture for the accuracy standard at hand.

Thoughts?

My thinking is the same as yours but I haven’t tested hand-on-holstered-pistol on a timer yet. I know that at closer distances (7y and in) I can generally get a shot from a low ready on a larger target (8.5”x11” paper) in about 0.6s. If I’ve been shooting and dry practicing often leading up to it, I can get it done around 0.5s. I can’t imagine hand-on-holstered-pistol reaching those speeds. From low ready you already have a complete two handed grip established and your arms at the appropriate level of extension. All you have to do is bring the sights up to your eye line and press the trigger. From hand-on-holstered-pistol you have to remove the gun from the holster, orient the muzzle towards the threat, acquire a two handed grip, extend the gun out from your torso area, bring the sights to your eye line, and press the trigger. That’s a lot of steps compared to shooting from a low ready. You can save some time by doing a couple of those steps together (remove the gun from the holster while orienting the muzzle towards the threat; and extend the gun out from your torso area while bringing the sights to your eye and taking the slack out of the trigger) but the same is true of shooting from the low ready (bring the sights up to your eye line while taking the slack out of the trigger). I’ll try it dry first out of curiosity. I might try it live at some point if I can remember.

ETA: I was discussing two handed shooting to keep it apples to apples, but I can see reaching low ready speeds from hand-on-holstered-pistol if you’re close enough to make SHO shots work based on your skill level. Ripping the gun out of the holster and driving it directly to the threat could get some smoking fast times done. Also, we’re talking about differences likely measured in tenths of a second, so do they matter in the real world? Quite possibly not. I think once you’re talking about sub-second time frames, they’re all close enough to not make much of a difference. If I try to hit you in the chest from the low ready in 0.5s while you try to hit me in the chest from hand-on-holstered-pistol in 0.75s, the end result is that we both just got shot on the chest and it probably won’t matter that one bullet impacted a quarter second before the other.

[DacoRoman]

JHC says:

“I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.”

I confess I have not drilled that cold each way to get an accurate baseline to compare.

My thoughts without having done so are:
A. Can you really as born out on a timer?
B. Can most people really….?
C. At a certain distance does that change for you and/or most folks?
D. Does the accuracy change in the same time constrains and/or at a certain distance?

From the admitted extrapolation POV only-the farthest distance I have repeatedly drilled the low ready is 15 yrds as that is a component to an agency qualification I often shoot. I cannot help be sense/feel/extrapolate that I would be faster from the low ready (muzzle pointed downward near the feet of the target) than my hand on the gun but still in the holster. The gun is simply moving less distance before I can get an acceptable sight picture for the accuracy standard at hand.

Thoughts?

I've got some thoughts if you don't mind hearing them. First off, great questions. I won't tackle all of those, and I only answer as a civilian here, but there are a couple of intermingling concepts here that probably need to be disentangled.

Issue #1) Is it appropriate to draw to a ready position to begin with? Is an attack that warrants the use of deadly force imminent?

If it is not, drawing to a ready position is not legally supported for a civilian, full stop I think! Legal experts please correct me if I’m wrong.

If it is not, but there is some reasonable suspicion that there may possibly be, one can make the argument that getting a good grip and attempting to evade and escape, or even just evade and escape (if possible), is the correct move, NOT drawing to a ready position.

If the perp starts reaching for something suspicious in their waist band, for example, especially if they demonstrate Intent and Opportunity, but not yet the Means to warrant a response with deadly force, only then is drawing to a ready position justified, in my way of thinking.

If the attacker initiates an attack with deadly force quickly and without pause, in essence ambushing you, you’ll already be behind the reaction curve, and drawing to a ready position will just turn you into a corpse more quickly at that point. But I think that’s super obvious and we all agree on that. Hopefully that OODA loop thing was working for you and you won’t find yourself in this unfortunate position.

Again, for LEO’s I imagine that drawing to a ready position sooner rather than later is probably the best move in situations where enough suspicion is created by the person of interest that a justified use of deadly force is likely, or even just highly possible, I’m supposing.
And like people have already described, this type of deterrence may serve to in fact de-escalate the situation by deterring the initiation of any deadly plans by the person of interest, thereby being a great potential life saver.

And whereas hand on gun seems to me a better tactic for civilians to use in certain situations as already discussed, I’m not sure how applicable this tactic would be for LEO’s. I guess it depends on the level of concern that the officer would have, not to mention their level and type of training.

Issue #2) Practical Performance metrics between the various ready positions vs hand on gun

I think a draw from concealment of less than 1.5s with A zone hits at 7 yards is doable for most people that consistently train. I’m not sure what a typical LEO can do from a duty Level II/III holster, but I think that 1.5s or less is also doable. Using those numbers to extrapolate I’m guessing that a draw from a master grip would be around 0.8 - 1.0 second?

I’ve never timed it, or it has been so long I’ve forgotten, but I’m fairly certain that the time to an A zone hit for a well trained shooter from a low ready will be significantly faster..I’m guessing around 0.5s, or even less.
So yes I wouldn’t be surprised if for most people getting on target from the low ready is significantly faster than from master grip on gun.

But Performance Metrics and Appropriateness of Use are two different issues, and they are different again when comparing LEO’s and non LEO’s. I’m becoming more and more convinced as I’m thinking through this that for a non LEO, there will be a lot more instances when getting a good grip on the gun (and creating distance), is more appropriate than drawing to a ready position (even if one then still creates distance).

But ultimately the spectrum of responses, from hand on gun, to draw to first shot vs draw to a ready position, vs draw to gun aimed but finger along the frame, etc. etc. will all be dictated by the different scenarios in play. And I guess practicing for all of these scenarios is probably the best thing to do.

[DacoRoman]

No. Chuck had one Ready position and that was what everyone would call Low Ready. Chuck didn't care for a Ready position where the muzzle was covering the target. He viewed that as an accident waiting to happen.

Chuck taught that the distance to the target determined the Ready position. With a target at 3 meters the Ready was held lower than a target at 15 meters.

Chuck's Ready position included a full firing grip and stance. The Up in the "Draw to the Ready, Up, Look, Press" was a pivot at the shoulder joint to raise the gun onto the target.

Everything above was Chuck's way of teaching flat range classes from beginner to skilled shooters. Chuck also taught tactical applications classes where ready positions and draw techniques were modified based on the situation. e.g. If you are facing and against a car you are not going to draw to the typical 45 degree Ready position. Chuck would say the scenario would dictate your draw stroke, "Solve the problem."

Thanks for that explanation, very interesting.

[Utm]

Just my opinion, but this doesn't seem like something that needs to be practiced. For me at least, I don't see the value. Drawing and going to a low ready isn't a difficult task for most. I don't know that I would draw my firearm in a non LE setting where I was not going to use it. Lethal force as a deterrent is not something I want to do. Its either drawing because the decision has been made or not drawing at all in a non LE role.

[JCN]

That is what I reserve a hard low ready for, when I can articulate why I used it, to try to avoid killing someone.

Technical question regarding safeties.

In that situation, was the safety still on or off?

Would it change if you had a handgun with safety?

DASA?

Finger outside trigger guard?

Depends?

I can see a range of reasonable options.

[Hambo]

I like practicing the following:
1) Draw to ready (high, low, thumb-pec index)
2) Draw and shoot
3) Draw, start to press the trigger, and abort the shot

Credit: Mr_White

#3 is often overlooked. The situation can change before the trigger breaks,

[JHC]

JHC says:

“I've been advised a full firing grip of the pistol in the holster is a ready position that can deliver an aimed shot as fast as a low ready without the implications of standing there with a gun in your hand. Possibly brandishing depending on locale.”

I confess I have not drilled that cold each way to get an accurate baseline to compare.

My thoughts without having done so are:
A. Can you really as born out on a timer?
B. Can most people really….?
C. At a certain distance does that change for you and/or most folks?
D. Does the accuracy change in the same time constrains and/or at a certain distance?

From the admitted extrapolation POV only-the farthest distance I have repeatedly drilled the low ready is 15 yrds as that is a component to an agency qualification I often shoot. I cannot help be sense/feel/extrapolate that I would be faster from the low ready (muzzle pointed downward near the feet of the target) than my hand on the gun but still in the holster. The gun is simply moving less distance before I can get an acceptable sight picture for the accuracy standard at hand.

Thoughts?

The context from which this came was a friend (with a deep background of training and operational experience) training a class of a Federal agency (may have been an instructor course) that was similarly concerned about drawn guns, use of force continuum etc much like this thread's discussion. He offered this, demo'd it and they worked it, measured it and found any time penalty to be insignificant. FWIW. For my money it's worth the streamlining of the possibly challenging cognitive stuff I'll be dealing with in such an event.

Re the bolded part - that may be common in LE but that's very close to committing an assault in some jurisdictions if one has mis-calculated. I believe that to be accurate. How does one prove I wasn't muzzling the guy's knees for example. In my Fed example I believe they did not want their muzzle that close to "no-shoots" or "not yet shoots" being evaluated and receiving commands. So they may have been comparing it to a muzzle down just in front of their own feet. I'm not sure about that either way, but sorta think so.

Note, a carbine generally speaking is always exposed and in my hands in some manner. Not so with my concealed pistol.

In addition to what if's like the event evolves to not shooting but other problem solving, and I've got a drawn gun, there is the risk of appearing to be a threat to any responding LE or off duty LE or another civilian gun carrier. The latter is concerning me more and more. I'm confident most are not so switched on around this locale.

[MickAK]

#3 is often overlooked. The situation can change before the trigger breaks,

I like practicing this with a random timer/popup.

I also like practicing going for pepper spray and dropping it and going for the pistol on a random. The very act of reaching can cause people to draw.

I really like the DC hoodies JHC mentioned and I had some homemade ones prior to their availability but the truth is a lot of people that had certain upbringings are going to view reaching in a hoodie pocket as a prelude to a gun coming out. I think that has a part in the discussion as well.

[1slow]

With the hoodies with the pocket cut out: I worry about fouling the draw; threading the pistol through the hole and pocket, particularly with a service auto.

I also worry about learning yet another draw stroke.

I can see advantage to shooting through the pocket if very close if hand is already gripping 340 etc… in pocket.

[breakingtime91]

Technical question regarding safeties.

In that situation, was the safety still on or off?

Would it change if you had a handgun with safety?

DASA?

Finger outside trigger guard?

Depends?

I can see a range of reasonable options.

I keep safeties on and finger straight until I'm moving my sights to my eye. Safety goes off on the way up, as soon as off my sighting system safety is on

[JCN]

I can’t imagine hand-on-holstered-pistol reaching those speeds. From low ready you already have a complete two handed grip established and your arms at the appropriate level of extension. All you have to do is bring the sights up to your eye line and press the trigger. From hand-on-holstered-pistol you have to remove the gun from the holster, orient the muzzle towards the threat, acquire a two handed grip, extend the gun out from your torso area, bring the sights to your eye line, and press the trigger.

I am going to add just a pure technical counterpoint, not related to any tactical or application standpoint.

I think depending on how you typically draw and acquire the sights… and how heavy your gun is and how small you consider your target, hand on grip would be preferable speed and accuracy wise to low ready.

So let me define some terms and variables. Say somebody is 7 yards from me, and I only consider upper thoracic 6 inch circle as my target. Sweeping up through the legs and pelvis I am not considering as being on target.

Now also, assume that a typical draw uses a compressed high ready intermediate step to a press out… and at any point from the compressed high ready you can pick up your sights and break the shot because the muzzle and sights are already on target, even before full extension.

The problem I have with low ready is the muzzle sweeps up and I also have to stop the muzzle once it gets there. That takes time, adds angular momentum to the muzzle and I don’t get sights or muzzle on target until the very end of the lift.

Whereas with a draw, I go through a high compressed ready and the muzzle does not sweep or move off target through the whole extension. It is more stable, and I can pick up the sights earlier, leading to an earlier trigger break.

I’m on vacation, so a flashlight is the best I can do. Look at the flashlight as the muzzle of a gun.


https://youtu.be/WcmmxLRthjc

My normal draw brings muzzle to the target early so it does not wobble as I press out. I can pick up the sights early and the muzzle is also not wobbling so it’s easier to break difficult shots once I get there.

If you need some proof of concept, do it with a heavier gun or weight. If you use a two or 3 pound weight, which is similar to some of our competition guns, it’ll be clearer. In competition we do a lot of punch out presentations from single hand low.

I suspect this is what JHC friend was suggesting or demonstrating.

Of note, the smaller and more technical the target, the more I would prefer a hand on grip to a low ready because I don’t want to take the time to stop and steady the muzzle off a transition (in this case it’s a low to high transition instead of a side to side transition).

Just my $0.02 of some additional considerations without any comments on technical application or tactics.

[WobblyPossum]

Excellent post about the technical aspects JCN. I’ll play around with this dry later and see how close I can get the times between the start positions.

[JHC]

With the hoodies with the pocket cut out: I worry about fouling the draw; threading the pistol through the hole and pocket, particularly with a service auto.

I also worry about learning yet another draw stroke.

I can see advantage to shooting through the pocket if very close if hand is already gripping 340 etc… in pocket.

So far I'm seeing its blazing with a snubbie but sketchy with a G19 plus RDS. Haven't experimented with the 43 or 43X yet.

[JHC]

I really like the DC hoodies JHC mentioned and I had some homemade ones prior to their availability but the truth is a lot of people that had certain upbringings are going to view reaching in a hoodie pocket as a prelude to a gun coming out. I think that has a part in the discussion as well.

Valid point I'm sure and perhaps akin to putting one's hand in a pocket for the true pocket carried piece. Unless one is walking along or hanging out at the gas pump with the hand in the pocket or the hands in the hoodie. Heck is this on the deterent spectrum as well?

Once I was visually tracked then followed in New Orleans and me making eye contact then deliberately putting my hand into a sadly empty pocket seemed to trigger an about face. (shrug)

Clusterfrack

I've had a couple situations where I did the full grip holstered.

One was an aggressive panhandler that took issue with me declining the opportunity to contribute to his college fund and then pursuing me to my rear with fists balled up. This one was overtly gripped under concealment and that spun him around.

The other was an emotionally disturbed former employee alternately ranting and sobbing about an issue. That one I was bladed and looked like hand on my hip listening but it was under a sweatshirt with a full grip.

[BarneyCallahan]

Here’s a scenario that, I think, will apply to the subject matter of this tread. While it is a ‘what if,’ it could happen (and has). After reading, think about what you would do, or should do. Feel free to post your answer.

We’ll assume you (the person in the scenario) are an honorable person, legally (of course) carrying a concealed handgun (LEO or otherwise). You’re well trained and experienced in its use.

The scenario: You are the right front passenger in a car traveling down a four lane boulevard in the middle of the night in a big city. Traffic is light to non-existent. The car you’re in is in the #1 lane (next to the center line). There are dim streetlights and trees, creating shadows and an unreliable ability to visually discern details, such as a gun in somebody’s hand. Your driver, the only other person in the car, is not trained and is oblivious.

As you are approaching a red light you notice two men on the sidewalk to your right as you pass by them. As your driver brings the car to a stop at the red light, you realize that the two men, now behind you, have left the sidewalk and are walking briskly towards your car. As they walk, it is apparent that one of them is heading towards the driver’s side of your car while the other one is heading towards the passenger side, from the right rear.

In the moment, you can’t see their hands. It is happening too quickly for you to check for cross traffic and instruct your driver to run the red light NOW!

What would you do?

[DDTSGM]

Here’s a scenario that, I think, will apply to the subject matter of this tread. While it is a ‘what if,’ it could happen (and has). After reading, think about what you would do, or should do. Feel free to post your answer.

We’ll assume you (the person in the scenario) are an honorable person, legally (of course) carrying a concealed handgun (LEO or otherwise). You’re well trained and experienced in its use.

The scenario: You are the right front passenger in a car traveling down a four lane boulevard in the middle of the night in a big city. Traffic is light to non-existent. The car you’re in is in the #1 lane (next to the center line). There are dim streetlights and trees, creating shadows and an unreliable ability to visually discern details, such as a gun in somebody’s hand. Your driver, the only other person in the car, is not trained and is oblivious.

As you are approaching a red light you notice two men on the sidewalk to your right as you pass by them. As your driver brings the car to a stop at the red light, you realize that the two men, now behind you, have left the sidewalk and are walking briskly towards your car. As they walk, it is apparent that one of them is heading towards the driver’s side of your car while the other one is heading towards the passenger side, from the right rear.

In the moment, you can’t see their hands. It is happening too quickly for you to check for cross traffic and instruct your driver to run the red light NOW!

What would you do?

You've created an unwinnable situation. In this situation the first thing would be keep the car moving. But you aren't driving. Hard right rather than across traffic, reverse if no traffic approaching from the rear.

If they are too close for you to do the things you have listed, they are also too close for you to exit before they are upon you. Unless you already have your pistol drawn, you probably are going to be unable to draw before they are, again,upon you.

The last thing you want to do is be seated in an immobile vehicle with someone standing outside able to view your movements. But that is the situation you have described.

I don't see this as a draw to any kind of ready situation.

[JAD]

I keep safeties on and finger straight until I'm moving my sights to my eye. Safety goes off on the way up, as soon as off my sighting system safety is on

Yup, that’s how we’re supposed to manipulate both thumb safeties and decockers — on/off target, on/off safe/decocked.

bill jeans taught ‘draw to guard’ in my 250. I incorporate it at the range and in dry fire a lot. The main reason is that for me I practice drawing to the shot a lot, to build automaticity, to be fast. I think that’s a good idea and a good result, but the draw to guard reteaches that movement to have branching paths.

[breakingtime91]

I am going to add just a pure technical counterpoint, not related to any tactical or application standpoint.

I think depending on how you typically draw and acquire the sights… and how heavy your gun is and how small you consider your target, hand on grip would be preferable speed and accuracy wise to low ready.

So let me define some terms and variables. Say somebody is 7 yards from me, and I only consider upper thoracic 6 inch circle as my target. Sweeping up through the legs and pelvis I am not considering as being on target.

Now also, assume that a typical draw uses a compressed high ready intermediate step to a press out… and at any point from the compressed high ready you can pick up your sights and break the shot because the muzzle and sights are already on target, even before full extension.

The problem I have with low ready is the muzzle sweeps up and I also have to stop the muzzle once it gets there. That takes time, adds angular momentum to the muzzle and I don’t get sights or muzzle on target until the very end of the lift.

Whereas with a draw, I go through a high compressed ready and the muzzle does not sweep or move off target through the whole extension. It is more stable, and I can pick up the sights earlier, leading to an earlier trigger break.

I’m on vacation, so a flashlight is the best I can do. Look at the flashlight as the muzzle of a gun.


https://youtu.be/WcmmxLRthjc

My normal draw brings muzzle to the target early so it does not wobble as I press out. I can pick up the sights early and the muzzle is also not wobbling so it’s easier to break difficult shots once I get there.

If you need some proof of concept, do it with a heavier gun or weight. If you use a two or 3 pound weight, which is similar to some of our competition guns, it’ll be clearer. In competition we do a lot of punch out presentations from single hand low.

I suspect this is what JHC friend was suggesting or demonstrating.

Of note, the smaller and more technical the target, the more I would prefer a hand on grip to a low ready because I don’t want to take the time to stop and steady the muzzle off a transition (in this case it’s a low to high transition instead of a side to side transition).

Just my $0.02 of some additional considerations without any comments on technical application or tactics.


I don't think anyone is disrupting you can get a comparable hit from an established grip vs low ready. Low ready, I personally think, is there as a last resort deterent if the situation dictates. If I need to shoot someone, I'm just shooting them. If it's passed the flash light/pepper spray stage but I'm still trying not to shoot someone that is where a hard low ready and the willingness to kill someone comes in. But I also think "stitching someone up" as I present the gun works also. There are a lot of different ways to win a fight, mostly hitting them in upper a zone or the t-box in the head but starting to shoot someone in the pelvis as I move up to those zones probably doesn't hurt. Idk, we can argue this to death but attitude and willingness to be violent will avoid being violent, applying the violence will win it. I do want to go out and see which I can do faster. I think hand on gun while holstered has its place also, especially in a vehicle or at the front door of my house. Different situations.

[DacoRoman]

I'm not sure, it would be interesting to do. I think low ready for me is somewhere I get to when I can justify that I may need to shoot. I would never do a low ready unless I felt I was under threat of bodily harm or death, or my dependents are. It's my last step before shooting somebody, if that doesn't deter someone who hasn't presented the "I need to shoot this person or I'll be dead right this second" nothing probably would. I have one example that I think a hard low ready with a carbine kept me from shooting a really angry guy. Back in 2012 some guys burned a religious book in Afghanistan, leading to some people getting really angry. They approached the FOB we were at and we got sent (there were very few of us on the FOB) to be QRF for the 2 Marines on post. On approach there was one gentleman leading the mob and he had some kind of blunt instrument made of wood. Several attempts to get them to stop didn't work, including a pen flare. At that point we still had our carbines slung in a casual manner and I decided that it was I either show I was willing to be violent or it would escalate into us killing him and more of the mob. I took a aggressive shooting stance with a hard low ready and told our terp to let him know if he took five more steps I was killing him first. That stopped the movement of the mob. The rifles didn't mean shit to them, me showing I was willing to kill him did. That is what I reserve a hard low ready for, when I can articulate why I used it, to try to avoid killing someone.

God-bless, glad everything worked out.
I’m sold on the hard low ready for certain military and LE applications, and come think of it loss of rule of law, riots and looting type situations. For most civilian self defense scenarios not so much.

[DacoRoman]

I am going to add just a pure technical counterpoint, not related to any tactical or application standpoint.

I think depending on how you typically draw and acquire the sights… and how heavy your gun is and how small you consider your target, hand on grip would be preferable speed and accuracy wise to low ready.

So let me define some terms and variables. Say somebody is 7 yards from me, and I only consider upper thoracic 6 inch circle as my target. Sweeping up through the legs and pelvis I am not considering as being on target.

Now also, assume that a typical draw uses a compressed high ready intermediate step to a press out… and at any point from the compressed high ready you can pick up your sights and break the shot because the muzzle and sights are already on target, even before full extension.

The problem I have with low ready is the muzzle sweeps up and I also have to stop the muzzle once it gets there. That takes time, adds angular momentum to the muzzle and I don’t get sights or muzzle on target until the very end of the lift.

Whereas with a draw, I go through a high compressed ready and the muzzle does not sweep or move off target through the whole extension. It is more stable, and I can pick up the sights earlier, leading to an earlier trigger break.

I’m on vacation, so a flashlight is the best I can do. Look at the flashlight as the muzzle of a gun.


https://youtu.be/WcmmxLRthjc

My normal draw brings muzzle to the target early so it does not wobble as I press out. I can pick up the sights early and the muzzle is also not wobbling so it’s easier to break difficult shots once I get there.

If you need some proof of concept, do it with a heavier gun or weight. If you use a two or 3 pound weight, which is similar to some of our competition guns, it’ll be clearer. In competition we do a lot of punch out presentations from single hand low.

I suspect this is what JHC friend was suggesting or demonstrating.

Of note, the smaller and more technical the target, the more I would prefer a hand on grip to a low ready because I don’t want to take the time to stop and steady the muzzle off a transition (in this case it’s a low to high transition instead of a side to side transition).

Just my $0.02 of some additional considerations without any comments on technical application or tactics.

Interesting thoughts and demonstration. I’m hoping I can put the hand on grip to first shot vs from low ready to the test on a timer this weekend.

BTW Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. P-F comes through again.

[JohnO]

Here’s a scenario that, I think, will apply to the subject matter of this tread. While it is a ‘what if,’ it could happen (and has). After reading, think about what you would do, or should do. Feel free to post your answer.

We’ll assume you (the person in the scenario) are an honorable person, legally (of course) carrying a concealed handgun (LEO or otherwise). You’re well trained and experienced in its use.

The scenario: You are the right front passenger in a car traveling down a four lane boulevard in the middle of the night in a big city. Traffic is light to non-existent. The car you’re in is in the #1 lane (next to the center line). There are dim streetlights and trees, creating shadows and an unreliable ability to visually discern details, such as a gun in somebody’s hand. Your driver, the only other person in the car, is not trained and is oblivious.

As you are approaching a red light you notice two men on the sidewalk to your right as you pass by them. As your driver brings the car to a stop at the red light, you realize that the two men, now behind you, have left the sidewalk and are walking briskly towards your car. As they walk, it is apparent that one of them is heading towards the driver’s side of your car while the other one is heading towards the passenger side, from the right rear.

In the moment, you can’t see their hands. It is happening too quickly for you to check for cross traffic and instruct your driver to run the red light NOW!

What would you do?

Cars have wheels, use them!

Couple points:

A 4000 Lb projectile beats pistol bullets any day.

Never stop where you can’t maneuver out of a bad situation. Always see the rear tires touching the pavement on the car you are stopping behind. That’s the minimum room you need to escape.

Fighting from inside a vehicle is a fools errand. Your vision, mobility and situational awareness are all restricted. Vehicles are bullet magnets. Vehicles are not Cover. Even pistol bullets zip through most parts of a car.

[JCN]

Excellent post about the technical aspects JCN. I’ll play around with this dry later and see how close I can get the times between the start positions.


Interesting thoughts and demonstration. I’m hoping I can put the hand on grip to first shot vs from low ready to the test on a timer this weekend.

The one additional thing I would ask you both to keep your eyes on is the muzzle/sight stability when you get there. Basically, could you put two shots in the same fist size group once you get there without wobbling or pulling off target in over transition?

It’s not just the time that you are trying to make, it’s the muzzle stability. IMO as a pure technical drill, it wouldn’t just be the timing of a single shot on target, it would be the timing of a pair to be able to judge your stability once you got there.

So if going to play around with that dry and live, try it with a pair of shots.

I am still on vacation, but I did bring my strike clicker with me. If you listen with audio, you can hear the click of the trigger. Watch my hands at the click, there’s no bounce with the press out whereas there’s a little bounce as I’m trying to stop the transition from the low ready start.


https://youtu.be/F-ALGDx3IUE

Note that if your draw doesn’t have a horizontal press out at the end, you won’t get much of the benefit from this. For people who do a full extension rise up at the end of their draw or a fishing, casting wave from above, this won’t help (and the low ready will be superior).



But I also think "stitching someone up" as I present the gun works also. There are a lot of different ways to win a fight, mostly hitting them in upper a zone or the t-box in the head but starting to shoot someone in the pelvis as I move up to those zones probably doesn't hurt.

Agreed, and I wasn’t implying tactics just technical commenting. The analogy to shooting while zippering would be shooting before starting pressing out from a compressed high ready. I estimate that I could probably still get thoracic shots on target from compressed high ready during the same time that somebody would be shooting legs or pelvis in a zipper. Either way would work in reality. Philosophically I kind of like being muzzle on intended target early.

EDIT: thought a video might help explain the compressed analogy to zipper. Listen with audio to hear the “shots.”


https://youtu.be/p5Osgofk8rw

Would it change the calculus if there was a table or chair in between you and the target and zippering might not have the intended effect? Yes, no, maybe? Again, I am not a tactician and I don’t mean to imply anything to that regard. Just technical thoughts.

[jandbj]

Related if somewhat unrelated I just got one of these from Demonstrated Concepts aka dcon training, the cheekweld trainer.

https://demonstratedconcepts.com/product/the-hoodlum-dcon-hoodie/

Very nice lightweight hoody with the center pocket opened up. Virtually a pocket carry from the AIWB holster. I'm diggin' it.

Thanks for the reminder about these! Just placed an order for one.

[DacoRoman]

Cars have wheels, use them!

Couple points:

A 4000 Lb projectile beats pistol bullets any day.

Never stop where you can’t maneuver out of a bad situation. Always see the rear tires touching the pavement on the car you are stopping behind. That’s the minimum room you need to escape.

Fighting from inside a vehicle is a fools errand. Your vision, mobility and situational awareness are all restricted. Vehicles are bullet magnets. Vehicles are not Cover. Even pistol bullets zip through most parts of a car.

I’m just a regular dude with only one vehicle tactics class under his belt, but I fully and totally and utterly agree with this <thumbs up>.

[UNM1136]

I have not fully read all the responses...but most of them I did read had great points.

Since cars were brought up...

Which is easier....pinning the accelerator (or brake pedal) to the floor, or taking the decision to brake and accelerate at the best moment.? EVOC spends a lot of time teaching proper breaking, steering input and acceleration to get the desired results. Shifting vehicle weight, loading tire traction patches, etc. And a lot of students end up off the track until they learn to process information and respond at speed.

Therefore, what situations require the most training?

Draw to a shot can be vital. Draw to a low ready and assess can be just as vital. One of Paul Howe's books mentioned having a decisional shooting string in every class. Take a deck of cards to the range. Shuffle, hit the timer random countdown, and on the beep flip the top card and take action- one color or suit or number shoot. Another draw challenge and don't shoot. You can be binary (colors-go/no-go) or choose two suits for action, one for shots and one for draw and challenge- and two for no draw. Set up a die the same way...even/odd-( binary shoot/no-shoot)...shoot or draw and challenge on specific numbers, and no draw on everything else. You will be building speed and decision making at the same time.

Take the same deck, and pull two cards at random and tape them to the target. On the timer flip a card and make a decision. Same number or suit, shoot. Same color, draw and challenge. Anything else, stay holstered. To stress accuracy at speed, shoot the cards taped to the target.

Just a couple of thoughts. I try to put decisional shooting drills in every course I design.

pat

[JCN]

Take the same deck, and pull two cards at random and tape them to the target. On the timer flip a card and make a decision. Same number or suit, shoot. Same color, draw and challenge. Anything else, stay holstered. To stress accuracy at speed, shoot the cards taped to the target.

Just a couple of thoughts. I try to put decisional shooting drills in every course I design.

pat

Question since I don’t know.

Is there an upper limit to the time on the judgment drills?

[DacoRoman]

The one additional thing I would ask you both to keep your eyes on is the muzzle/sight stability when you get there. Basically, could you put two shots in the same fist size group once you get there without wobbling or pulling off target in over transition?

It’s not just the time that you are trying to make, it’s the muzzle stability. IMO as a pure technical drill, it wouldn’t just be the timing of a single shot on target, it would be the timing of a pair to be able to judge your stability once you got there.

So if going to play around with that dry and live, try it with a pair of shots.

I am still on vacation, but I did bring my strike clicker with me. If you listen with audio, you can hear the click of the trigger. Watch my hands at the click, there’s no bounce with the press out whereas there’s a little bounce as I’m trying to stop the transition from the low ready start.


https://youtu.be/F-ALGDx3IUE

Note that if your draw doesn’t have a horizontal press out at the end, you won’t get much of the benefit from this. For people who do a full extension rise up at the end of their draw or a fishing, casting wave from above, this won’t help (and the low ready will be superior).




Agreed, and I wasn’t implying tactics just technical commenting. The analogy to shooting while zippering would be shooting before starting pressing out from a compressed high ready. I estimate that I could probably still get thoracic shots on target from compressed high ready during the same time that somebody would be shooting legs or pelvis in a zipper. Either way would work in reality. Philosophically I kind of like being muzzle on intended target early.

EDIT: thought a video might help explain the compressed analogy to zipper. Listen with audio to hear the “shots.”


https://youtu.be/p5Osgofk8rw

Would it change the calculus if there was a table or chair in between you and the target and zippering might not have the intended effect? Yes, no, maybe? Again, I am not a tactician and I don’t mean to imply anything to that regard. Just technical thoughts.

Thanks for taking the time to post this, including the videos.

I’ll try not to “game” it :)

Using a 3 count draw, I’ll start from the #2 position (garment cleared by support hand and strong hand on the grip) and proceed to shooting a controlled pair (one dot picture for each shot) to the body A zone, at 7 yards.

From the low ready I’ll start with the gun aimed at the base of the target stand, using a typical isosceles free style hold, at 7yards, and come straight up to take the shots. I’ll plan on using the fancy slam free drawer technique ; where I slow down in the last 10-20% so that as soon as I get dot confirmation in the A zone I’ll shoot the controller pair, without over aiming or overshooting my aiming point.

Edit: I see that the low ready you are demonstrating is from lower down than aiming at the base of the target stand would achieve.. I’ll try to start from the position you are demonstrating.

I’m hoping to do this this weekend.

[UNM1136]

ETA: JCN... I forgot to quote you...

Like anything else, adapt to experience/skill level.

Our qual courses, IIRC and without looking it up are all "shoot", and you have 2-3 seconds to draw and get two rounds off. Might be a good place to start, and can be dialed in for the individually as you go. If you flip the card, decide "no shoot" and have a second remaining before the second beep, tighten it up. If you are struggling, give yourself more time. The goal, at least early on is to put time limits on decision making, not necessarily the application of the decision. I am sure they can, should, and will be combined at some point.

What I really like about this is you can set up more than binary decision making on both audible and visual inputs.

It is still limited in real life application, but it is a manageable drill....

pat

[Sig_Fiend]

I'm not advocating for or against anything, except maybe keeping options open. This just feels right to post anytime I see the subject of drawstroke and ready positions come up.

Some words from the late, great, Paul Gomez:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftC6MXFGxCg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLMesZVCZdw
As an aside, I get Forest Whitaker eye every time I see position sul, and the thought of it makes my wrist issues flare up. One "no-ready" position I truly dislike. ;)

Also, some interesting options from Mike Pannone (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46100-Mike-Pannone-video-on-ready-position), as well as a thread on PF discussing it:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJbvShbA-Kq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

p/CJbvShbA-Kq

Some of this may or may not quite be relevant to the discussion at hand or intent behind some of the scenarios mentioned. What I think is relevant is the systematic thinking, assessing the pros, cons, strength, safety, and performance of various techniques.
Then being able to flow into and out of appropriate techniques as the situation dictates. In some cases, maybe that's low ready? In others, maybe a high, compressed ready (aka averted #3)? Time, distance, and opportunity should dictate.

Other random thoughts:

"If all you have is a hammer..." I feel like the same applies to individual techniques.

For example, if all you have is a low ready, everything gets the low ready. This can easily lead to a cargo cult like mentality about technique, IMO.

Probably best to have, at minimum, both a low ready technique as well as a high ready technique (like an averted #3, NOT a "full Sabrina", temple index type).

[JCN]

Playing with a new gun today.


https://youtu.be/lz35h9fD_LQ

Hand on gun to confident 5 yard alpha ~0.60.

Did it from low ready and was in the 0.50 range but the hits were worse.

I found it hard to time the shots on the low to high transition, but easy on the draw.

[UNM1136]

I'm not advocating for or against anything, except maybe keeping options open. This just feels right to post anytime I see the subject of drawstroke and ready positions come up.

Some words from the late, great, Paul Gomez:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftC6MXFGxCg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLMesZVCZdw
As an aside, I get Forest Whitaker eye every time I see position sul, and the thought of it makes my wrist issues flare up. One "no-ready" position I truly dislike. ;)

Also, some interesting options from Mike Pannone (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46100-Mike-Pannone-video-on-ready-position), as well as a thread on PF discussing it:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJbvShbA-Kq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

p/CJbvShbA-Kq

Some of this may or may not quite be relevant to the discussion at hand or intent behind some of the scenarios mentioned. What I think is relevant is the systematic thinking, assessing the pros, cons, strength, safety, and performance of various techniques.
Then being able to flow into and out of appropriate techniques as the situation dictates. In some cases, maybe that's low ready? In others, maybe a high, compressed ready (aka averted #3)? Time, distance, and opportunity should dictate.

Other random thoughts:

"If all you have is a hammer..." I feel like the same applies to individual techniques.

For example, if all you have is a low ready, everything gets the low ready. This can easily lead to a cargo cult like mentality about technique, IMO.

Probably best to have, at minimum, both a low ready technique as well as a high ready technique (like an averted #3, NOT a "full Sabrina", temple index type).

Wow! Those bring back a lot of memories...Back in the 90s one of my martial arts buds was a Pararescueman who did enough time in the 24th STS to spend some time in the UK....He definitely knew the color of the boathouse at Hereford, and when I met him was an instructor at the Schoolhouse here in town.,

He had just come back from Gunsite bemoaning the lack of control of the gun at both the #2 Rock-n-Lock position and the Low Ready. He was a HUGE fan of the high ready as Paul Gomez described it, and for the same reasons. I have been using that a lot over my career. Another now retired SF guy held the gun centerline at what he called High Port, and pointed out that if you have normal binocular vision you were not creating much of a blind spot if your pistol at high port was in the overlapping fields of view from each eye. I avoided the argument by keeping the near vertical muzzle between chin and cheek level.

Then there were the years where boys clubs who spent a lot of time in shoothouses arguing that high ready positions were dangerous because of instructors on the catwalks and in multi story buildings, and the argument that a ND downward is more "under control", than a ND at an upward angle, and that in a stack an ND will likely kill a teammate vs a lower extremity injury. A CIF 18D of my acquaintance pointed that in multi story buildings downward NDs are every bit as bad as upward NDs, and NDs are just bad, all the way around, and he refused to abandon sound TTPs because of schoolhouse training protocols.

Since I took ECQC with SouthNarc, I have found the Thumb-Pec Index to be my go to during building searches when opening doors, searching toilet stalls and showers in public buildings, etc. I also find it very handy when searching with a handheld light and not wanting to muzzle anything I want illuminated and when I want direct light on something, rather splashing my WML off the ceiling or floor.

In certain classes for certain groups I am required to teach Sul. And while it isn't too bad when working in a group, since that is what it is designed for, it is far from my favorite sorta ready position. Mike Pannone's mods were welcome and stolen a while back, because they just flat out make so much more sense while accomplishing the same job.

pat

[BarneyCallahan]

Practice drawing to low ready …? Yes. The particulars of that practice I’ll leave to others.

The scenario I offered in post #45, “What Would You Do?” is relevant to this subject. I’ll explain shortly. But first:

The reminders that JohnO offered related to vehicle tactics are common truisms that I agree with and are related to the scenario I posted. But since vehicle tactics is not the subject of this thread, I’ll make only a couple of brief points, as they relate to above scenario.

If you’re in a vehicle that you’re not immediately able to move in order to escape danger, such as transmission in park, or worse, engine off, you are a sitting duck. In the scenario I posted, you (the person in the scenario) are in the passenger seat, unable to move the car yourself. Worse, your driver is oblivious, clueless to what is going on around her. If you were to suddenly tell her to run the red light, you’d probably be met with questions (“Why?”), rather than immediate action. As you check for cross traffic and try to get her to move the car, you’re taking you mind and eyes off the threats rapidly approaching from behind, loosing track of their behavior and possibly giving up any tactical advantage you might have (time is of the essence).

If you are armed and in a sitting duck, the common tactical advice is GET OUT, as JohnO alluded to.

A few general tactical truisms that apply: 1) Never give up; never stop fighting. A situation is initially only “impossible” if you decide before you ever start that it is impossible and give up. In which case you lose by default. 2) The element of surprise is half the battle. 3) Never draw on a drawn gun; never draw when someone has the drop on you. 4) Take the fight to the enemy.

The scenario I posted is actually something that happened to me back in the 80’s. I was a police officer (now retired), off duty that night. How I spontaneously reacted worked well and as I had hoped. This is just what I did. I’m not offering it as any kind of advice or recommendation. I posted because I think it reinforces the importance of being flexible and being ready and able (practicing) to draw to low ready, with a ‘I definitely mean business’ kind of demeanor.

When I realized these apparent want-a-be robbers/rapists/murders (whatever they were) were briskly approaching from behind, I quickly exited the car, faced them with gun in hands, low ready, and firmly asked, “Can I help you?” The apparent crook approaching my side immediately raised his empty hands and they both quickly turned and walked away into the shadows, as I watched. I never did get a good look at the other guy’s hands. We went on our merry way.

So, this turned out to be a non-event. But who knows what it could have been if I had not taken the initiative, surprised them and gotten the drop on them, rather than the other way around.

Being able to efficiently draw to low ready, with apparent competence, without notice matters.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I'm weighing past page #5, so, we'll see ...


Technical question regarding safeties.

In that situation, was the safety still on or off?

Would it change if you had a handgun with safety?

DASA?

Finger outside trigger guard?

Depends?

I can see a range of reasonable options.

Between 1911s and M&Ps, I've used handguns with frame-mounted safeties for the vast majority of my time using pistols (30+ years). Drawing to a ready, any ready, the thumb safety stays on. Drawing to the shot, the safety comes off once the muzzle rotates onto the threat, target. Finger stays on the frame (I used the frame/slide line), until the muzzle is on the threat, target.


Here’s a scenario that, ...
In the moment, you can’t see their hands. It is happening too quickly for you to check for cross traffic and instruct your driver to run the red light NOW!
What would you do?
The driving away responses were mentioned, I concur.


I'm not advocating for or against anything, except maybe keeping options open. ...

Other random thoughts:

"If all you have is a hammer..." I feel like the same applies to individual techniques.

For example, if all you have is a low ready, everything gets the low ready. This can easily lead to a cargo cult like mentality about technique, IMO.

Probably best to have, at minimum, both a low ready technique as well as a high ready technique (like an averted #3, NOT a "full Sabrina", temple index type).

While I'm pretty comfortable with a low ready, bent arm low ready (my eyes & optics driven) it is not the only answer, it is just a start point. Not that others haven't described it, I first heard it from Spaulding, I see the applicability of his Arc of Ready. Being able to work from Count #2 Thumb/Pectoral index thru a low ready to a compressed high ready and back addresses the various concerns and gives one a range to work in.

The "grab the slide" ready position is unique. That's the only example of it I've seen.

Fwiw, there is data & research, in peer-reviewed papers on decision-making, judgment, and ready positions. While neither a traditional low ready nor a compressed high ready were addressed, the work showed that the lower muzzle, the better the decision making and the fewer the mistake of fact shootings.

[DDTSGM]

The one additional thing I would ask you both to keep your eyes on is the muzzle/sight stability when you get there. Basically, could you put two shots in the same fist size group once you get there without wobbling or pulling off target in over transition?

It’s not just the time that you are trying to make, it’s the muzzle stability.


Note that if your draw doesn’t have a horizontal press out at the end, you won’t get much of the benefit from this.

Agreed, and I wasn’t implying tactics just technical commenting. The analogy to shooting while zippering would be shooting before starting pressing out from a compressed high ready. I estimate that I could probably still get thoracic shots on target from compressed high ready during the same time that somebody would be shooting legs or pelvis in a zipper. Either way would work in reality.

Philosophically I kind of like being muzzle on intended target early.

Would it change the calculus if there was a table or chair in between you and the target and zippering might not have the intended effect?

People tend to imagine their 'encounters' in ways that best suit their chosen tactics.

For the 'average' shooter one of the problems with the low-ready-lift or shovel draw is stopping the handgun before firing. Very often resulting in high hits. The saving grace is that if you intending to shoot upper center-mass those higher shots still impact in an area likely to cause rapid incapacitation.

Another problem occurs if you happen to be in close proximity to something - such as a table or counter - that inhibits your ability to complete the draw.

A good drill is to have two partners hold a lathe strip approximately bellybutton height about a foot away from your body then draw. This shows the limitations of the low-ready - lift draw.

[DacoRoman]

I tried the two drills.

I shot controlled/reactive to the dot pairs (dot confirmation for each shot) from 1) 45 deg Low Ready and 2) hand on the Holstered Gun, at 5 yards.

Below are the couple of videos my buddy took so you can see my starting positions; these were my best runs for each (I apologize for not telling my buddy to tape from the rear so you can see the target):

From the Low Ready: .81s/.34s 2A’s (I did get a .77s/.32s but with 1 Charlie)
From Hand on the Gun: .95s/.32s 2A’s (I did get a .92/.35s but with 1 Charlie)

Impression number one is that I need more practice to get the draw/presentation faster :o
Impression number two, is that for me...I seemed to find the iterations from the low ready technically easier, that is a smidge faster and easier to keep Charlies from creeping in - which is odd since I haven't practiced a presentation from the hard low ready in forever.

But...for me, as a civilian, I still think that the added advantage of not whipping the smoke wagon out prematurely with the hand on gun technique, over-rides the 0.08-0.15 second speed advantage to first shot that the Hard Low Ready provided me, at least in this test.

I will be working to consistently get 1.2s draws from concealment and 0.8s draws from Hand on Holstered Gun. And then work to improve from there.
And why is it that dry fire draws are significantly faster than live draws :mad:

Many thanks again to the contributors of this thread.


https://youtube.com/shorts/lmiyLVj5IGk

https://youtube.com/shorts/l5tghflc67M

[DacoRoman]

I'll just throw this up here too for the sake of completeness. This was done a week prior to the videos above. I ended up not putting them up mainly because upon review, the low ready was not nearly hard enough, it was way too shallow, but subjectively the gun seemed to be way lower than it really was, and I'm wondering if during times of stress one's "hard" low ready will in fact creep up toward a very shallow, flag the legs or pelvis type of low ready.. Just a thought..
The much more shallow Low Ready times were mid 0.6's to low 0.71s to first shot.

https://youtu.be/Oe2vm62v9eQ

I'll also throw a video of a rep from hand on holster also - the times for this drill were very similar to what I got a week later (videos above).

https://youtu.be/o7MfKYyLnnU