Vortex Defender CCW Optic

[HCM]

Stopped by my Local Gun Store this evening to pick up a repair and noticed a stack of a new Vortex Pistol Optic in the display case. Nothing on line about these other than two product pages on vendor sites.

It’s an open emitter metal body sight with a polymer “shock shield” similar to the CHPWS defender for the RMR. It uses the Shield RMS-C ( aka Holosun K / Romeo Zero) footprint. It has a taller window than most optics in this class reminiscent of the RMRCC. It’s available with either a 3 or 6 MOA dot. It uses a top loading CR1632 battery and has side mounted intensity buttons which can be locked out. Per the manual it has a 14 hour auto shut off (which can be disabled) and motion activation, though apparently disabling the auto shut off also disables the MOTAC.

It comes with an optic cover, battery and sight tool, a low picatinny rail mount, mounting screws for six different guns (SIG, Glock, S&W, Canik, SA Hellcat) and a 1 degree shim plate.

The window was clear, the dot was bright and crisp and the price was right ($249) so I grabbed one to mess with.

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[G19Fan]

Stopped by my Local Gun Store this evening to pick up a repair and noticed a stack of a new Vortex Pistol Optic in the display case. Nothing on line about these other than two product pages on vendor sites.

It’s an open emitter metal body sight with a polymer “shock shield” similar to the CHPWS defender for the RMR. It uses the Shield RMS-C ( aka Holosun K / Romeo Zero) footprint. It has a taller window than most optics in this class reminiscent of the RMRCC. It’s available with either a 3 or 6 MOA dot. It uses a top loading CR1632 battery and has side mounted intensity buttons which can be locked out. Per the manual it has a 14 hour auto shut off (which can be disabled) and motion activation, though apparently disabling the auto shut off also disables the MOTAC.

It comes with an optic cover, battery and sight tool, a low picatinny rail mount, mounting screws for six different guns (SIG, Glock, S&W, Canik, SA Hellcat) and a 1 degree shim plate.

The window was clear, the dot was bright and crisp and the price was right ($249) so I grabbed one to mess with.

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I like the front texture for oe handed manipulations

[MountainRaven]

I believe it is on the RMS footprint, not the RMSc footprint.

I'd be happy to be wrong, though.

ETA: Says it right on the box: RMS. Which is not the RMSc.

[HCM]

I believe it is on the RMS footprint, not the RMSc footprint.

I'd be happy to be wrong, though.

ETA: Says it right on the box: RMS. Which is not the RMSc.

It’s what ever is the same as the Holosun K and SIG Romeo Zero.

Brits don’t shoot so I don’t care what Shield calls their footprints.

Unsurprisingly it appears to be a Chinese made optics so “Holosun K” is more appropriate.

[MountainRaven]

It’s what ever is the same as the Holosun K and SIG Romeo Zero.

Brits don’t shoot so I don’t care what Shield calls their footprints.

Unsurprisingly it appears to be a Chinese made optics so “Holosun K” is more appropriate.

It looks like the RMS (https://www.optics-trade.eu/blog/shield-rms-footprint/) and RMSc (https://www.optics-trade.eu/blog/shield-rmsc-footprint/) are mostly the same footprint but not entirely identical.

Still seems a curious choice for Vortex to have either chosen the RMS rather than the RMSc or to say that the DEF-CCW's footprint is the RMS and not the RMSc.

[Exiledviking]

That looks promising! I've been thinking about buying a 407K 6 MOA sight. I'd like to see a comparison against the 407K with the 6 MOA dot.

[BK14]

Interesting. Not what I was expecting. I was talking to a rep the other day who mentioned their new pistol red dot, but hadn’t heard anything else about it. I’m always confused at the gap between their 1-6s that are “duty” rated, and their pistol dots being hobby rated. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction for them.

[HCM]

Interesting. Not what I was expecting. I was talking to a rep the other day who mentioned their new pistol red dot, but hadn’t heard anything else about it. I’m always confused at the gap between their 1-6s that are “duty” rated, and their pistol dots being hobby rated. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction for them.

While I agree it’s a step in the right direction, Vortex is like any other company - they have duty grade products, mid grade products and made in China hobby grade products. For example 1-6s - Razor vs PST vs strike eagle.

While this thing looked promising enough to buy it’s still a sub $300 optic, it’s not Razor 1-6 / Aimpoint ACRO quality.

[RJ]

,,,and a 1 degree shim plate.




Very interesting looking optic. Should be a good option to HS 507k/407k if it works - Top battery, "Waterproof" (I don't see an actual IP rating). How has reliability with Vortex optics been in the wild? Is the lens glass or polymer? Assuming it is tilted down, I am guessing the 1 degree shim is for 1911s?

I'm no expert on mounting nomenclature, but these guys seem to indicate the RMS and RMSc difference is in the size, not the mounting pattern.

https://www.optics-trade.eu/blog/footprints-on-red-dot-sights/#Shield_RMS/SMS_mounting_standard

"Important notes

Even though Shield RMS and RMSc differ in dimensions (the 'c' version is smaller), the distances between the holes are the same, which is why an adapter designed for the Shield mounting standard fits on both.

RMSc -(length x width x height) 40 x 23 x 22 mm
MS - (length x width x height) 42 x 25 x 23 mm"

...but I dunno.

[Noah]

Very interesting looking optic. Should be a good option to HS 507k/407k if it works - Top battery, "Waterproof" (I don't see an actual IP rating). How has reliability with Vortex optics been in the wild? Is the lens glass or polymer? Assuming it is tilted down, I am guessing the 1 degree shim is for 1911s?

I'm no expert on mounting nomenclature, but these guys seem to indicate the RMS and RMSc difference is in the size, not the mounting pattern.

https://www.optics-trade.eu/blog/footprints-on-red-dot-sights/#Shield_RMS/SMS_mounting_standard

"Important notes

Even though Shield RMS and RMSc differ in dimensions (the 'c' version is smaller), the distances between the holes are the same, which is why an adapter designed for the Shield mounting standard fits on both.

RMSc -(length x width x height) 40 x 23 x 22 mm
MS - (length x width x height) 42 x 25 x 23 mm"

...but I dunno.

I think its equivalent to the size difference between an EPS and EPS Carry, or thereabouts

[stomridertx]

I have a strong wish for Vortex to go hard in the paint on pistol red dots, because I'd love to have their warranty and customer service behind what I'm running. They also seem to get it about offering a 6 MOA dot. However, it looks like whoever is running their red dot division isn't paying attention or doesn't care. This is entering the race at the middle of the pack. I don't know how you do a product comparison and not pick the Holosun EPS over this. The plastic front is not that big an innovation and not a reason to go backwards to an open emitter. How is the company who makes the Razor Gen IIe 1-6 not able to put out the best duty grade pistol red dot?

[Clusterfrack]

I have a strong wish for Vortex to go hard in the paint on pistol red dots, because I'd love to have their warranty and customer service behind what I'm running. They also seem to get it about offering a 6 MOA dot. However, it looks like whoever is running their red dot division isn't paying attention or doesn't care. This is entering the race at the middle of the pack. I don't know how you do a product comparison and not pick the Holosun EPS over this. The plastic front is not that big an innovation and not a reason to go backwards to an open emitter. How is the company who makes the Razor Gen IIe 1-6 not able to put out the best duty grade pistol red dot?

I may just be grumpy, but here's my take. I'm not sure this even reaches the middle.

There is a proliferation of flimsy open-emitter optics that are basically a Burris Fastfire. What's new about these offerings? Brand name, and superficial external detailing.

Given that 1) RDS are the "New Hotness" for handguns, and 2) 99% of customers have no clue about what makes an optic functional and durable, why wouldn't well-known brands shortcut R&D and slap their name on a $100 RDS and charge $250? As well, why wouldn't completely unknown brands like CHWPS contract with a Chinese factory for one of their knockoff clone optics?

I really shouldn't complain. This is just market forces driving product design, and 5 years from now there will be as many brands of RDS as there are for folding knives. Some will be like Spyderco and Benchmade. Others will be like what you buy on the counter at 7-11.

[stomridertx]

I think Holosun's focus on only LED emitter optics and lasers is more of an advantage for them that we realized. This is highlighted by their real competition, Aimpoint, another company that focuses on red dots. The only places Holosun beats Aimpoint are price, variety of optic bodies, and reticle selection. If there was a 6 MOA dot Acro P2, I'd have a really hard time choosing because Aimpoint's manufacturing location and reputation are very powerful considerations. Trijicon, Vortex, etc are destined to fall behind because they also have to keep up with their traditional optic lines and have to devote R&D to all of them. Holosun's R&D and engineering are just moving faster than everyone else. I'm not sure if it's because they started from a place of copying Aimpoint, or if their existing presence in LED emitters in other industries gave them a head start of epic proportions.
Here's what's interesting, the only company that Huanic makes Red Dots for other than Holosun is Sig. I wonder if Sig wrote a big enough check that other competitors are locked out from using Huanic as an OEM. So other optics companies either have to catch up on emitter technology on their own, or be satisfied with being in a lower tier. Aimpoint has the focus to outdo Holosun, they just need to do it.

[HCM]

I think Holosun's focus on only LED emitter optics and lasers is more of an advantage for them that we realized. This is highlighted by their real competition, Aimpoint, another company that focuses on red dots. The only places Holosun beats Aimpoint are price, variety of optic bodies, and reticle selection. If there was a 6 MOA dot Acro P2, I'd have a really hard time choosing because Aimpoint's manufacturing location and reputation are very powerful considerations. Trijicon, Vortex, etc are destined to fall behind because they also have to keep up with their traditional optic lines and have to devote R&D to all of them. Holosun's R&D and engineering are just moving faster than everyone else. I'm not sure if it's because they started from a place of copying Aimpoint, or if their existing presence in LED emitters in other industries gave them a head start of epic proportions.
Here's what's interesting, the only company that Huanic makes Red Dots for other than Holosun is Sig. I wonder if Sig wrote a big enough check that other competitors are locked out from using Huanic as an OEM. So other optics companies either have to catch up on emitter technology on their own, or be satisfied with being in a lower tier. Aimpoint has the focus to outdo Holosun, they just need to do it.

Just because the only company you are aware of Husnic making optics or components for is SIG does mean that’s the case..

Aimpoint, like many Euro weapons and weapons related companies sees institutions as its “real customers.” Commercial sales are their scraps. Write a big enough order and AP will make a 6 MOA P-2.

There’s a lot of American shooters who think we are the center of the universe. A perfect example is recent on availability of both the P2 and the T2 Carbine optic. There have been all sorts of b******t conspiracy theories when Aimpoint has simply prioritized fulfilling, P-2 and T2 for international institutional customers.

The Euro gun industry culture is one factor - another is Aimpoint is a Swedish company, not an American company. Their idea of “out doing Holosun” may not be your idea of out doing Holosun.

[LittleLebowski]

Just because the only company you are aware of Husnic making optics or components for is SIG does mean that’s the case..

Aimpoint, like many Euro weapons and weapons related companies sees institutions as its “real customers.” Commercial sales are their scraps. Write a big enough order and AP will make a 6 MOA P-2.

There’s a lot of American shooters who think we are the center of the universe. A perfect example is recent on availability of both the P2 and the T2 Carbine optic. There have been all sorts of b******t conspiracy theories when Aimpoint has simply prioritized fulfilling, P-2 and T2 for international institutional customers.

The Euro gun industry culture is one factor - another is Aimpoint is a Swedish company, not an American company. Their idea of “out doing Holosun” may not be your idea of out doing Holosun.

It's very hard to describe certain Euro-ways of doing things.

[HCM]

I may just be grumpy, but here's my take. I'm not sure this even reaches the middle.

There is a proliferation of flimsy open-emitter optics that are basically a Burris Fastfire. What's new about these offerings? Brand name, and superficial external detailing.

Given that 1) RDS are the "New Hotness" for handguns, and 2) 99% of customers have no clue about what makes an optic functional and durable, why wouldn't well-known brands shortcut R&D and slap their name on a $100 RDS and charge $250? As well, why wouldn't completely unknown brands like CHWPS contract with a Chinese factory for one of their knockoff clone optics?

I really shouldn't complain. This is just market forces driving product design, and 5 years from now there will be as many brands of RDS as there are for folding knives. Some will be like Spyderco and Benchmade. Others will be like what you buy on the counter at 7-11.

Can’t say what this thing is on the inside, but

1) externally it’s not a fast fire / RMS what ever clone. The taller window and top load battery alone set it apart.

2) it’s not flimsy, it’s got a thick aluminum body. While that may be a negative re target focus shooting this thing is definitely made to survive drop and crush.

[HCM]

It's very hard to describe certain Euro-ways of doing things.

Agreed but it’s a thing.

[stomridertx]

Just because the only company you are aware of Husnic making optics or components for is SIG does mean that’s the case..

Aimpoint, like many Euro weapons and weapons related companies sees institutions as its “real customers.” Commercial sales are their scraps. Write a big enough order and AP will make a 6 MOA P-2.

There’s a lot of American shooters who think we are the center of the universe. A perfect example is recent on availability of both the P2 and the T2 Carbine optic. There have been all sorts of b******t conspiracy theories when Aimpoint has simply prioritized fulfilling, P-2 and T2 for international institutional customers.

The Euro gun industry culture is one factor - another is Aimpoint is a Swedish company, not an American company. Their idea of “out doing Holosun” may not be your idea of out doing Holosun.

Vortex uses Galaxier.
Swampfox is Shanghai Changhong Optoelectric.
Athlon uses Superior Lens.
Burris uses Scopro (Phillipines).
Bushnell uses Galxier and Superior Lens.
Crimson Trace uses Superior Lens, Nantong Chengxin Optical, and Tokyo Scope
Hawke uses Billings Optics.
Riton uses Shanghai Changhong Optoelectric.
Primary arms has partnered with Holosun with ACSS reticles in Holosun branded optics, but their brand doesn't share the same DNA. Their prism scopes are made by Galaxier.

Mike from Swampfox has openly said that Holosun won't sell their emitters.

Your point about Euro culture is a good one and Aimpoint probably doesn't see the current American landscape as a problem they need to solve.

Trijicon and Aimpoint can cater to whomever they want on their past reputation and what they believe is the best configuration for institutional users. They better not bitch when Holosun suprises them by snagging some of those contracts by designing around what American shooters want.

[CCT125US]

stomridertx

I see Swampfox and Riton use Shanghai Changhong Optoelectric. Would you happen to know which parts? I ask because I have used both, and there is a distinct quality difference, at least in my small sample set.

[stomridertx]

stomridertx

I see Swampfox and Riton use Shanghai Changhong Optoelectric. Would you happen to know which parts? I ask because I have used both, and there is a distinct quality difference, at least in my small sample set.

I don't, that's as much info as I've been able to dig up. I do know Chinese OEMs will put out whatever quality someone is willing to pay them for. None of the list is to imply that they are inferior quality, it's more that Holosun is WAY different and have options no other company has (besides SIG). It's fascinating to me that Vortex isn't doing a full court press to take back the category they created. It also may seem to come across like I'm a Holosun fanboy, but I will run whatever option is best for my needs no matter who makes it. I'd really like that to be Vortex instead of Holosun, to bring the thread back on track discussing Vortex's new optic.

[vcdgrips]

Edge of my and re RDS. Happy to defer to those with more experience as I only have about 3K max in pistol RDS.


That DNA catching front might give someone a bit of pause when vigorously "chopped" when clearing or otherwise manipulating the weapon.

[HCM]

Edge of my and re RDS. Happy to defer to those with more experience as I only have about 3K max in pistol RDS.


That DNA catching front might give someone a bit of pause when vigorously "chopped" when clearing or otherwise manipulating the weapon.

Personally, I don’t like using the optic as my primary means to manipulate the slide. In particular chopping the front of the optic, like that can induce malfunctions by blocking the ejection path.

That portion is also the polymer impact guard rather than metal. For me it would primarily be for chafing the slide off objects when I don’t have another hand available to manipulate the slide.

[Vista461]

You’d think in this day and age, they’d have better battery life.
It’s not 2017.

[HeavyDuty]

I don’t think much R&D effort is being put into disposable battery chemistry advancements. It’s all rechargeables.

[Clusterfrack]

I don’t think much R&D effort is being put into disposable battery chemistry advancements. It’s all rechargeables.

Last time I was paying attention, the Naval Research Lab (NRL) had a substantial research program on batteries, including non-rechargeable.

[CS Tactical]

Hey guys, we have both the 3 and 6 MOA in stock. My web guy will activate the link later this morning, specs are on Vortex's website https://vortexoptics.com/defender-ccw+reticle-6~MOA~Defender~Dot

Anyone who wants to grab one feel free to PM me before our site activates them, MAP is $249.99 :cool:

[rawkguitarist]

I'm far from an expert on the optics market. But my observation is that Holosun, no matter where they are made, has all but spanked everyone. I know the ACRO is a great optic - considered top notch by people I respect. Aimpoint and Trijicon may have some institutional buyers. But like others have mentioned, they may start loosing those contracts to Holosun. They might regret sticking with focus on only that market.

This Vortex looks like an OK option... but it *seems* like they designed it 5 years ago and just now released it. And I have some Vortex scopes that are the best optics I've ever used.

[GJM]

https://www.kenziesoptics.com/product/vortex-defender-ccw-micro-red-dot-sight/

[CS Tactical]

https://cstactical.com/vortex-defender-ccw-red-dot/

[stomridertx]

To be fair, I think I would pick this over the Holosun 407/507 K. The polymer shock absorber is interesting. I'm skeptical that the aggressive texture on the front is something I would actually want as it looks like a possible torn up support hand when manipulating the slide. You almost had me Vortex, but the Holosun EPS now exists and I can't go back to a CCW optic that I can't easily clean the window of lint. An enclosed emitter for concealed carry is a quality-of-life upgrade that can't be reverted.

[gskip]

So I've had this for about a month now, and I freaking love it. It's the first mini red dot that actually feels full sized (it gives me the same feel as a RMR).

Brightness:
It's as bright as a RMR. Brighter than holosuns. Most holosuns can get to the "down 1" setting of the RMR, but this gets all the way up there.

Window size:
The window is noticeably larger than the holosun 407k. It really feels like looking through a clear RMR sizewise.

Glass clarity:
No blue tint. Very clear and clean, like a deltapoint.

Mounting system:
Holy crap it comes with about 10 sets of screws for every single gun in the world. They are nice Torx screws too, so you dont have to buy the dot, then scroll around the internet looking for the size of screws for your gun. It also direct mounts to the Glock slimline MOS system (43x/48), the S&W Shield, and the Sig 365. It's great.


I would 100% choose this over any other K optic.

The only negative the defender has, is the refresh rate of the dot is a little slow. When the dot is dim, you can notice it. When the dot is full brightness, you don't see it.


It's literally better than the holosun k by every metric that I can think of. Especially when it's on the market for $250.

I really don't think you NEEEEED to have a enclosed emitter for CCW. Your belly lint is the only environmental hazard this thing is getting exposed to.

Background:

USPSA Open/Limited A Class/UML Pro/IDPA Master/LE 8 years in a large metro area with 3 years SWAT

[stomridertx]

I really don't think you NEEEEED to have a enclosed emitter for CCW. Your belly lint is the only environmental hazard this thing is getting exposed to.


The lint is exactly why you will appreciate an enclosed emitter when you finally carry one. This reminds me of everyone saying you don't need a daylight bright dot in an LPVO. There were two camps on that, those who said you didn't need it and those who owned the Vortex Razor 1-6. Once you have it, the genie is out of the bottle. I agree with you that this is better than the K optics.

[gskip]

The lint is exactly why you will appreciate an enclosed emitter when you finally carry one. This reminds me of everyone saying you don't need a daylight bright dot in an LPVO. There were two camps on that, those who said you didn't need it and those who owned the Vortex Razor 1-6. Once you have it, the genie is out of the bottle. I agree with you that this is better than the K optics.

Oh I have a 509t that I carry at work most of the time. I just don't really think it's an issue. Every time I put my gun in the holster, I got a little wipe and q tip and clean the rmr if needed. It's a good habit to just go over your gun before work always and a simple one to do.

I value a larger window and brighter dot over an enclosed emitter.

[stomridertx]

Oh I have a 509t that I carry at work most of the time. I just don't really think it's an issue. Every time I put my gun in the holster, I got a little wipe and q tip and clean the rmr if needed. It's a good habit to just go over your gun before work always and a simple one to do.

I value a larger window and brighter dot over an enclosed emitter.

Fair enough, everyone has their own tolerance for daily annoyances. It may be more pronounced for me because I live in a dry semi-arid part of the country (Texas Panhandle) and dust is a huge concern here. I had the daily q-tip routine and even kept a can of compressed air on top of the safe. The EPS changed that to just using the same microfiber cloth I already carry to clean my glasses to do a quick wipe of the rear lens. Not earth shattering, but enough to not give up the EPS for the Vortex even though I like Vortex better as a company than Holosun. The window size is the same between the EPS and the Vortex defender. Now, if Vortex had released this a year ago, I'd probably have it mounted already to both heavy use Glocks and would be debating if a closed emitter upgrade was worth it. At that time I wouldn't be aware of the decrease in daily small annoyances. Having that badass Vortex support behind me would really make that a tough decision.

[puma guy]

I'm new to the red dot/reflex sight world of shooting, but recently put together a Stoeger STR9 with a Sightron SRS2 that I talked about in my first post on this forum. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?55974-New-Member-looking-for-opinions-on-Sightron-SRS-2 https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?55974-New-Member-looking-for-opinions-on-Sightron-SRS-2

I have read this thread and some of the nomenclature and references are beyond my knowledge limits, though I have enjoyed reading them. I do know that Vortex is a quality company and has a very good reputation, so I decided to order the Defender CCW. I got a very good deal on it from and online sporting goods vendor at $227 total with some discounts they offered, so I think it's worth a try. We'll see.

I got a good laugh at the belly lint comment and had seen the reference to Naval Research. My dad always joked about saving belly (button) lint for Navel Research!
Thanks to everyone who offered their comments here the subject of the Vortex sight and also on my first post.

[JCN]

I value a larger window and brighter dot over an enclosed emitter.

Can you take a picture of the Vortex next to an RMR?

The regular EPS (not Carry) is similar in size to an RMR window. The RMR window it’s a little bit taller because of the arch.

Agree that Holosun 2MOA isn’t bright enough for direct sunlight, their 6MOA seem usable enough.

102597

102598

[gskip]

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I did some comparison pics between the defender and the 407k. My RMR is on the duty gun but ill try to take some pic later tonight.

It is a significant window upgrade between the holosun K and the defender. Especially when you look at them side by side. Even more so when you have to have a plate and suppressor sights on the holosun and you can just use the factory sights with the defender.

[crosseyedshooter]

102606102607

I did some comparison pics between the defender and the 407k. My RMR is on the duty gun but ill try to take some pic later tonight.

It is a significant window upgrade between the holosun K and the defender. Especially when you look at them side by side. Even more so when you have to have a plate and suppressor sights on the holosun and you can just use the factory sights with the defender.

Wow, how did they make a deck height that low and still squeeze in a top-load battery? I'd be hard-pressed to choose between this and a 407k for my Shield Plus. But unfortunately, the EPS Carry and sealed emitter is a thing, now.

[stomridertx]

I need to eat crow on this one because I may have changed my mind. It looks like from Vortex's pictures that the inside of the window is easy to reach for cleaning. I'm seriously thinking of moving my 509T on my Glock 47 to offset red dot duty on my scoped AR, putting the Defender on my carry 19, and moving my EPS Red 6 to the G47. The Vortex defender is quite a bit less expensive than the EPS, looks plenty durable, and will give me my beloved 6 MOA dot on all handguns. So, after all the smack I talked about Vortex releasing this with an open emitter, I may still wind up buying it.

[CS Tactical]

I need to eat crow on this one because I may have changed my mind. It looks like from Vortex's pictures that the inside of the window is easy to reach for cleaning. I'm seriously thinking of moving my 509T on my Glock 47 to offset red dot duty on my scoped AR, putting the Defender on my carry 19, and moving my EPS Red 6 to the G47. The Vortex defender is quite a bit less expensive than the EPS, looks plenty durable, and will give me my beloved 6 MOA dot on all handguns. So, after all the smack I talked about Vortex releasing this with an open emitter, I may still wind up buying it.


Hit me up at 916-628-3490 and I’ll hook you up on one :)
Richard@CST

[RJ]

Last time I was paying attention, the Naval Research Lab (NRL) had a substantial research program on batteries, including non-rechargeable.

No shit? I was a GS-7 intern there in the ECM/ECCM group in 1981. Fun times.

[frozentundra]

So I've had this for about a month now, and I freaking love it. It's the first mini red dot that actually feels full sized (it gives me the same feel as a RMR).

Brightness:
It's as bright as a RMR. Brighter than holosuns. Most holosuns can get to the "down 1" setting of the RMR, but this gets all the way up there.

Window size:
The window is noticeably larger than the holosun 407k. It really feels like looking through a clear RMR sizewise.

Glass clarity:
No blue tint. Very clear and clean, like a deltapoint.

Mounting system:
Holy crap it comes with about 10 sets of screws for every single gun in the world. They are nice Torx screws too, so you dont have to buy the dot, then scroll around the internet looking for the size of screws for your gun. It also direct mounts to the Glock slimline MOS system (43x/48), the S&W Shield, and the Sig 365. It's great.


I would 100% choose this over any other K optic.

The only negative the defender has, is the refresh rate of the dot is a little slow. When the dot is dim, you can notice it. When the dot is full brightness, you don't see it.


It's literally better than the holosun k by every metric that I can think of. Especially when it's on the market for $250.

I really don't think you NEEEEED to have a enclosed emitter for CCW. Your belly lint is the only environmental hazard this thing is getting exposed to.

Background:

USPSA Open/Limited A Class/UML Pro/IDPA Master/LE 8 years in a large metro area with 3 years SWAT

Thanks for the review! Do you have any updates after another month has gone by? Still feel the same? Any thoughts on battery life yet? How about flair or phantom dots in weird sun angles?

Also, you maybe shouldn't underestimate the seriousness of my belly lint situation. :( I don't know how so much fuzz winds up in my holsters. It's unnatural and weird.

I'm torn between trying this new Vortex and an EPS carry with anti belly lint lens technology.

[Ethang]

Interesting. The 507K I have for the Shield Plus is just not working out. With the plate is won't stay tight no matter how I mount it.

This being a direct mount it might be worth a try, even though I am not a fan of the lower tier Vortex products.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Interesting. The 507K I have for the Shield Plus is just not working out. With the plate is won't stay tight no matter how I mount it.

This being a direct mount it might be worth a try, even though I am not a fan of the lower tier Vortex products.

Also have a 4" Shield + & had my smith cut the slide then bolted my 507K green on top w/ zero issues since he did it last year.

[Ethang]

Also have a 4" Shield + & had my smith cut the slide then bolted my 507K green on top w/ zero issues since he did it last year.

that is one option I am looking at, but if this Vortex is solid that would eliminate the need to mill.

[CS Tactical]

Anyone looking for one just let me know and I'll see what I can do for you :)

[MandoWookie]

Can anyone confirm if these are direct fit(no plates) on the Optics Ready Shield Plus models?

[CS Tactical]

Can anyone confirm if these are direct fit(no plates) on the Optics Ready Shield Plus models?


It's made for for the Shield RMS footprint so yes :)

"Your new favorite Shield Plus is ready to go straight out of the box. Whether you plan to run an optic or use the traditional iron sights, you decide. The optic choice is yours, choose from any Shield RMS optic footprint which covers up to 80% of the micro compact red dot optics on the market."

[DLWinner]

So far, these seem to be solid optics. Not a fan of the battery life though.

[DaBigBR]

So far, these seem to be solid optics. Not a fan of the battery life though.

This is probably at least partially a consequence of the very clear lens. The MPS has the same issue. That blue tint people bitch about lets them run the emitter with less power.

[gskip]

Thanks for the review! Do you have any updates after another month has gone by? Still feel the same? Any thoughts on battery life yet? How about flair or phantom dots in weird sun angles?

Also, you maybe shouldn't underestimate the seriousness of my belly lint situation. :( I don't know how so much fuzz winds up in my holsters. It's unnatural and weird.

I'm torn between trying this new Vortex and an EPS carry with anti belly lint lens technology.

I still really like it. I will say that the battery started dying after a month of constant on. So I turned on the auto on/off feature and we'll see how long it lasts now.

I like it a lot still.

I am not concerned about the refresh rate, as I always run it on full brightness, and I've tried shooting it not on full brightness and it was still just fine shooting. Even if it flickered. Some folks are making a huge deal out of it and I just don't really think they are shooting a ton. It's annoying from an aesthetic standpoint, but I don't find it to be a problem when shooting. No issues shooting it in the sunlight yet.

[Tokarev]

Cowan reviewed this for his Patreon members. He likes it. He doesn't like the refresh rate. That was really his only complaint.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[JCN]

I still really like it. I will say that the battery started dying after a month of constant on. So I turned on the auto on/off feature and we'll see how long it lasts now.

I like it a lot still.

I am not concerned about the refresh rate, as I always run it on full brightness, and I've tried shooting it not on full brightness and it was still just fine shooting. Even if it flickered. Some folks are making a huge deal out of it and I just don't really think they are shooting a ton. It's annoying from an aesthetic standpoint, but I don't find it to be a problem when shooting. No issues shooting it in the sunlight yet.

Refresh rate is a super huge deal for my dot tracking precision under recoil and with transitions at max speed.

To the point where I won’t use the RMSx because of that.

[1Rangemaster]

Cowan reviewed this for his Patreon members. He likes it. He doesn't like the refresh rate. That was really his only complaint.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I usually learn something here on this site, which is appreciated.
Could someone please define "refresh rate"?

[BillSWPA]

I usually learn something here on this site, which is appreciated.
Could someone please define "refresh rate"?

If I understand correctly, this optic uses pulse width modulation to control the brightness. So, it is constantly switching between on and off. The refresh rate is the number of times per second that it switches back on. At lower brightness settings, the percentage of time the emitter is off will be greater than at high brightness settings, making the on-off switching potentially more visible to the shooter.

[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/JyCxKS2Gz8s

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[stomridertx]

I was considering it to get a 6 MOA dot on my other Glock, but I decided to be patient and wait for more reviews to come out. I'm out, the EPS exists and there's no reason to put up with any shortcomings of this optic. Vortex's warranty is not enough to overlook a superior option.

[gskip]

Refresh rate is a super huge deal for my dot tracking precision under recoil and with transitions at max speed.

To the point where I won’t use the RMSx because of that.

Ehhhhhh. Disagree.

Maybe I am not seeing the issue because I shoot this at typically full brightness (no refresh rate issues). I just really don't see why people are shitting on this optic so much.

The glass is bigger, the glass is clearer, the dot is brighter, the mounting system is better and it looks good. And that's comparing it to the 507k or the EPS carry.

The con's to this optic is it has really bad battery life and if you care, the dot flickers at lower settings. I don't use lower settings, unless I am zero'ing.

I've carried a RDS professionally for almost four years now, and I practically always have it at full brightness (unless I am working a grave).

[CS Tactical]

If someone is looking for a demo model for $210 shipped to try out, send me your information in a PM :)

[gskip]

https://youtu.be/JyCxKS2Gz8s

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

That is a very interesting issue. I can't get mine to replicate it, but my dot is also on a 365 Macro.

Very concerning though if it just doesn't work with any longer barrel guns.

[JCN]

Ehhhhhh. Disagree.

Maybe I am not seeing the issue because I shoot this at typically full brightness (no refresh rate issues). I just really don't see why people are shitting on this optic so much.

The glass is bigger, the glass is clearer, the dot is brighter, the mounting system is better and it looks good. And that's comparing it to the 507k or the EPS carry.

The con's to this optic is it has really bad battery life and if you care, the dot flickers at lower settings. I don't use lower settings, unless I am zero'ing.

I've carried a RDS professionally for almost four years now, and I practically always have it at full brightness (unless I am working a grave).

Are you talking about the Vortex or the RMSx I was talking about?

For the RMSx the dot isn’t bright enough and the plastic lens has a lot of parallax.

So the refresh issue leads to performance loss when I use it. YMMV with different optics.

[gskip]

Are you talking about the Vortex or the RMSx I was talking about?

For the RMSx the dot isn’t bright enough and the plastic lens has a lot of parallax.

So the refresh issue leads to performance loss when I use it. YMMV with different optics.

My bad. I do not know the RMSx. Low brightness and lots of parallax certainly doesn’t sound good.