Bad news: Federal possibly discontinuing 8 pellet Flite Control

[TCinVA]

101457

Ellifritz is not one to just pass along poorly sourced rumor. It looks as if the 8 pellet loading of FFC might be discontinued.

One of the biggest problems shotguns have in the defensive role is the plug-fucking stupidity of the market surrounding shotguns. A lot of agencies buy the 9 pellet load because 9 pellets is the tradition, regardless of whether the 8 pellet load performs better. With more and more agencies ditching shotguns altogether because they don't know how to train people on them, I can imagine that the LE demand for the 8 pellet load is continually shrinking.

The civilian market for defensive shotguns is hardly any smarter when it comes to ammunition selection.

I'd say stock up, but 8 pellet has basically been unobtanium since the COVID panic started.

[Colt191145lover]

Well crap, that's horrible news.
Do we start a petition?

[Guerrero]

I'd say stock up, but 8 pellet has basically been unobtanium since the COVID panic started.

I wonder if this announcement is part of the reason why we can't find it. It was unofficially discontinued a while ago, wasn't manufactured (in favor of the 9-pellet), and now comes the official announcement.

[JAD]

Well crap, that's horrible news.
Do we start a petition?

In a commercial context like this, the only signatures that are meaningful are at the bottom of a bunch of large purchase orders.

The market didn't like it, so it's gone. None of us on the forum are the market.

[JCN]

I am a shotgunner noob.

I had to Google it.

Interesting hypothesis about the 8 pellet in two rows of 4.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.luckygunner.com/lounge/more-stuff-you-should-know-about-buckshot-part-2/amp/

[Cory]

Well, this sucks.

[Duces Tecum]

There are lots of boutique reloaders, some with rare offerings that probably don't have high sales. Is it reasonable to anticipate some guy will retire to his garage after dinner and and start making the 8-pellet loads?

[Pnut]

There are lots of boutique reloaders, some with rare offerings that probably don't have high sales. Is it reasonable to anticipate some guy will retire to his garage after dinner and and start making the 8-pellet loads?

The problem is sourcing the Flight Control wads. The other option is Hornady 00 buck… it is loaded with 8 pellets and their VersaTite wad, but it’s loaded to 1600 fps and doesn’t have a buffer compound like Federal

[Guerrero]

The problem is sourcing the Flight Control wads. The other option is Hornady 00 buck… it is loaded with 8 pellets and their VersaTite wad, but it’s loaded to 1600 fps and doesn’t have a buffer compound like Federal

And the shot isn't plated.

[BWT]

There are lots of boutique reloaders, some with rare offerings that probably don't have high sales. Is it reasonable to anticipate some guy will retire to his garage after dinner and and start making the 8-pellet loads?

No offense to anyone, but I’d be reluctant to use something like that for serious use.

[Hambo]

There are lots of boutique reloaders, some with rare offerings that probably don't have high sales. Is it reasonable to anticipate some guy will retire to his garage after dinner and and start making the 8-pellet loads?

Federal doesn't sell the FC wads to anyone. I tried almost everything to see if I could load anything that performed similarly to FC. Even using a variety of standard and specialty buckshot chokes, nothing came close. Without FC wads, it's not possible.

Federal killed the two best patterning buckshot loads (8 pellet 00 and the #1 buck), which shows you how the industry works today. Even though some are re-learning how well shotguns perform, Federal doesn't see enough potential sales to keep making them.

I'll keep what I've got, and use my reloads for practice. If worse comes to worse and I want one hole patterns at whatever range, I'll just use slugs.

[RevolverRob]

Well crap, that's horrible news.
Do we start a petition?

Yes. It should say,

"Dear Hornady,

We appreciate your continued commitment to building an 8-pellet, low recoil, 12-gauge buckshot load using your Versatite Wad technology. We recognize at present such a load is limited solely to the Law Enforcement Market as part of your TAP Line of products. Today, we're requesting that you make available this same load to the general (non-LE) market. If you were to do so, you would be the sole manufacturing of a low recoil, 8-pellet, buckshot load using a controlled release-type wad. For the same reasons that Hornady continues to manufacture this load for Law Enforcement is why it is viewed favorably by the general public. The decision of your rival, Federal Premium, to discontinue it's 8-pellet offering from its Law Enforcement and Personal Defense lines presents a unique opportunity for Hornady to fill that hole with an existing product line."

[LHS]

There are lots of boutique reloaders, some with rare offerings that probably don't have high sales. Is it reasonable to anticipate some guy will retire to his garage after dinner and and start making the 8-pellet loads?

Unless that guy gets a license to use the FliteControl/Versatite wad design, and has the kind of QC we generally see from Federal, it won't be anywhere near the same stuff.

[167]

Yes. It should say,

"Dear Hornady,

We appreciate your continued commitment to building an 8-pellet, low recoil, 12-gauge buckshot load using your Versatite Wad technology. We recognize at present such a load is limited solely to the Law Enforcement Market as part of your TAP Line of products. Today, we're requesting that you make available this same load to the general (non-LE) market. If you were to do so, you would be the sole manufacturing of a low recoil, 8-pellet, buckshot load using a controlled release-type wad. For the same reasons that Hornady continues to manufacture this load for Law Enforcement is why it is viewed favorably by the general public. The decision of your rival, Federal Premium, to discontinue it's 8-pellet offering from its Law Enforcement and Personal Defense lines presents a unique opportunity for Hornady to fill that hole with an existing product line."

Hornady’s American Gunner 00 is a lower recoil version of their Critical Defense load. The low recoil TAP load is like an ultra low recoil load. Allegedly clocks less than 1,000 fps out of the typical barrel lengths on defensive shotguns.

[03RN]

Fwiw I prefer the 9 pellet load. Even when there is a 9th pellet flier I have found in all my guns that it is still a tighter pattern than anything else.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The problem is sourcing the Flight Control wads. The other option is Hornady 00 buck… it is loaded with 8 pellets and their VersaTite wad, but it’s loaded to 1600 fps and doesn’t have a buffer compound like Federal



"Dear Hornady,

We appreciate your continued commitment to building an 8-pellet, low recoil, 12-gauge buckshot load using your Versatite Wad technology. We recognize at present such a load is limited solely to the Law Enforcement Market as part of your TAP Line of products. Today, we're requesting that you make available this same load to the general (non-LE) market. If you were to do so, you would be the sole manufacturing of a low recoil, 8-pellet, buckshot load using a controlled release-type wad. For the same reasons that Hornady continues to manufacture this load for Law Enforcement is why it is viewed favorably by the general public. The decision of your rival, Federal Premium, to discontinue it's 8-pellet offering from its Law Enforcement and Personal Defense lines presents a unique opportunity for Hornady to fill that hole with an existing product line."



Hornady’s American Gunner 00 is a lower recoil version of their Critical Defense load. The low recoil TAP load is like an ultra low recoil load. Allegedly clocks less than 1,000 fps out of the typical barrel lengths on defensive shotguns.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/12-ga-00-buckshot-reduced-recoil-american-gunner#!/


Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any velocity numbers for any of their 00B on the site.

[Chuck Whitlock]

https://palmettostatearmory.com/hornady-american-gunner-12ga-reduced-recoil-00-buckshot-ammunition-10rds-86274.html?avad=74383_d2e75b5a5&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_medium=Referral&utm_campaign=cl

PSA says velocity is 1350. So it ain't 1100, but it ain't 1600, either.

The one review says the brass is soft, so there is that to look out for.

[167]

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/12-ga-00-buckshot-reduced-recoil-american-gunner#!/


Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any velocity numbers for any of their 00B on the site.

The on the box velocity for the AG load is 1350fps, but that is out of a 30” test barrel. IIRC, it feels like a little less velocity than the typical 1325fps load.

https://thatshotgunblog.wordpress.com/2020/08/29/federals-flite-control-vs-hornadys-versa-tite/

[RevolverRob]

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/shotgun/12-ga-00-buckshot-reduced-recoil-american-gunner#!/


Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any velocity numbers for any of their 00B on the site.

TAP Low Recoil says 1150fps on the box, Crit Defense, BLACK, and Tap Light Magnum are (I think) the same shell different branding, 1600fps. The American Gunner is as 167 said advertised at 1325fps.

All from 30" test barrels. I don't know what length Federal tests it's velocities from.

[jetfire]

Lol I should have read through the replies before digging up the Hornady load.

Anyway I got some info from Federal yesterday that the 8 pellet isn't being discontinued so who knows?

[167]

Lol I should have read through the replies before digging up the Hornady load.

Anyway I got some info from Federal yesterday that the 8 pellet isn't being discontinued so who knows?

Steve Fisher has said the same.

[LHS]

I have not been impressed with the 1600fps Hornady stuff. Not only does it tend to pattern... mediocrely, I've had it exhibit a fair amount of sticking in otherwise good-to-go chambers.

[kwb377]

TAP Low Recoil says 1150fps on the box, Crit Defense, BLACK, and Tap Light Magnum are (I think) the same shell different branding, 1600fps. The American Gunner is as 167 said advertised at 1325fps.

All from 30" test barrels. I don't know what length Federal tests it's velocities from.

Hornady's specs are showing 985fps from an 18" barrel and 1100fps out of a 30" barrel for the TAP Reduced Recoil. I bought a batch about a year ago, and while it patterned just a little looser than FC in most of my guns, it was horrible out of my 1301 using both Cyl. and IC choke...to the point it almost wouldn't keep all 8 pellets on an IDPA target at @ 15 yds.
The recoil was comically low...the first couple of rounds, I had to check that they weren't squibs.

https://www.hornadyle.com/shotgun-ammunition/12-ga-tap-reduced-recoil#!/

[LHS]

Fisher's posting on social media that he contacted two sources at Federal who said LE13300 is not going away, and that the CS rep gave incorrect information that started this concern.

[Guerrero]

Fisher's posting on social media that he contacted two sources at Federal who said LE13300 is not going away, and that the CS rep gave incorrect information that started this concern.

https://media.tenor.com/Rlh2p5uef18AAAAC/relief-phew.gif

[GearFondler]

Fisher's posting on social media that he contacted two sources at Federal who said LE13300 is not going away, and that the CS rep gave incorrect information that started this concern.The cynic in me notes that "Not discontinued" is not the same as "Still in production"... But good to hear nonetheless.

[TCinVA]

I've seen enough that I'm pretty sure now this was a false alarm.

Good thing.

Losing 8 pellet and Raquel Welch in the same day really sucked.

[RevolverRob]

Losing 8 pellet and Raquel Welch in the same day really sucked.

We can hang out.

And just as a total aside...I don't understand from a bean counter perspective why they don't discontinue the nine pellet variant.

From a purely production standpoint that just makes sense. Removing a pellet from the 9-pellet forms means after every 8-rounds of 9-pellet you produce, you have the pellets to make an additional 8-pellet round. Are plated pellets cheaper than grex? :confused: The fact that the 8-pellet patterns better and more consistently in most guns and the production savings...it just...doesn't make sense to me.

I ASSume it is entirely historical inertia that maintains the 9-pellet variant over the 8-pellet variant as the top seller. I get from that perspective that you aren't discontinuing your biggest seller.

[LHS]

We can hang out.

And just as a total aside...I don't understand from a bean counter perspective why they don't discontinue the nine pellet variant.

From a purely production standpoint that just makes sense. Removing a pellet from the 9-pellet forms means after every 8-rounds of 9-pellet you produce, you have the pellets to make an additional 8-pellet round. Are plated pellets cheaper than grex? :confused: The fact that the 8-pellet patterns better and more consistently in most guns and the production savings...it just...doesn't make sense to me.

I ASSume it is entirely historical inertia that maintains the 9-pellet variant over the 8-pellet variant as the top seller. I get from that perspective that you aren't discontinuing your biggest seller.

A fair number of agencies have policies that specify 9-pellet 00 for issued buckshot, and as with most things, big agency purchases carry a lot of weight.

[RevolverRob]

A fair number of agencies have policies that specify 9-pellet 00 for issued buckshot, and as with most things, big agency purchases carry a lot of weight.

Historical inertia is tough to overcome. And since agencies are largely moving from shotguns, I won't be surprised if they never change the policies.

[Lon]

A fair number of agencies have policies that specify 9-pellet 00 for issued buckshot, and as with most things, big agency purchases carry a lot of weight.

This. Especially if the 9 pellet requirement is due to POST state’s Academy requirements.

[Guerrero]

I somehow stumbled upon the Milwaukee Police Department's policy (maybe when I was looking into the whole P320 thing), and I remember them specifying 9-pellet.

[Ed L]

I have heard that the 9 pellet load will cycle some guns that the 8 pellet load won't.

[Lon]

I have heard that the 9 pellet load will cycle some guns that the 8 pellet load won't.

Believe it or not my 1301 is finicky w 8 pellet. I’m gonna change the O ring when I have a chance and try it again. I bought it used and have no idea how many rounds went through it before I bought it.

[EzGoingKev]

I have heard that the 9 pellet load will cycle some guns that the 8 pellet load won't.
Drop the 9 pellet load.

Bump the velocity of the 8 pellet load.

Educate departments on why they need the 8 pellet load.

Problem solved.

[Snidely Whiplash]

Drop the 9 pellet load.

Bump the velocity of the 8 pellet load.

Educate departments on why they need the 8 pellet load.

Problem solved.


A Federal strong velocity, plated, 8 pellet loading of 00 Buck with the Flite-Control wad would have me buying many cases immediately upon release.

[luckyman]

Drop the 9 pellet load.

Bump the velocity of the 8 pellet load.

Educate departments on why they need the 8 pellet load.

Problem solved.

Except if you are the ammo company sales manager, one route lets you just accept a PO, and the other route forces your customer to spend money on testing, and opens up significant opportunities for your competitors. Ain’t gonna happen IMO.

[Lon]

Drop the 9 pellet load.

Bump the velocity of the 8 pellet load.

Educate departments on why they need the 8 pellet load.

Problem solved.

The shotgun is a dying platform in the LE world. Which is unfortunate. There aren’t enough forward thinking firearms guys and more importantly, enough forward thinking command level type guys around to make this happen. There haven’t been enough 9th pellet flyer related deaths or injuries to make command people seriously consider why they should change. It’s been fine for decades. Need more range? That’s why we have slugs.

The 9th pellet flyers are even covered in our statewide scoring for shotgun quals. It’s a 100% score to pass the state qual. Kinda. 1 pellet is allowed out of the scoring area per round without penalty if it’s obviously a flyer. And the state qual doesn’t shoot buckshot beyond 30’. Yes, 30 FEET.

101534

[UNM1136]

This is bad news...

But I still have a case or two of Magnum Rifled Slugs, given to replace qualification rounds I supplied to the agency during an ammo supply booboo. I don't particularly like Magnum slugs for general issue, so I took them. I think my great grandkids will be looking for people to unload them on...

While less than ideal, I am sure the planet will continue to turn...

pat

[UNM1136]

The shotgun is a dying platform in the LE world. Which is unfortunate. There aren’t enough forward thinking firearms guys and more importantly, enough forward thinking command level type guys around to make this happen. There haven’t been enough 9th pellet flyer related deaths or injuries to make command people seriously consider why they should change. It’s been fine for decades. Need more range? That’s why we have slugs.

The 9th pellet flyers are even covered in our statewide scoring for shotgun quals. It’s a 100% score to pass the state qual. Kinda. 1 pellet is allowed out of the scoring area per round without penalty if it’s obviously a flyer. And the state qual doesn’t shoot buckshot beyond 30’. Yes, 30 FEET.

101534

Is your shotgun (local agency, I much prefer the state qual, but my days of power and authority are gone) as lame as ours? 5 rounds (4+1 speedload) at 5 yards in 10 seconds...no slugs, and as long as the pellet holes are in the silhouette they count...think of a 12 gauge mag dump with one speed load. Timed with a sundial.

Makes me want to puke every time I shoot or call it...

There is a move to make all of our shotguns breaching guns, for patrol, or Less Lethal, also for patrol. More power to 'em, since our quals (borrowed from the largest agency in the state) are a hilarious joke....

pat

[Lon]

Is your shotgun (local agency, I much prefer the state qual, but my days of power and authority are gone) as lame as ours? 5 rounds (4+1 speedload) at 5 yards in 10 seconds...no slugs, and as long as the pellet holes are in the silhouette they count...think of a 12 gauge mag dump with one speed load. Timed with a sundial.

Makes me want to puke every time I shoot or call it...

There is a move to make all of our shotguns breaching guns, for patrol, or Less Lethal, also for patrol. More power to 'em, since our quals (borrowed from the largest agency in the state) are a hilarious joke....

pat

I think it’s a joke, but a lot of Officers struggle with it. Especially the slug stage. The reload blows their mind and they don’t aim correctly (top of receiver and post on pedestal for sights), which causes them to miss a slug high. Which is a fail.

We went less lethal across the board (except SWAT) once we got rifles 20 years ago. And those LL 870s are being replaced by LMT 40mm single shot launchers.
101535

[UNM1136]

We went less lethal across the board (except SWAT) once we got rifles 20 years ago. And those LL 870s are being replaced by LMT 40mm single shot

We have had 40mms for the last 5 years. All of our patrol guys' training has expired, as has our one instructor. Not a single launcher has seen the street. The brass claims that the instructor was no help in creating policy. The instructor claims the brass was no help in creating policy...despite the fact that the instructor and the brass are laterals...based on prior experience all either would have to do is call, their old agency, ask for their policy, present it and stamp it with our policy name...and bing...bang...boom... we now have rules to deploy consistent with surrounding agencies.

Doesn't help that someone ordered the wrong 40mm cartridges two years ago and no one could call, the distributor to send them back for the right ones...

The qual you posted is similar to our state qual...

pat

[SoCalDep]

The shotgun is a dying platform in the LE world. Which is unfortunate. There aren’t enough forward thinking firearms guys and more importantly, enough forward thinking command level type guys around to make this happen. There haven’t been enough 9th pellet flyer related deaths or injuries to make command people seriously consider why they should change. It’s been fine for decades. Need more range? That’s why we have slugs.

The 9th pellet flyers are even covered in our statewide scoring for shotgun quals. It’s a 100% score to pass the state qual. Kinda. 1 pellet is allowed out of the scoring area per round without penalty if it’s obviously a flyer. And the state qual doesn’t shoot buckshot beyond 30’. Yes, 30 FEET.

101534

I think the shotgun isn't necessarily a dying platform, but it's in serious condition and family is worried.

A big part of the problem is the "if it 'aint broke... don't fix it" mentality combined with institutional resistance to change and the dogma of the shotgun as a "legendary" tool. Now... One of my favorite patrol moments involved the appropriately threatened use of an Ithaca 37 and the suspect's clear deference to the "legend" of the street howitzer. That's not always the case, and times are a changin'.

So for the ain't broke don't fix crowd... the fact is the shotgun never was the primary tool for LE... It's always been the hangun, so the odds were in the favor of not having a big liability issue with the shotgun. Today that is compounded by the fact many (if not most depending on department culture) cops find the shotgun too heavy, complicated, and for those savvy enough to care, liability riddled and restricted by distance, capacity, recoil, and simplicity compared to more modern long guns (cough..cough.. AR-15), and that means the shotgun is deployed less and less... odds are not a problem if not used.

For the resistance to change crowd, the AR is "scary" and the shotgun is "classic". It's got a reputation of working, and since it isn't broke, any change is something scary, bringing with it the possibility of unknown consequences. That's a thing in LE, and those questions need to be answered, but I believe change is necessary because we (LE) are... in many cases, but not all... clinging to the idea that the shotgun is, as it is now, an easy known answer compared to other options.

Then there's the hardest position to address... and that's the dogmatic belief in the shotgun regardless of current information or evidence. The legend of the shotgun is a thing. I've seen it myself in that suspect I referenced. The history of the shotgun in American culture, military use, and law enforcement use is fascinating. Unfortunately it's lead some to believe that the shotgun has to be the answer rather than asking what the question is.

All three of these positions have pushed the shotgun close to critical condition in law enforcement because the shotgun hasn't had the focus that other platforms have, and that means, as Lon said, there is a bit of a dirth in forward thinking innovation in shotgun technology, and shotgun training is at a bit of a low point.

That's not to speak ill of the great instructors still doing good work... there's just too few of them compared to things like carbines and handguns and there isn't enough industry support right now. Hopefully that can change soon... if we in LE can change.

So to my position in opposition to the above...

The shotgun should no longer be the primary long gun for law enforcement use
The shotgun should NOT go away
It is a niche tool to be used by the informed, motivated, and skilled
In its lane nothing can match it
Outside its lane it can be used to great effect if one understands the limitations

The shotgun is king for big animals (among common LE guns) and big animals are a thing for LE. If you haven't heard of or researched the Zanesville incident, you should. Big animals are in lots of places you wouldn't think big animals are.

The shotgun has been considered great for moving targets since there's a "spread", but the idea that you "might" get one magic pellet is conversely that you "might" get one or more misses that you can't account for, so I don't buy that argument. Same goes for the idea that you "don't have to aim"... ha.. no.

For interior use, the shotgun isn't as deafening loud as a rifle caliber and it's pretty damn effective. Add to that the potential for seriously simple use of a break open action and it's a legitimate choice for the lesser trained home defender. For the trained user who doesn't have the luxury of hearing protection, a good shotgun indoors can be a great tool. I'd further argue that indoors in an LE situation the odds of a high-capacity gun battle, while not 0%, is markedly lower with a trained user with a good shotgun at close range.

So with that, what do we need with shotguns to keep them from "turning for the worst"...

I think this thread is part of the right track. We need a consistent and tight pattern so we can be accountable at reasonable distances. 8 pellet loads such as the Hornady TAP (with which I'm familiar) or Federal, with which I'd like to be, are a potential answer.

Better shotguns (like the Beretta 1301) push technological development and inspire competitive spirit in other manufacturers which is great.

Slug and buck development for accuracy, specificity, and recoil management should continue.

Optics and lights for shotguns need to meet carbine technology. I have an 870 with a WML and it's cool, but I'm building a Mossberg 590A1 with an optic and trying to set up a good light setup that matches what I have on some of my carbines. I haven't found any easy solutions like I can with the carbines, but I'm not giving up... If I can't then why choose it over a better option?

Most significantly for my specific experience is that the shotgun should absolutely not be a pool weapon. That's a huge liability risk. The shotgun should either be issued or personally purchased and zeroed/patterned with the specific load(s) used so the user understands where those rounds will hit at distances they will be responsible for being accountable. They need to train to be skilled enough to maximize the effectiveness of the shotgun at those distances and to understand the trifecta of gun/load/shooter.

At least in the departments with which I'm familiar this isn't common... and it pains me.

[UNM1136]

I think the shotgun isn't necessarily a dying platform, but it's in serious condition and family is worried.

A big part of the problem is the "if it 'aint broke... don't fix it" mentality combined with institutional resistance to change and the dogma of the shotgun as a "legendary" tool. Now... One of my favorite patrol moments involved the appropriately threatened use of an Ithaca 37 and the suspect's clear deference to the "legend" of the street howitzer. That's not always the case, and times are a changin'.

So for the ain't broke don't fix crowd... the fact is the shotgun never was the primary tool for LE... It's always been the hangun, so the odds were in the favor of not having a big liability issue with the shotgun. Today that is compounded by the fact many (if not most depending on department culture) cops find the shotgun too heavy, complicated, and for those savvy enough to care, liability riddled and restricted by distance, capacity, recoil, and simplicity compared to more modern long guns (cough..cough.. AR-15), and that means the shotgun is deployed less and less... odds are not a problem if not used.

For the resistance to change crowd, the AR is "scary" and the shotgun is "classic". It's got a reputation of working, and since it isn't broke, any change is something scary, bringing with it the possibility of unknown consequences. That's a thing in LE, and those questions need to be answered, but I believe change is necessary because we (LE) are... in many cases, but not all... clinging to the idea that the shotgun is, as it is now, an easy known answer compared to other options.

Then there's the hardest position to address... and that's the dogmatic belief in the shotgun regardless of current information or evidence. The legend of the shotgun is a thing. I've seen it myself in that suspect I referenced. The history of the shotgun in American culture, military use, and law enforcement use is fascinating. Unfortunately it's lead some to believe that the shotgun has to be the answer rather than asking what the question is.

All three of these positions have pushed the shotgun close to critical condition in law enforcement because the shotgun hasn't had the focus that other platforms have, and that means, as Lon said, there is a bit of a dirth in forward thinking innovation in shotgun technology, and shotgun training is at a bit of a low point.

That's not to speak ill of the great instructors still doing good work... there's just too few of them compared to things like carbines and handguns and there isn't enough industry support right now. Hopefully that can change soon... if we in LE can change.

So to my position in opposition to the above...

The shotgun should no longer be the primary long gun for law enforcement use
The shotgun should NOT go away
It is a niche tool to be used by the informed, motivated, and skilled
In its lane nothing can match it
Outside its lane it can be used to great effect if one understands the limitations

The shotgun is king for big animals (among common LE guns) and big animals are a thing for LE. If you haven't heard of or researched the Zanesville incident, you should. Big animals are in lots of places you wouldn't thing big animals are.

The shotgun has been considered great for moving targets since there's a "spread", but the idea that you "might" get one magic pellet is conversely that you "might" get one or more misses that you can't account for, so I don't buy that argument. Same goes for the idea that you "don't have to aim"... ha.. no.

For interior use, the shotgun isn't as deafening loud as a rifle caliber and it's pretty damn effective. Add to that the potential for seriously simple use of a break open action and it's a legitimate choice for the lesser trained home defender. For the trained user who doesn't have the luxury of hearing protection, a good shotgun indoors can be a great tool. I'd further argue that indoors in an LE situation the odds of a high-capacity gun battle, while not 0%, is markedly lower with a trained user with a good shotgun at close range.

So with that, what do we need with shotguns to keep them from "turning for the worst"...

I think this thread is part of the right track. We need a consistent and tight pattern so we can be accountable at reasonable distances. 8 pellet loads such as the Hornady TAP (with which I'm familiar) or Federal, with which I'd like to be, are a potential answer.

Better shotguns (like the Beretta 1301) push technological development and inspire competitive spirit in other manufacturers which is great.

Slug and buck development for accuracy, specificity, and recoil management should continue.

Optics and lights for shotguns need to meet carbine technology. I have an 870 with a WML and it's cool, but I'm building a Mossberg 590A1 with an optic and trying to set up a good light setup that matches what I have on some of my carbines. I haven't found any easy solutions like I can with the carbines, but I'm not giving up... If I can't then why choose it over a better option?

Most significantly for my specific experience is that the shotgun should absolutely not be a pool weapon. That's a huge liability risk. The shotgun should either be issued or personally purchased and zeroed/patterned with the specific load(s) used so the user understands where those rounds will hit at distances they will be responsible for being accountable. They need to train to be skilled enough to maximize the effectiveness of the shotgun at those distances and to understand the trifecta of gun/load/shooter.

At least in the departments with which I'm familiar this isn't common... and it pains me.

Quoted cuz I couldn't like it again.

pat

[Lon]

The shotgun is king for big animals (among common LE guns) and big animals are a thing for LE. If you haven't heard of or researched the Zanesville incident, you should. Big animals are in lots of places you wouldn't think big animals are.


Zanesville isn’t that far from my AO. Not too long after that mess and after they changed the law, our team was asked to execute. Search warrant for the Ohio Department of Agriculture. Crazy dude that was supposed to have some unregistered big cats. I’d been to his place years before for a barn fire/arson investigation. Watched his tiger kill his black bear and drag it off to eat it. Anyway, we met with the DoA guys a couple days before the op to talk about putting down the cats (if they were there) if need be. They all suggested shotguns w slugs. Up to that point, my agency SWAT guys hadn’t used shotguns for anything other than breaching and LL for over a decade. Needless to say, we scrambled to qualify (had to get ammo from our county teammates).

I’ve carried slugs in my duty bag ever since then. Just in case.

I’ve got a copy of the Zanesville report somewhere. I’ll see if I can find it.

If you’re wondering, the only big cat in the barn was his dead lion. Still in the sarcophagus it was in the last time I was there. Weird dude.

[LHS]

There's a lot of truth there.

I'll add some more. A lot of places 'familiarize' with the shotgun vs. qualing with the pistol, both because recruits tend to get brutalized by the gauge without adequate training (and with old-school way-too-long buttstocks that don't fit Shaq, much less the small-framed officers), and because rangemasters/instructors hate trying to count all those pellets in a target. That's a definite disservice to officers who may one day need what a shotgun can bring, but because of bad experiences in training, are liable to leave it in the cruiser. The gauge isn't the be-all-end-all of police longarms, no matter how much I adore it. The AR is here to stay, and rightfully so, but the shotgun has its place that is sadly neglected by most.


I think the shotgun isn't necessarily a dying platform, but it's in serious condition and family is worried.

A big part of the problem is the "if it 'aint broke... don't fix it" mentality combined with institutional resistance to change and the dogma of the shotgun as a "legendary" tool. Now... One of my favorite patrol moments involved the appropriately threatened use of an Ithaca 37 and the suspect's clear deference to the "legend" of the street howitzer. That's not always the case, and times are a changin'.

So for the ain't broke don't fix crowd... the fact is the shotgun never was the primary tool for LE... It's always been the hangun, so the odds were in the favor of not having a big liability issue with the shotgun. Today that is compounded by the fact many (if not most depending on department culture) cops find the shotgun too heavy, complicated, and for those savvy enough to care, liability riddled and restricted by distance, capacity, recoil, and simplicity compared to more modern long guns (cough..cough.. AR-15), and that means the shotgun is deployed less and less... odds are not a problem if not used.

For the resistance to change crowd, the AR is "scary" and the shotgun is "classic". It's got a reputation of working, and since it isn't broke, any change is something scary, bringing with it the possibility of unknown consequences. That's a thing in LE, and those questions need to be answered, but I believe change is necessary because we (LE) are... in many cases, but not all... clinging to the idea that the shotgun is, as it is now, an easy known answer compared to other options.

Then there's the hardest position to address... and that's the dogmatic belief in the shotgun regardless of current information or evidence. The legend of the shotgun is a thing. I've seen it myself in that suspect I referenced. The history of the shotgun in American culture, military use, and law enforcement use is fascinating. Unfortunately it's lead some to believe that the shotgun has to be the answer rather than asking what the question is.

All three of these positions have pushed the shotgun close to critical condition in law enforcement because the shotgun hasn't had the focus that other platforms have, and that means, as Lon said, there is a bit of a dirth in forward thinking innovation in shotgun technology, and shotgun training is at a bit of a low point.

That's not to speak ill of the great instructors still doing good work... there's just too few of them compared to things like carbines and handguns and there isn't enough industry support right now. Hopefully that can change soon... if we in LE can change.

So to my position in opposition to the above...

The shotgun should no longer be the primary long gun for law enforcement use
The shotgun should NOT go away
It is a niche tool to be used by the informed, motivated, and skilled
In its lane nothing can match it
Outside its lane it can be used to great effect if one understands the limitations

The shotgun is king for big animals (among common LE guns) and big animals are a thing for LE. If you haven't heard of or researched the Zanesville incident, you should. Big animals are in lots of places you wouldn't think big animals are.

The shotgun has been considered great for moving targets since there's a "spread", but the idea that you "might" get one magic pellet is conversely that you "might" get one or more misses that you can't account for, so I don't buy that argument. Same goes for the idea that you "don't have to aim"... ha.. no.

For interior use, the shotgun isn't as deafening loud as a rifle caliber and it's pretty damn effective. Add to that the potential for seriously simple use of a break open action and it's a legitimate choice for the lesser trained home defender. For the trained user who doesn't have the luxury of hearing protection, a good shotgun indoors can be a great tool. I'd further argue that indoors in an LE situation the odds of a high-capacity gun battle, while not 0%, is markedly lower with a trained user with a good shotgun at close range.

So with that, what do we need with shotguns to keep them from "turning for the worst"...

I think this thread is part of the right track. We need a consistent and tight pattern so we can be accountable at reasonable distances. 8 pellet loads such as the Hornady TAP (with which I'm familiar) or Federal, with which I'd like to be, are a potential answer.

Better shotguns (like the Beretta 1301) push technological development and inspire competitive spirit in other manufacturers which is great.

Slug and buck development for accuracy, specificity, and recoil management should continue.

Optics and lights for shotguns need to meet carbine technology. I have an 870 with a WML and it's cool, but I'm building a Mossberg 590A1 with an optic and trying to set up a good light setup that matches what I have on some of my carbines. I haven't found any easy solutions like I can with the carbines, but I'm not giving up... If I can't then why choose it over a better option?

Most significantly for my specific experience is that the shotgun should absolutely not be a pool weapon. That's a huge liability risk. The shotgun should either be issued or personally purchased and zeroed/patterned with the specific load(s) used so the user understands where those rounds will hit at distances they will be responsible for being accountable. They need to train to be skilled enough to maximize the effectiveness of the shotgun at those distances and to understand the trifecta of gun/load/shooter.

At least in the departments with which I'm familiar this isn't common... and it pains me.

[LHS]

I have heard that the 9 pellet load will cycle some guns that the 8 pellet load won't.

This is true. Most 1301s I've seen will run it, but not all, so it's likely on the ragged edge of the operating envelope to cycle the gun. My VEPR SBS will run the low-recoil 9-pellet, but not the 8. There's a definite difference in perceived recoil out of pump guns with it (one of the many reasons I love the 8-pellet so much).

[DamonL]

SoCalDep

I agree a lot with what you posted. I have met a very few agents who just prefer the shotgun as their long gun of choice. Your post makes me curious if you know more about the LAPD Benelli M4 shotgun program or if your agency had a similar program. I know for handguns, if you can qualify to a higher standard and take additional training, you can use the 1911 pistol. The Benelli M4 program is the same. If you qualify to a higher standard, you can privately purchase and use that gun. I think that extra step helps select someone who is a motivated end-user. I haven’t really heard anything about the LAPD program so I don’t know if the Benelli and semi-auto shotguns in police use is a success or not. If you have any insight, I would be curious to learn more. Maybe we should start a different thread for this.

[Tannhauser]

Drop the 9 pellet load.

Bump the velocity of the 8 pellet load.

Educate departments on why they need the 8 pellet load.

Problem solved.

Stop with your logic and common sense! ;) The firearms industry rarely runs on either of those things unfortunately.

[diananike]

I can’t afford enough of the 8 pellet flitecontrol to sufficiently test my 1301s reliability to the point I feel comfortable using it.
I therefore use the 9 pellet which also shoots very soft and tight.

[UNM1136]

There's a lot of truth there.

I'll add some more. A lot of places 'familiarize' with the shotgun vs. qualing with the pistol, both because recruits tend to get brutalized by the gauge without adequate training (and with old-school way-too-long buttstocks that don't fit Shaq, much less the small-framed officers), and because rangemasters/instructors hate trying to count all those pellets in a target. That's a definite disservice to officers who may one day need what a shotgun can bring, but because of bad experiences in training, are liable to leave it in the cruiser. The gauge isn't the be-all-end-all of police longarms, no matter how much I adore it. The AR is here to stay, and rightfully so, but the shotgun has its place that is sadly neglected by most.

During my state shotgun instructor course I bruised my collar bone the first day, from prone, at 100 yards with magnum slugs. Bad enough that I shot the remainder of the course left handed...really glad I did, even though extending the lesson has made me buy a bunch left handed holsters.

I managed with longer stocks, but much prefer shorter stocks.

pat

[jnc36rcpd]

Many years ago, the Montgomery County (MD) Police developed a plan to issue Benelli shotguns to the better shotgunners in patrol and convert the 870's to less-lethal. When the chief asked why they needed the Benelli rather than another 870, the response was that to motivate the shotgunners, they had to be issued something cool. (I actually heard that conversation personally.)

I think the plan went operational, but I don't believe anyone ever used a beanbag shotgun. Actually, I don't think I ever saw a Benelli in the wild.

I believe MCPD still trains with the shotgun in entry level training, but almost no one carries them. The AR-15 is the long gun of choice.

We issued shotguns to those who wanted them at my former employer. We would also also mandated WML's and slings. Even though not everyone wanted a shotgun, we required them to run through the Q course. Failure WAS an option if you didn't have a shotgun, but we felt we should try to keep people at least somewhat proficient even if we'd need to work with them if they opted to carry a shotgun in the future. When trouble was afoot (e.g.: the Beltway sniper case), it was amazing who suddenly wanted a gauge with them.

[Ed L]

This is true. Most 1301s I've seen will run it, but not all, so it's likely on the ragged edge of the operating envelope to cycle the gun. My VEPR SBS will run the low-recoil 9-pellet, but not the 8. There's a definite difference in perceived recoil out of pump guns with it (one of the many reasons I love the 8-pellet so much).

I have run at least 100 rounds of 8 pellet flight control through my 1301 without a single problem. But knowing that the ammo is on the ragged edge of the operating envelope makes me distrust it and go with the 9 pellet load. In the past few weeks I have experienced major shoulder and back problems with a high level of pain that radiates to my neck. An MRI showed that my right shoulder has tendonitis, bursitis, and arthritis. But we are still waiting for the MRI reading on my neck. At this point I am going to see an orthopedic specialist who will probably treat the pain with some type of steroid injection(s). But this means that shotguns are a no-go for me in the future.

[Paul Blackburn]

The 8 pellet is 1145 FPS. The 9 pellet is available in both 1145 and 1325 FPS.

[Paul Blackburn]

I think the shotgun isn't necessarily a dying platform, but it's in serious condition and family is worried.

A big part of the problem is the "if it 'aint broke... don't fix it" mentality combined with institutional resistance to change and the dogma of the shotgun as a "legendary" tool. Now... One of my favorite patrol moments involved the appropriately threatened use of an Ithaca 37 and the suspect's clear deference to the "legend" of the street howitzer. That's not always the case, and times are a changin'.

So for the ain't broke don't fix crowd... the fact is the shotgun never was the primary tool for LE... It's always been the hangun, so the odds were in the favor of not having a big liability issue with the shotgun. Today that is compounded by the fact many (if not most depending on department culture) cops find the shotgun too heavy, complicated, and for those savvy enough to care, liability riddled and restricted by distance, capacity, recoil, and simplicity compared to more modern long guns (cough..cough.. AR-15), and that means the shotgun is deployed less and less... odds are not a problem if not used.

For the resistance to change crowd, the AR is "scary" and the shotgun is "classic". It's got a reputation of working, and since it isn't broke, any change is something scary, bringing with it the possibility of unknown consequences. That's a thing in LE, and those questions need to be answered, but I believe change is necessary because we (LE) are... in many cases, but not all... clinging to the idea that the shotgun is, as it is now, an easy known answer compared to other options.

Then there's the hardest position to address... and that's the dogmatic belief in the shotgun regardless of current information or evidence. The legend of the shotgun is a thing. I've seen it myself in that suspect I referenced. The history of the shotgun in American culture, military use, and law enforcement use is fascinating. Unfortunately it's lead some to believe that the shotgun has to be the answer rather than asking what the question is.

All three of these positions have pushed the shotgun close to critical condition in law enforcement because the shotgun hasn't had the focus that other platforms have, and that means, as Lon said, there is a bit of a dirth in forward thinking innovation in shotgun technology, and shotgun training is at a bit of a low point.

That's not to speak ill of the great instructors still doing good work... there's just too few of them compared to things like carbines and handguns and there isn't enough industry support right now. Hopefully that can change soon... if we in LE can change.

So to my position in opposition to the above...

The shotgun should no longer be the primary long gun for law enforcement use
The shotgun should NOT go away
It is a niche tool to be used by the informed, motivated, and skilled
In its lane nothing can match it
Outside its lane it can be used to great effect if one understands the limitations

The shotgun is king for big animals (among common LE guns) and big animals are a thing for LE. If you haven't heard of or researched the Zanesville incident, you should. Big animals are in lots of places you wouldn't think big animals are.

The shotgun has been considered great for moving targets since there's a "spread", but the idea that you "might" get one magic pellet is conversely that you "might" get one or more misses that you can't account for, so I don't buy that argument. Same goes for the idea that you "don't have to aim"... ha.. no.

For interior use, the shotgun isn't as deafening loud as a rifle caliber and it's pretty damn effective. Add to that the potential for seriously simple use of a break open action and it's a legitimate choice for the lesser trained home defender. For the trained user who doesn't have the luxury of hearing protection, a good shotgun indoors can be a great tool. I'd further argue that indoors in an LE situation the odds of a high-capacity gun battle, while not 0%, is markedly lower with a trained user with a good shotgun at close range.

So with that, what do we need with shotguns to keep them from "turning for the worst"...

I think this thread is part of the right track. We need a consistent and tight pattern so we can be accountable at reasonable distances. 8 pellet loads such as the Hornady TAP (with which I'm familiar) or Federal, with which I'd like to be, are a potential answer.

Better shotguns (like the Beretta 1301) push technological development and inspire competitive spirit in other manufacturers which is great.

Slug and buck development for accuracy, specificity, and recoil management should continue.

Optics and lights for shotguns need to meet carbine technology. I have an 870 with a WML and it's cool, but I'm building a Mossberg 590A1 with an optic and trying to set up a good light setup that matches what I have on some of my carbines. I haven't found any easy solutions like I can with the carbines, but I'm not giving up... If I can't then why choose it over a better option?

Most significantly for my specific experience is that the shotgun should absolutely not be a pool weapon. That's a huge liability risk. The shotgun should either be issued or personally purchased and zeroed/patterned with the specific load(s) used so the user understands where those rounds will hit at distances they will be responsible for being accountable. They need to train to be skilled enough to maximize the effectiveness of the shotgun at those distances and to understand the trifecta of gun/load/shooter.

At least in the departments with which I'm familiar this isn't common... and it pains me.

I would add teaching the push/pull method to new shooters so they know how to mitigate the recoil instead of just absorbing it and then avoiding the shotgun all together.

[voyager3]

FWIW just had my order for LE133 ship from one of the online ammo stores easily found via the usual aggregators, so hopefully the nature is healing.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

During my state shotgun instructor course I bruised my collar bone the first day, from prone, at 100 yards with magnum slugs. Bad enough that I shot the remainder of the course left handed...really glad I did, even though extending the lesson has made me buy a bunch left handed holsters.

I managed with longer stocks, but much prefer shorter stocks.

pat

A friend of mine was shooting a military/police shotgun match and had to shoot under a car lying on the ground. He didn't get a solid positioning on the gun and dislocated his collar bone.

[Glock1097]

I would add teaching the push/pull method to new shooters so they know how to mitigate the recoil instead of just absorbing it and then avoiding the shotgun all together.

I was trained in the ‘push pull method’ at the academy in 76. It has served me well to this day even with rotator cuff issues. I feel it the next day but I survive. Definite need to invest in flite control loads for future outings.

[Whiskey]

For anyone looking, Recoil Gunworks has 8 pellet in stock in 5 round boxes. https://www.recoilgunworks.com/federal-le-tactical-12ga-2-75-8-pellet-00-buck/

First time I have seen it in stock anywhere (fairly new to using shotguns for serious work.)

[TCinVA]

For anyone looking, Recoil Gunworks has 8 pellet in stock in 5 round boxes. https://www.recoilgunworks.com/federal-le-tactical-12ga-2-75-8-pellet-00-buck/

First time I have seen it in stock anywhere (fairly new to using shotguns for serious work.)

Thankfully I have four cases of pre-pandemic 8 pellet FFC that I don't plan to dip into unless necessary.

That being said, I ordered two sleeves to see how this performs. Given that I've noted a bit of a drop in the performance of FFC post-pandemic, I'm hoping that 8 pellet was rare for a while because maybe they were tweaking it to boost performance.

Or I could just be high on sizzurp.

[Hambo]

I don't have much LE13300, so I patterned the more available PD13200 (9 pellet copper plated). I'm going to try them through some other guns, but they're closer to the same than LE13300 and L13200 (maybe copper plating helps). I'm calling off the search for 13300.

[167]

Thankfully I have four cases of pre-pandemic 8 pellet FFC that I don't plan to dip into unless necessary.

That being said, I ordered two sleeves to see how this performs. Given that I've noted a bit of a drop in the performance of FFC post-pandemic, I'm hoping that 8 pellet was rare for a while because maybe they were tweaking it to boost performance.

Or I could just be high on sizzurp.

Be sure to let us know. I held off on this last batch to hit because I was just kinda “meh, I doubt it is fixed.”

[Whiskey]

I didnt shoot a lot because I don't have a lot, but the stuff I just bought shot well from 10-20 yards. At 25 yards I got one pellet that flew about 10 inches away from the other seven that were still in a group I could cover with my hand.

I literally only shot one round every 5 yards to get an idea, so it was an extremely small sample size. I feel comfortable with it for my HD purposes.

[Magsz]

Recoil Gunworks has the 8 pellet Fed load in stock.

[tactical1]

https://www.recoilgunworks (dot) com/tactical-le-12ga-2-75-8-pellet-00-buck-le13300/

No experience with the company other than placing an order for 2 sleeves scheduled for delivery 12_8 via FedEx

[H8Train]

https://www.recoilgunworks (dot) com/tactical-le-12ga-2-75-8-pellet-00-buck-le13300/

No experience with the company other than placing an order for 2 sleeves scheduled for delivery 12_8 via FedEx

They are good to go, I have multiple orders over the years with them. I also ordered a sleeve that should be here tommorow as well.

[tactical1]

Excellent transaction with Recoil Gun Works; prompt shipping and shipping updates via FedEx automatically sent - very professional and pleasant transaction

[BobM]

Excellent transaction with Recoil Gun Works; prompt shipping and shipping updates via FedEx automatically sent - very professional and pleasant transaction

Same. Ordered two sleeves two days ago, arrived this afternoon

[Magsz]

I have some of the 8 pellet Hornady loads that i'll be comparing this to.

[ROK]

1234

[ROK]

Recoil Gunworks has the 8 pellet Fed load in stock.

Ordered this AM.

[Jamie]

I've received a couple of orders of the LE133 from Recoil.
Positive experience and fast shipping even this time of year.

That round patterns remarkably tight out of my Shockwave...remarkably.

[MDFA]

I have some LE133 coming from Lucky Gunner.

[tactical1]

https://www.luckygunner.com/12-ga-2-3-4-00-buck-federal-8p-law-enforcement-flitecontrol-wad-5-round

[Guerrero]

https://www.luckygunner.com/12-ga-2-3-4-00-buck-federal-8p-law-enforcement-flitecontrol-wad-5-round

$2/round

Ouch.