Smith & Wesson frame-mounted decocker deep dive…

[Tamara]

102669

This 5926 is part of a deep dive I’ve been curious about for years.

The whole frame-mounted decocker fad for Smith & Wesson 3rd Gen autos came and went in the few years before I got into the gun biz back in late ‘93.

I’m digging around to search the origins. Some primary source (https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2023/03/best-millimeter.html) material is here at p-f. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13081-S-amp-W-1076&p=243435&viewfull=1#post243435)

[Tamara]

The “Bart Simpson”…

102670

[Robinson]

The whole frame-mounted decocker fad for Smith & Wesson 3rd Gen autos came and went in the few years before I got into the gun biz back in late ‘93.

I’m digging around to search the origins. Some primary source (https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2023/03/best-millimeter.html) material is here at p-f. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13081-S-amp-W-1076&p=243435&viewfull=1#post243435)

I think I read somewhere that CHP wanted the frame mounted de-cocker because with the regular slide mounted safety/de-cocker some guys would load up then de-cock at the beginning of the day and forget to take the safety off before holstering. I have no idea if that's true or not, but maybe it's out there on the internet somewhere.

[Evil_Ed]

I'd imagine at some point they looked at what Sig was doing and decided to try giving that location a shot?

[fatdog]

I had an early 5926 that worked just fine, but then the whole recall thing happened and I sent mine back to the mothership.

Rumored horror story that I heard about an FBI academy gun that locked up so bad it had to be sent back to the factory with a live round in the chamber or some such nonsense, not sure if that story was true.

When mine came back with the replaced parts, I could not tell any difference in terms of handling it, decocking, etc. It did have a dot stamped some place close to the lever to denote it had been through the recall.

I sent it down the road back in the 90's when I dumped out of the gen 3's mostly. But mine was problem free while I owned it. I don't recall the trigger being significantly different from the slide mounted decockers but that was a long long time ago.

[JRB]

I have nothing to add except that 3rd gen S&W autos are way cooler than they should be, and I'm really glad Tamara is doing this.

As always, I'm happy to see more 3rd gen S&W anything from P-F royalty.

[UNM1136]

The first canine guy I ever met wanted to sell me a 1076 in 1993 or so. I desperately wanted that gun. The cartridge, the platform...I just didn't have $500 at the time. Then I found out he had problems with the gun.

All this time later, and knowing how he treated his dogs (and why he had been canned by what would be my first agency), I am not surprised he tried unloading that gun on a college student and wishful eyed security guard.

But yeah, Third Gen Smiths have always been super cool, reliable and desirable in all calibers...

pat

[4RNR]

Had a 1026 back around 2016. Sold it to some dealer in MN I believe. Saw him selling it a few years ago

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[titsonritz]

I had a 1076 back in the early 90's. I would have preferred to have a 1086 or 1046.

[Brian T]

I think I read somewhere that CHP wanted the frame mounted de-cocker because with the regular slide mounted safety/de-cocker some guys would load up then de-cock at the beginning of the day and forget to take the safety off before holstering. I have no idea if that's true or not, but maybe it's out there on the internet somewhere.

CHP's second batch of 4006TSWs, specifically called the "CHP4006TSW", has the slide mounted decocker only setup. they get my vote for best'est .40 service pistol.

[MD7305]

The first centerfire, semiauto I ever fired was my cousin's 5926 duty gun. I have very fond memories of that pistol.

[MattyD380]

That’s interesting to hear the FBI actually approached Sig to design a 10mm. Woulda been cool to see that come to fruition. I mean, it kinda… did. But I mean back in the ‘90s.

Not sure why Smith decided to go for the frame-mounted decocker. I always assumed it was generally because “that’s what Sig does.” And Sig is cool.

I had a 1076 with a frame-mounted decocker. I actually sent mine into Smith for the recall (in 2017), and they did it free of charge. Nice job, Smith.

As far as what they actually change… I know they replace the side plate with a new one that has a black plastic spacer along the section that runs under the top edge of the grip panel. If you look down at the top of the gun, you can see if there’s a little strip of plastic just under the grip—that’s one way to tell if the recall’s been done. They were supposed to add punch marks under the decocker to show if the work had been done. But I’m not sure they always did? They didn’t on mine… but that was like a throwback repair.

The decocker worked just fine on my 1076. I know people say they’re kinda “fiddly”—but I actually like the slicker slide without the levers. Unfortunately, that gun would give me arbitrary failures to feed. Not often. But enough to piss me off. So did my 4566, actually. If I ever get another 10XX, it’s gonna be a 5 inch—both my 645 and 4506-1 ran/run like tops. A 1026 would be sublime.

But for something that won’t cost my pancreas… I’d love to have a 5926.

[Trooper224]

S&W went with the frame decocker at the insistence of the FBI. So, they came up with that retrofitted abortion and it worked as well as you'd expect, for a retrofitted abortion. Most of the mechanical problems the FBI encountered were due to it, imagine that. I dig 3rd Gen Smiths, but you couldn't give me one with that feature.

[Bucky]

I think there is a greater fondness for these guns now that they’re gone then when they were available and plentiful. I think a better bet back in the day was Sig or Beretta. (I do miss a time when Sig was cream of the crop).

[Tackleberry40sw]

I had a 4026 with the frame mounted decocker back in the mid to late 90's. It is one of the few pistols I wished i still had.

[Tamara]

I think there is a greater fondness for these guns now that they’re gone then when they were available and plentiful. I think a better bet back in the day was Sig or Beretta. (I do miss a time when Sig was cream of the crop).

You inadvertently explained why they didn’t sell commercially.

A SIG P-226 had a stamped sheet metal slide with a roll-pinned breechblock and a frame full of toaster parts while a 5906 was entirely made from milled stainless steel, but American consumers were conditioned to think “German = BMW 325, American = Chevy Celebrity” and couldn’t wrap their heads around the domestic costing as much or more than the import.

[45dotACP]

You inadvertently explained why they didn’t sell commercially.

A SIG P-226 had a stamped sheet metal slide with a roll-pinned breechblock and a frame full of toaster parts while a 5906 was entirely made from milled stainless steel, but American consumers were conditioned to think “German = BMW 325, American = Chevy Celebrity” and couldn’t wrap their heads around the domestic costing as much or more than the import.Thanks for deepening my regret for not buying buckets of 3rd gen smith's when they were 350 bucks a pop at gun show tables....very sad

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[JSGlock34]

My first handgun was a S&W 5903. As an aspiring military officer, I was originally focused on the Beretta 92 considering its recent adoption as the M9. But the gun rags of the day were busy convincing me that the M9 was a horrible choice and that the slides would fly off if you looked at them funny. The 5903 mimicked the Beretta specs and manual of arms so it seemed like a logical analog.

Should’ve just ignored the press and bought the 92, but the 5903 was cool.

[Duelist]

You inadvertently explained why they didn’t sell commercially.

A SIG P-226 had a stamped sheet metal slide with a roll-pinned breechblock and a frame full of toaster parts while a 5906 was entirely made from milled stainless steel, but American consumers were conditioned to think “German = BMW 325, American = Chevy Celebrity” and couldn’t wrap their heads around the domestic costing as much or more than the import.

As well as being equal or superior to the import in every rational measure.

[JAH 3rd]

The first centerfire, semiauto I ever fired was my cousin's 5926 duty gun. I have very fond memories of that pistol.

My first semi-auto purchase was a blued S&W model 59. Had a known extractor issue ( I think ) to S&W, which caused my 59 to jam. Sent it back to S&W, fixed free of charge, and never malfunctioned again. Great pistol. Traded it away on my next handgun purchase. I do have a 5906 and fire it from time to time.

[Bucky]

A SIG P-226 had a stamped sheet metal slide with a roll-pinned breechblock and a frame full of toaster parts while a 5906 was entirely made from milled stainless steel, but American consumers were conditioned to think “German = BMW 325, American = Chevy Celebrity” and couldn’t wrap their heads around the domestic costing as much or more than the import.

A bucket full of toaster parts that passed the XM9 trials, whereas the Smith did not?

[Bucky]

My first semi-auto purchase was a blued S&W model 59. Had a known extractor issue ( I think ) to S&W, which caused my 59 to jam. Sent it back to S&W, fixed free of charge, and never malfunctioned again. Great pistol. Traded it away on my next handgun purchase. I do have a 5906 and fire it from time to time.

I’d love an original 59 to complement my 6” Python. Starsky and Hutch was my favorite show of all time until The Shield aired more than 2 decades later. (Dang, guess I need a 4506 too :p)

[fatdog]

American consumers were conditioned to think “German = BMW 325, American = Chevy Celebrity”

That essentially nails my decision in the first half of the 90's to dump all my S&W Gen 2's and the few Gen 3's I had and go all Sig in their place....it did not make me a better shooter or better protected, but my inner 10 year old thought he was upgrading to the cool high speed guns. It was really a net zero gain.

[Navin Johnson]

A friend who was PD in that era had option of 228 or 220

220's broke a lot. 228's were solid. Armorer for his PD carried and recomended 228

This is in era when rags shit on 9mm

Also in that time one couldn't read an article about a SIG without the word excellent in it 20 to 30 times.

Everyone deficated on Smiths likely cause of earlier models.

Also remember support is difficult to non existent on gen 3 S&W's

[Tamara]

A bucket full of toaster parts that passed the XM9 trials, whereas the Smith did not?

They time traveled a 3rd Gen Smith to the XM9 trials?

Technology in Springfield was even more advanced than I supposed. :D

(Although the 2nd Gen 459 did fine in the initial USAF tests, and accusations of logrolling plagued the second round. See p.56 here (https://americanhandgunner.com/1983issues/HMJ83.pdf).)

[Daniel Watters]

There were at least three bricked FBI 1076 documented. One happened in Miami in the field. No shots were fired in the arrest of a bank robber, but when the agent tried to clear his pistol afterwards, it was locked up. Couldn't rack the slide, cock the hammer, or pull the trigger. Two similar incidents happened on the range: one in Tampa and the other in Oklahoma City.

Dean Speir's sources put the blame on a modified FBI trigger with slightly longer hooks to reduce the amount of pre-travel slack before engagement of the draw bar.

I've also seen claims that the draw bar itself was interacting with the loaded magazine in a weird case of tolerance stacking. Note that the commercial recall wanted the magazines along with the pistol.

Now the really odd thing is that the 4026 was not included in the commercial recall. Were there no commercial 4026 in circulation or were they simply not assembled at the same time as the effected 1076?

[Bucky]

They time traveled a 3rd Gen Smith to the XM9 trials?

Technology in Springfield was even more advanced than I supposed. :D


Doc. Brown invented time travel in 1985. So maybe just in time?

(Ironically I JUST came back from speaking with my neighbor who has a DeLorean)

My point stands, warranted or not, these guns get more love now than when they were available.

[Tamara]

There were at least three bricked FBI 1076 documented. One happened in Miami in the field. No shots were fired in the arrest of a bank robber, but when the agent tried to clear his pistol afterwards, it was locked up. Couldn't rack the slide, cock the hammer, or pull the trigger. Two similar incidents happened on the range: one in Tampa and the other in Oklahoma City.

Dean Speir's sources put the blame on a modified FBI trigger with slightly longer hooks to reduce the amount of pre-travel slack before engagement of the draw bar.

I've also seen claims that the draw bar itself was interacting with the loaded magazine in a weird case of tolerance stacking. Note that the commercial recall wanted the magazines along with the pistol.

Now the really odd thing is that the 4026 was not included in the commercial recall. Were there no commercial 4026 in circulation or were they simply not assembled at the same time as the effected 1076?

I don’t know that any 4026’s were around when the recall happened.

[Rick R]

A SIG P-226 had a stamped sheet metal slide with a roll-pinned breechblock and a frame full of toaster parts while a 5906 was entirely made from milled stainless.

FWIW The Armorers school for the Gen III S&W guns was a week in Springfield, SIG’s school was a day and a half at a community college. After doing both during the same time period I was more confident with the stamped slide P-226 toaster in my holster. The 1006s were decent guns but the reach to hit the decocker on the 1076 (?) wasn’t as natural as on the SIG.

And “Yes” guys and gals showed up at the range with the dingus in different positions on their 1006s apparently due to the phase of the moon. Hustling everyone out to the line to shoot their duty ammo frequently resulted in dingus antics as they tried to remember where they last put it.

There are reasons Glock and Glock-ish platforms now rule the roost with LEO’s who by and large aren’t gun people.

[Tamara]

And “Yes” guys and gals showed up at the range with the dingus in different positions on their 1006s apparently due to the phase of the moon. Hustling everyone out to the line to shoot their duty ammo frequently resulted in dingus antics as they tried to remember where they last put it.

There are reasons Glock and Glock-ish platforms now rule the roost with LEO’s who by and large aren’t gun people.
We’ve substituted a training issue that involved safety misapplication with a training issue that put .40 caliber holes in cop shop locker rooms across America.

[Daniel Watters]

For what it's worth, here is S&W's patent for the frame-mounted decocker:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5086579A/en

I have a copy of what is reputedly the FBI's Request for Proposal for the 10mm pistol. I'll need to dig it up. It is pretty clear that they wanted a steel-frame, decock-only DA/SA pistol. The mid-velocity load was also called out in the RFP.

[DDTSGM]

FWIW The Armorers school for the Gen III S&W guns was a week in Springfield, SIG’s school was a day and a half at a community college. After doing both during the same time period I was more confident with the stamped slide P-226 toaster in my holster.

Pretty much the truth.

I armorer serviced a bunch of Sigs and Smiths during that time period. I taught with a 639 that I absolutely loved because during that time period more of our agencies were using the Smiths. I stayed with that 639 until the time that it became apparent Glock was going to supplant the Smiths as the primary duty pistol in our area. (I stayed with the 639 because I like the grips better than the 3906 or 5906)

I have to say that during that time period I saw more problems per capita with Smiths than Sigs. Aside from the cobbled frame mounted decocker on the 5926, the Smith had a more complicated design and, IME, more parts prone breakage. Couldn't find a frame decocker schematic so used a 5906. Red are what I perceived as problem areas:

102718

Don't recall a lot of problems with the corresponding parts on the SIG. So I'm not sure that 'toaster' parts is a good description.

[Daniel Watters]

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
SOLICITATION NO. RFP 4756
FOR 10 mm PISTOLS

SPECIFICATIONS
PART I
1. WEAPON

(a) The pistol shall be of caliber 10mm. Specifically, the loading to be used shall consist of SAAMI specification 10mm cartridge cases, 180 grain hollowpoint bullets, and 5.2 grains of Bullseye powder or powder sufficiently similar as to give the same pressure peak and average pressure as 5.2 grains of Bullseye. The overall length of the loaded cartridge shall be 1.250 inches.
(b) The pistol frame and slide shall be all steel construction, warranted against cracks or other stress and fatigue failures for 40,000 rounds of the ammunition as specified in (a). Other materials will be considered if a similar warranty accompanies the weapon, and evidence of durability is submitted detailing the tests conducted and the results obtained. Documentation of claims must be submitted from a source independent of the manufacturer as well as the manufacturer's own test data. The FBI reserves the right to verify evidence of service life before the award. The weight of the empty pistol without a magazine inserted shall not exceed 37.0 ounces.
(c) The pistol shall not have a magazine safety or magazine disconnector which prevents firing without a magazine inserted.
(d) The pistol shall have a decocking lever capable of being operated by the shooting hand alone, whether left or right handed and which allows the pistol to be safely decocked without touching or pulling the trigger.
(e) The pistol shall not have an external manual safety or any other feature which must be manipulated in order to enable the pistol to fire.
(f) The external surfaces of the pistol will be of a dark and/or matte, non-glare finish; and the finish shall be restorable to its original condition by FBI gun vault armorers. FBI gunvault capabilities include hot bluing, polishing and buffing, and sand blasting. Finishes restorable by other means are acceptable if the manufacturer will provide the training necessary to impart the required skills and expertise, and if any new equipment necessary will not cost more than $10,000. Manufacturers will submit data regarding this finish accordingly with their samples.
(g) The magazine release shall be located on the frame of the pistol to the rear of the trigger guard. It shall be operable by the shooting hand alone, whether right or left handed and shall require pressure "in" towards the frame to release the magazine. Additional, favorable consideration will be given for a magazine release which can be easily installed to operate from either the left or right side of the frame without special tooling and without altering the frame.
(h) All magazines shall drop freely from the weapon when the magazine release is depressed, regardless of the number of rounds of ammunition in the magazine.
(i) The pistol shall be capable of firing the first round in the chamber with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode by pulling the trigger, without having to manipulate any other controls, levers, safeties, or cocking devices.
(j) The first shot trigger pull with the weapon in a decocked, or hammer down, mode shall be a smooth, continuous trigger pull requiring a pressure of 10-12 pounds straight to the rear.
(k) The decocked, or hammer down, mode is defined as the trigger fully forward and at rest, and the hammer or striker forward, at rest, and under no spring tension.
(I) The trigger pull necessary to fire all subsequent shots after the first shot specified in (j) above, or single action trigger, shall be a short, smooth trigger pull requiring a pressure of 5-7 pounds straight to the rear. The amount of forward travel required to reset the trigger and disconnector for a subsequent shot shall not exceed 0.25 inch measured at the tip of the trigger.
(m) There shall be 3/16 inch (plus or minus 1/16 inch) slack or movement in the single action trigger pull prior to that point where pressure is applied to the sear. This measurement is taken on the center of the trigger.
(n) The pistol shall have a firing pin block which will prevent the pistol from firing if dropped.
(o) The pistol shall have an inertial firing pin.
(p) The pistol shall have a disconnector which shall prevent the pistol from firing out of battery and prevent the hammer or striker from being released if the trigger is held to the rear after firing.
(q) The pistol shall have a barrel length of at least 3.5 inches but not more than 5.25 inches. The barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the rear-most top surface of the hood or chamber. The rate of twist of the rifling in the barrel will be one turn in 16 inches. A loaded chamber indicator which will indicate by sight and touch when the chamber is loaded is a desirable other feature.
(r) The pistol shall be provided with fixed, front and rear sights. Both front and rear sights will be capable of being removed and replaced, and be capable of being drifted right or left to adjust for windage. The front and/or rear sights shall be available in at least three different heights to allow for elevation adjustments.
(s) The sights shall be equipped with three dot tritium night sights completely contained within the outline of the sight as viewed from the rear of the weapon so as to not interrupt or impair the dark outline of the sights. Plain sights shall be available as optional
replacement sights. Any sighting aids on the plain sights shall be completely contained within the outline of the sight as viewed from the rear.
(t) Each pistol shall be supplied with 6 magazines. The minimum desired capacity for the weapon with a fully loaded magazine and one round in the chamber is 12 rounds.
(u) Each pistol shall be supplied with one additional, extended magazine which is capable of holding at least 50% more rounds than any one of the
magazines in (t) above.
(v) Every magazine shall be equipped with an extended, protective base pad which will help cushion the impact of the magazine when dropped freely from within the weapon, and which shall extend the bases of the magazines in (t) above at least 1/8 inch but no more than 1/4 inch below the bottom-most surface of the grip. The base pads shall not have to be removed for assembly/disassembly of the magazine.
(w) The pistol and the magazines shall not be capable of being assembled incorrectly during the course of normal field stripping and cleaning procedures.
(x) The pistol shall not be capable of being disassembled when in a firing condition, with the slide and barrel assembly in battery and a magazine in place.
(y) The pistol shall not require the trigger to be pulled in order to field strip, or disassemble, the slide from the frame.
(z) At least two different configurations of grips or grip panels will be available, and/or an optional
trigger shape, as options for the pistol in addition to the standard grips or grip panels, to enable better fitting of the weapon to different sized hands by changing the shape, trigger reach, front to rear distance, width, or other size and shape characteristics. Specifically, there shall be a means of decreasing the distance between the front center of the trigger and the rear of the frame or grips to enable the weapon to better fit small-handed shooters.
(aa) The distance from the bottom rear surface of the trigger guard to the bottom of the frame shall not be less than 2.5 inches measured along the front surface of the frame.
(bb) At least 50% of the surface area of the front of the grip frame below the trigger guard shall be checkered to improve grip control and retention.
(cc) The grips, grip panels, and rear of the grip frame shall be checkered and/or composed of a non-slip substance with the qualities of neoprene.
(dd) All exposed corners and sharp edges shall be rounded, particularly around the juncture of the trigger guard and frame, the bottom edges of the trigger guard, the edges of the hammer, corners of the rear sight, and forward edges of the trigger.
(ee) The magazine well shall be beveled to facilitate insertion of a magazine.
(ff) Six samples of each pistol submitted shall be provided. The six samples representing one submission shall each be fully representative of the pistol which shall be produced by the manufacturer should that manufacturer win the contract.
(gg) Each pistol shall be sighted in at 25 yards with the ammunition specified in (a) above so that the point of aim and the point of impact coincide within a 1" radius about the point of aim. Point of impact is defined as the center of a 10 shot group.
(hh) Ammunition as specified in (a) above shall be used to test the pistol for accuracy. The ammunition will first be fired in a 5-inch test barrel held in a Ransom Rest. The test barrel will have rifling with a rate of twist of one turn in 16 inches. Two 10-shot groups will be fired at 25 yards and the average group computed. Each sample pistol will be fired using the same lot of ammunition and the same Ransom Rest. Two 10-shot groups will be fired from each sample submitted. All groups thus fired will be averaged together, and the average group thus obtained should not exceed 2.5 times the average group obtained with that lot of ammunition from the test barrel. All groups will be measured from center to center across the extreme spread of the group.
(ii) The manufacturer shall submit two sets of Ransom Rest inserts for use with the pistol. The inserts will not be returned. Three of the six samples shall be regularly field stripped and cleaned during the course of live fire testing. The other three samples will be initially field stripped and cleaned, but they will not be cleaned at all during the course of live fire testing.
(kk) A record shall be kept of every stoppage which occurs during live fire testing. A stoppage is defined as any malfunction or problem which occurs which prevents the pistol from firing regardless of cause, and which can be corrected by the shooter (for example, failure to eject, failure to feed, dropping of the magazine, etc.), except for ammunition failures. The rate of stoppage for each gun will be computed by dividing the number of stoppages into the total number of rounds fired through the pistol. A rate greater than one per 200 rounds fired is undesirable. If more than two of the six samples exceed the 1:200 rate, the submission may be rejected. If no more than two of the sample weapons exceed the 1:200 rate, the average stoppage rate for all six combined will be computed by dividing the total stoppages for all six into the total rounds fired through all six samples. This figure will be used for evaluative purposes regarding the submission.
(ll) Any breakages that occur during the course of live fire testing may be grounds for rejection of the submission. A breakage is defined as any stoppage, malfunction, or deterioration of the weapon which prevents firing or affects the structural integrity of the weapon, and which cannot be resolved by the Shooter on the line.
(mm) Each sample of each submission shall be live fire tested with a minimum of 210 rounds of the ammunition specified in (a) above by each member of the Test and Evaluation Group as follows:


1. Double Action - at least 3 10-shot groups will be fired at 15 yards. Each shot will be fired using the first shot, or double action, trigger.
2. Single Action - at least 3 10-shot groups will be fired at 25 yards. Each shot will be fired using the second shot, or single action, trigger.
3. 2x2 - at least 20 shots will be fired at 10 yards in 2-shot strings. The first shot will be double action and the second shot single action. This will test the transition from double to single action, trigger reset distance, smoothness and length of pull, and their effects on the shooter's speed and accuracy.
4. 5x5 - at least 50 shots will be fired at 10 yards in 10-shot strings, two magazines of five rounds each per string. The shooter will have 10 seconds to fire all 10 rounds, with the first shot double action, and including a magazine change. This will test the pistols trigger, recoil system, and operating features relative to their effects upon the shooter's speed, accuracy, and efficiency.
5. 50 yard - at least three 10-shot groups will be fired prone at 50 yards, single action only. This will test the pistol's ability in the hands of a shooter at relatively extreme handgun range where any adverse effects will be readily revealed on the target.
6. PQC - one run of the FBI Pistol Qualification Course (a 50 round course) will be fired to measure a shooter's ability to score and qualify with the weapon. A description of the PQC is appended to these specifications.

(nn) Two of the six samples shall be subjected to the following abusive tests upon the conclusion of live fire testing:


(a) They will be loaded with a primed cartridge case and dropped 9 times from a height of 3 feet to land on the rear of the slide on a floor of quarry tile or concrete as follows:



1. 3 times - with the hammer cocked
2. 3 times - with the hammer decocked
3. 3 times - with the hammer released by the trigger and eased as far forward as it will go


In order to pass, the primed cartridge case must not be fired as a result of these drops.
(b) They will be loaded with a primed cartridge case and dropped 9 times from a height of 3 feet to land on the muzzle. The drops will be 3 times with the hammer in each of the 3 conditions cited above, and on a floor of quarry tile or concrete.
In order to pass, the primed cartridge case must not be fired as a result of these drops.
(c) The trigger guard of the pistol shall be struck once by a metal wedge dropped from a height of 12 inches (plus or minus 0.25 inches). The height is measured vertically from the surface of the trigger guard to the lowest point on the striking edge of the wedge.
The metal wedge will weigh 8 pounds. The striking edge is radiused. The edge is flat, measuring 1/8 inch wide along its entire length. The wedge is inserted upon a wooden handle which extends 33 inches from the near side of the wedge. The weight of the wedge and handle combined is 9.5 pounds. The wooden handle is drilled and bolted between two metal uprights so the wedge can fall freely in an arc.
The bolt is 11.75 inches above the base.
The distance from the bolt to the center of the wedge is 32.25 inches. A metal vise is bolted to the base so that when the striking edge of the wedge is resting on the top of the vise jaws, the wooden handle is parallel to the base.
The pistols to be tested will be held upside down in the vise so that the impact area on the trigger guard is as horizontal as possible. The pistol will be adjusted so that the impact of the wedge occurs in the area between 1/8 inch and 3/8 inch immediately behind the tip of the trigger when the trigger is in its fully forward, decocked position.
In order to pass, the trigger guard must not bend enough to prevent or hinder the trigger from being pulled in the first shot, or double action, mode.
(d) The weapon, with magazine inserted, will be thrown twice, once in such a way as to land on the right side, and once in such a way as to land on the left side. The throw will be for a distance of approximately 15 feet, not to exceed a height of approximately 4 feet, to land on a floor of quarry tile or concrete.
To pass this test, the weapon must be functional when completed, capable of being fired, and magazines intact. There will be no penalty if the magazines are released from the weapon upon impact, provided they are not damaged and dysfunctional.
(e) Any damage which occurs to the weapon during abusive testing which would prevent the weapon from firing shall be a failure too. The manufacturer of the winning pistol shall provide armorer/gunsmith training to all FBI gunsmiths on-site at the FBI Academy, Quantico, concurrent with the first delivery of weapons. Specifically, such training will include complete detailed disassembly and assembly of the weapons, diagnosis and resolution of malfunctions, fitting of parts, training in the functioning and engineering of the design, symptoms of impending malfunctions and actual malfunctions, necessary tools and their proper use, and necessary dimensions and tolerances.

(pp) During the course of this contract, inclusive of all option years, it is estimated that a not to exceed amount of 5% of the weapons to be procured may need modifications (i. e., shorter barrels/slides, frames, even at the expense of magazine capacity). Prices for these will be negotiated at time of exercise of option. For the purpose of evaluation, only the basic model will be considered.

[Tamara]

Don't recall a lot of problems with the corresponding parts on the SIG. So I'm not sure that 'toaster' parts is a good description.

"Toaster parts" is a joke about stamped sheet metal innards and fiddly coil springs, used by 1911 snobs to refer to the guts of pretty much any postwar double action. To be fair, there are quite a few in the Smith, too.

People are taking this like I said that their beloved SIGs don't work, which is far from the truth. The P-22x SIGs are some of the most rugged and dependable pistols out there. So are Glocks. Yet both were as inexpensively constructed as they could be at the time: The SIG P-22x using WWII-era volkspistole technology acquired via Sauer, and the Glock by being literally about as cheap to build as a service pistol can be.

My point was that back in the 1990s, customers would be like "How come this Smith & Wesson, which is a domestic gun, costs as much or more than these sophisticated Teutonic imports? [gestures at P-226 and USP-9] This Ruger is also domestic, but at least it's priced low."

The ignorant gun store clerk (me) would shrug her shoulders and say "I dunno" when the reason is that, given the Deutschmark-to-Dollar exchange rate at the time, SIG was rakin' in the bucks on their volkspistoles on the commercial market allowing them to lowball LE & mil contracts, and the gun magazines were abetting it by talking up the stamped-slide Sauers like they were hand-built Korths or something.

The Smiths were designed with 1940s manufacturing techniques in mind and even the most cheapened three-digit Value Series guns, with plastic sights and magazine releases and MIM guts and simple bevels replacing all the radiuses on the slide, still couldn't compete price-wise with the polymer wave cresting over the market (which would ironically sink the Sauer volkspistoles, too.)

[Hambo]

"Toaster parts" is a joke about stamped sheet metal innards and fiddly coil springs, used by 1911 snobs to refer to the guts of pretty much any postwar double action. To be fair, there are quite a few in the Smith, too.


It could have been the most magical part in the world, but to me the frame decocker felt like it was made of pop can pull tabs. That's from a sample of 2-3 commercial pistols and maybe one FBI gun. At least one of the commercial guns was a .45 (number salad model unknown). I don't recall the price vs anything else. I do recall asking myself, "Why?" My belief at the time was that S&W had people emptying parts bins and making them into whateverthefuck. It was a fun time because you really never knew what you would see next from them.

[Tamara]

It could have been the most magical part in the world, but to me the frame decocker felt like it was made of pop can pull tabs.

Sorry, we are now having two, maybe three, separate discussions in this thread. The word I used for that retrofitted decocker abortion was "janky".

The other stuff was a response to Bucky's comment on 3rd Gens in general.

[Hambo]

Sorry, we are now having two, maybe three, separate discussions in this thread. The word I used for that retrofitted decocker abortion was "janky".


I was just adding random thoughts filtered through decades of potentially faulty memory. We're on the same page.

[Tamara]

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
SOLICITATION NO. RFP 4756
FOR 10 mm PISTOLS

SPECIFICATIONS
PART I
1. WEAPON
...
(d) The pistol shall have a decocking lever capable of being operated by the shooting hand alone, whether left or right handed and which allows the pistol to be safely decocked without touching or pulling the trigger.
(e) The pistol shall not have an external manual safety or any other feature which must be manipulated in order to enable the pistol to fire.
(f) The external surfaces of the pistol will be of a dark and/or matte, non-glare finish; and the finish shall be restorable to its original condition by FBI gun vault armorers. FBI gunvault capabilities include hot bluing, polishing and buffing, and sand blasting. Finishes restorable by other means are acceptable if the manufacturer will provide the training necessary to impart the required skills and expertise, and if any new equipment necessary will not cost more than $10,000. Manufacturers will submit data regarding this finish accordingly with their samples.
(g) The magazine release shall be located on the frame of the pistol to the rear of the trigger guard. It shall be operable by the shooting hand alone, whether right or left handed and shall require pressure "in" towards the frame to release the magazine. Additional, favorable consideration will be given for a magazine release which can be easily installed to operate from either the left or right side of the frame without special tooling and without altering the frame.
(h) All magazines shall drop freely from the weapon when the magazine release is depressed, regardless of the number of rounds of ammunition in the magazine.
...
(y) The pistol shall not require the trigger to be pulled in order to field strip, or disassemble, the slide from the frame.
(z) At least two different configurations of grips or grip panels will be available, and/or an optional
trigger shape, as options for the pistol in addition to the standard grips or grip panels, to enable better fitting of the weapon to different sized hands by changing the shape, trigger reach, front to rear distance, width, or other size and shape characteristics. Specifically, there shall be a means of decreasing the distance between the front center of the trigger and the rear of the frame or grips to enable the weapon to better fit small-handed shooters.



Very skillfully written to say "Glock & HK stay away! Also, we'd really prefer a SIG!" :D

[Brian T]

Also remember support is difficult to non existent on gen 3 S&W's

Eh, I think that is a bit overblown.

There are still plenty of parts out there for S&W 3rd Gens. (Edited to Add: One must know where to look. Gun Garage, and places similar to it, are where one needs to look, besides Numrich). Keep in mind the commonality of a lot of the parts in the 3rd Gen. If you can find a hammer for a 5906 (Numrich has plenty), it works on 3903, 3906, 3913, 5903, 5906, 6903, 6906 and that doesnt include the .40S&W variants. The same can be said for several parts; triggers, discos, sears, mag releases, etc. Even the single stack guns share parts amongst themselves.

Servicing one's own S&W 3rd Gen isn't that difficult! Especially if I can do it! There are some excellent videos on YT, especially a series by a guy named BluBelly2.


Servicing the older folded steel SIGs aint getting any easier. Last time I was on S**Forum they were in a state of constant bitch over the lack of new extractors, block pins, L-shaped trigger bar springs, etc.

[Daniel Watters]

The following was represented by an advanced S&W collector as an internal memo from a S&W engineer to management. It discussed some of the issues being had by the FBI with their Model 1076, along with potential engineering changes. Note the mention of the special FBI spec trigger.


The descriptions of the pistols which locked up in Miami and Tampa were identical. The hammer was in the half-cock position; the trigger was fully forward with no freedom of movement; the hammer could not be fully cocked, and the rearward travel of the slide was limited by the hammer. Both pistols were reloaded just prior to the lockup.

It has been determined it is possible for the drawbar to be lifted and locked in a position that prevents trigger movement. Once in the locked position, neither the trigger nor the drawbar are free to move. Therefore, the slide can only move to the point where the hammer makes contact with the drawbar. Only with the hammer in the 1/2 cock position, and even then the possibility exists only on a small percentage of limits, is the drawbar free to be put into a locked position. The force that lifts the drawbar into the locked position is the top round of the magazine during loading.

This lockup is not possible with other S&W pistols in that the special FBI trigger has a different interface where the trigger, the trigger play spring and drawbar intersect. On standard S&W triggers, the area of the trigger that is causing the lockup has been removed.

A simple test has been devised to determine whether or not a pistol can possibly be locked up. This test is performed with the pistol field stripped and the hammer in the 1/2 cock position. To test the pistol, you simply push the drawbar forward and up. Then pull the trigger. If you cannot move the trigger, it is possible for the pistol to be locked up. Even then, it would require a round to be very far forward in the magazine to actually contact and push up the drawbar.

There appear to be two possible product changes to prevent a pistol from locking up. First, the current trigger can be modified to add 0.010" of material to the front stop surface. This added material changes the relationship between the trigger and drawbar in a way that prevents the two parts from ever getting into a lockup condition. The second solution is to change back to the standard trigger used on all other S&W pistols. Further testing is still required to insure that this solution has no negative tradeoffs.

To verify the effectiveness of both solutions, the FBI trigger with 0.010" added and the standard trigger, are not sensitive to wear, endurance tests were conducted for both configurations. Contact is made between the trigger and drawbar in the FBI configuration. No contact exists between these parts in the standard trigger configuration. Therefore, four pistols were endurance tested with the FBI trigger and only one with the standard trigger. The four pistols with FBI triggers were fired 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 and 20,000 rounds. The pistol with the standard trigger was fired 20,000 rounds. No wear on the critical surfaces was seen after the test. None of the five pistols could be put into the lockup position after the endurance test.

II. CHIPPED EXTRACTORS

As we have previously reported, the cause of the chipped extractors was the processing of this part. A small burr was being generated during machining and became brittle when the part was hardened by heat treatment. The correction was in reprocessing the part to eliminate the burr.

Parts have been made to the new process and test fired. Six pistols were test fired with new extractors. The number of rounds fired through each pistol are:
1 pistol 36,000 rounds
2 pistols 20,000 rounds
1 pistol 15,000 rounds
1 pistol 10,000 rounds
1 pistol 5,000 rounds

No chipping or any other damage was seen on any of the six extractors. These parts are available for inspection.

III. CRACKED MAGAZINE FOLLOWERS

The test procedure used to determine which material should be used in the magazine follower was described in our previous letter. In addition to these tests, we have loaded and fired 100 magazine assemblies 100 times each with no damage to the follower. An automated machine was developed to slam both loaded and unloaded magazines into a frame. This machine has been used, and did not fracture the new follower after 50,000 cycles.

IV. BROKEN TRIGGER PLAY SPRING

Trigger play springs had been breaking after approximately 1,500 rounds during training at Quantico. Prior to the spring actually breaking, it was frequently observed that one or both of the legs, which contact the trigger, had been severely bent rearward.

The first action taken to improve the durability of this part was to increase the amount of clearance between it and the pistol frame. This was done to assure no contact between these two parts under any condition. When the clearance cut in the frame was increased by 0.020" on each side, the severe bending of the spring was eliminated and the durability increased to approximately 3,000 rounds.

After exploring and discounting stress resulting from thermal cycles, die wear, and improper processing, it was decided to decrease the stress level in the part by making it more flexible. This was accomplished by increasing the length of the two slots in the spring and decreasing the material thickness from 0.008" to 0.007". Alternate materials were also investigated but none proved superior to the 301 stainless now used. The combination of the increased clearance cuts in the frame and new trigger play springs have been 100% successful in five pistols. The number of rounds fired are:

2 pistols 20,000 rounds
1 pistol 15,000 rounds
1 pistol 10,000 rounds
1 pistol 5,000 rounds

[Tamara]

The following was represented by an advanced S&W collector as an internal memo from a S&W engineer to management. It discussed some of the issues being had by the FBI with their Model 1076, along with potential engineering changes. Note the mention of the special FBI spec trigger.

Didn’t the FBI also still teach some “get on the trigger as soon as the gun clears leather” 1930s holdover doctrine at the time?

I seem to recollect that the FBI’s methodology combined with that modified trigger to cause some bad juju.

[Daniel Watters]

Didn’t the FBI also still teach some “get on the trigger as soon as the gun clears leather” 1930s holdover doctrine at the time?

I seem to recollect that the FBI’s methodology combined with that modified trigger to cause some bad juju.

The FTU's "Prepping the Trigger" methodology was mentioned in Glock's GAO Bid Protest.

https://www.gao.gov/products/b-236614


The agency contends that the purpose of the double-action first shot/single-action subsequent shots requirement is to prevent the inadvertent discharge of the weapon. The FBI states that its agents are trained to keep their finger on the trigger when their handgun is drawn and that the relatively long and heavy trigger pull for the first shot provides a margin of safety to prevent the unintentional firing of the weapon. In this regard, the agency points out that all of its agents received extensive training on .38 caliber revolvers which have a consistently heavy and long trigger pull.

The protester argues that the requirement will not only not satisfy the agency's safety concerns but is itself inherently unsafe. In support of its arguments, Glock has provided us with an affidavit and resume of an independent firearms consultant. Glock's "expert witness" contends that the double-action/single-action nature of the pistol could result in the unintentional discharge of second and subsequent shots and that the heavy and long first trigger pull will result in slower and less accurate first shots. Finally, Glock contends that if the FBI were to train its agents to keep their finger off the trigger until they were ready to shoot, there would be no danger of inadvertent discharge with the continuous double- action design of its pistol. Glock argues that the FBI's finger-on-the- trigger training policy has been "generally discredited by instructors and progressive police agencies alike."

[Tamara]

This is the sort of shit that results from viewing the DA trigger as an evil that must be overcome in order to allow undertrained shooters to qualify rather than a feature that allows trained shooters to have a cushion against woobie-checking and a bit of a safety margin for threat management.