P35s Overseas

[BLR]

For those w/ middle east and European experience - how common, in so far a pistols are concerned, are P35s compared to say G17s?

[Kyle Reese]

Saw a few P35 clones (FEG) in Iraq, and have only seen them carried by Canadian troops in Kandahar last fall/winter.

Europe? Saw the P35 in UK mil holsters while on a tour in Bosnia many moons ago.

Glock 19's seem to be the most prevalent issued handgun for private security firms (DOD/DOS) OCONUS, in my experience.

[BLR]

Saw a few P35 clones (FEG) in Iraq, and have only seen them carried by Canadian troops in Kandahar last fall/winter.

Europe? Saw the P35 in UK mil holsters while on a tour in Bosnia many moons ago.

Glock 19's seem to be the most prevalent issued handgun for private security firms (DOD/DOS) OCONUS, in my experience.

Thanks Fred.

Going by pics on the internet - I'd have guessed they are "all over the place," and along with the Markov were the most common in the ME.

[BLR]

A second question, does anyone have any actual first hand experience with high round count P35s?

Internet hypothesizing aside, on modern P35s, where's the weak link? Cracked fame? Slide? Peening? Small parts breakage?

[secondstoryguy]

I've seen a few in South America. The ones I saw were knock offs(Argentina?). Here's a good article on P35s:
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/bhptoday.shtml

[BLR]

I've seen a few in South America. The ones I saw were knock offs(Argentina?). Here's a good article on P35s:
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/bhptoday.shtml

That article actually illustrates my point - "DO NOT SHOT +Ps IN HIGH POWERS." Going on further to say a few mags will "upset" the locking lugs. This obviously isn't the case with the MkIIIs. Are the durability issues a result of dated metallurgy or design? Definitely not the same thing.

[Wes Peart]

That article actually illustrates my point - "DO NOT SHOT +Ps IN HIGH POWERS." Going on further to say a few mags will "upset" the locking lugs. This obviously isn't the case with the MkIIIs. Are the durability issues a result of dated metallurgy or design? Definitely not the same thing.

This guy has some good writing about +P's in Hi powers, mostly about MKIII's, though.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHPandHighPressureAmmo.htm

[JAD]

I've seen quite a few in Israel, although it almost seems like I've seen as many CZ75s. I haven't seen a plastic pistol openly carried outside the US.

[BLR]

This guy has some good writing about +P's in Hi powers, mostly about MKIII's, though.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHPandHighPressureAmmo.htm

Very familiar with Mr. Camp.

He is sorely missed by many.

[ToddG]

Very familiar with Mr. Camp.

He is sorely missed by many.

Indeed. I spent most of this week in his home town and great stories about Mr Camp were not difficult to find.

[LittleLebowski]

Very familiar with Mr. Camp.

He is sorely missed by many.

Absolutely.

[R.M.T.]

This is a quote from Patrick Sweeney's book 1911 The First 100 Years, Sweeney is quoting Bruce Gray about the metallurgy of the p35.

"The finest Velveeta-Grade steel"

This seems to be due to the fact the at older P35s had very complex machine procedures. I personally found the Velveeta remark funny.

On a side note Sweeney's book is pretty interesting, and has lots of pictures.

Have a good one,

RMT

[nwhpfan]

Question regarding a "high round count" HP? If there was just a way we could; or knew someone that would...oh nevermind. It's not like the BHP was crowed "King of all 9's" or anything...oh, wait a minute.....

[Nephrology]

Absolutely.

I didn't know that he had passed on. a terrible shame. His website was a thoroughly enjoyable read.

[BLR]

I didn't know that he had passed on. a terrible shame. His website was a thoroughly enjoyable read.

It still is. From what little I've been told, a friend is keeping it up and going.

To say he was an authority on the P35 is an understatement, and his book was well worth the read.

[LittleLebowski]

I bought his books on P35s and 1911s while I was still in the Corps. I ordered more of each and got autographed copies that were sent to my brother in Iraq.

[Al T.]

Overseas for me was Iraq. The Danish contingent carried SIG 210s, some of the Brits carried Glock 17s, most were BHPs. I saw one 1911A1 carried and strongly suspected that it was a personal weapon.

The Iraqi police carried some sort of Bulgarian BHP clone, very much like a FEG. Trainers reported that with FMJ they seemed to run OK. Ammo was mostly Wolf.

I recall reading years ago that the SAS had discovered that the show stopper for a BHP was the magazine latch hole in the frame getting worn out. Once that happened, it was not cost effective to repair the frame.

[JonInWA]

Mr. Camp was a true gentleman, and very objective, even with regard to his beloved Hi Powers. Both of his books on the Hi Power are excellent reading, and his www.hipowersandhandguns.com website is well worth spending time on, for both Hi Power aficionados and others (he also discusses other platforms on it). I believe that his widow is continuing it in his memory, and his books are still available through the site (and well worth acquiring).

There really is a dearth of serious analysis regarding the durability and longevity of the post 1994 Hi Powers; these guns have more thorough-hardened (and investment cast) frames, slides (forged), and small components, which was a necessity when the Hi Power was scaled up to handle the .40 cartridge. These improvements were quickly carried over to the 9mm Hi Powers, which should make these guns far more durable than their predecessors. Unfortunately, for those desiring a Hi Power in .40, you'll have to go the pre-owned or custom conversion route, as FN discontinued them officially several years ago (and probably actually ceased production a year previous to their formal discontinuation). The 9mm Hi Powers are still manufactured by FN, but in North America are marketed and sold exclusively by Browning; production allegedly is in a small annual batch of around 1,000 guns.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has really conducted even a semi-methodical study over time/high round count on these improved Hi Powers; the existing informed consensus is that Hi Power barrels are good for some 12K-15K rounds, and the basic guns themselves are good for some 35K, but I strongly suspect that this empirically obtained knowledge was based predominantly, if not exclusively on older (pre-1994) forged-framed (and softer steel) Hi Powers.

It would be very interesting if Todd was to subject a current production Mk III or Standard 9mm Hi Power to one of his long-term/high round count tests; I think that the results might be somewhat surprising to many.

Best, Jon

[Matt O]

Mr. Camp was a true gentleman, and very objective, even with regard to his beloved Hi Powers. Both of his books on the Hi Power are excellent reading, and his www.hipowersandhandguns.com website is well worth spending time on, for both Hi Power aficionados and others (he also discusses other platforms on it). I believe that his widow is continuing it in his memory, and his books are still available through the site (and well worth acquiring).

There really is a dearth of serious analysis regarding the durability and longevity of the post 1994 Hi Powers; these guns have more thorough-hardened (and investment cast) frames, slides (forged), and small components, which was a necessity when the Hi Power was scaled up to handle the .40 cartridge. These improvements were quickly carried over to the 9mm Hi Powers, which should make these guns far more durable than their predecessors. Unfortunately, for those desiring a Hi Power in .40, you'll have to go the pre-owned or custom conversion route, as FN discontinued them officially several years ago (and probably actually ceased production a year previous to their formal discontinuation). The 9mm Hi Powers are still manufactured by FN, but in North America are marketed and sold exclusively by Browning; production allegedly is in a small annual batch of around 1,000 guns.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has really conducted even a semi-methodical study over time/high round count on these improved Hi Powers; the existing informed consensus is that Hi Power barrels are good for some 12K-15K rounds, and the basic guns themselves are good for some 35K, but I strongly suspect that this empirically obtained knowledge was based predominantly, if not exclusively on older (pre-1994) forged-framed (and softer steel) Hi Powers.

It would be very interesting if Todd was to subject a current production Mk III or Standard 9mm Hi Power to one of his long-term/high round count tests; I think that the results might be somewhat surprising to many.

Best, Jon

This would certainly be interesting to see. I've always been pretty smitten with the hi-power and sadly I've never gotten a chance to fire one. The more practical and rational voice in my head has stopped me from purchasing one on more than one occasion, partially due to the negative rumors regarding longevity. It would very nice to know once and for all if this is a metallurgical issue that has been fixed, or a critical design flaw.

[azant]

Unfortunately, I don't have any hard data as to HI Power longevity.

Mr. Camp was my very dear friend and mentor. From talking to him and shooting with him on a weekly basis for years, I don't beleive he put the amount of rounds through individual guns like many here on this forum. He had 7 Hi Powers when he passed on and I have his record books of most all of the guns he ever owned. Over the years he owned a lot of Hi Powers. I own his "Number 2" and the Mark II HP he first "officially" carried on his duty belt. Both have obviously been shot a lot. Heck, I shot them a lot under his tutelage, but neither has been shot anywhere near breakage. Both probably have less than 15000 rounds through them.

An HP he owned and shot a lot long ago is still in the hands of a detective at my department. He doesn't shoot much. The last qualifcation day led to his gun exhibiting hammer follow. After firing the hammer would fall to the halfcock notch. It is an older 70's era gun that is just having some parts start to wear out.

Mr Camp was always careful to spread his shooting amongst many guns to specifically avoid wearing his favorites out. Few of his guns ever saw shooting sessions like you would in an AFHF class. When I would consider having a couple of HPs built with beavertails to carry on duty, he would always caution me that they would not stand up to the abuse I dealt to my guns.

Now, as to the post 94 Mk IIIs, I think the slides and frames might well be tougher. However, are the small parts tougher as well? After Mr`Camp's passing, I considered just such a test with the idea of putting it on his website. I have not had the time or money to put on such a project.

I believe it would be very interesting for someone to undertake this.........as long as they live near a good HP smith and make sure all the spare parts are on hand. What is the maintenance interval on small parts other than springs? Shooting 30000 rounds through a gun in 30 years is not the same as shooting them in 1 year. From TLG's tests we can see that heat kills guns pretty quickly.

I cherish my HPs, but I haven't carried one in several years except to Mr. Camp's funeral. They are magnificent guns, but I am not sure they are viable as high round count carry guns in this day and time. I sincerely hope that someone can prove that statement incorrect.

Best

Allen

[DocGKR]

I had quite a few custom Hi-Powers over the years, including older 9 mm, as well as newer 9 mm and .40's. BHP's are beautiful, elegant, and completely unpractical in this day and age. In talking with organizations that had very high round count HP's--none stayed with the design, as the pistols required extensive gunsmithing and did not withstand intense shooting schedules. Sheared locking lugs were common, as were cracked slides--most broke by 35,000 rounds or so. 1911's are MUCH more robust than HP's. Pay attention to other nations that extensively used the HP in the later half of the 20th century; even if their conventional military continued to use the HP, the SOF units switched to more modern pistol designs as soon as possible. There is a reason for that...

[Tamara]

Very familiar with Mr. Camp.

He is sorely missed by many.

Yeah, that link caught me out of the blue. Was just talking about Mr. Camp with my friend Matt Guest, who grew up shooting with him, last weekend.

[BLR]

I had quite a few custom Hi-Powers over the years, including older 9 mm, as well as newer 9 mm and .40's. BHP's are beautiful, elegant, and completely unpractical in this day and age. In talking with organizations that had very high round count HP's--none stayed with the design, as the pistols required extensive gunsmithing and did not withstand intense shooting schedules. Sheared locking lugs were common, as were cracked slides--most broke by 35,000 rounds or so. 1911's are MUCH more robust than HP's. Pay attention to other nations that extensively used the HP in the later half of the 20th century; even if their conventional military continued to use the HP, the SOF units switched to more modern pistol designs as soon as possible. There is a reason for that...

May all well be true.

Feels like a P35 kinda day today :)

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Beavercreek-20121011-01407.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Beavercreek-20121011-01406.jpg

Just a regular old MkIII....from a set of 5 consecutive serial number guns that I'm still trying to decide what to do with. Novak? Sokol? Definitely no beavertails and they all should be blued.

[JonInWA]

Unfortunately, I don't have any hard data as to HI Power longevity.

Mr. Camp was my very dear friend and mentor. From talking to him and shooting with him on a weekly basis for years, I don't beleive he put the amount of rounds through individual guns like many here on this forum. He had 7 Hi Powers when he passed on and I have his record books of most all of the guns he ever owned. Over the years he owned a lot of Hi Powers. I own his "Number 2" and the Mark II HP he first "officially" carried on his duty belt. Both have obviously been shot a lot. Heck, I shot them a lot under his tutelage, but neither has been shot anywhere near breakage. Both probably have less than 15000 rounds through them.

An HP he owned and shot a lot long ago is still in the hands of a detective at my department. He doesn't shoot much. The last qualifcation day led to his gun exhibiting hammer follow. After firing the hammer would fall to the halfcock notch. It is an older 70's era gun that is just having some parts start to wear out.

Mr Camp was always careful to spread his shooting amongst many guns to specifically avoid wearing his favorites out. Few of his guns ever saw shooting sessions like you would in an AFHF class. When I would consider having a couple of HPs built with beavertails to carry on duty, he would always caution me that they would not stand up to the abuse I dealt to my guns.

Now, as to the post 94 Mk IIIs, I think the slides and frames might well be tougher. However, are the small parts tougher as well? After Mr`Camp's passing, I considered just such a test with the idea of putting it on his website. I have not had the time or money to put on such a project.

I believe it would be very interesting for someone to undertake this.........as long as they live near a good HP smith and make sure all the spare parts are on hand. What is the maintenance interval on small parts other than springs? Shooting 30000 rounds through a gun in 30 years is not the same as shooting them in 1 year. From TLG's tests we can see that heat kills guns pretty quickly.

I cherish my HPs, but I haven't carried one in several years except to Mr. Camp's funeral. They are magnificent guns, but I am not sure they are viable as high round count carry guns in this day and time. I sincerely hope that someone can prove that statement incorrect.

Best

Allen

I also personally experienced hammer follow with my first Hi Power, a early production (as I recall, a 1995 vintage) .40 Standard; it went back to Browning, and received a new sear and recoil spring. Unfortunately, after Browning's tender ministrations, it lost the magnificant triggerpull that it had exhibited out of the box-Kurt Wickmann at Novaks said that it was the best they'd ever experienced, and, despite giving them a carte blanche for any mechanical work, he felt that it should be left as it was, which I did (they performed their reliability job and some beautiful cosmetic work to gild that particular gun). The hammer follow occurred at roughly between the 6K-8K round count, as I best recall, and I had been using Wolff replacement springs, allegedly at the appropriate 20 lb strength. I say allegedly because the spring that Browning put in was markedly heavier; if the Wolff spring was lighter, it may have been a contributory factor to the problem (all my Hi Power springs are replaced at the 1K to 2K interval). Neither of my 2 subsequent (including the current) Mk III .40 Hi Powers have had any issues, but they both had/have lower roundcounts through them to date.

Best, Jon

[Up1911Fan]

May all well be true.

Feels like a P35 kinda day today :)

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Beavercreek-20121011-01407.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Beavercreek-20121011-01406.jpg

Just a regular old MkIII....from a set of 5 consecutive serial number guns that I'm still trying to decide what to do with. Novak? Sokol? Definitely no beavertails and they all should be blued.


1. Heirloom Precision
2. Novak's
3. Karl Sokol
4. Cylinder and Slide
5. Don Williams

That's 5....

[Tamara]

Feels like a P35 kinda day today :)

With all due respect, I look at old posts I made at TFL and GlockTalk a dozen years ago, where I said it felt like "a P7 kind of day" or a "revolver kind of day" and I cringe.


“What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises—no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting.”

;)

[Mr_White]

Excellent. :D

[BLR]

With all due respect, I look at old posts I made at TFL and GlockTalk a dozen years ago, where I said it felt like "a P7 kind of day" or a "revolver kind of day" and I cringe.


I'd cringe if I'd posted there too...

[Mr_White]

Just to clarify my post, the only thing I was expressing was pure joy at Gurney Halleck being quoted.

[Tamara]

I'd cringe if I'd posted there too...

Yeah, back in '00 on TFL... what did I know? I mean, I saw n00bs like Gale McMillan and Pat Rogers and Harry Humphries and Stephen Camp posting there and thought somebody there might know something about guns.

I'll always treasure the time I shared in the staff forum at THR with Mr. Camp...

[BLR]

Yeah, back in '00 on TFL... what did I know? I mean, I saw n00bs like Gale McMillan and Pat Rogers and Harry Humphries and Stephen Camp posting there and thought somebody there might know something about guns.

I'll always treasure the time I shared in the staff forum at THR with Mr. Camp...

Just teasing ya. ;)