Ricochets in indoor ranges

[jmjames]

Yesterday I went to an indoor range that I've only been to once or twice before. As I was policing some of my brass, I found a bullet (not a whole cartridge, just the bullet) at my feet (not one of mine). Needless to say, I suddenly felt very uncomfortable. If it ended up at my feet, that means it came back in my general direction. When I raised this concern at the gun range, they told me, "well, that's why we require eye protection" and had this explanation about how the equipment is designed in a way that if a ricochet happens, the bullet doesn't return with enough force to do any real damage.

Is this REALLY normal? Is this REALLY safe? I have to say, every time I go to an indoor range, and I see the ceiling and the side walls dinged up and filled with holes, it really hammers home for me just how many bullets go in some really bizarre directions. Or am I just being a bit overly paranoid/concerned/whatever?

J.Ja

[Tamara]

Is this REALLY normal? Is this REALLY safe?

If the steel backstop is cratered, or if the round just hits oddly in the baffles someplace, it is entirely possible for a pistol bullet to come back at the firing line. It unlikely practically to the point of impossibility that it will have enough energy after coming back 25 yards to leave much of a bruise.

I hit myself in the lip with splashback from a cratered swinger last weekend, shooting from about ten yards. It drew blood from my lip. I cussed some and went cyclic with the rest of the mag on the target, then we moved the firing line back another three yards and took down the cratered swinger. Wear your eye pro.

[ToddG]

Getting frag back from steel is inevitable. Depending on the caliber, projectile, reflecting surface, and angle is can range anywhere from unnoticed to dangerous. One of the most common dangers I see when traveling is people willing to shoot on severely compromised steel.

Having said that, I shoot at an indoor range (50yd) multiple times per week. I help run a match every month that fires close to 2,000 rounds at the same backstop while we're 5-15yd away all night. The only "splash" we get is from shooting at steel targets. The backstop itself is outstanding at directing fragments away from shooters.

The projectile you found could easily have been something that deflected onto the ground anywhere on the range and then got pushed, kicked, or swept towards the firing line over time.

[Tamara]

Having said that, I shoot at an indoor range (50yd) multiple times per week. I help run a match every month that fires close to 2,000 rounds at the same backstop while we're 5-15yd away all night. The only "splash" we get is from shooting at steel targets. The backstop itself is outstanding at directing fragments away from shooters.

I am assuming that none of the KSTG shooters are uncorking wild rounds into the baffles overhead or at the bottom lip of the backstop where the lead trays are...

Trust me: It is possible, albeit extremely improbable, for a round to come back twenty-five yards to the line. Of course, it requires missing the backstop in the first place.


(Out of curiousity, 'kinda backstop they have there? The newer ground rubber ones are excellent for not allowing splashback, since they can't get cratered.)

[ToddG]

The original backstop design was a wet snail. Now it's just a dry snail, but rated for .50 BMG so we don't see much in the cratering department. Since almost all shots are at 50yd, that helps, too. The range does its best to prevent people from shooting steel core ammo at it excessively.

[Tamara]

...rated for .50 BMG so we don't see much in the cratering department.

Yeah, that's pretty sweet right there. It only takes one yayhoo sneaking their AR out onto a pistol-only range to ruin it for everybody else. :o

[DocGKR]

This week on an outdoor range, I got hit lightly in the head with a very slow moving .45 ACP ball round an officer had fired at his target spaced laterally 20 yds away from where I was standing--the round must have hit a hard object in the berm and deflected at an angle back to where I was standing. Weird stuff happens...

[BLR]

Weird stuff happens...

Yup. The vector form of Newtons 3rd is a fickle and complicated mistress.

[peterb]

Having rounds bounce back to the firing line was not unusual at the indoor bowling pin shoots I attended back when they were popular. Hard maple is not a great backstop.

[jetfire]

Tam and Todd touched on this already, but the backstop at an indoor range contributes a lot to whether or not projectiles can come back at you. I don't really like indoor ranges with steel backstops, but they're the most common.

[jmjames]

OK, it's nice to know that this isn't something to be worried about.

I am not sure what kind of backstop they have, but I did notice that the sound from my shots seemed to "linger" a bit. It could just be a lack of sound dampening material in there. The backstop was black, but it had some light spots on it.

That said, I think I am going to avoid this range in general anyways. There are a ton of little things about it that rub me wrong in terms of safety and employee attitude, and the indoor range I usually go to is functionally and policy equivalent.

J.Ja

[jetfire]

Indoor ranges are frequently hit and miss for serious shooters; because they're generally speaking open to the public a lot of them will have various "idiot policies" in place designed to keep the hoi polloi from wrecking the place with their Taurus Judges and whatnot. Unfortunately, some ranges think that means they can also have a lax attitude towards actual range safety.

[jmjames]

Indoor ranges are frequently hit and miss for serious shooters; because they're generally speaking open to the public a lot of them will have various "idiot policies" in place designed to keep the hoi polloi from wrecking the place with their Taurus Judges and whatnot. Unfortunately, some ranges think that means they can also have a lax attitude towards actual range safety.

I know what you mean about the rules at the indoor ranges. I basically can't practice any drills other than a press out to a single shot, and precision/trigger control stuff at any of the ranges around here. Honestly, it's gotten me so down that I stopped making the time to go for the most part. Other than a few quick rounds of skeet a few months ago at a birthday party, yesterday was the first time I pulled the trigger on a loaded gun since May. I've been using work as an excuse, but the truth is, going to the indoor ranges by me just has so little variety that it has been hard for me to stay on track and spend my training ammunition in a productive fashion. I was going on average once a week for a year, and it just burned (and bummed) me out.

At this particular range, they don't have ROs on the range itself, but a camera system to monitor. But from what I can tell, the monitors are at the range itself (separate building from the gun shop), and the gun shop side has no way of overseeing the range. Even then, I have concerns about the staff's attitude on safety. When I entered the gun shop to check out, a patron was examining gun and talking to the clerk. He had it pointed sideways, right at me as I entered, and was pulling the trigger over and over again while yammering to the clerk. The last time I was there, I found a live round in my lane. I gave it to the clerk and he just tossed it in the trash. This time I found another live round, and I really hope he didn't toss that into the trash too, especially since it was a .22. I may just be paranoid, but I don't stick live rounds into trash cans, centerfire or rimfire. It just does not strike me as a good idea.

At the range I usually go to, they also do the camera system, but the monitors are right in front of the clerks, and I've seen them shut down a lot of issues quickly and effectively. They keep a close eye on things and take it seriously.

J.Ja

[ACP230]

I got clipped in the upper lip by a bit of a .22 LR bullet I had just fired once.

The indoor range has steel baffles and I figure I hit one right on the edge, split the bullet and one piece came back.
Not a hard hit, just mussed up my 'stache. Still it made me appreciate hardened lenses in my glasses again.

Saw worse hits outdoors from bouncebacks at the old Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot. I felt a piece of plastic from a pin brush the side of my face once.

Found a few .45 bullets in the grass behind the bleachers a few times. One of the other shooters claimed the steel piece right below the pin tables was
the reason for bouncebacks there.

[TGS]

When walking around in the pits on a rifle range in the USMC, we used to get pegged with 5.56 projectiles (or remnants of) all the time. They would bounce off the dirt berm/backstop about 20 yards away. Once in a blue moon someone would catch a fragment in their face. I think it was 2009 when a marksmanship instructor at Quantico was struck on the firing line when a round from the next range landed that one in a million chance of not only bouncing sideways off the neighboring ranges berm, but also bounced up over the berm in-between the ranges, doing so with enough force that it made him a casualty. He was hospitalized for quite some time, IIRC.

So, yeah, bad stuff can happen.

ETA: those were outdoor ranges. Just noticed this thread was about indoor.

[Skold]

I used to shoot at a weekly IDPA shoot at the TWRA range, which has the rubber backstop. We were standing around talking behind the line while someone was shooting and somthing hit my arm hard, enough to break the skin and make me bleed. Now i am not saying it was bad, but it was enough to hurt. Everyone was lucky that it didn't hit someone in the face. So things can happen even with the rubber backstops....

[butler coach]

I have a 9 position indoor range for the high school rifle team that has a sand trap from the 1950’s. We clean and change the sand every 2 years so that is about 66,000 rounds, but still get a bounce back every once in a while and this is with 22 LR match ammo. We have never had anyone hurt, but when it does occur it’s a good time to talk about safety when it happens.