Support index finger on trigger guard

[GJM]

A few weeks ago, I injured my support hand wrist shooting too many rounds support hand only in the Glock 20. It has been getting better, but still hurts and especially so when I clamp with my support hand on a pistol.

This morning, I decided to try putting my support hand index finger on the trigger guard, which is more comfortable. I was feeling on the edge of having something and feeling tired, so I didn't have high hopes. Interestingly, immediately I found it easier to split with this position. Not sure why, perhaps because that position feels more relaxed. The big surprise, was how fast I could transition my open gun. The higher position gave me more leverage and I saw some PR level transitions on steel. Not sure what to think.

[JCN]

A few weeks ago, I injured my support hand wrist shooting too many rounds support hand only in the Glock 20. It has been getting better, but still hurts and especially so when I clamp with my support hand on a pistol.

This morning, I decided to try putting my support hand index finger on the trigger guard, which is more comfortable. I was feeling on the edge of having something and feeling tired, so I didn't have high hopes. Interestingly, immediately I found it easier to split with this position. Not sure why, perhaps because that position feels more relaxed. The big surprise, was how fast I could transition my open gun. The higher position gave me more leverage and I saw some PR level transitions on steel. Not sure what to think.

Sorry to hear about your wrist!

Maybe consider giving it a good rest now rather than turning it into a nagging injury (ask me how I know!).

Grauffel and Lena Miculek use the support finger forward so it’s a viable option.

But consider just resting the wrist!

[awp_101]

Just so I’m clear you’re running your index finger along the side of the trigger guard, NOT hooking it around the front?

[GJM]

Just so I’m clear you’re running your index finger along the side of the trigger guard, NOT hooking it around the front?

Just like Eric Grauffel is demoing

102600

[Clusterfrack]

I experimented with it, and didn't like it because it caused a left bias during the recoil. I think it requires a certain hand size or finger length that I do not have (S/M Mechanix gloves).

[GJM]

I experimented with it, and didn't like it because it caused a left bias during the recoil. I think it requires a certain hand size or finger length that I do not have (S/M Mechanix gloves).

I am the opposite -- long fingers and XL gloves. Previously, I had not really considered this grip, but the performance today was so interesting, I plan to experiment more with it. Especially with a heavy pistol like my Open gun, the high finger provides tremendous leverage to transition quickly. I also like how I can pull straight back against the frame of the gun instead of onto my strong hand.

[serialsolver]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12153-Support-index-finger-going-to-front-of-Glock-trigger-guard

My response at the end of this old thread is still relevant today.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[flyrodr]

I experimented with it, and didn't like it because it caused a left bias during the recoil. I think it requires a certain hand size or finger length that I do not have (S/M Mechanix gloves).

Chuckled at the timing of this response (shortly after I had posted about a squared trigger guard in the Alchemy thread in Semi-Autos). I ordered a Swenson back in the early '70s, initially w/o the squared trigger guard. A short time later, I contacted Mr. Swenson and asked him to add the squared trigger guard. To be honest, I changed my mind because the squared guard was "the thing to have". When the gun finally arrived, it turned out my stubby finger just wouldn't reach the front of the trigger guard sufficiently to be of any benefit.

[gringop]

I do the same thing since I switched to using my right hand as the primary due to arthritis issues. I'm nowhere near the level of performance I had when I was healthy and shooting lefty.

Compared to the normal old "wrist canted forward" support grip, I'd say I improved 50% using the support hand forefinger on the trigger guard.

Gring(old)p

[Lon]

I learned to shoot with my finger up there. Back in ‘00 I went to a class at Storm Mountain and they broke me of that. Saw an immediate improvement, especially in my USPSA scores.

IIRC, Jerry “the Burner” Barnhart used that grip back when he was whipping everybody’s ass at USPSA.

Edit: Ah, the good old days.
102616

[GJM]

The neat thing, is with a timer and a few target arrays it is quite easy to sort out whether any particular tweak is or is not working for you.

[CraigS]

We started shooting about 25 yrs ago. Web hadn't started much then so all I had was magazines to read. We happened to go from a Ruger full size something to Beretta 92. That squared trigger guard w/ checkering was there so I used it. Seemed pretty obvious to me that it helped control muzzle rise. I don't remember when but pretty much everything I came across regarding grip said front of the guard wasn't a good technique so I quit using it. I don't know though. There are a he11 of a lot of pistols made w/ a square guard. I believe Glock is probably the most popular pistol being made now and they all have a square guard. So there must be something to it. GJM, I really look forward to your testing.

[Wondering Beard]

Back in the late nineties or early oughts, I had my first experience with a full auto G17 (modified back plate) in South America. Index finger on the trigger guard made the gun mostly controllable.

[camel]

If you have the fingers and grip for it I can see it as an asset in recoil management. Me I cannot. A 6’4 friend with catcher mitt for hands who has a problem just getting meat away from the slide on an auto. Will only shoot square trigger guard’s For his own reasons.

[HeavyDuty]

I think I recently saw something by Mas about this grip on a G26. I’ll admit I haven't shot this way in decades.

[JCN]

I think I recently saw something by Mas about this grip on a G26. I’ll admit I haven't shot this way in decades.

I think Glock26 the guy who made GM with a Glock 26 shot that way with that gun.

[DMCutter]

I used to shoot that way, too, way back when, but quit after some pundit said it was bad. Probably about the time I started with the center axis relock...:rolleyes:

[JHC]

I used to shoot that way, too, way back when, but quit after some pundit said it was bad. Probably about the time I started with the center axis relock...:rolleyes:

I wonder if the RDS might not give center axis relock a new life.

[awp_101]

I wonder if the RDS might not give center axis relock a new life.
I thought John Wick had already done that? :confused:

[GJM]

I watched Lena Miculek's video, where she describes wrapping two fingers around the trigger guard. The benefit she describes is better recoil control. Here is her video:


https://youtu.be/vD4AIWIXiBI

I tried to find something from Eric Grauffel describing his method, but haven't so far.

I hit the range today and was very curious what I would learn. Was it trick if the day or something else. What I saw was faster splitting but especially fast and precise transitions. It seems like the high finger position with my support hand index finger gives me more leverage and better transition control/speed with the pistol. I am going to keep messing with it for a while.

[awp_101]

I watched Lena Miculek's video, where she describes wrapping two fingers around the trigger guard. The benefit she describes is better recoil control. Here is her video:


https://youtu.be/vD4AIWIXiBI
As someone with compromised grip strength, that's an interesting video. I have a range trip planned for Sunday and I believe I'll have to experiment.

[DDTSGM]

I came away from a Vogel class with that grip. It worked better for me for me with G-17 size pistols, probably best with my M&P 2.0. Not as well with slimmer pistols. Wit5h the 'wide bodies' the grip quickly felt natural, with narrower frames it always felt like I was 'styling'. Problem was that from the LE standpoint that darned WML kinda through a kink in the technique.

I always kind of used a rifle analogy when I thought about it - spreading my grip on the pistol and adding stability in the process.

One thing I noticed was that using a standard grip my 'lazy' shots generally go a little high right (left hander) not nearly as much with the support hand forward grip.

I still sucked, just not as bad.

[GJM]

I came away from a Vogel class with that grip. It worked better for me for me with G-17 size pistols, probably best with my M&P 2.0. Not as well with slimmer pistols. Wit5h the 'wide bodies' the grip quickly felt natural, with narrower frames it always felt like I was 'styling'. Problem was that from the LE standpoint that darned WML kinda through a kink in the technique.

I always kind of used a rifle analogy when I thought about it - spreading my grip on the pistol and adding stability in the process.

One thing I noticed was that using a standard grip my 'lazy' shots generally go a little high right (left hander) not nearly as much with the support hand forward grip.

I still sucked, just not as bad.

Unless something changed, or I am remembering incorrect, Vogel doesn't hook the trigger guard?

102693

[YVK]

I watched Lena Miculek's video, where she describes wrapping two fingers around the trigger guard. The benefit she describes is better recoil control.

We all know Grauffel's results but I was curious to learn how Lena did with her grip, at least on classifiers. I could not find anything.

[Bucky]

A lot of people shot that way in USPSA back when I started in 1992. It actually worked quite well for me, and my first real open gun even has a ledge to aid in this grip style.

Then there was a mass move away from this style.



IIRC, Jerry “the Burner” Barnhart used that grip back when he was whipping everybody’s ass at USPSA.


It should be noted that in Jerry’s instructional video series (which I still have on VHS, remember those?), he does recommend AGAINST using this style grip. He says he does it, because he’s just been doing that way for so long, etc.

Also, many people do this grip wrong. How many times have you seen someone shoot with the tip of their finger on the trigger guard, only to lift off under recoil. Jerry does show what he considers the “correct” way to do this grip, should you chose to do so.

Funny thing, the Grandmaster shooter that I took a class with, who insisted I move away from this technique, also told me to shoot with my head straight up, and not leaned in. While I adapted to the new grip,, the head position I had to keep. I would later realize I was left eye dominant, and that was why my head needed to be where it was.

Even though it’s been 25 years since I’ve used that grip, I just tried it, and it feels natural to me. I guess having shot that way the first 5 or so years still left a bit of muscle memory to it.

[UNM1136]

That grip was HUUUUGE in the 90s. Look at some of the trigger guards from custom houses, like Devel. The face of the trigger guard was insanely hooked. I think the texture on trigger guard on some guns is currently ornamental, but supported this concept.

I am a fan of the Ayoob Wedge Grip, myself, as I am a flincher and have always struggled with anticipation and low-left hits. Mas...

pat

[UNM1136]

Oops, double tap.

pat

[JHC]

I watched Lena Miculek's video, where she describes wrapping two fingers around the trigger guard. The benefit she describes is better recoil control. Here is her video:


https://youtu.be/vD4AIWIXiBI

I tried to find something from Eric Grauffel describing his method, but haven't so far.

I hit the range today and was very curious what I would learn. Was it trick if the day or something else. What I saw was faster splitting but especially fast and precise transitions. It seems like the high finger position with my support hand index finger gives me more leverage and better transition control/speed with the pistol. I am going to keep messing with it for a while.

This is quite an exciting thread. I've never given this method any looks ever before but will fool around with it also. It makes perfect sense for the leverage.

[Bio]

I'm no great shooter, but they physics of putting pressure on the trigger guard make sense to me. Putting pressure further forward on the pistol is putting space between two points of control. The further apart two points of control are on an object are, the easier it is to move that object precisely. The obvious example I can think of is bunting with a baseball bat. The hands move apart on the bat because that allows a batter to move it quickly in a precise and controlled way (compared to hitting for power).

Looked at another way, if the hands are close together on a baseball bat, small changes in the orientation of the hands relative to each other have large changes on the bat angle. If the hands are far apart, you have more leverage and control.

[JCN]

Bio
JHC
GJM

When I had experimented with it before it does improve leverage, but there is a little bit of asymmetry cost to it.

Think of it like partially along the way to the bladed stance of a long gun. There is a correction you need to mentally make when trying to transition to the left, you don’t have quite the symmetrical reach in the transition when it gets to the more extreme angles.

And also affects my shooting on the move mental map because of it.

It works well, but I like a mental map that is applicable to different guns and systems without adjustment. I would hate to be in a situation where I had a shooting mental map and then just by putting a weapon mounted light on the front, I could no longer use that map.

I also feel that having extra leverage from a thumb rest helps counteract some of the negatives of this technique (when used in conjunction, can pinch instead of push).

So for simplicity, I chose not to develop this further for my pistol shooting. It can be used to very good success, obviously.

[mmc45414]

I ordered a Swenson back in the early '70s, initially w/o the squared trigger guard. A short time later, I contacted Mr. Swenson and asked him to add the squared trigger guard. To be honest, I changed my mind because the squared guard was "the thing to have".
My friend that is a key mentor has two of them, and boy howdy I always wanted that. Back then (probably ~1979) I couldn't even afford to get checkering done on the trigger guard of my pistol, but it didn't cost anything to put my finger there. Since going to TDI in 2006 I sorta tried to break that habit but seems like as soon as the timer goes off that is where my finger lands. Maybe/probably I will never break the habit, maybe/probably I will just quit trying, maybe/probably there are other gains to be had elsewhere.

[Bio]

Bio
JHC
GJM

It works well, but I like a mental map that is applicable to different guns and systems without adjustment. I would hate to be in a situation where I had a shooting mental map and then just by putting a weapon mounted light on the front, I could no longer use that map.



Quite a while before I saw this thread. I 3D printed a thingamajig that attached to the surefire on the end of my Glock using hose clamps. It had a little nub that basically acted like the squared off trigger guard. It was not totally vertical, nor very grip-like, but I'm not a lawyer, and any benefit didn't seem worth getting into a legal gray area. It also wasn't holsterable, defeating much of the purpose of a pistol.

[DMCutter]

I spent a little time dry firing my USPC9 today with 2 fingers on the front of the trigger guard à la Lena M. The first thing that was immediately evident to me is that there's plenty of room for my index finger but my middle finger is perched uncomfortably on the nub at the bottom of the guard, and I think it will really get hammered during live fire. The other thing is that my left rotator cuff is irreparably torn and the subtle difference in the angle and extension of my left arm required to get my hand higher on the grip causes me some degree of additional discomfort. I'll try it with an MR920 when I get back home to see if that's any different, but I'm thinking I'll keep my current grip.

[DDTSGM]

Unless something changed, or I am remembering incorrect, Vogel doesn't hook the trigger guard?

102693

No, I don't believe he actually does - he gets right up on it, though.

My hands may be a little bit bigger - darn sure not stronger - when I built the grip like he described my finger was naturally on the front of the trigger guard. Contact is at the bottom joint with M&P2.0/P320 and middle joint with G21 and G17. If I curled the finger to 'hook' it touches my trigger finger, so I don't do that. It is probably more accurate to say I lay or curl my finger.

I thought Vogel did as good a job monitoring and coaching as one person could, he certainly watched me and talked to me several times tweaking something or another, but never indicated my finger placement was wrong.

[awp_101]

As someone with compromised grip strength, that's an interesting video. I have a range trip planned for Sunday and I believe I'll have to experiment.
So I did get to the range today and tried this out. I think I learned more about what handguns it doesn't work with than whether or not it can help me. Round trigger guard pistols, revolvers and a 1911 with a standard trigger guard are a no go for this method which really isn't a surprise.

The only pistol I had where I could actually try this was my Volquartsen/Tandemkross 22/45. I shot a 5 round warm up at 10 yards with my normal 2 hand hold, a 10 round group with my support hand index finger hooked on the trigger guard and still gripping as tightly as I could with my support hand, then another 5 round group with my normal hold. The 10 round group was certainly tighter but everything was right/high right compared to my usual hold.

I don't know that these targets mean much but here they are.

First 5 shots of the day, regular 2 hand hold, offhand 10 yards
102736

10 with the trigger guard hooked (this is a better representation of what the pistol can do but everything is further right than normal)
102737

Back to regular offhand hold, 5 rounds with a called flyer.
102738

[YVK]

GJM I did a tiny bit of shooting with this grip today. So little that I didn't think it was worth posting. The gun felt less secure in my hand but the timer said things weren't too bad. Not enough to make any far reaching conclusions, let alone sny changes, but it did generate something that I will need to test later.

[cheby]

I used to shoot like this for a quite a while. I found it increased inconsistency in my grip especially with major loads and fast shooting. I am sure it can be done of course but I actually worked to get rid of that grip. It took a while. BTW, I also had all kinds of injuries and severe tendinitis while shooting with my finger on the trigger guard. I have none right now even though I shoot major loads almost exclusively. I believe it is because I changed my grip. Several high profile shooters told me they had the same experience. For the reference - I don’t have large hands. Perhaps that’s a factor.

[Bucky]

So I did get to the range today and tried this out. I think I learned more about what handguns it doesn't work with than whether or not it can help me. Round trigger guard pistols, revolvers and a 1911 with a standard trigger guard are a no go for this method which really isn't a surprise


Back in the day I used this with my 1911 and later, a first gen Caspisn which had a round trigger guard. The latter had a ledge, which helped.

[Tensaw]

This grip seems like it would be particularly beneficial on guns like the PDP that tend to have more muzzle flip than recoil. In working with this grip dry over the last few days, I am able to find the dot much. more consistently on my 509T/PDP set-up (I'm relatively new to the dot and still learning). I think perhaps that the pistol is indexing for me more consistently with the trigger guard hooked - maybe. If it matters, I tend to wear XL gloves and my finger is catching the trigger guard with the middle portion/section of the finger. I like how far forward and high this allows me to get on the gun. Need some live fire to see how things actually work for me. SoonTM.

ETA: Despite working pretty diligently at it, I've never been completely happy with where my support hand index finger rides when using a "traditional" firing grip. If I place it where I get max traction/grip, it tends to interfere with my trigger finger. If I get it out of the way of the trigger finger, I lose a bit of bite with the support hand. Hooking around the trigger guard makes all that a non-issue and, if the finger will ride there without slipping off, should help with muzzle rise. (Yeah, need sone live boolits to see.)

[CraigS]

I was really thinking about going back and trying this but a quick survey of our pistols makes it a non-starter. We primarily shoot Beretta 92s. My main idpa 92 has a round guard and my backup/nightmatch 92 has a light/laser. My wife's match 92 would work but I am looking into lights to get the weight up. My carry M&Pc has a round guard. My wife's carry Glock 19 would work but....so a different grip for one or two pistols I don't think is a good idea.

[GJM]

I continue to shoot this way, and am liking it. One thing I can say for sure, is it has helped my support hand wrist to rehab!

[GJM]

102965

[DMCutter]

I finally got to the range today to try this out. I was using the support hand index finger only, didn't try two fingers. Not surprisingly, my finger didn't stay on the trigger guard of my 365 during recoil. I must have been doing something wrong, though, because it wouldn't stay put on my MR918 or my USPC9, both of which look to be purpose built for hosting a finger. I didn't find any benefit to it with respect to not losing the dot during recoil and I had to reposition my finger after every shot. I didn't notice any of the shoulder related issues I felt during dry firing, even after pounding shoulders in the gym last nigh. Two fingers might work better or maybe I just need to bear down more with that finger, or maybe I just need to maintain my normal grip. Separate but unrelated, I didn't see any evidence of first round fliers with hand cycled rounds with any of those guns at 15 yards.

[GJM]

I finally got to the range today to try this out. I was using the support hand index finger only, didn't try two fingers. Not surprisingly, my finger didn't stay on the trigger guard of my 365 during recoil. I must have been doing something wrong, though, because it wouldn't stay put on my MR918 or my USPC9, both of which look to be purpose built for hosting a finger. I didn't find any benefit to it with respect to not losing the dot during recoil and I had to reposition my finger after every shot. I didn't notice any of the shoulder related issues I felt during dry firing, even after pounding shoulders in the gym last nigh. Two fingers might work better or maybe I just need to bear down more with that finger, or maybe I just need to maintain my normal grip. Separate but unrelated, I didn't see any evidence of first round fliers with hand cycled rounds with any of those guns at 15 yards.

Obviously, this technique isn't one that everyone will like. Something I noticed, especially on smaller than full frame pistols, is the finger on the trigger guard allows me to get all or most of my support hand onto smaller frame pistols, that otherwise would only allow a few fingers of support hand.

[Disciple]

Discussion continues here https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?56860-The-grip-Grauffel