Airweight Excellence - K Frame Model 12

[42Willys]

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This is one of my favorite rotators, a S&W Model 12-2, round butt, 2 inch barrel. I added a BK grip adapter and carry this revolver frequently with Winchester Silvertip 110 grain .38s kindly provided by a forum member (that load is unobtainable after covid except on the secondary market). The holster is an ETW IWB rig that surprised me with its versatility. Slipping the holster at 3:30 is comfortable for all day carry and easy to conceal. I have a leather belt slide OWB holster that doesn't get any use because the ETW is so useful. I usually carry the HKS speedloader and Bianchi speedstrip in front trousers pocket or jacket pocket.

The trigger is a superb vintage K frame trigger. Loaded weight is 21.54 ounces. After long experience with an Airweight J Frame, I was surprised that stout loads were not that much easier to shoot in the Model 12 compared to the J frame, what with the Model 12's larger grip and additional weight. Norma 158 grain jacketed cartridges are no fun. PMC 130 grain jacketed cartridges are pleasant to shoot, and 125 grain lead reloads are fun as well. I will be working on a light 148 grain lead wadcutter practice load. Winchester Silvertips are accurate and have acceptable recoil impulse.

The aluminum frame is less to worry about rust wise, thankfully, but the blued barrel and cylinder are a concern long term. I don't think I've ever read a bad review of a Model 12, and I get why, it is a superb carry gun.

I would not give it to a novice to be their only handgun, mainly because factory wadcutters are now hard to find and expensive when available, and most novices are not going to go to lengths to find appropriate practice ammo they can afford to shoot and they actually want to shoot. They'll be lucky just to get .38 special instead of .380 acp. I'd steer a novice towards something else.

[Totem Polar]

The only gun that I truly, deeply regret letting go.

[42Willys]

I’ll try not to make that mistake!

[Moped]

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T I was surprised that stout loads were not that much easier to shoot in the Model 12 compared to the J frame, what with the Model 12's larger grip and additional weight. Norma 158 grain jacketed cartridges are no fun. PMC 130 grain jacketed cartridges are pleasant to shoot, and 125 grain lead reloads are fun as well. I will be working on a light 148 grain lead wadcutter practice load. Winchester Silvertips are accurate and have acceptable recoil impulse.


So are you shooting +P loads through your Mdl 12? I'd read that was a big no no, with them.

[fatdog]

So are you shooting +P loads through your Mdl 12? I'd read that was a big no no, with them.

I do and have run +P in mine for 25+ years without incident. Any practice is standard pressure stuff with all my revolvers, but I own a half dozen M12's, all have seen at least a few hundred rounds of +P factory ammo, and none have cracked the frame at the forcing cone like the internet has declared will happen on the first cylinder. A guy over at S&W Wesson forum who goes by Osprey ran a 1000 round +P ammo test through one of his M12's and documented it as he went, with no damage.

I became convinced by my old gunsmith, who truly knew his revolver stuff, that most of the alloy frame cracking in the pre-scandium airweights happens because there was too much torque put on the barrel at the factory when it was installed instead of timing it by removing metal from the frame like you are supposed to, because S&W refused to do that part of the process on those alloy frames.

They just kept spinning it in upon installation until the sight trued up without regard to how much torque that took. The allow frames allowed that because it did not forcibly stop the turn as soon as the steel would have, requiring that hand trimming to keep turning it.

I believe if your M12 is going to crack the frame, it will do so at some point with or without the +P rounds, just by shooting it a lot if it was one with too much torque.

The pressure delta for the .38 special +P ammo loaded by the factory is just not that dramatically greater. It might stretch the frame of an older J frame airweight to the point the cylinder needs shimming but I have never heard of that phenomenon on a M12 which has a much thicker and wider top strap.

I lost a 042 and its successor the 442 (no dash) both to frame cracking at the forcing cone years ago, and neither of them had ever seen a single +P round.

[42Willys]

So are you shooting +P loads through your Mdl 12? I'd read that was a big no no, with them.

No these are standard pressure loads according to the factory packaging. Norma’s 158 grain FMJ load feels pretty stout in revolver under 30 ounces but doesn’t appear to be a +P load.

My reloads are all standard pressure so far as I can tell. I need to get a chrono….

[42Willys]

I do and have run +P in mine for 25+ years without incident. Any practice is standard pressure stuff with all my revolvers, but I own a half dozen M12's, all have seen at least a few hundred rounds of +P factory ammo, and none have cracked the frame at the forcing cone like the internet has declared will happen on the first cylinder. A guy over at S&W Wesson forum who goes by Osprey ran a 1000 round +P ammo test through one of his M12's and documented it as he went, with no damage.

I became convinced by my old gunsmith, who truly knew his revolver stuff, that most of the alloy frame cracking in the pre-scandium airweights happens because there was too much torque put on the barrel at the factory when it was installed instead of timing it by removing metal from the frame like you are supposed to, because S&W refused to do that part of the process on those alloy frames.

They just kept spinning it in upon installation until the sight trued up without regard to how much torque that took. The allow frames allowed that because it did not forcibly stop the turn as soon as the steel would have, requiring that hand trimming to keep turning it.

I believe if your M12 is going to crack the frame, it will do so at some point with or without the +P rounds, just by shooting it a lot if it was one with too much torque.

The pressure delta for the .38 special +P ammo loaded by the factory is just not that dramatically greater. It might stretch the frame of an older J frame airweight to the point the cylinder needs shimming but I have never heard of that phenomenon on a M12 which has a much thicker and wider top strap.

I lost a 042 and its successor the 442 (no dash) both to frame cracking at the forcing cone years ago, and neither of them had ever seen a single +P round.

That’s some great data. Thank you.

[fatdog]

Test that "Osprey" on the S&W forum conducted on the M12 and +P ammo, 1K rounds (http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/79395-p-through-model-12-test-done.html?79395=#post766307)

[Bruce Cartwright]

42Willys:

That is a very nice revolver and a great post. If the recoil is bothersome, you may want to look for an old set of Pachmayr Compact Presentation stocks that cover the back strap of the frame. Pachmayr made a bunch of those type stocks for S&W round butt K frame revolvers, and they can be found on Ebay etc. They may even be in production, but I am not sure. The Pachmayrs that cover the back strap give a great grip and tend to soften recoil to some extent. Whenever I want to shoot heavy loads in revolvers, I usually use a set of Pachmayr stocks that cover the back strap to help dampen recoil a bit. Since you are carrying your Model 12 in a belt holster the small increase in size shouldn't be a problem in terms of concealment.

Smith and Wesson should consider remaking the Model 12 that is +P rated with a 2 or 3 inch barrel length option (and no internal lock). I have asked S&W to do that, as has Wayne Dobbs. I think they would sell well.

Thanks for a great post.

Bruce

[42Willys]

42Willys:

That is a very nice revolver and a great post. If the recoil is bothersome, you may want to look for an old set of Pachmayr Compact Presentation stocks that cover the back strap of the frame. Pachmayr made a bunch of those type stocks for S&W round butt K frame revolvers, and they can be found on Ebay etc. They may even be in production, but I am not sure. The Pachmayrs that cover the back strap give a great grip and tend to soften recoil to some extent. Whenever I want to shoot heavy loads in revolvers, I usually use a set of Pachmayr stocks that cover the back strap to help dampen recoil a bit. Since you are carrying your Model 12 in a belt holster the small increase in size shouldn't be a problem in terms of concealment.

Smith and Wesson should consider remaking the Model 12 that is +P rated with a 2 or 3 inch barrel length option (and no internal lock). I have asked S&W to do that, as has Wayne Dobbs. I think they would sell well.

Thanks for a great post.

Bruce

Bruce,

Thank you my friend. I do have a set of Pachmayr compacts on another round butt rotator and they are great. The thing holding me back on the Model 12 is the aesthetic - but function over form I suppose - if it makes shooting heavier loads more tolerable then it’s probably worth it. I did start loading a 158 grain LSWC round that becoming a favorite in all my steel frame rotators and maybe it would be more fun in the 12 with some Pachmayrs…..

I agree a new S&W Airweight K frame would be tops, in 2 and 3 inch tube configurations preferably!

[MolonLabe416]

I have one a the Gunsite Gunsmithy as we speak. Action job, bob the hammer, and convert to DAO.

[03RN]

Nice rig.

I think the 315 NG needs to be put back into production.

[Stephanie B]

Nice rig.

I think the 315 NG needs to be put back into production.

Has anyone seen any indication that S&W is paying attention? I know that the common belief is that there's no interest in revolvers anymore, but the guys down the road from them have sold over a quarter-million Pythons. They still seem to be selling them as fast as they go out the door and that's nothing to sneeze at.

[42Willys]

The Night Guard would be swell to see back in production.

[Stephanie B]

Nice rig.

I think the 315 NG needs to be put back into production.

Has anyone seen any indication that S&W is paying attention? I know that the common belief is that there's no interest in revolvers anymore, but the guys down the road from them have sold over a quarter-million Pythons. They still seem to be selling them as fast as they go out the door and that's nothing to sneeze at.

And then there are the guys south of the Equator, who keep coming out with new models and whose sales may only be slightly hampered by their long-standing reputation for quality and service.

[Totem Polar]

Has anyone seen any indication that S&W is paying attention? I know that the common belief is that there's no interest in revolvers anymore, but the guys down the road from them have sold over a quarter-million Pythons. They still seem to be selling them as fast as they go out the door and that's nothing to sneeze at.

And then there are the guys south of the Equator, who keep coming out with new models and whose sales may only be slightly hampered by their long-standing reputation for quality and service.

Let’s look to the Bull for the first modern airweight K size. I mean, so long as we are foolish enough to hold our collective breath.

[Bruce Cartwright]

I have one a the Gunsite Gunsmithy as we speak. Action job, bob the hammer, and convert to DAO.

MolonLabe416:
When you get that gun back, it would be great if you did a post about it. I am hearing good things about the Gunsmithy.


Has anyone seen any indication that S&W is paying attention? I know that the common belief is that there's no interest in revolvers anymore, but the guys down the road from them have sold over a quarter-million Pythons. They still seem to be selling them as fast as they go out the door and that's nothing to sneeze at.

Stephanie B:

I doubt it. I suspect that S&W is selling all the plastic guns they can make because that is probably where the greatest profit is. That said, I cannot imagine a company that would ignore a rival firm making a quarter million revolvers (except for Colt in the old days when they ignored the 1911 market). We'll see.

Bruce

[Stephanie B]

I cannot imagine a company that would ignore a rival firm making a quarter million revolvers (except for Colt in the old days when they ignored the 1911 market). We'll see.

As we know, Bruce, there probably have been business school theses written about how how screwed up the management of Colt has been since long before any of us were sucking down air.

[Coal Train]

As we know, Bruce, there probably have been business school theses written about how how screwed up the management of Colt has been since long before any of us were sucking down air.
Terrible business practices go back to their founding. It is a Core Value and probably in their Mission Statement!

[rainman]

42Willys:

Smith and Wesson should consider remaking the Model 12 that is +P rated with a 2 or 3 inch barrel length option (and no internal lock). I have asked S&W to do that, as has Wayne Dobbs. I think they would sell well.

Thanks for a great post.

Bruce

42 Willys; +1 on "thanks for the great post", and congrats on the outstanding piece. Thanks also to Bruce and Wayne for lobbying S&W to make more of these.

I think a new M12 would be exceptionally hot with the 2.5" barrel seen on the M10-8 that Southnarc recently acquired...
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?54418-2-5-quot-Model-10-8

One can dream, eh?


-Rainman

[TC215]

Nice rig.

I think the 315 NG needs to be put back into production.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/969404500


I bought a 386NG new in 2009 and, like an idiot, sold it about 9 years ago.

My father-in-law has a 329NG and some guy randomly offered him $2k for it earlier this week.

[42Willys]

42 Willys; +1 on "thanks for the great post", and congrats on the outstanding piece. Thanks also to Bruce and Wayne for lobbying S&W to make more of these.

I think a new M12 would be exceptionally hot with the 2.5" barrel seen on the M10-8 that Southnarc recently acquired...
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?54418-2-5-quot-Model-10-8

One can dream, eh?


-Rainman

Rainmain,

Thank you - and that Smith Model 10-8 is a fine piece of collecting for SouthNarc and if S&W wants to put out an Airweight K frame of any length barrel I am in!

[fatdog]

I know Southnarc picked up a 12-2 2" years ago, but I hear the accuracy is crap....

[Bruce Cartwright]

42 Willys; +1 on "thanks for the great post", and congrats on the outstanding piece. Thanks also to Bruce and Wayne for lobbying S&W to make more of these.

I think a new M12 would be exceptionally hot with the 2.5" barrel seen on the M10-8 that Southnarc recently acquired...
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?54418-2-5-quot-Model-10-8

One can dream, eh?


-Rainman

Rainman:

At one point during my career, I had access to a S&W Model 10-8 with a 2.5-inch heavy barrel. I loved the gun, but I discovered that when I attempted to do a single hand reload, like a disabled officer might have to do, the 2.5-inch barrel did not stabilize well when inserted behind my belt. A S&W Model 13 with a 3-inch-long barrel would. A typical S&W revolver with a 4-inch-long barrel is even better in that regard. I would not have thought that one half an inch of barrel length would matter but it does.

The S&W Model 10-8s with 2.5-inch barrels were produced by S&W at the request of the Bureau. I suspect that they were requested for testing, although some were issued. After those guns were tested, the Bureau adopted the S&W Model 13 (same fixed sight K frame but in 357 Magnum) with a 3-inch barrel. Another reason for the adoption of the 3-inch barrel on the Model 13s was that the longer ejector rod tended to allow fired cartridges to be more effectively ejected than the short version on the Model 10-8 with 2.5-inch barrel.

None of which detracts from the incredibly cool gun that Southnarc acquired. I can tell you those guns shoot like a house afire...

Bruce

[rainman]

Bruce-

Many thanks for sharing that interesting history and your experience, and for your contributions to this forum.


-Rainman

[Bruce Cartwright]

Bruce-

Many thanks for sharing that interesting history and your experience, and for your contributions to this forum.


-Rainman

Rainman:

Thanks for the kind words!

Bruce

[Duelist]

I went to the LGS today to look at lockboxes for temporary use in vehicles.

I made a deposit on a 2” 12-2 RB with just a bit of frame finish wear, that looks like it was shot about one box full and then carried a lot.

I will probably have to sort my safe out and sell something, but now I at least know what I’m getting for Christmas. :D

[Polecat]

Wish they would bring one out configured like an M&P 340, with deep U rear, maybe ameriglo front, bobbed, DAO, PC action!

[42Willys]

Wish they would bring one out configured like an M&P 340, with deep U rear, maybe ameriglo front, bobbed, DAO, PC action!

That would be swell!

[MolonLabe416]

112563

My 13 as worked over by Fink’s (Gunsite Gunsmithy).

Duty action job
Bobed hammer
DAO
Smoothed and rounded trigger
Thinned the stocks to fit the narrow frame

I elected not to refinish because I sometimes like that 50 mission crush look.

They’ve done five revolvers for me and all are exceptional.

[mikey357]

112563

My 13 as worked over by Fink’s (Gunsite Gunsmithy).

Duty action job
Bobed hammer
DAO
Smoothed and rounded trigger
Thinned the stocks to fit the narrow frame

I elected not to refinish because I sometimes like that 50 mission crush look.

They’ve done five revolvers for me and all are exceptional.

Nice Wheelie, nice "Work"--But is it a Model 12 or a Model 13? :)

[42Willys]

Looks like a 12 Mikey, the barrel and cylinder have that worn steel blueing but the frame maintains the black anodizing of the aluminum frame.

[mikey357]

Looks like a 12 Mikey, the barrel and cylinder have that worn steel blueing but the frame maintains the black anodizing of the aluminum frame.

...kinda' what I thought, too--That nice, "Glossy Black" Anodizing that Gunmakers used to give us...

[MolonLabe416]

Looks like a 12 Mikey, the barrel and cylinder have that worn steel blueing but the frame maintains the black anodizing of the aluminum frame.

Duh, it’s a 12.

[MolonLabe416]

Nice Wheelie, nice "Work"--But is it a Model 12 or a Model 13? :)

It’s a 12. Fat fingered the post.

[MolonLabe416]

It’s a 12. I fat fingered the post.

[Poconnor]

My name finally came up on Craig Spegel’s List from 2017. I bought two beautiful K Frame m12 narrow frame boot grips in walnut. They feel great.
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I really wish the model 12 would receive a modern model 642UC treatmeant.

[Poconnor]

FYI- the model 12 frame cracking is a real thing. I picked up a model 12 with a cracked frame for parts at a LGS for $100. Currently it is my Dry fire revolver.
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[BarryinIN]

118195

I’ve become addicted to Model 12s. Here is what I have now, three 12s and a Pre-12.

FWIW, I weighed them all a few days ago. Empty weights:
12-2 4” RB with grip adapter 21.06 oz
12-1 2” SB w/o grip adapter 19.68
12-2 2” RB with grip adapter 19.37
Pre-12 2” RB (alum cylinder) 14.99

For comparison,
442 with Eagle Secret Svc grips 14.43 oz

And the steel S&W I have that’s closest to the 12s:
15-3 2” SB with grip adapter 30.72 oz

[42Willys]

118195

I’ve become addicted to Model 12s. Here is what I have now, three 12s and a Pre-12.

FWIW, I weighed them all a few days ago. Empty weights:
12-2 4” RB with grip adapter 21.06 oz
12-1 2” SB w/o grip adapter 19.68
12-2 2” RB with grip adapter 19.37
Pre-12 2” RB (alum cylinder) 14.99

For comparison,
442 with Eagle Secret Svc grips 14.43 oz

And the steel S&W I have that’s closest to the 12s:
15-3 2” SB with grip adapter 30.72 oz

Nice set of classic Smiths!

[Buckeye63]

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Model 12 , flat latch

[BarryinIN]

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Model 12 , flat latch

That looks like a nice one.

[Willard]

42Willys:
Smith and Wesson should consider remaking the Model 12 that is +P rated with a 2 or 3 inch barrel length option (and no internal lock). I have asked S&W to do that, as has Wayne Dobbs. I think they would sell well.


I truly hope they listen.

[Willard]

If someone were to try & source one is there a latch style or other indicator on which were least likely to crack?

[fatdog]

If someone were to try & source one is there a latch style or other indicator on which were least likely to crack?

My observations from the random cracking I personally know about and a few things that have been said about the assembly of these over at the blue forum and other places, including my late gunsmith who was S&W factory trained back in the 70's when he was the armorer for a very large police agency. It is all about how hard the barrel got torqued in at the factory, no matter what generation.

Instead of filing on the frame to get a top dead stop zero for the sights within a certain torque spec, best I can tell the factory assembly procedure for the aluminum frames (including the early alloy J frames) when these were all made was to simply keep applying torque until it stopped at that position that centered the sights and accept a wide range of pressure put on the frame. In the process they compressed those aluminum frames quite a bit and saved the time of stopping to file in order to time up the barrel position like you have no choice to on the steel frames.

If yours got torqued too tightly, it is going to crack at some point, +P ammo or standard pressure, it does not matter, it is destined for the crack in that area just around the forcing cone where the threads under so much pressure are. There are reports of cracking on pre-M12 "airweight", the aircrew M13's (even after steel cylinders), and all the generations through 12-3. Never heard much about the 12-4 and its larger frame, maybe because so few were made.

I had a pre-M12 airweight flat latch that took at least 2K rounds without a problem before I sold it to a collector who valued it more for that purpose than I did as a shooter. I have been very lucky by my count with my 12-2's and 12-3's in that none have had any sort of problems. That could change next range trip.

My simple answer would be no way to know if one is destined for a cracked frame. Nature of owning the model 12 as a shooter.

I am hoping that some day DB and BrYan convince their friends at S&W to bring back a 6 shot K frame in a +P rated alloy frame with a 2 piece barrel (which would eliminate the source of the torque problem) format. I am convinced the market is there and not just us enthusiasts.

[Totem Polar]

Great post fatdog

[SWAT Lt.]

If someone were to try & source one is there a latch style or other indicator on which were least likely to crack?

Not really. I'd want to inspect any Model 12 before purchase, especially the area of the frame under where the barrel screws in. The frame crack, as in post 38, can be found on any Model 12 but I've personally seen more on guns with non-pinned barrels than those pinned.

[revolvergeek]

FYI- the model 12 frame cracking is a real thing. I picked up a model 12 with a cracked frame for parts at a LGS for $100. Currently it is my Dry fire revolver.
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I bought a used Model 12 from Centerfire Systems (well, three actually...) One of them was a 2" Nickel gun that must have had something evil dripped onto it at some point because it had a couple serious pits on the frame.

https://i.imgur.com/XAEePR3l.jpg

Maybe some of that evil got down in the barrel threads around the forcing cone, or maybe it had just been living on borrowed time, because it cracked on me on my first range trip. Standard pressure LSW and DEWC reloads. Nothing exotic. Several of us had looked it over well when it first arrived and the crack was not there before I shot it. I don't know when it happened during shooting. I just noticed it when I was cleaning it back at my office.

https://i.imgur.com/8zAyb6Fl.jpeg

No trouble with my other 12s. I carry a 2" SB one a lot when I am just bumming around on the weekends.

[Willard]

My observations from the random cracking I personally know about and a few things that have been said about the assembly of these over at the blue forum and other places, including my late gunsmith who was S&W factory trained back in the 70's when he was the armorer for a very large police agency. It is all about how hard the barrel got torqued in at the factory, no matter what generation.

Instead of filing on the frame to get a top dead stop zero for the sights within a certain torque spec, best I can tell the factory assembly procedure for the aluminum frames (including the early alloy J frames) when these were all made was to simply keep applying torque until it stopped at that position that centered the sights and accept a wide range of pressure put on the frame. In the process they compressed those aluminum frames quite a bit and saved the time of stopping to file in order to time up the barrel position like you have no choice to on the steel frames.

If yours got torqued too tightly, it is going to crack at some point, +P ammo or standard pressure, it does not matter, it is destined for the crack in that area just around the forcing cone where the threads under so much pressure are. There are reports of cracking on pre-M12 "airweight", the aircrew M13's (even after steel cylinders), and all the generations through 12-3. Never heard much about the 12-4 and its larger frame, maybe because so few were made.

I had a pre-M12 airweight flat latch that took at least 2K rounds without a problem before I sold it to a collector who valued it more for that purpose than I did as a shooter. I have been very lucky by my count with my 12-2's and 12-3's in that none have had any sort of problems. That could change next range trip.

My simple answer would be no way to know if one is destined for a cracked frame. Nature of owning the model 12 as a shooter.

I am hoping that some day DB and BrYan convince their friends at S&W to bring back a 6 shot K frame in a +P rated alloy frame with a 2 piece barrel (which would eliminate the source of the torque problem) format. I am convinced the market is there and not just us enthusiasts.
Thanks for taking the time to post this. Very informative.