$100 Field Pistol

[GJM]

The field pistol concept, is a semi auto handgun, that is reliable, can be shot well, and has the ability to launch bullets that penetrate well. I have another thread going, testing two 10mm pistols as field pistols, but I believe this Underwood 147+P coated hard cast load gives your regular 9mm, field pistol capability. The reason I call this the $100 field pistol, is for about $100 you can buy 100 rounds of this load, test four magazines in your pistol, and have a few magazines of it for carry when you want a penetrating load.

https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-147gr.-flat-nose-black-cherry-coated-hard-cast-hunting-ammo/

I shot a ten round group with this load, freestyle from 25 yards, with a Glock 19 yesterday. It shoots POI to other loads like 124 Lawman and 124+P Gold Dot.

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Back in 2019, 5pins from PF, tested this load (prior to it getting Underwood's latest coating over the hard cast), and it had excellent penetration. You should peruse his testing results while there, as there is a lot of interesting information.

https://general-cartridge.com/2019/06/11/underwood-9mm-40-sw-hard-cast-in-clear-ballistics-gel/

I have no connection with Underwood, other than I have been buying their loaded ammo for years, with complete satisfaction.

I have shot enough of this load in Glock 19 OEM barrels, and through the Mayhem barrel and comp, to feel good about reliability in the Glock 19, but if you decide to test this concept, I would appreciate you reporting your results here. I would love to capture information on reliability and POI for as many different type pistols as possible.

Previously, I was carrying the Underwood Lehigh Xtreme penetrator load. It functioned in a wide range of 9mm pistols, but it is twice the cost of the hard cast load, and in 5pins' testing, didn't penetrate nearly as well as the hard cast load.

PS, Underwood has a 15 percent off Valentines Day sale today, if you want to try some of this load.

[rjohnson4405]

After getting rid of my HK45C I was running with Buffalo Bore hard cast 45 Supers this is the road I'm headed down.

Planning a hike in the rockies this summer, where I always have a "bear" load on hand so I'll be testing (probably Lost River's version of this) in an M&P 2.0 4.25 9mm.

[ECVMatt]

Thanks for the post.

I have shot/hunted with the 10mm and other BB handguns and still enjoy shooting them. However as I get a bit older, I enjoy shooting my 9mm's more and more. I also like to keep things simpler on trips and don't like to brings tons of different guns, ammo types, magazines, holsters, etc. I am gravitating more and more to my Gen 5 19 and 45 as good companions for most of my activities.

I am not giving up my 10 or any of my BB handguns any time soon, but also don't feel under armed with a vetted 9mm stoked with the appropriate ammo.

[RevolverRob]

I honestly thought this was going to be $100 Field Pistol, because it was going to be the new 10mm Hi-Point...

[luckyman]

Dang it, I had just stocked up on the Xtreme penetrator load.

[Clusterfrack]

I'm still not convinced that 147 lead hardcast is better than XP for penetrating bear skulls without deflecting.

[WDR]

I'm still not convinced that 147 lead hardcast is better than XP for penetrating bear skulls without deflecting.

Sectional density is greater with a 147gr lead bullet, vs a 115gr copper. Depending on how hard the lead is, I don't imagine the differences in bullet deformation would matter much. Sheer penetration in gel may not tell the whole story. Think about rifle bullets and hard armor penetration, where the 55gr M193 penetrates steel better than 62gr M855 with a steel core. Velocity makes the difference, not bullet construction.

Short of actually shooting bears in the face for science, we may not answer this conclusively.

[MickAK]

I'm still not convinced that 147 lead hardcast is better than XP for penetrating bear skulls without deflecting.

I'm not sure that would be the problem.

I'm not convinced it's as reliable in adverse conditions or with a less than ideal grip. My nightmare scenario is letting off a warning shot that provokes a charge in addition to causing a malfunction that I get run over clearing.

But, I spent a lot of money testing the XP for reliability and if I hadn't already done that I might be more interested in testing the hardcast. I'm definitely following GJMs work with interest and I appreciate his thoroughness in solving this problem.

[willie]

Reloaders who shoot 9mm 147 grain cast bullets often discover that CZ pistols will not function with their hand loads. The reason is that CZ chambers are shorter than most other brands. CZ owners might verify before buying this ammo.

Cast bullet penetration requires more than just hardness. Hard can include brittle. Brittle bullets can break up when hitting bone. Too much antimony in the alloy will make a hard bullet brittle. Because lead bullets are "slicker" than jacketed bullets, they create less friction in the bore and thus attain higher velocity with the same pressure. If I wanted a super penetrating jacketed bullet, I would locate the desired shape and weight, squeeze it down to .353 using a special die, and then load the bullet behind a maximum plus charge of Blue Dot. Accurate? I doubt it, but I'd get penetration because this thing would be fast.

[Clusterfrack]

Sectional density is greater with a 147gr lead bullet, vs a 115gr copper. Depending on how hard the lead is, I don't imagine the differences in bullet deformation would matter much. Sheer penetration in gel may not tell the whole story. Think about rifle bullets and hard armor penetration, where the 55gr M193 penetrates steel better than 62gr M855 with a steel core. Velocity makes the difference, not bullet construction.

Short of actually shooting bears in the face for science, we may not answer this conclusively.

Velocity and sharp edges of the bullet were what I was thinking about. Underwood/Lehigh XP 115 +p+ velocity is 1300fps from my P-07. As well as testing those, I made a bunch of 115 XP handloads using AA#7 and didn't have a single malfunction no matter what I did.

[GJM]

Velocity and sharp edges of the bullet were what I was thinking about. Underwood/Lehigh XP 115 +p+ velocity is 1300fps from my P-07. As well as testing those, I made a bunch of 115 XP handloads using AA#7 and didn't have a single malfunction no matter what I did.

How do you reconcile 5pins' testing, that shows the 147+P Underwood hard cast load penetrating on the order of 2X the Lehigh penetrator bullets? My recollection is this goes for pretty much every caliber.

[GJM]

Small sample, but I shot twenty rounds of the Underwood 147+P through this Macro like 365 this afternoon. No stoppages. It was quite windy, but POI seemed a bit left, of my Gold Dot zero, although not so far that it would cause me concern. This is freestyle at 20 yards.

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[Clusterfrack]

How do you reconcile 5pins' testing, that shows the 147+P Underwood hard cast load penetrating on the order of 2X the Lehigh penetrator bullets? My recollection is this goes for pretty much every caliber.

I believe it. Heavy bullets typically penetrate better.

However, for this application penetration depth isn't the main requirement. A grizzly head shot requires:
1) Doesn't deflect on impact to skull
2) Penetrates skull
3) Reaches brain

What would you estimate the max penetration depth required for that would be? Maybe 16-24"?

[GJM]

I believe it. Heavy bullets typically penetrate better.

However, for this application penetration depth isn't the main requirement. A grizzly head shot requires:
1) Doesn't deflect on impact to skull
2) Penetrates skull
3) Reaches brain

What would you estimate the max penetration depth required for that would be? Maybe 16-24"?

Hard cast bullets at modest velocities have been killing lots of big stuff for more than a century. Last I heard, no single Garrett bullet had been recovered from a Cape buffalo, meaning all completely penetrated and exited. When my wife I put a hurting on a grizzly with .45-70 lever guns, every bullet exited. I once shot a mule deer up the butt with a Garrett bullet in .44, and it traveled the length of the deer and exited.

As to whether the Lehigh will reach the brain, I don't know. What I do know, given how underpowered service pistols are, if I have something that penetrates twice as far, AND is reliable, that is a no brainer for me.

[03RN]

If i was stuck with 9mm I'd carry the underwood or buffalo bore 147gr load

[Salamander]

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment:

Background, this is from the perspective of a past president of the local Wildlife Society chapter, who has managed biologists for 35 years, and who frequently hikes in the backcountry in a region where (black) bear are fairly abundant. While my areas of expertise do not really include anatomy at more than a basic level, I probably know more about wildlife than I do about pistols.

The nearest brown bear skull to where I'm sitting is at my favorite coffee place on Main Street, the owner spends lots of time in the Aleutians and brought back this skull-as-artwork, created by a native as indicated on the sign. Probably the prettiest and most creative grizzly skull I've seen. In any case I grabbed a tape measure and ran the six blocks over there to take this very quick photo while several patrons watched with extreme curiosity:

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So, first question/comment, while I agree that more penetration may be a good thing with a charging bear, do I really need 64 inches of penetration to reach the brain inside a 10-inch long skull? Less than that for the comparatively puny black bears where I usually hike? When 5pins testing got 47 inches in bare gel and 16.5 inches through steel into gel with Underwood 115gr XP?

Next comment: California mandates non-lead for hunting. The regs are ambiguous for self defense, so last year I took advantage of my TWS and work connections and talked it over with a couple of CDFW game wardens who I interact with professionally on a frequent basis. The consensus was that they agree the regs aren't clear, thus it's up to each individual warden, thus their recommendation was carry non-lead to minimize hassle.

That's perhaps more important here than in much of the state, because we're near a recent condor release area. Enforcement might be more likely, but for me it's really more about respect for the tribes running that release program. Not only are they friends, but they offer free non-lead ammo informational opportunities at TWS and other local events, including exchange programs when they have grant funding, a box of non-lead for a box of lead.

So, my personal choice is to carry non-lead in the backcountry. Depending on the situation that's one of the following things: 9mm XP in a USP Compact; handloaded 45 Super behind Cutting Edge Solids projectiles, which delivered something like 23.5 inches of penetration in 5pins testing, loaded in my USP FS 45; one of several 357 Magnum non-lead choices (140gr XP, 140gr Barnes XPB HP, or the now available factory loaded 140gr Cutting Edge solid) in a 3-inch revolver; or, HP or solid 45 Colt loads in a 625 Mountain Gun.

I'm pretty much set on those options for now, I'm done chasing the flavor of the month. Later there will probably be a shift to something with a RDS but that's going to be a slow and deliberate process and with one of the existing ammo options.

ETA: A consideration for those running Glocks in the increasing number of capacity restricted states, whatever you decide to try if it's in Glock 10-round mags test it first. My last G19 (gen 2) ran fine with standard capacity mags but choked on anything HP or large flat meplat in the 10 round mags. That would be a very bad thing to learn when that bear charges.

[GJM]

Not sure if is correlated, but states with grizzly bears tend to have less restrictive firearms laws. There is probably enough lead in my Brenneke shotgun load out, that California would consider me a Superfund site.

Frankly, I am carrying JHP unless there are grizzly bears around.

[Clusterfrack]

Salamander, the idea that using a lead bullet in a life saving event could be a problem is truly absurd. Sorry you have to deal with that.

[Salamander]

Salamander, the idea that using a lead bullet in a life saving event could be a problem is truly absurd. Sorry you have to deal with that.

Yep. If I get kilt in the woodz blame the State of California. At least the winters are mild....

[WDR]

One thing that gets glossed over when you start focusing on one target: there is a lot more inches of bear behind and adjacent to the skull, besides whatever it takes to break the brain pan. Personally, if my shots miss the head, or all I have is a body shot, I want as much penetration as I can get.

A solid copper bullet interests me. I've been eyeballing some of the Cutting Edge .357 bullets myself, but I'm not spending much time in grizzly country, and those copper solids get spendy fast, when it's really and edge use case for me. I am far more likely to bump into a cougar, or maybe a black bear in my areas.

Solid copper makes less sense in a 9x19 case, as they eat up so much of the case capacity and drive pressures up. I'm not sure you can get much more than a 125ish solid copper up to reasonable speeds in a 9x19 without 9mm Major pressures. The sharp edges, and lack of much deformation eppeal to me. If they made a thick copper jacketed bullet with a locked in lead core to boost sectional density up, I'd be all over it. But such a thing would likely cost significantly more than plain lead or the solid copper designs.

Full circle: You can shoot more Underwood or Lost River 9mm hardcasts for your dollar, versus the solid copper stuff. GJM 's point still stands. You are probably looking at a 90% solution for your everyday Joe who wanders into the woods bowhunting Montana, or backpacking Yellowstone, and he's probably already got a plastic 9mm people popper he's familiar with, and can afford a 100rds of new 9mm, a lot more than he can afford a new Glock 20, or a big bore Smith he probably won't shoot enough to be proficient with.

I will be honest, my Glock 19's have long been my "Mountain Guns"... They are not nearly as sexy as a .44 or .45 with a round butt and a pencil barrel, but I feel confident I can make due with my ugly duckling, if needs be.

[03RN]

I once had a federal 9mm 147gr fmj fp fail to penetrate a fisher cat skull at 1 foot . It didn't even knock it out. It slid around the skull and ran down the back and exited out the tail.

[Salamander]

Not sure if is correlated, but states with grizzly bears tend to have less restrictive firearms laws. There is probably enough lead in my Brenneke shotgun load out, that California would consider me a Superfund site.

Frankly, I am carrying JHP unless there are grizzly bears around.

That's an important point. For those not in Alaska or the northern Rockies the choices are easier, for example in my old Midwest haunts I'd be fine hiking with a 38 sp, nothing bigger than coyotes there and in general four-legged critters would be a secondary concern. On the relatively rare occasions when I'm hiking in grizzly country I'd 1) research the regs but am almost certain you're correct about few restrictions; and 2) if at all practical the pistol would be a backup to a long gun.

FWIW, some years back a bunch of us went up to Glacier NP for a few days after a Soc. for Conservation Biology meeting in Missoula, I hiked mostly with a good friend from the Field Museum and often saw others from the meeting. Everyone was being very careful about bears each in their own way. Lots of respect for brown bears from those very knowledgeable people.

[GJM]

That's an important point. For those not in Alaska or the northern Rockies the choices are easier, for example in my old Midwest haunts I'd be fine hiking with a 38 sp, nothing bigger than coyotes there and in general four-legged critters would be a secondary concern. On the relatively rare occasions when I'm hiking in grizzly country I'd 1) research the regs but am almost certain you're correct about few restrictions; and 2) if at all practical the pistol would be a backup to a long gun.

FWIW, some years back a bunch of us went up to Glacier NP for a few days after a Soc. for Conservation Biology meeting in Missoula, I hiked mostly with a good friend from the Field Museum and often saw others from the meeting. Everyone was being very careful about bears each in their own way. Lots of respect for brown bears from those very knowledgeable people.

I bet the ratio of 10mm semi auto purchases/all handgun purchases is significantly higher in Montana, Wyoming and Alaska than in all other states.

[MickAK]

What would you estimate the max penetration depth required for that would be? Maybe 16-24"?

Not really sure how the penetration in gel would translate to punching through heavy bone or what bullet profile would win in that instance. I think it would be a hard thing to test. Increased deformation and surface area to deflect vs more mass.

I don't really worry about it much, because a skull hit on a charging bear is likely to either land in the triangle just due to how they hold their heads when charging or be a glancing hit. If it starts whirling and snapping at a hit it might be a factor but at that point hitting the head seems unlikely, you're just pouring lead(or copper) into the rough center. I don't think penetration ability is going to make much difference on whether a bullet hitting the edge of the heavy bone mass is going to slide inwards or outwards.

I train to start moving laterally while firing if the terrain permits but I don't think I would get far enough fast enough to present an oblique skull shot.

If proven reliable I would prefer the extra penetration of the hardcast because the people that have to go find the bear I DLPed would prefer to find a dead bear crawled into some brush than a wounded bear snapping and pissed. I have a hard time thinking that bullet profile will be as reliable as the XPs under all conditions, but I've been wrong before and no doubt will be again.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Youse guys are making it kinda sound like context matters, or something.


Enjoying the discussion.

[WDR]

I once had a federal 9mm 147gr fmj fp fail to penetrate a fisher cat skull at 1 foot . It didn't even knock it out. It slid around the skull and ran down the back and exited out the tail.

I believe it. Bullets do weird stuff sometimes. All the more reason to have as many as possible in hand.

[1More]

I ran BB hard cast outdoorsman in a 9mm 226 last year for a trip to Alaska. Penetration, reliability, shoot ability were what gave me the confidence that I had a fighting chance against larger and aggressive friends. 45 Super was my first choice (wasn’t looking for rds at the time), but I couldn’t get a holster set up in time. I ended up running the Sig in a philster the whole time and it was perfect. GJM’s research over the years helped me to find an informed choice. I went with the Sig partly because I wanted a da/sa shootability, the sig shootability, and the barrel length. I might just go with the G5/17 if I had to do it over again.

[Duelist]

I’m a lot more likely to run into a range cow or a steer or another illegal alien than a lion, black bear, or jaguar. I’d have to travel a long way to find a wild brown bear of any description.

I carry a 9mm or a .38 most of the time when hiking, with either hard cast or xtreme penetrators.

[WDR]

I bet the ratio of 10mm semi auto purchases/all handgun purchases is significantly higher in Montana, Wyoming and Alaska than in all other states.

You can probably add Idaho to that list.

[Salamander]

Salamander, the idea that using a lead bullet in a life saving event could be a problem is truly absurd. Sorry you have to deal with that.

I'm going to expand on this a little. Not sure how many folks from California are lurking out there but it might be more than a few.

I actually don't mind the non-lead thing, for revolvers which tend to have more hunting-oriented loads I'd probably use non-lead for outdoor carry even in the absence of regs. More non-lead choices in semi-auto calibers would by a good thing in my view.

The laws that most influence field pistol choices in California are the roster, and magazine capacity restrictions. The roster is my personal pet peeve, because I knew one of the former General Assembly members (now deceased) who voted in the original version. She told me that the original intent was to discourage cheap Saturday night specials then common in urban street crime. It's since been perverted to basically ban the most modern technological innovations. We can't easily go out an buy an optics-ready pistol as one good example. The magazine capacity thing is of course obvious, 9mm is a more viable woods choice with >10 capacity. Yes we can technically use our grandfathered mags or the ones we bought during "freedom week" but not all LE understand that so there is some risk.

There is hope, we expect favorable post-Bruen rulings on one or both roster cases perhaps as soon as this summer according to CRPA, and on the magazine case also. The state will almost certainly appeal and who knows how long that takes.

In the meantime here are a few thoughts on field pistols in California:

As noted previously, my CDFW contacts recommend non-lead for carry away from urban areas. What to select depends on threat analysis.

Black bear are common in much of the state, however attacks on humans are rare and tend to occur mostly in regions where stupid tourists feed them or leave food available. Up here on the north coast there are no documented attacks on humans since the 1970s, and that tracks with my experience and that of my friends. The most common view of a bear up here in the "State of Jefferson" is the rear end rapidly disappearing into the brush. I've spent months working on sites and seeing scat and tracks every day and getting nightly hits on game cameras, and rarely seeing one of the animals. In parts of the Sierras frequented by tourists more care may be necessary.

This thread has helped me feel better about carrying 9mm XP in black bear country, which is good because I've been doing that for a long time.

Other common threats include semi-feral dogs around homeless camps or illegal grows, 9mm is plenty for that and it's one more argument for a semi-auto field pistol. We had one guy on one of my project sites with seven pit bulls, he said "only one was mean" but who knows. That said, we found that with good situational awareness we had only a couple of close calls and no actual incidents.

In some areas there are feral pigs, they're very rare up here so I haven't given it a ton of thought but there are lots in some of the outer Bay Area counties.

Gray wolves occur only in the northeast corner of the state, for now. Perhaps an emerging/future concern, but so far they seem to work hard to avoid humans. Elk are common in some counties and coastal Roosevelt elk are really big. I see them often, go around in rutting season.

One thing that makes me nervous: As a RSO I see lots of guys shooting FMJ practice ammo from their Glocks with 10-round mags, then putting HP in and holstering at the end of the evening. Asking a few if they've ever function tested their carry ammo, it's mostly been blank stares. Even one of the LGS owners has given out bad advice on that. Here on P-F most seem to know to function test everything, that's probably not common in the rest of the population though. An up side is that XP's feed reliably in every type of mag I've personally tested, and I'm only sure of HP/FP issues with the Glock 9mm 10-round mags. If any other calibers or manufacturers suffer from that I haven't seen it.

[Caballoflaco]

I believe it. Heavy bullets typically penetrate better.

However, for this application penetration depth isn't the main requirement. A grizzly head shot requires:
1) Doesn't deflect on impact to skull
2) Penetrates skull
3) Reaches brain

What would you estimate the max penetration depth required for that would be? Maybe 16-24"?

While I know that the head is the ideal target, I think we’ve seen enough reports of people having to either shoot a bear off of someone else, or that was charging someone else and a head shot wasn’t available to at least take into consideration penetration depth to get to the vitals on body shots.

[Clusterfrack]

While I know that the head is the ideal target, I think we’ve seen enough reports of people having to either shoot a bear off of someone else, or that was charging someone else and a head shot wasn’t available to at least take into consideration penetration depth to get to the vitals on body shots.

Agreed. And that's why every time I'm debating what gun to take to Griz country (and really want it to be my beloved P-07), I choose my Glock 20.

[Doc_Glock]

How does the Underwood loading compare to the Buffalo Bore equivalent?

If it is only a buck a round it is already way ahead of the game.

[MickAK]

Agreed. And that's why every time I'm debating what gun to take to Griz country (and really want it to be my beloved P-07), I choose my Glock 20.

I think you and GJM are in the exceptional tier of people vetting, training, and carrying guns for that application.

This conversation made me think back and make a list of the scariest situations I experienced in backcountry Alaska.

1. Bear
2. Drunk guy
3. Drunk/meth guy
4. Fall
5. Drunk guys
6. Fall
7. Fall
8. Bear
9. Drunk/meth/acid? guys
10. Fall

So people outnumbered bears two to one. If you're a really committed, dedicated and experienced shooter with a lot of free time and cash I think a dedicated woods caliber makes sense. The rest of us mortals might be better served with focusing on reliability, ease of draw and unconscious competence with a G19.

[WDR]

I think you and GJM are in the exceptional tier of people vetting, training, and carrying guns for that application.

This conversation made me think back and make a list of the scariest situations I experienced in backcountry Alaska.

List snipped for brevity

So people outnumbered bears two to one. If you're a really committed, dedicated and experienced shooter with a lot of free time and cash I think a dedicated woods caliber makes sense. The rest of us mortals might be better served with focusing on reliability, ease of draw and unconscious competence with a G19.

That's where I stand, and, if I'm understanding GJM correctly, is what the whole point of this thread is. I've long thought that while not ideal, a good heavy 9mm load with a flat nosed bullet, should make a decent compromise for those of us who don't really NEED the hammer of Thor to smite grizz all the time. It's probably not ideal, but way better than bear spray or jingle bells.

[RevolverRob]

So...we're not doing the 10mm Hi-Point cannon in here?

I'm just confirming. Because I mean...I'd kind of like to see how one held up to a diet of Underwood ammo...but I'm not putting my hand at risk to do it.

[WDR]

So...we're not doing the 10mm Hi-Point cannon in here?

I'm just confirming. Because I mean...I'd kind of like to see how one held up to a diet of Underwood ammo...but I'm not putting my hand at risk to do it.

You should buy a 9mm version... and all the Underwood 147's you can afford... for science. I probably is safer than the 10mm version for such an endeavor. Maybe.

[WDR]

Reloaders who shoot 9mm 147 grain cast bullets often discover that CZ pistols will not function with their hand loads. The reason is that CZ chambers are shorter than most other brands. CZ owners might verify before buying this ammo.

FWIW, that can be a problem with Gen5 Glocks and their new Marksman barrels too. I have personally stuck a 125gr truncated cone lead bullet in the chamber of a CZ P0-1... while those rounds chambered fine in a (long gone) XD-9 and my old Gen3 Glock 19.

I'm currently loading 147gr RMR Matchwinner FMJ's (truncated cone shape, at lot like the old Federal AE9FP bullet) for several Gen 5 Glocks, without issue, but I am loading them on the short side. It's generally less of a problem with the more rounded shoulder common on most 147gr cast/coated 9mm bullets, than it is with truncated cone shaped bullets. I'd imagine the Underwood bullets wouldn't have issues in *most* guns, but I would want to check my gun(s) to make sure before carrying it.

[MickAK]

So...we're not doing the 10mm Hi-Point cannon in here?

I'm just confirming. Because I mean...I'd kind of like to see how one held up to a diet of Underwood ammo...but I'm not putting my hand at risk to do it.

To be honest when I read the thread title I thought he found a Mosin at a pawn shop and made an Obrez out of it.

[Salamander]

I think you and GJM are in the exceptional tier of people vetting, training, and carrying guns for that application.

This conversation made me think back and make a list of the scariest situations I experienced in backcountry Alaska.

1. Bear
2. Drunk guy
3. Drunk/meth guy
4. Fall
5. Drunk guys
6. Fall
7. Fall
8. Bear
9. Drunk/meth/acid? guys
10. Fall

So people outnumbered bears two to one. If you're a really committed, dedicated and experienced shooter with a lot of free time and cash I think a dedicated woods caliber makes sense. The rest of us mortals might be better served with focusing on reliability, ease of draw and unconscious competence with a G19.

Similar here, and I spend a fair amount of time in the field.

As an example, we spent a couple days per week for most of two years on what had to be one of the sketchiest construction project sites of my career. Checkerboard of public and private land, surrounded by a vast state park, overgrown, an estimated 100 homeless dudes at the start of the project gradually thinning out as all the big yellow construction machines got started. I met with the county sheriff at the start and he basically told me his guys were afraid to go out there and we were on our own. Things encountered:
- Large dog jumps on a field truck door, drive away and ignore
- Dead black bear found on side of road
- Daily sightings of dogs mostly at a distance
- Strange junkie guy in black top hat walks up to contractor trucks and looks in the windows, presumably for anything of value.
- High speed LE chase from nearest town about 10 miles away, perp drives into our site and disappears. First we find out is when leaving at the end of the day, two squad cars blocking the entrance.
- Two weeks later, three tweakers discharge a handgun during what may have been a robbery attempt at same nearby town. Next day we see a car/people on the site that matches the description. Car drives away quickly as soon as I pull my phone out.
- Walking around site with a USFWS guy to discuss permitting. Huge dog appears and growls. USFWS guy panics. Barely got my hand on the pistol butt when the tweaker owner crawls out of his tent and gets the dog under control. Really did not want to shoot a dog in front of a federal agency guy.
- Squatter with a known past attempted murder conviction harrasses two of my female botanists but agrees to leave after I have a word with him.
- Walking down a trail on state land at the edge of the site, come around screening willows and startle a pit bull standing in the trail. Dog advances growling. This is the only time on the project I actually draw a gun, apparently the dog dislikes those things that make loud noises, turns and runs away about the time the sights align. Homeless camp is audible in the distance.
- Mountain lion tracks on project site, same day as elk tracks seen nearby.
- Several instances of black bear tracks/scat.
- Someone steals a battery from an excavator. Then another local tells us who took it. Contractors go to that individuals decrepit trailer parked on public land and take it back. Fortunately the battery is there but the guy is not home so there are no injuries.
- Multiple incidents of discarded needles on the ground.
- Multiple incidents of stolen cars dumped on the site.
- Knuckle dragger wolf whistles one of my female wetland scientists, drives away quickly when three of us come around the corner to see what's happening. Isn't paying attention, gets stuck in the mud. Meekly asks us for a push, we tell him he's an asshole and to call a tow truck. An hour later he's gone.
- Assorted illegal trash dumping incidents.

Those are the highlights, there's more. This is right next door to one of the highest densities of black bears in coastal northern California, in two years we see only one bear and it's already dead.

Another project, a year later: If you've seen the Netflix series "Murder Mountain" this was a few miles down the ridge from there. CEQA project on a big remote ranch. I counted 11 illegal cannabis grows within half a mile of the property line and visible from the ridgetop or on Google Earth. We stayed on this site for days at a time, did field work both day and night with a team of two to five people. Two mountain lion sightings one very close, us biologists are crazy and we thought that was pretty cool. Scariest encounter of the project was the time we almost stepped on a skunk walking back to the truck at night. Again tons of black bears present, we had lots of nocturnal hits on the game cameras, never really got a close in person look at any just dark fur vanishing into the trees.

BTW the illegal grow thing is still a common issue here, most regional biologists have been shot at, mostly warning shots. Not nearly as bad as it was 10 years ago, the bottom has fallen out of the market... but one still learns to check Google Earth before going into a new area, and to watch for irrigation lines. An encounter could easily mean going up against an AK or AR so we try not to surprise these folks. Sometimes there are dogs, often there is rat poison so dead wildlife is another tip-off.

So big scary wildlife is well down the list for most of us, even here in bigfoot country. Besides all the human-related threats, the biggest risks are sprained ankles on steep terrain or hypothermia in wet season. Being prepared for self-defense is smart, but other precautions/preparations are usually higher priority. If it's work related, we write up a health and safety plan in advance. If it's a weekend hike in a 200,000 acre wilderness area, then it's common sense prep, awareness, and making sure someone knows where we are.

[1Rangemaster]

I can’t comment on animal penetration, but I can offer a limited report on Underwood 147 hard cast and the solid Extreme Penetrator reliability out of a Gen 5 19MOS. Short answer: they’ve worked every time in my pistol in my hands and are “in the black” on a B8 out to 20 yards. Limited amount of rounds: 15 of each out of standard mags. Thought occurred to me that I should try single hand with each, and since I’m a “birthday boy” this week, I’ll get a few more and run a few with each hand. I don’t anticipate any issues…
Working around Glocks for 20+ years, I will say as an armorer I would check the barrel after a shooting session and wire brush if I saw lead for safety’s sake. This because the polygonal rifling is said not to play well with lead projectiles. The Underwood 147 has a hard slick coating which may obiviate this, but it won’t hurt much to clean a faithful tool occasionally-JMO.
I sincerely appreciate the work and comments of others: GJM, Salamander and@MickAK.
For cross reference, this particular 19(w/ACRO) has ~8-10,000 rounds of 147jhp and ball, 135 +P Hornady, 124&115 ball practice ammo with no failures I can remember.

[JHC]

Similar here, and I spend a fair amount of time in the field.

As an example, we spent a couple days per week for most of two years on what had to be one of the sketchiest construction project sites of my career. Checkerboard of public and private land, surrounded by a vast state park, overgrown, an estimated 100 homeless dudes at the start of the project gradually thinning out as all the big yellow construction machines got started. I met with the county sheriff at the start and he basically told me his guys were afraid to go out there and we were on our own. Things encountered:
- Large dog jumps on a field truck door, drive away and ignore
- Dead black bear found on side of road
- Daily sightings of dogs mostly at a distance
- Strange junkie guy in black top hat walks up to contractor trucks and looks in the windows, presumably for anything of value.
- High speed LE chase from nearest town about 10 miles away, perp drives into our site and disappears. First we find out is when leaving at the end of the day, two squad cars blocking the entrance.
- Two weeks later, three tweakers discharge a handgun during what may have been a robbery attempt at same nearby town. Next day we see a car/people on the site that matches the description. Car drives away quickly as soon as I pull my phone out.
- Walking around site with a USFWS guy to discuss permitting. Huge dog appears and growls. USFWS guy panics. Barely got my hand on the pistol butt when the tweaker owner crawls out of his tent and gets the dog under control. Really did not want to shoot a dog in front of a federal agency guy.
- Squatter with a known past attempted murder conviction harrasses two of my female botanists but agrees to leave after I have a word with him.
- Walking down a trail on state land at the edge of the site, come around screening willows and startle a pit bull standing in the trail. Dog advances growling. This is the only time on the project I actually draw a gun, apparently the dog dislikes those things that make loud noises, turns and runs away about the time the sights align. Homeless camp is audible in the distance.
- Mountain lion tracks on project site, same day as elk tracks seen nearby.
- Several instances of black bear tracks/scat.
- Someone steals a battery from an excavator. Then another local tells us who took it. Contractors go to that individuals decrepit trailer parked on public land and take it back. Fortunately the battery is there but the guy is not home so there are no injuries.
- Multiple incidents of discarded needles on the ground.
- Multiple incidents of stolen cars dumped on the site.
- Knuckle dragger wolf whistles one of my female wetland scientists, drives away quickly when three of us come around the corner to see what's happening. Isn't paying attention, gets stuck in the mud. Meekly asks us for a push, we tell him he's an asshole and to call a tow truck. An hour later he's gone.
- Assorted illegal trash dumping incidents.

Those are the highlights, there's more. This is right next door to one of the highest densities of black bears in coastal northern California, in two years we see only one bear and it's already dead.

Another project, a year later: If you've seen the Netflix series "Murder Mountain" this was a few miles down the ridge from there. CEQA project on a big remote ranch. I counted 11 illegal cannabis grows within half a mile of the property line and visible from the ridgetop or on Google Earth. We stayed on this site for days at a time, did field work both day and night with a team of two to five people. Two mountain lion sightings one very close, us biologists are crazy and we thought that was pretty cool. Scariest encounter of the project was the time we almost stepped on a skunk walking back to the truck at night. Again tons of black bears present, we had lots of nocturnal hits on the game cameras, never really got a close in person look at any just dark fur vanishing into the trees.

BTW the illegal grow thing is still a common issue here, most regional biologists have been shot at, mostly warning shots. Not nearly as bad as it was 10 years ago, the bottom has fallen out of the market... but one still learns to check Google Earth before going into a new area, and to watch for irrigation lines. An encounter could easily mean going up against an AK or AR so we try not to surprise these folks. Sometimes there are dogs, often there is rat poison so dead wildlife is another tip-off.

So big scary wildlife is well down the list for most of us, even here in bigfoot country. Besides all the human-related threats, the biggest risks are sprained ankles on steep terrain or hypothermia in wet season. Being prepared for self-defense is smart, but other precautions/preparations are usually higher priority. If it's work related, we write up a health and safety plan in advance. If it's a weekend hike in a 200,000 acre wilderness area, then it's common sense prep, awareness, and making sure someone knows where we are.

Jeezus, livin' the dream you are. ;) Taylor Sheridan could write some good stuff around all that for a new series!

[Salamander]

While getting morning coffee I had a closer look at that artistic bear skull. What's striking is that while there's a lot of bone in there, there's also a lot of air space. A years-old skull is not the same as living bone, but after a closer look I'm thinking that anything that doesn't glance off, even a run of the mill 9mm 115gr JHP, would probably give a bear one hell of a bloody nose. In part because of that it makes me even more in favor of the bear defense strategy that I think GJM recommended in an older thread, of a warning shot into the ground if there's time, then a body shot at distance, then aim for the head after that.

101451

I don't want to derail this thread, but a quick question: Would it be helpful if I started another thread perhaps over in the mindset sub-forum on how to do a threat assessment in a woods/field context? As a senior manager with a global consulting firm I do this all the time before putting junior staff on the ground for projects all over the US, and there are some pretty standard approaches that could help guide what sort of field pistol (and other field gear) may be useful in a particular region and habitat type.

Here I'll just note that in most of the US, large apex predators occur at very low density on the ground and they're mostly nocturnal or crepuscular so they aren't often seen. That's why for projects we inventory with more efficient techniques such as tracks, game cameras, etc; it would be prohibitively expensive for the client for us to actually get eyes on everything (and we're usually focused on protected special status species which require NEPA/CEQA/ESA review and not on the common stuff). Bears are omnivores so can occur at higher density and can concentrate seasonally/spatially when in search of certain resources, especially in extreme environments like much of Alaska. For most of us, charging predators will remain theoretical and selecting a field pistol and ammo is an interesting intellectual exercise and an excuse to test cool stuff for reliability and motivation to practice and be ready for the low probability event, and that's a good thing.

[the Schwartz]

I believe it. Heavy bullets typically penetrate better.

Yep! DoP (depth of penetration) is a function of momentum; namely, sectional density and velocity. As a matter of fact, the mTHOR bullet penetration model relies upon that function SD • Vα to produce highly accurate predictions of projectile DoP in both 10% ordnance gelatin and soft tissue.




I believe it. Heavy bullets typically penetrate better.

However, for this application penetration depth isn't the main requirement. A grizzly head shot requires:
1) Doesn't deflect on impact to skull
2) Penetrates skull
3) Reaches brain

What would you estimate the max penetration depth required for that would be? Maybe 16-24"?

I'd hazard a guess that a projectile with a meplat at least 40% of the projectile's diameter made of a sufficiently hard alloy that will not deform while producing at least 18 inches worth of penetration would suffice.

[Navin Johnson]

Yep! DoP (depth of penetration) is a function of momentum; namely, sectional density and velocity. As a matter of fact, the mTHOR bullet penetration model relies upon that function SD • Vα to produce highly accurate predictions of projectile DoP in both 10% ordnance gelatin and soft tissue.





I'd hazard a guess that a projectile with a meplat at least 40% of the projectile's diameter made of a sufficiently hard alloy that will not deform while producing at least 18 inches worth of penetration would suffice.

Would a heavy for caliber service weapon hollow point suffice?

[SCCY Marshal]

Would a heavy for caliber service weapon hollow point suffice?

Those are made for a different application. They'd probably work but everyone around here who has a different load or gun to even euthanize vehicle hit critters chooses the better option. Watched a local cop and the trooper he was backing up start drinking after a shift in which a quite broken moose stood up and start a shattered-legged charge after 12 (twelve) 357 Magnum duty loads to the noggin and a 1oz foster slug barely stopped it before it got to the wheelgunner. Granted, that same town agency had a full use of force report and investigation after one of their sergeants won a fistfight with a different belligerent brainwormed moose (crowd setting, didn't want to shoot it in front of soccer moms, got hurt feeling reports anyway but none for the people he physically cross-checked away from the animal with his PR-24 oddly enough). Their later 180 grain .40 duty loads had a mixed reputation for headshots in pitbulls and rotties (with regards to lethality, all stopped the beasts at least temporarily). One of the rottweilers was a charge while searching for the suspect in a knife-point beer heist in a wilderness campground at about 2AM which only went south into a multi-agency dumpster fire from there. The last duty load involved bear call I was around for was a 180 grain HST involved in a foot pursuit away from a family but was never fired before the bruin got away. That lieutenant wound up unsuccessfully complaining to upper brass for having taken shotguns out of the supervisor's cars. The point being that service caliber handguns are popguns against people, and the presentations of large game make them more so.

While a flat meplated heavy solid at a healthy velocity is to be preferred, I would not and often have not sweated it when heading out (and when I did it was usually just a .40 with full velocity flat nosed ball vetted through normal range use). Spending a hundred dollars to start vetting a field load is fine after spray, bear bags, and other fieldcraft considerations have been truly settled.

[JPedersen]

While getting morning coffee I had a closer look at that artistic bear skull. What's striking is that while there's a lot of bone in there, there's also a lot of air space. A years-old skull is not the same as living bone, but after a closer look I'm thinking that anything that doesn't glance off, even a run of the mill 9mm 115gr JHP, would probably give a bear one hell of a bloody nose. In part because of that it makes me even more in favor of the bear defense strategy that I think GJM recommended in an older thread, of a warning shot into the ground if there's time, then a body shot at distance, then aim for the head after that.

101451

I don't want to derail this thread, but a quick question: Would it be helpful if I started another thread perhaps over in the mindset sub-forum on how to do a threat assessment in a woods/field context? As a senior manager with a global consulting firm I do this all the time before putting junior staff on the ground for projects all over the US, and there are some pretty standard approaches that could help guide what sort of field pistol (and other field gear) may be useful in a particular region and habitat type.

Here I'll just note that in most of the US, large apex predators occur at very low density on the ground and they're mostly nocturnal or crepuscular so they aren't often seen. That's why for projects we inventory with more efficient techniques such as tracks, game cameras, etc; it would be prohibitively expensive for the client for us to actually get eyes on everything (and we're usually focused on protected special status species which require NEPA/CEQA/ESA review and not on the common stuff). Bears are omnivores so can occur at higher density and can concentrate seasonally/spatially when in search of certain resources, especially in extreme environments like much of Alaska. For most of us, charging predators will remain theoretical and selecting a field pistol and ammo is an interesting intellectual exercise and an excuse to test cool stuff for reliability and motivation to practice and be ready for the low probability event, and that's a good thing.

I would appreciate that thread of you decided to start it. Sounds like valuable information to me!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[the Schwartz]

Would a heavy for caliber service weapon hollow point suffice?

I'd expect (reasonably) that a JHP would deform at impact and conform to the hard, smooth, round surfaces typical of the bear's skull. In that case, I'd expect that dynamic friction at the projectile/skull interface would be very low leading (thanks to wet, slippery biological matter) leading to deflection of the projectile and a failure to penetrate. At almost every imaginable angle (I'm looking at a rather large black bear skull as I type this) that a bear skull could be struck by a bullet fired during an attack/charge, I'd expect this to be the rule rather than the exception.

A projectile design made of an alloy hard enough to resist deformation at the projectile/skull interface with a sharply defined meplat edge that would tend to ''bite'' into the surface of the skull would be the best option where a handgun is to be used. Since we're trying to defeat a hard barrier, velocity (kinetic energy) is also important and must exceed a critical value (see Alekseevskii-Tate, etc). The expansion of a bullet passing through the brain is of secondary importance, but certainly welcome nonetheless.

[Navin Johnson]

I'd expect (reasonably) that a JHP would deform at impact and conform to the hard, smooth, round surfaces typical of the bear's skull. In that case, I'd expect that dynamic friction at the projectile/skull interface would be very low leading (thanks to wet, slippery biological matter) leading to deflection of the projectile and a failure to penetrate. At almost every imaginable angle (I'm looking at a rather large black bear skull as I type this) that a bear skull could be struck by a bullet fired during an attack/charge, I'd expect this to be the rule rather than the exception.

A projectile design made of an alloy hard enough to resist deformation at the projectile/skull interface with a sharply defined meplat edge that would tend to ''bite'' into the surface of the skull would be the best option where a handgun is to be used. Since we're trying to defeat a hard barrier, velocity (kinetic energy) is also important and must exceed a critical value (see Alekseevskii-Tate, etc). The expansion of a bullet passing through the brain is of secondary importance, but certainly welcome nonetheless.

So the bear skull presents different problems than angled or multi-angled shots on laminated auto glass?

[the Schwartz]

So the bear skull presents different problems than angled or multi-angled shots on laminated auto glass?

Yes.

[5pins]

Bob Milek wrote an article in Shooting Times a long time ago about shooing a charging black bear with a .357 using swaged lead bullets. Five of the rounds flattened and skidded across the skull under the skin and recovered in the base of the neck.

[Salamander]

I would appreciate that thread of you decided to start it. Sounds like valuable information to me!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Added here https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?56152-Risk-Assessment-for-Remote-Field-Sites-Wildlands&p=1453036#post1453036

First two posts are up, more to follow as time allows.

[Wondering Beard]

While getting morning coffee I had a closer look at that artistic bear skull. What's striking is that while there's a lot of bone in there, there's also a lot of air space. A years-old skull is not the same as living bone, but after a closer look I'm thinking that anything that doesn't glance off, even a run of the mill 9mm 115gr JHP, would probably give a bear one hell of a bloody nose. In part because of that it makes me even more in favor of the bear defense strategy that I think GJM recommended in an older thread, of a warning shot into the ground if there's time, then a body shot at distance, then aim for the head after that.

101451


Isn't that the somewhat equivalent of "layer armor" for tanks and thus quite a bit harder to penetrate?

If I remember correctly, a shot through a human nose (lots of bone and air) has a harder time making it through the brain stem than one making it through just one single layer of bone.

Am I correct or entirely off?

[the Schwartz]

Bob Milek wrote an article in Shooting Times a long time ago about shooing a charging black bear with a .357 using swaged lead bullets. Five of the rounds flattened and skidded across the skull under the skin and recovered in the base of the neck.

I'm ASSuming here that swaged suggests that those bullets were constructed of a relatively 'soft' alloy?

[Doc_Glock]

Thanks for spending my money GJM. The Underwood sale was too tempting not to pick up some more hardcast 9mm and .380. They seem completely equivalent to the Buffalo Bore stuff.

Personally I am no expert at all but prefer hardcast to magic lightweight Lehigh solids. But perhaps I don’t really understand the Lehigh design. It seems like sturdy FMJ to me. Of course, so is hardcast:). It’s just heavier.

I seem to remember rumors of some feeding issues occurring with hardcast in some semi auto pistols but can not recall the source. I personally have not had any trouble, but probably have less than 50 very expensive Buffalo Bore rounds fired.

[GJM]

Thanks for spending my money GJM. The Underwood sale was too tempting not to pick up some more hardcast 9mm and .380. They seem completely equivalent to the Buffalo Bore stuff.

Personally I am no expert at all but prefer hardcast to magic lightweight Lehigh solids. But perhaps I don’t really understand the Lehigh design. It seems like sturdy FMJ to me. Of course, so is hardcast:). It’s just heavier.

I seem to remember rumors of some feeding issues occurring with hardcast in some semi auto pistols but can not recall the source. I personally have not had any trouble, but probably have less than 50 very expensive Buffalo Bore rounds fired.

I have experienced, directly or via trusted reports, feeding problems with hard cast in 10mm, .40 S&W, and .45 Super. While I have experienced stoppages with the Underwood Lehigh penetrator load in a Gen 4 Glock 20, I have not had problems with the Lehigh penetrators in 9, .40, .45 and .45 Super. An advantage of the Lehigh penetrator bullet is a FMJ bullet profile, and in Underwood loadings, modest power factor compared to many boutique loads. Decent penetration, monolithic construction, and good reliability is what the Lehigh loads have going for them. Hard cast is about half the cost, allowing more cost effective reliability vetting, penetrates better, and is heavy for caliber compared to Lehigh bullets.

I value reliability more than bullet performance, so vetting reliability is what I am focused on. The 147+P Underwood hard cast has worked over enough rounds in multiple Glock 19 pistols that I am nearly there. The Underwood 200 hard cast in 10mm looks promising in the Gen 5 20 and FN 510, but I need to shoot more. Have 250 or so of them inbound.

[Salamander]

Isn't that the somewhat equivalent of "layer armor" for tanks and thus quite a bit harder to penetrate?

If I remember correctly, a shot through a human nose (lots of bone and air) has a harder time making it through the brain stem than one making it through just one single layer of bone.

Am I correct or entirely off?

No idea. There's a lot of complexity in the example I looked at though. A quarter-inch difference in point of impact might encounter very different structure.

[GJM]

A commonly held belief in Alaska is that more grizzly bears die from shots to the neck with 55 grain bargain .223 ball, launched from a Mini 14, usually near a native village, then from traditional bear hunting cartridges like .300Wm, .338 WM and .375 H&H. However, there is a difference between sniping at bears from 50 yards or more, running away, versus trying to stop a charge at ten yards with your pistol.

Revolvers are one bear guns, where 15 or so rounds is better for a sow and two grown cubs. In 1992, before I had become an AK resident, a sow and two cubs charged a guide and me, packing moose meat. The guide had a .338 bolt with three rounds in it, and I had a 629 that was down to five rounds of .44, after I fired a warning shot.

[fatdog]

Thanks for spending my money GJM. I seem to remember rumors of some feeding issues occurring with hardcast in some semi auto pistols but can not recall the source. I personally have not had any trouble, but probably have less than 50 very expensive Buffalo Bore rounds fired.

Somewhere around here I documented a 150 round test of Underwood's .40 S&W 200gr hardcast (https://underwoodammo.com/40-s-w-200-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/), my results were not good with that round in a G23.5 with several malfunctions.

[GJM]

Somewhere around here I documented a 150 round test of Underwood's .40 S&W 200gr hardcast (https://underwoodammo.com/40-s-w-200-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/), my results were not good with that round in a G23.5 with several malfunctions.

Not 150 rounds, but I shot 50 or so Underwood Lehigh 140 grain penetrators in a pair of G5 23 pistols with no issues.

[BobM]

Somewhere around here I documented a 150 round test of Underwood's .40 S&W 200gr hardcast (https://underwoodammo.com/40-s-w-200-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/), my results were not good with that round in a G23.5 with several malfunctions.

Dang, wish I’d seen that yesterday morning. I ordered 100 rounds to try out in one of my M&Ps.

[Clusterfrack]

I have experienced, directly or via trusted reports, feeding problems with hard cast in 10mm, .40 S&W, and .45 Super. While I have experienced stoppages with the Underwood Lehigh penetrator load in a Gen 4 Glock 20, I have not had problems with the Lehigh penetrators in 9, .40, .45 and .45 Super.

In my Glock20, I was able to induce feeding problems with Lehigh XP, hard cast, and XTP with heavy charges. All the feeding problems went away when I used extra power magazine springs. I'm unclear whether the issues with hard cast in other calibers are due to bullet shape, slide velocity, or both --because those loads are typically very hot.

[the Schwartz]

In my Glock20, I was able to induce feeding problems with Lehigh XP, hard cast, and XTP with heavy charges. All the feeding problems went away when I used extra power magazine springs. I'm unclear whether the issues with hard cast in other calibers are due to bullet shape, slide velocity, or both --because those loads are typically very hot.

What kind of problems, CF?

Were they failures for the slide to return fully into battery? Something else?

[Clusterfrack]

What kind of problems, CF?

Were they failures for the slide to return fully into battery? Something else?

FTF, nose dive.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/178ee9fa777731e5488dc68e511f556c.jpg

[MickAK]

In my Glock20, I was able to induce feeding problems with Lehigh XP, hard cast, and XTP with heavy charges. All the feeding problems went away when I used extra power magazine springs. I'm unclear whether the issues with hard cast in other calibers are due to bullet shape, slide velocity, or both --because those loads are typically very hot.

I think the Lehigh XP bullet shape can mask issues with poor timing caused by hot loads.

My main concern with the hardcast is fines getting deposited in the magazine or on the feed ramp and the small amount of extra drag causing a malfunction. The same fines would settle in between the flutes on the XP and there's less contact area initially which is why they seem to be a 'solution' to some 10mm feeding issues.

[GJM]

FTF, nose dive.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/178ee9fa777731e5488dc68e511f556c.jpg

Similar issues with Underwood and Buffalo Bore hard cast with Glock 20/29, S&W third gen 10mm models, Glock 22 Gen 4 OEM and KKM barrels. Interestingly an FN .40 striker I had, fed the hard cast. USP FS didn't like hard cast.

[Clusterfrack]

I think the Lehigh XP bullet shape can mask issues with poor timing caused by hot loads.

My main concern with the hardcast is fines getting deposited in the magazine or on the feed ramp and the small amount of extra drag causing a malfunction. The same fines would settle in between the flutes on the XP and there's less contact area initially which is why they seem to be a 'solution' to some 10mm feeding issues.

I agree. I was concerned about bullet drag in the magazines, but so far have no evidence of that. I don't want to derail this very interesting thread about 9mm, so I'm pasting a quote from the thread that discusses all that.


Results of more testing:

42 more trouble-free rounds of Beartooth 200gr lead hard cast over 9.0gr 800X, using 460 Rowland mag spring (https://www.460rowland.com/product/460-magazine-spring/) and shims (https://www.460rowland.com/product/460-rowland-glock-21-magazine-shim-set/). These loads chronoed at 1189fps (sd=6; n=14).

Below is a 10 round 20yd group. The two sub-groups are due to me re-adjusting my grip from the very stout recoil. In any case, this is a very accurate load.
37697

I also tested the new Federal HST 200gr HST (https://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun/premium-personal-defense/personal-defense-hst/p10hst1s) (P10HST1S) in standard mags. As expected, they fed flawlessly, including SHO and WHO with a purposely weak grip. Chrono: 1078fps (sd=6; n=16). It's great to see Federal producing a full power 200gr 10mm load, instead of the 900fps 180gr loads of the past. Recoil of the P10HST1S in my G20 was comparable to a .40 cal Glock--heavier than a 9mm, but nowhere close to the recoil from my nuclear hard cast loads.

I will be carrying these loads in Alaska soon. Intel on the ground is that this will be an active bear year. I hope we can observe these beautiful creatures safely at a distance, and avoid trouble.

[the Schwartz]

FTF, nose dive.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/178ee9fa777731e5488dc68e511f556c.jpg

Silde reciprocating too fast? (best guess)

[GJM]

My shims and mag springs are on the way. Part of me wants to put them on now, and the other part of me wants to see if a problem materializes with the hard cast, and if so install them and see that the problems goes away. This would help sort out whether the G5 20 has some secret sauce with heavy loads.

[MickAK]

I suppose I can go take a dunk in a stream I know has fines while wearing my field rig and run a drill with the 9mm hardcast. I still don't think I would switch but it would be an interesting data point.

[GJM]

I suppose I can go take a dunk in a stream I know has fines while wearing my field rig and run a drill with the 9mm hardcast. I still don't think I would switch but it would be an interesting data point.

Please elaborate on the fines and implications for reliability.

[MickAK]

Please elaborate on the fines and implications for reliability.

https://www.nps.gov/articles/glacialtillandglacialflour.htm

Depending on the water source and your method of travel this stuff can get absolutely everywhere. It's suspended in the water and on a sunny day you can disassemble a magazine and apply a piece of scotch tape and look at the composition. Most of it is very fine and smooth and unlikely to cause much drag but sometimes there will be miniscule sharp pieces mixed in with the smooth. Varies depending on location and time of year.

[WDR]

I'm assuming by fines, he means grit/clay/suspended solids/turbidity in the water. But maybe I'm missing something. ETA: Looks like his reply was faster than mine. :cool:

I've spent plenty of time with "moon dust" grade dirt/dust all over and inside my Glocks, and I don't worry about function. IME, it would take a lot to stop a gun up. YMMV.

[Clusterfrack]

I'm assuming by fines, he means grit/clay/suspended solids/turbidity in the water. But maybe I'm missing something. ETA: Looks like his reply was faster than mine. :cool:

I've spent plenty of time with "moon dust" grade dirt/dust all over and inside my Glocks, and I don't worry about function. IME, it would take a lot to stop a gun up. YMMV.

Same, and also with P-07s and ARs.

But, if a magazine is just barely lifting rounds fast enough to stay ahead of slide velocity... I could see a problem arising when it gets contaminated.

[WDR]

Same, and also with P-07s and ARs.

But, if a magazine is just barely lifting rounds fast enough to stay ahead of slide velocity... I could see a problem arising when it gets contaminated.

Sure. Someone should jump in some rivers full of glacial melt in Alaska with a bunch of loaded handguns, and report back, for science. I nominate GJM and MickAK. :cool:

I will do the desert moon dust test myself. :rolleyes:

[the Schwartz]

Sure. Someone should jump in some rivers full of glacial melt in Alaska with a bunch of loaded handguns, and report back, for science. I nominate GJM and MickAK. :cool:

I will do the desert moon dust test myself. :rolleyes:

Must.

have.

videos.

:)

[5pins]

I'm ASSuming here that swaged suggests that those bullets were constructed of a relatively 'soft' alloy?

Yes.

[CCT125US]

https://www.nps.gov/articles/glacialtillandglacialflour.htm

Depending on the water source and your method of travel this stuff can get absolutely everywhere. It's suspended in the water and on a sunny day you can disassemble a magazine and apply a piece of scotch tape and look at the composition. Most of it is very fine and smooth and unlikely to cause much drag but sometimes there will be miniscule sharp pieces mixed in with the smooth. Varies depending on location and time of year.

Learn something new everyday.

[WDR]

Learn something new everyday.

It makes for some very pretty lakes/streams sometimes.

[fatdog]

Dang, wish I’d seen that yesterday morning. I ordered 100 rounds to try out in one of my M&Ps.

Don't despair just yet. I think that round probably works in a lot of guns. The things that are candidates for causing it to fail in my G23.5:

1. I think the leade (gap the bullet jumps before it engages the rifling) is very shallow in Gen 5 Glock marksman barrels. This can be a big problem for some bullets based on ogive and cartridge OAL. Back mid-90's when USPSA PF was 175 for major, a common solution was to take a 200gr bullet and load long, like out to 10mm (1.20) OAL to keep pressure under control and still make major. In fact there was no commercially loaded ammo back then in .40 S&W that would reliably make PF, you had to load your own to make major and even have a tiny margin. In order for that cartridge recipe to run, I had to have my Para P16 chamber relieved by reaming out the rifling significantly to increase the leade distance. Result was it ran with that round but started printing shotgun patterns if you loaded standard OAL off the shelf 180gr .40 loads because that bullet jump had become huge.

2. Gen 5 23 and 22 have significantly heavier slides and a different spring combination which may be a factor for that round, every 155-180 runs fine, the 140gr penetrators run fine.

3. It appeared that magazine velocity/speed, how fast the follower can push up the next round, could have been a factor in the failures I experienced. Malfunctions turned up more often in older gen 3 era G23 magazines which otherwise never caused problems.

All to say, it might run just fine in a S&W M&P, heck I intend to test the remainder of what I bought some time in an HK .40 gun. But testing proved to me never to trust my unmodified Gen 5 G23 with that 200gr hardcast round.

[GJM]

Don't despair just yet. I think that round probably works in a lot of guns. The things that are candidates for causing it to fail in my G23.5:

1. I think the leade (gap the bullet jumps before it engages the rifling) is very shallow in Gen 5 Glock marksman barrels. This can be a big problem for some bullets based on ogive and cartridge OAL. Back mid-90's when USPSA PF was 175 for major, a common solution was to take a 200gr bullet and load long, like out to 10mm (1.20) OAL to keep pressure under control and still make major. In fact there was no commercially loaded ammo back then in .40 S&W that would reliably make PF, you had to load your own to make major and even have a tiny margin. In order for that cartridge recipe to run, I had to have my Para P16 chamber relieved by reaming out the rifling significantly to increase the leade distance. Result was it ran with that round but started printing shotgun patterns if you loaded standard OAL off the shelf 180gr .40 loads because that bullet jump had become huge.

2. Gen 5 23 and 22 have significantly heavier slides and a different spring combination which may be a factor for that round, every 155-180 runs fine, the 140gr penetrators run fine.

3. It appeared that magazine velocity/speed, how fast the follower can push up the next round, could have been a factor in the failures I experienced. Malfunctions turned up more often in older gen 3 era G23 magazines which otherwise never caused problems.

All to say, it might run just fine in a S&W M&P, heck I intend to test the remainder of what I bought some time in an HK .40 gun. But testing proved to me never to trust my unmodified Gen 5 G23 with that 200gr hardcast round.

I saw stoppages with the pre-GEN five Glock 23 magazines with a different follower, so I think using the latest magazines may be necessary not just with heavy field loads.

[41magfan]

We've all got our own convictions about these sorts of things, but in my mind reliability trumps everything when it comes to defending yourself against any threat. I've got a lot of reliable pistols that shoot a lot of different ammunition offerings with utter reliability, so I'm personally not interested in jumping through any hoops (i.e. modifications) in an effort to make my gun reliable with a particular loading.

Some years ago, when this assertion about bear skulls being bulletproof started gaining traction, I did a little cursory research and found that bear skulls aren't any "tougher" than many other carnivores. Having said that, we all know how angular surfaces can disrupt bullet trajectory, but I'm not going to compromise reliability to chase a potential benefit offered by a "better" bullet.

However, the brown truck is scheduled to deliver 100 rds of the Underwood 9mm Luger +P 147gr Flat Nose stuff tomorrow and I'm curious to see how it shakes out.

[GJM]

We've all got our own convictions about these sorts of things, but in my mind reliability trumps everything when it comes to defending yourself against any threat. I've got a lot of reliable pistols that shoot a lot of different ammunition offerings with utter reliability, so I'm personally not interested in jumping through any hoops (i.e. modifications) in an effort to make my gun reliable with a particular loading.

Some years ago, when this assertion about bear skulls being bulletproof started gaining traction, I did a little cursory research and found that bear skulls aren't any "tougher" than many other carnivores. Having said that, we all know how angular surfaces can disrupt bullet trajectory, but I'm not going to compromise reliability to chase a potential benefit offered by a "better" bullet.

However, the brown truck is scheduled to deliver 100 rds of the Underwood 9mm Luger +P 147gr Flat Nose stuff tomorrow and I'm curious to see how it shakes out.

Looking at documented instances of firearms used in grizzly bear attacks over many years, handguns (mostly in common service calibers as opposed to magnum revolvers) are statistically slightly more successful than long guns. The reason for that, is handguns are a lot easier to deploy in a FUT than a long gun, especially a hunting bolt rifle. Fortunately, you don't have to kill the bear "right then" to end the attack, or the statistics would look much worse for handguns. To restate the obvious, warning shots and body shots often cause the bear to stop attacking you. Our focus on bullets that can penetrate a grizzly's skull is for the outlier attack, where a shot to the upper CNS is the only way of shutting the bear down right there with a handgun.

For these reasons, I would always take the reliable handgun over the Super Dooper Magnum that has a mean rounds between stoppage that you can count on one hand. Now, if we can get penetration with reliability in a handgun that is easy to shoot well, we have increased our odds of surviving the outlier bear attack.

My $100 field pistol title was part click bait, part completely serious. Almost everyone of us already has a field pistol, the trick is to pick a load that is relevant to your threats and shoot enough of it to reasonably vet its reliability in your handgun.

[BillSWPA]

Years ago I bought a Taurus 3” .44 magnum for field carry. I have not shot it in almost 2 decades, and I doubt I have actually carried it in the field. The only ways I could effectively conceal it are under a jacket in a shoulder holster in cold weather, or in a big fanny pack.

If I were looking for a true field pistol today, I would look at a 10mm or .45 super, which would be much easier to actually carry, but I am not in the field enough to justify the purchase.

The $100 field pistol makes a great deal of sense.

[Risto]

Underwood has a President’s Day sale going…..:cool:

[GJM]

I shot another 20 rounds of the Underwood 147+P coated hard cast in my Gen 5 19 with Mayhem today without issue.

[Doc_Glock]

I got my three boxes of 9mm and two boxes of .380 hardcast from Underwood. Compared to the Buffalo Bore similar rounds I had on hand, the Underwood is cosmetically superior due to the nickel plated
casing. The BB has nicer plastic packaging.

Comparing claimed weights and FPS, this is an identical loading.

Getting the Underwood on sale for about half the price or less than the BB, I don’t see ever buying BB again. Not that I ever bought much of this to begin with. Plus I sort of find Tim Sundles persona off putting.

I am actually interested in the .380 a little more since I carry the pocket pistol most of the time and .380 is pretty anemic. I found a video of the BB hardcast penetrating ~40 inches in standard pressure loading. The medium is clear ballistics synthetic gelatin. It’s not clear but I also am not sure it exactly compares to 10% gelatin so perhaps the tear is worthless. Either way I think that penetration is “adequate”!



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UgOa25NhFio

[WDR]

So .380 is the new Field Pistol hotness then? :cool:

Guess I better sell all these 9mm Glocks...

[flyrodr]

I shot another 20 rounds of the Underwood 147+P coated hard cast in my Gen 5 19 with Mayhem today without issue.

GJM: OK, OK. Here I go again, following a good lead. Just ordered a few boxes of this stuff to try out. No grizz around here, but black bear, feral dogs, wild pigs, etc. And I do try and get out to MT/ID in the late summer/fall for some trout fishing.

This past summer as we drove through a back part of the GSMNP we came upon this. People in front of us got out of cars to take photos, with the mama bear clearly concerned about the two OTHER cubs that were loitering behind. Wife just rolled down the window for this shot, being smart enough not to test how "tame" a park bear is. Fortunately, no issues.

101876

[Risto]

Today I shot 100rnds of the Underwood 147 hard cast 9mm out of my p365xl (carry gun). It was basically the same poi as my carry ammo (147hst). I had two fails to fire where the trigger was dead as if it didn’t reset. The first one I just tap rack bang and loaded the ejected round which looked fine with no primer strike. About 40-50 rounds later same thing with dead trigger. This time i looked more closely and the gun appeared to be fully in battery but i didn't punch the slide forward or anything. Dropped mag and inspected round in the chamber, nothing unusual. Loaded said round into mag and went on with no issues. Last 10 rounds i did some longer shots in fresh snow and noticed some ring shavings at my feet. Not really sure whats going on but I’m betting this has something to do with the FTFs. I wouldn’t have noticed these without the snow.

Unfortunately I didn't bring another gun to experiment with. I was hoping to just be able to throw a mag of these in when i go into the woods as a expedient field gun. Not looking good for that purpose.

Any ideas?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230228/d3748862f43e62df06ff1d103ada862f.jpg

[fatdog]

My theory on the rings. The ogive combined with the OAL of the cartridge is too great for the chamber of that gun. The ring is getting shaved as the round is being chambered and in some cases is preventing the gun from going fully into battery. If so, really bad combination, your barrel, that round, just my best guess.

I am used to creating very similar rings that get shaved off the ball (if properly oversized as it should be) when loading a cap and ball revolver, in that case it is a good thing because it indicates good sealing.

[Catshooter]

What fatdog said is correct. I would add that in the days of yesteryear, pistol companies used to cut a slight but noticeable chamfer right in front of the chamber. Called a throat it eases the transition of the bullet into the rifling. Without it, the chamber end has a nice sharp edge. Excellent for shaving a ring off.

A solution (other than not shooting lead) is to send the barrel to Doug Guy over at the Cast Boolits site. He can install a throat for you and does excellent work.

[GJM]

Today I shot 100rnds of the Underwood 147 hard cast 9mm out of my p365xl (carry gun). It was basically the same poi as my carry ammo (147hst). I had two fails to fire where the trigger was dead as if it didn’t reset. The first one I just tap rack bang and loaded the ejected round which looked fine with no primer strike. About 40-50 rounds later same thing with dead trigger. This time i looked more closely and the gun appeared to be fully in battery but i didn't punch the slide forward or anything. Dropped mag and inspected round in the chamber, nothing unusual. Loaded said round into mag and went on with no issues. Last 10 rounds i did some longer shots in fresh snow and noticed some ring shavings at my feet. Not really sure whats going on but I’m betting this has something to do with the FTFs. I wouldn’t have noticed these without the snow.

Unfortunately I didn't bring another gun to experiment with. I was hoping to just be able to throw a mag of these in when i go into the woods as a expedient field gun. Not looking good for that purpose.

Any ideas?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230228/d3748862f43e62df06ff1d103ada862f.jpg

Small sample, but pretty sure I shot a box of 20 of these through my Macro/XL combo. Will repeat with a few XL uppers and see what we get.

[MickAK]

.

Any ideas?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230228/d3748862f43e62df06ff1d103ada862f.jpg

The ammo doesn't fit in that chamber, or you have a wildly out of spec pistol. I doubt the latter. I'm not feeling good about this ammo for field use. I don't think the increased penetration outweighs the potential for reliability issues.

I ordered some and I'll give it a try but I'm not confident.

[1Rangemaster]

I don’t know much about that combo of pistol-Sig, and ammo-147 UW, but I don’t like the looks of that from a shooter perspective. I would respectfully request everyone running tests on the coated lead projectiles to stop, field strip your particular piece and examine the chamber and the area just forward. The danger here is that if there is a buildup, you could get a catastrophic pressure situation, damaging the gun and you!
Glock has for years recommended against shooting lead through their barrels. I personally take a little more nuanced approach: shoot a few-like a standard mag or so-and check the barrel. If there’s a little leading, scrub with a brass brush. We did it with revolvers “back in the day”, no reason not to now. If it’s excessive, maybe that combo isn’t working.
I think we may have gotten a bit spoiled by the general “boring” reliability of plastic pistols. A little care would go a long way to having a safe situation. Think of it as a preflight, GJM.
I have a 15 round mag of the Underwood load I’m keeping, probably because I’m fru-, uh, cheap. I have shot a box of 20 to confirm function and impact in my 5th gen 19MOS- no issues. Others report this load is working in their guns. And, I’m not going to shoot hundreds in a match, training session, etc. That’s my story right now and I’m sticking to it. YMMV.
But again, check the damn barrels now…

[revchuck38]

GJM - I'd suggest you pull the barrel, ensure that the chamber is free of accumulated crud, and do a plunk test with that ammo. It might be loaded just a smidge longer than the chamber permits. I use a barrel from one of my P99Cs to set OAL on my handloads due to their combination of tight chamber and short leade. You might have the same combination in your 365.

[GJM]

I have questions, and look forward to learning more about this.

Is the problem something about this particular batch of Underwood ammo, this 147 Underwood load generally, all hard cast in semi auto pistols, this particular barrel, a specific manufacturers' barrels, or some combination of different factors.

I hope Risto contacts Underwood ASAP and gets their take on it. This morning, I am going to pull the Glock 20 and FN 10mm barrels and inspect them. Since I am just over 400 rounds each, with 166 and 123 rounds of Underwood hard cast, and have only used a bore snake once on each pistol, it will be interesting. I will also pull the Mayhem 9mm barrel I have shot the most Underwood hard cast through, and inspect. Hope others who have shot hard cast do the same. I bet Lost River will have an opinion. Does it make sense to remove the barrel and do a drop test with some of these rounds?

[revchuck38]

Is the problem something about this particular batch of Underwood ammo, this 147 Underwood load generally, all hard cast in semi auto pistols, this particular barrel, a specific manufacturers' barrels, or some combination of different factors.

I've been shooting hard cast, both traditional lubed and now coated, in 9x19 pistols for years with no issues. Pistols included a B92 Brigadier, three different PX4s, two CZ-75Bs, a SIG P6, two different P99Cs, and a G45. My SWAG is that the problem is due to this particular batch of ammo.

[GJM]

GJM - I'd suggest you pull the barrel, ensure that the chamber is free of accumulated crud, and do a plunk test with that ammo. It might be loaded just a smidge longer than the chamber permits. I use a barrel from one of my P99Cs to set OAL on my handloads due to their combination of tight chamber and short leade. You might have the same combination in your 365.

Risto had the problem, not me. I plan to measure OAL in a number of different boxes of Underwood hard cast 9 and 10mm ammo and check for consistency in OAL.

[revchuck38]

Risto had the problem, not me. I plan to measure OAL in a number of different boxes of Underwood hard cast 9 and 10mm ammo and check for consistency in OAL.

Doh!!! That's what I get for posting without adequate caffeination! :o

[revchuck38]

GJM - I'd suggest you pull the barrel, ensure that the chamber is free of accumulated crud, and do a plunk test with that ammo. It might be loaded just a smidge longer than the chamber permits. I use a barrel from one of my P99Cs to set OAL on my handloads due to their combination of tight chamber and short leade. You might have the same combination in your 365.

Risto - I misattributed your post to GJM, sorry!

[1Rangemaster]

I am not any sort of a reloader, and I do believe, as in most human endeavors, there are varying digress of competence.
What little info I just pulled from the ‘net leads me to believe this might be one of two things or a combo.
1)bad batch of ammo-it happens, and/or 2)Sig 365s, or the OP 365 really doesn’t handle the UW lipstick round.
The published overall length of 9x19 is 1.169 inches. Bullet diameter might have something to do with it-but then it wouldn’t chamber(?)
Assistance requested, reloaders…

[GJM]

Well, if nothing else, four of my pistols got a closer inspection and barrel cleaning. Here is what I did so far.

1) measured the OAL of the Underwood 147 hard cast load, sampling three rounds from six different boxes of 20 from two different shipments from Underwood. Extremely consistent OAL of 1.10 with .01 max variation down to 1.09.

2) I plunked a number of rounds in my Mayhem Glock 19 barrel, Walther PDP barrel and a 365XL barrels without issue.

3) I inspected the Mayhem 19 barrel which has several hundred Underwood hard cast rounds through it, the Glock 20 and FN 510 barrels, and the 365 XL barrel. Before cleaning, I didn't notice any particular lead build up.

Here are pictures of the G20 and FN 10mm barrels after cleaning with a bore snake.

101988


Here is the Glock 19 Mayhem barrel after cleaning.

101989

Here is the 365XL barrel before cleaning and after running the bore snake through.

101990

101991

I am not ready to conclude anything yet, but I am hoping Risto can shed some light on whether he thinks he has a nub spec 365 barrel, the ammo was odd, or something else.

[fatdog]

Interesting post on Enos from a couple of years ago that explains the general nature of this problem, certainly possible for OAL to be fine and the ogive meeting a short leade to be the real culprit. If that is so, only two solutions. Seat the bullet deeper or lengthen the leade distance.

click on the diagram of the chamber in that post to see it in detail

I have found the leade distance on commercial mass produced pistol barrels to be inconsistent even within the same model from the same manufacturer. Years ago I bought a 9mm finish reamer which I use by hand, and it has solved a problem several times with a few twists in the barrel. Not saying that is the right answer here. As I recall the offenders I had to do this with it includes Walther, Kahr, Steyr and a couple of times with Zev barrels, all in 9mm but I can never remember needing to adjust a Glock barrel.

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/275843-how-short-oal-for-cz/?do=findComment&comment=3075308

[Risto]

Unfortunately I’m not super educated on the details here. But I am learning. I have calipers and 40 or 60 rounds of the underwood ammo left, so i can at least measure them again themselves. I sure wish I would have been able to tell if every round shot produced the shavings. I’ll update when i get a minute to take some measurements and do that plunk test.

[GJM]

Unfortunately I’m not super educated on the details here. But I am learning. I have calipers and 40 or 60 rounds of the underwood ammo left, so i can at least measure them again themselves. I sure wish I would have been able to tell if every round shot produced the shavings. I’ll update when i get a minute to take some measurements and do that plunk test.

Here is my measurement of the ammo. It would be great if you can figure out whether your ammo overall length is long or it is something about your 365 barrel. Ideally you can drop check a few rounds in your 365 barrel and another 9mm barrel like a Glock.

102001

[flyrodr]

Just spitballin' here, 'cause I haven't dragged out my caliper. But, 9mm of course headspaces on the case length, so the drop test in the chamber should work for initial "fit". Placing one of the Underwood hard cast rounds next to a 147 HST, the OAL of the HST is greater. But the taper of the hard cast is more gradual, so I'm thinking that shaving is indeed related to the the taper/shape of the hard cast, or the "cut" of the chamber (abrupt or maybe a bit of smoothing/taper). Or both combined with maybe a "softer" texture of the hard cast's coating compared to a jacketed bullet.

Although I did just stick an HST and then a hard cast into the muzzle of my P365, and the hard cast goes in further than the HST.

Stumped, here.

[revchuck38]

Interesting post on Enos from a couple of years ago that explains the general nature of this problem, certainly possible for OAL to be fine and the ogive meeting a short leade to be the real culprit. If that is so, only two solutions. Seat the bullet deeper or lengthen the leade distance.

Bullet mold producers are making molds for bullets without lube grooves since coating has become so popular. I got a couple of bags of these bullets (https://www.brazosprecision.com/9mm-125gr-Round-NoseBevel-BaseNo-Groove-approx-820ct-0069bullet_p_73.html) from Brazos Precision. I've been using 1.13" OAL for 124-grain FMJs, but I had to shorten the OAL for these to 1.05" to get them to pass the plunk test in my Walthers. I had to drop the powder charge from 5.5 grains of BE-86 to 5.0 too. IIRC, the now-discontinued Hornady 124-grain FMJ/FP needed to be shortened to about that OAL to work in most pistols.

I could have the leades lengthened in my pistols, but it's cheaper just to settle on the shorter OAL and use it in everything. It doesn't seem to affect practical accuracy, at least in my hands. My G45 has developed a taste for them. :)

[Risto]

Hope this helps. Is there anything i should check on the barrel specifically?

Should i pull a bullet?


Pictures where easier to put in this link..
https://imgur.com/a/Zg6nAhg

[revchuck38]

Everything looks okay in those pictures. Does the loaded round fall out of the chamber under its own weight?

[Risto]

Everything looks okay in those pictures. Does the loaded round fall out of the chamber under its own weight?

Yep. I checked like 25 of them.


Also, Underwoods response to my ping:

“ Yes, can you please send pictures of the gun and box of ammo to get the LOT. I am wondering if the chamber support is not there for the capability, and you may be better off ordering the 115 grain Xtreme Penetrator, however, not in +P+ due to the lack of chamber support. ”

[revchuck38]

Yep. I checked like 25 of them.


Also, Underwoods response to my ping:

“ Yes, can you please send pictures of the gun and box of ammo to get the LOT. I am wondering if the chamber support is not there for the capability, and you may be better off ordering the 115 grain Xtreme Penetrator, however, not in +P+ due to the lack of chamber support. ”

Well, it sounds like everything fits correctly. I don't understand Underwood's concern for chamber support, one would think that all current production pistols have adequate chamber support...but I've been wrong before.

My SWAG at this point is that there's an issue with the chamber end of the barrel (not the chamber itself) being undersized. A visit to a gunsmith who has a finishing reamer might be in order.

[flyrodr]

Interesting post on Enos from a couple of years ago that explains the general nature of this problem, {etc.}


https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/275843-how-short-oal-for-cz/?do=findComment&comment=3075308

Apologies to fatdog. Didn't see this excellent post!

[fatdog]

Risto, when you do the plunk test, instead of dropping it in, push it with your thumb hard until it is fully seated and won't go any farther.

Then turn it upside down and see if it falls out easily from just gravity....that may tell the tale if it does not fall easily.

Apologies if that is what you already did.

[Risto]

Risto, when you do the plunk test, instead of dropping it in, push it with your thumb hard until it is fully seated and won't go any farther.

Then turn it upside down and see if it falls out easily from just gravity....that may tell the tale if it does not fall easily.

Apologies if that is what you already did.

No I didn’t do that, but I will as soon as I get done teaching tonight.

In the meantime this is Underwood’s response to my pictures and request for a detailed guesstimate as to what the issue may be:

“ Looks like you are hitting against the rifling, potentially and unfortunately we have seen this become an issue with compact and micro compact pistols. However, I looked up your order and price. One time we will accommodate, however, this projectile in a micro/compact pistol is not ideal. ….”

They went on to include a code for my original purchase price. I feel like that’s pretty damn good customer service, but wish they engaged a bit more in the explanation of whats happening. Like how is a ring produced if its the rifling its the issue?

Also reached out to the fella Catshooter mentioned and he said he not longer does that sort of chamber work on hardened steel barrels. Recommend getting a stainless barrel for cast boolits.

[maximus83]

A low round count so far, but here's a small data sampling in my two 365's.

Loads:
* Buffalo Bore +P 147gr hardcast (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388)
* Underwood +P 147gr hardcast (https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-147gr.-flat-nose-black-cherry-coated-hard-cast-hunting-ammo/)

Fired 20 rounds of each load through each pistol, no issues at all.

102078

[Risto]

Risto, when you do the plunk test, instead of dropping it in, push it with your thumb hard until it is fully seated and won't go any farther.

Then turn it upside down and see if it falls out easily from just gravity....that may tell the tale if it does not fall easily.

Apologies if that is what you already did.


Pushed as hard as could and it still dropped free.

[Risto]

A low round count so far, but here's a small data sampling in my two 365's.

Loads:
* Buffalo Bore +P 147gr hardcast (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388)
* Underwood +P 147gr hardcast (https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-147gr.-flat-nose-black-cherry-coated-hard-cast-hunting-ammo/)

Fired 20 rounds of each load through each pistol, no issues at all.

102078

Awesome. I also shot 20 more through today just trying to see if i could figure anything more out. No problems except the ring shavings. I manually stopped the slide and tried to carefully eject the round to see if I could observe any of the shavings or anything looking in the chamber and at the brass, I could not see anything. I racked the slide vigorously and low and behold on the snow a ring appeared. I then loaded and fired single rounds and then tapped the muzzle onto some cardboard and out fell the rings and partial rings for the remainder of the 20 rounds.

I dunno. This 365xl has about 2500 rounds of norma124 and hst147 with no gun related malfunctions. a couple norma primer issues.

I wont be shooting anymore underwood147s through this particular barrel. But i may do what Doug recommended and get a stainless aftermarket barrel throated and just keep that with a mag of underwood in the truck glovebox.

[fatdog]

Risto, thanks for your testing and reporting these results. The ring shaving has alerted a lot of us to potential problems with this round in certain chambers, and certainly reinforces the need for testing/proving that is often repeated and sometimes not heeded.

[Hambo]

No problems except the ring shavings.

I think what you're shaving is the coating, not lead (although it could be). The only time I've seen either was during reloading, when case mouths weren't belled enough prior to bullet seating. I've fired tens of thousands of coated bullets, including 150gr SWC through Berettas and have never seen rings, but the B92 has a fairly generous chamber. The edge of your chamber has to be pretty sharp. If that is in fact the case, I wouldn't be able to resist working on that, but I don't encourage anyone else to do it.

[JHC]

I betcha TEN PF dollars that this would be make a fine $100 field pistol if the heavy cast loads create reliability concerns in a particular pistol.

https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-124gr.-full-metal-jacket-flat-nose-full-metal-jacket-hunting-ammo/

from description:
9MM LUGER +P 124GR. FULL METAL JACKET-FLAT NOSE FULL METAL JACKET HUNTING AMMO

This bullet weighs 124 grains.
This bullet leaves the barrel at 1225 feet per second

[revchuck38]

^^^^If that stuff would work, I guess the new military practice ammo (M1152) using a 115-grain FMJ/FP at >1300 fps (https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/m1152-m1153-the-army-s-new-9-mm-luger-loads/) might well work too. Plus it'd be cheaper.

[GJM]

I betcha TEN PF dollars that this would be make a fine $100 field pistol if the heavy cast loads create reliability concerns in a particular pistol.

https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-124gr.-full-metal-jacket-flat-nose-full-metal-jacket-hunting-ammo/

from description:
9MM LUGER +P 124GR. FULL METAL JACKET-FLAT NOSE FULL METAL JACKET HUNTING AMMO

This bullet weighs 124 grains.
This bullet leaves the barrel at 1225 feet per second

Why not go with the Lehigh penetrator load which is less money and function vetted in many different pistols!

https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-115-grain-xtreme-penetrator/

[JHC]

Why not go with the Lehigh penetrator load which is less money and function vetted in many different pistols!

https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-115-grain-xtreme-penetrator/

For the extra mass of the 124 grains.

[GJM]

Duplicate post

[GJM]

For the extra mass of the 124 grains.

My concern is that the 124 is metal over lead as opposed to coated hard cast or all metal, like the Lehigh. How do we know the 124 flat point will hold together better than economy FMJ?

[JHC]

My concern is that the 124 is metal over lead as opposed to coated hard cast or all metal, like the Lehigh. How do we know the 124 flat point will hold together better than economy FMJ?

During the great ammo famine it got passed around that FMJ was getting to be basically copper plated lead. I never saw any real data on that. I'm skeptical about that.

But there's a bunch of shooting done with 9mm FMJ against barriers that doesn't seem to indicate that's such a thing.

This is just a Youtube short that may not display other than the link re 9mm FMJ shooting a car door. No details on the brand.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R2zA4eGmW3k

Here is a vid of that 124 gr +P Underwood load though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaa4IJvs6KY

But I don't doubt the Extreme Penetrator at 115 grains would do what you've been expecting it to do. For my money its on the lighter end for caliber for whatever that may be worth which might not be much.



ETA this guy compared same 124 gr weigth, same brand, soft point vs FMJ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssy74WIMAlI

[GJM]

During the great ammo famine it got passed around that FMJ was getting to be basically copper plated lead. I never saw any real data on that. I'm skeptical about that.

But there's a bunch of shooting done with 9mm FMJ against barriers that doesn't seem to indicate that's such a thing.

This is just a Youtube short that may not display other than the link re shooting a car door. No details on the brand.


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R2zA4eGmW3k

Here is a vid of that 124 gr +P Underwood load though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaa4IJvs6KY

But I don't doubt the Extreme Penetrator at 115 grains would do what you've been expecting it to do. For my money its on the lighter end for caliber for whatever that may be worth which might not be much.



ETA this guy compared like weights, same brand, soft point vs FMJ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssy74WIMAlI

Monolithic bullets like Barnes rifle bullets and the Lehigh penetrators tend to be light for caliber. I believe it is because of the specific gravity of the alloy. However, Barnes bullets have been effectively killing big stuff now for many years.

[41magfan]

For the extra mass of the 124 grains.

Yep, and the reduced cost is conducive to shooting more as well; $34.99 for 20 rds vs $40.99 for 50 rds.

[maximus83]

Awesome. I also shot 20 more through today just trying to see if i could figure anything more out. No problems except the ring shavings. I manually stopped the slide and tried to carefully eject the round to see if I could observe any of the shavings or anything looking in the chamber and at the brass, I could not see anything. I racked the slide vigorously and low and behold on the snow a ring appeared. I then loaded and fired single rounds and then tapped the muzzle onto some cardboard and out fell the rings and partial rings for the remainder of the 20 rounds.

I dunno. This 365xl has about 2500 rounds of norma124 and hst147 with no gun related malfunctions. a couple norma primer issues.

I wont be shooting anymore underwood147s through this particular barrel. But i may do what Doug recommended and get a stainless aftermarket barrel throated and just keep that with a mag of underwood in the truck glovebox.

+1, adding thanks for your testing and detailed reports on this issue. It's gotta be frustrating, not clear at this point whether it's something going on with your barrel, or the ammo. I've been where you are: you have some kind of an anomaly with a firearm, doesn't make sense, and not everyone else is reproducing the same issue. A couple years ago I had a batch of Hornady 6.5 CM match ammo that was getting stuck in the chamber of my bolt gun (all other factory ammo, including other Hornady loads, were chambering fine from that barrel). When I posted on the Hide, I found a fair number of others had seen this issue, while the majority had not. Hornady CS was pretty cool about it and ultimately replaced the whole 200rds of ammo, and I had no further issues. For the record, they denied it was an ammo issue. But measurements on the OAL of the ammo before I sent it back, by me and a gunsmith who I trust, suggested the ammo was out of spec. That was a common view on the Hide, that Hornady has this issue at times. Seems like even (mostly) reputable ammo manufacturers can release lots of ammo that have issues, especially when they're under duress like ammo shortages. Still, if I was betting probabilities, I'd agree with what others here have said and start by checking out or even replacing your barrel, if Sig will do it. It doesn't make sense that these rounds wouldn't fit in the barrel just because the 365 is a "micro pistol", it should still be a standard sized barrel and chamber.

[41magfan]

With no intentions of derailing the discussion, are there any credible reports from the field demonstrating how any of these monolithic bullets (fired from handguns) perform against flesh and blood?

[GJM]

With no intentions of derailing the discussion, are there any credible reports from the field demonstrating how any of these monolithic bullets (fired from handguns) perform against flesh and blood?

I have fired "finishing shots" through the skull on elk with 9 and 45 Lehigh, but I don't conclude much from that.

[41magfan]

I have fired "finishing shots" through the skull on elk with 9 and 45 Lehigh, but I don't conclude much from that.

I have a sincere reason for asking.

As a handgun hunter and LEO, I've been an amateur student of terminal ballistics for 40 yrs and this has been the primary take-away;

Bullet performance is unbelievably predictable when bullets are fired into test medium(s), but when the same bullet is fired into flesh and blood, the results are quite often totally unpredictable. Some of the incidents I've witnessed have been quite baffling.

As popular as these solid projectiles are these days, I'm hoping there will be some field performance data to scrutinize sooner or later.

[1Rangemaster]

I poked at this a bit this afternoon after work-certainly no exhaustive and far ranging investigation…

Buffalo Bore on their site has a story of an Alaskan guide who defended himself and his clients with their 147 gr. 9mm lead flat point against a bear. It worked, after multiple rounds expended resulting in a dead bear. S&W auto, brought along almost as an afterthought.

It’s quite possible these incidents are few and far between. I recall reading about one handgun failure. An Airman went hiking in Alaska and had a .38 snub nose revolver. Apparently, he had a confrontation with a bear, engaged him and did not survive. I believe one could find examples both positive and negative, from the human standpoint. Do we have examples of .41 Magnum “saves”, for example?

GJM carries a shotgun with slugs in Alaska when he is hiking. He has vastly more experience than I do, and I think he also carries a sidearm on occasion as a backup. I suppose what I’m trying to say is that a G19, vetted with “penetration” ammo seems reasonable from what little I know.

I hope to sometime this spring shoot some hogs/pigs in the wild. I’ll report if and when that happens.

[GJM]

I think the question was field reports on monolithic solid pistol bullets, like the Lehigh. Self defense on bears is hard to get good data, because you are trying to stop the attack, and even poor bullet performance can do that. In some ways, hunting might be a better test, as you have to drop the animal and you get to possibly recover bullets.

I need to ping Bill Wilson. As of a few years ago, he had successfully shot a bunch of hogs with Barnes bullets in 9mm, and I am highly confident that with Wilson Combat having bought Lehigh, he has whacked a bunch of hogs with those bullets.

[41magfan]

I think the question was field reports on monolithic solid pistol bullets, like the Lehigh. Self defense on bears is hard to get good data, because you are trying to stop the attack, and even poor bullet performance can do that. In some ways, hunting might be a better test, as you have to drop the animal and you get to possibly recover bullets.

I need to ping Bill Wilson. As of a few years ago, he had successfully shot a bunch of hogs with Barnes bullets in 9mm, and I am highly confident that with Wilson Combat having bought Lehigh, he has whacked a bunch of hogs with those bullets.

I heard him say his total kills number in the thousands, and just last month he said that he had taken something like 260 hogs so far just this calendar year. That's a lot of bacon!

ETA: I'm reasonably certain most of these were with long-guns since the context of the conversation was rifle cartridge/load development. I too, would like to hear about pistol cartridge performance.

[maximus83]

With no intentions of derailing the discussion, are there any credible reports from the field demonstrating how any of these monolithic bullets (fired from handguns) perform against flesh and blood?

It's a great question, one that I have when this subject comes up. And it all hinges on the word "credible." It's hard to find reliable data on this subject, but there are some "credible" anecdotal reports out there. One example already listed in this thread, Bill Wilson's experiences. Looking forward to hearing about that.

Here's an article I ran across a couple years ago (sadly, not specific to monolithic bullets), and posted about on M4carbine. The writer compiled a large number of known cases of successful bear defense with a pistol or handgun, and organized by caliber. As with all anecdotal reports, it's likely some of these would turn out to be not reliable. But it's also probably the best information we're going to get of an informal type, where it's not something like data compiled by the DNR's of the various states, etc.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/

(https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/)And ETA, an updated version by the same author:
https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/update-of-pistol-defenses-against-bears-123-cases-98-effective/

[GJM]

It's a great question, one that I have when this subject comes up. And it all hinges on the word "credible." It's hard to find reliable data on this subject, but there are some "credible" anecdotal reports out there. One example already listed in this thread, Bill Wilson's experiences. Looking forward to hearing about that.

Here's an article I ran across a couple years ago (sadly, not specific to monolithic bullets), and posted about on M4carbine. The writer compiled a large number of known cases of successful bear defense with a pistol or handgun, and organized by caliber. As with all anecdotal reports, it's likely some of these would turn out to be not reliable. But it's also probably the best information we're going to get of an informal type, where it's not something like data compiled by the DNR's of the various states, etc.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/

(https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/)And ETA, an updated version by the same author:
https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/update-of-pistol-defenses-against-bears-123-cases-98-effective/

This reinforces my belief that having a handgun, being able to access it quickly, and having it be reliable trumps bullet caliber and selection. However, it is nice to have a reliable handgun that is accessible AND has a bullet capable of penetrating the brain, for a low probability event that requires that to avoid injury to you and others with you.

[Navin Johnson]

It's a great question, one that I have when this subject comes up. And it all hinges on the word "credible." It's hard to find reliable data on this subject, but there are some "credible" anecdotal reports out there. One example already listed in this thread, Bill Wilson's experiences. Looking forward to hearing about that.

Here's an article I ran across a couple years ago (sadly, not specific to monolithic bullets), and posted about on M4carbine. The writer compiled a large number of known cases of successful bear defense with a pistol or handgun, and organized by caliber. As with all anecdotal reports, it's likely some of these would turn out to be not reliable. But it's also probably the best information we're going to get of an informal type, where it's not something like data compiled by the DNR's of the various states, etc.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/

(https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/)And ETA, an updated version by the same author:
https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/update-of-pistol-defenses-against-bears-123-cases-98-effective/

Nothing meaningful about caliber or projectile can be taken from the above articles. With some the firearm was unknown, few if any referenced ammo (ie did all the magnums have magnum ammo loaded). Many of the 44's may have had AE 240 grain hp's or sp's etc. or what was at the hardware store. Great stories though.....

Law enforcement in animal areas might give the best evidence as caliber and projectile would be on record.

Mindset, tactics and a reliable firearm.....

The guide with the afterthought SW 9mm with 147 "penetrators" is all the rage but would 147/124+p service ammo have worked? Was it him or the pistol or the ammo?

My guess is many of the pistols had RN or cheap holla-points

[ECVMatt]

As for actual testing in the field....

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=389

If you scroll to the bottom, you can read the actual account from the guide that used the 9mm to stop the bear.

[MickAK]

With no intentions of derailing the discussion, are there any credible reports from the field demonstrating how any of these monolithic bullets (fired from handguns) perform against flesh and blood?

I can report they do their job but it's a 9mm bullet so I'm not asking them to do a particularly difficult job. I haven't taken any shots where a FMJ round wouldn't have resulted in a kill as well but I'm not really a handgun hunter, more of an opportunistic hiker that likes to practice stalking on occasion.

I haven't seen one do something unusual yet in the poor performance direction. I'm not qualified to evaluate the good performance direction.

[GJM]

As for actual testing in the field....

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=389

If you scroll to the bottom, you can read the actual account from the guide that used the 9mm to stop the bear.

I think the question was about monolithic solids like the Lehigh and Cutting Edge. Phil Shoemaker who stopped the bear was using hard cast lead. For those not familiar, he is an Alaska master guide, specializing in brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula, where his lodge is located.

[Navin Johnson]

I think the question was about monolithic solids like the Lehigh and Cutting Edge. Phil Shoemaker who stopped the bear was using hard cast lead. For those not familiar, he is an Alaska master guide, specializing in brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula, where his lodge is located.

So…… does anyone know why an “Alaska Master Guide” would carry a compact 9mm in Brownie territory?

I’m Not being a smart ass.

[GJM]

So…… does anyone know why an “Alaska Master Guide” would carry a compact 9mm in Brownie territory?

I’m Not being a smart ass.

Google is your friend.

https://www.americanhunter.org/content/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

[Navin Johnson]

"The larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows"

This "guide" needs some diversity training.....

[GJM]

"The larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows"

This "guide" needs some diversity training.....

You are out of your lane on this topic.

[GJM]

Phil's operation is one I hope to visit. He has been writing about big bore guns for years, and I believe, in the past, carried a .458 model 70 for backing up clients. Here is what they are up to:

https://grizzlyskinsofalaska.com/about-us/

[41magfan]

Phil's operation is one I hope to visit. He has been writing about big bore guns for years, and I believe, in the past, carried a .458 model 70 for backing up clients. Here is what they are up to:

https://grizzlyskinsofalaska.com/about-us/

Not unlike many of our "bear pistol" discussions, I noted some interesting parallels some years ago when Phil contributed much to a long running thread on another Forum about "bear rifles". The final word he offered as fodder for consideration was that a 180-220 gr properly constructed bullet from a 30-06 was probably a hunters best option. In fact, it's what he routinely carried himself and it also served as his "loaner" gun. Apparently, many of his hunter clients couldn't shoot the bigger (better) guns well enough to offer any useful advantage.

Somewhere in the discussion he said that his daughter normally carried a stainless K-Frame .357 (Mod 65 or 66) loaded with 180 gr cast bullets.

[GJM]

Before I forget, this picture of Phil Shoemaker does a great job of illustrating why I like a red as opposed to a green dot optic in places like AK in the non-winter months.

102171

[GJM]

At 6:00, man shoots at grizzly, hits himself in the leg in the process, and the bear runs off. Guess it is another win for a handgun?


https://youtu.be/tCYJAUcJ3GA

[1Rangemaster]

At 6:00, man shoots at grizzly, hits himself in the leg in the process, and the bear runs off. Guess it is another win for a handgun?


https://youtu.be/tCYJAUcJ3GA

Well…he’s still with us, so I guess one could say that. Talk about friendly fire, though- it’s sorta like using your ship to ram another one and you sink in the process. He was lucky, I think.
I also can’t help but think that many folks buy the handgun as a talisman. Run a few rounds through it and good(?) to go. Same thing happens with self defense firearms…
Glad he survived-Mother Nature is a bitch. In this case, she seemed forgetful.

[Clusterfrack]

At 6:00, man shoots at grizzly, hits himself in the leg in the process, and the bear runs off. Guess it is another win for a handgun?


https://youtu.be/tCYJAUcJ3GA

Was this piece done by an AI bot? I couldn’t get through it.

[GJM]

Well…he’s still with us, so I guess one could say that. Talk about friendly fire, though- it’s sorta like using your ship to ram another one and you sink in the process. He was lucky, I think.
I also can’t help but think that many folks buy the handgun as a talisman. Run a few rounds through it and good(?) to go. Same thing happens with self defense firearms…
Glad he survived-Mother Nature is a bitch. In this case, she seemed forgetful.

A guy from town, when across the bay, got attacked by a brown bear. He had a Glock 10. First shot hit the bear, stopping the attack. Second shot went into the ground between home and the bear. Third shot went through his foot. He still limps around town.

[GJM]

On the testing front, I shot 20 rounds of the Underwood 147+P hard cast through a Walther PDP 4.5 without issue. First, I shot five rounds at 25 yards. It seemed to hit an inch or so high.

102181

I held down an inch and shot another five at 25.

102182

With my ten rounds left, I shot an array, immediately followed by the same array with 124 Lawman. You can see I shoot the Lawman a bit faster, but probably not enough to matter in a field application.


https://youtu.be/buFdATSxKUU

[1Rangemaster]

Talk about anticipation/pre-ignition push!

Edit: I’m taking about the bear incident, not your shooting, GJM!

2nd edit: looks like the UW load works in German and Austrian platforms.

[Risto]

Just wanted to provide a quick little update on my p365xl with these hardcast type bullets.
I experienced a very similar problem with LostRivers 148s. I only shot 17 rounds of LRs 148s but noticed a few semicircle shavings and one FTF. So I’m confident it’s my particular pistol.

I also received a callback from Sig and the tech said they don’t recommend shooting anything but fmj or jhp because that’s what the gun was designed around yadda yadda. I mentioned that a few other folks don’t seem to be having this issue with the same ammo and gun and he said he was confident it’s not the gun or barrel but rather the hardcast bullets and shapes. I didn’t push the matter.

I think I’ll start the search for a stainless throated barrel.

[Velo Dog]

https://youtu.be/6wk6TckggNQ


https://youtu.be/6wk6TckggNQ

[JHC]

https://youtu.be/6wk6TckggNQ


https://youtu.be/6wk6TckggNQ

124 grain FMJ FTW! interesting.

[Velo Dog]

124 grain FMJ FTW! interesting.

Some call it 9x19mm Parabellum, others know it as 9mm Luger, but I say it's .35 Super Carry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bau4aPKwgg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bau4aPKwgg

[GJM]

I got some of the G9 Defense Woodsman penetrator ammo in to check out.

104436

Small sample size, but I shot 5 rounds through a Glock 47, 5 rounds through a Gen 4 19 with a Mayhem barrel and comp, and 10 rounds through a Gen 5 26 with a Mayhem barrel and comp with no issues. It seemed to shoot an inch or two high. Here is the Glock 47 group from 20 yards.

104439

Good to have another penetrator load available.

[Lost River]

GJM, et al,

How about a .40 caliber 170 grain poly coated SWC at 1200 FPS.

I have been shooting these for a while now. There has never been any question about my love of a G21, but there is something to be said about the shooting speed possible from a smaller frame.

https://i.imgur.com/MW57sxvh.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/zakuPZSh.jpg


These run through my Gen 3 G22 phenomenally well.

Heck they run through a G20 perfectly from what I have found through T&E.

[GJM]

I think I Gen 5 23 would be an ideal launcher, as the extra mass in the slide helps settle this pistol.

[GJM]

A month or so ago, I shot a box of 20 Underwood 147+P hard cast thru my Glock 47, and had an instance of the slide locking back with cartridges still in the magazine. Yesterday, I shot another box of 20 through a different G47. Again, had a lock back with rounds in the mag.

Discussing this with 1Rangemaster, he reminded me that Underwood changed the bullet in that load. Here is his picture.

105903

The older version was the bullet profile I experienced an issue with, and the newer bullet seems to have a smaller meplat. Will experiment more, but for now I am only carrying jacketed penetrator loads in my 9mm Glocks.

[eric0311]

A month or so ago, I shot a box of 20 Underwood 147+P hard cast thru my Glock 47, and had an instance of the slide locking back with cartridges still in the magazine. Yesterday, I shot another box of 20 through a different G47. Again, had a lock back with rounds in the mag.

Discussing this with 1Rangemaster, he reminded me that Underwood changed the bullet in that load. Here is his picture.

105903

The older version was the bullet profile I experienced an issue with, and the newer bullet seems to have a smaller meplat. Will experiment more, but for now I am only carrying jacketed penetrator loads in my 9mm Glocks.

The 147 grain +p Underwood rounds that I tested (approx. 80 fired) had the recent profile of the “reddish” colored version, left in your last picture. My test pistol was a Glock 19 Gen5.

Of note, I had issues of unintentionally locking the slide to the rear, due to the Gen 5’s newer, more pronounced slide release lever… I was bumping the slide release with my support hand thumb. It was happening with all ammo types. I installed a Kagwerks Gen5 slide release, which cured all of my early/unintentional slide lock issues… maybe it could work for you?

[GJM]

The 147 grain +p Underwood rounds that I tested (approx. 80 fired) had the recent profile of the “reddish” colored version, left in your last picture. My test pistol was a Glock 19 Gen5.

Of note, I had issues of unintentionally locking the slide to the rear, due to the Gen 5’s newer, more pronounced slide release lever… I was bumping the slide release with my support hand thumb. It was happening with all ammo types. I installed a Kagwerks Gen5 slide release, which cured all of my early/unintentional slide lock issues… maybe it could work for you?

It is quite possible between the cold temps lately in AK and the higher power factor of this load, my grip is shifting and contacting the left side of the slide stop. I had a similar issue with the G5 20 and heavy ammo. I fixed that with a beaver tail but don't want to do that with my small frame Glocks.

[eric0311]

It is quite possible between the cold temps lately in AK and the higher power factor of this load, my grip is shifting and contacting the left side of the slide stop. I had a similar issue with the G5 20 and heavy ammo. I fixed that with a beaver tail but don't want to do that with my small frame Glocks.

That does sound like a possible cause… it might be worth the try for the Kagwerks…

[GJM]

That does sound like a possible cause… it might be worth the try for the Kagwerks…

Looks like they are on back order everywhere I have checked -- another possibility is aggressively reducing the size of the OEM part. If you have a lead on the Kagwerks, please let me know.

[eric0311]

Looks like they are on back order everywhere I have checked -- another possibility is aggressively reducing the size of the OEM part. If you have a lead on the Kagwerks, please let me know.

Will do! I had to cut my Glock 35 (gen3) slide stop down, similar to what Dave Sevigny was doing with his competition G35… (this is his g35, taken from open source)… it was my inspiration to fight premature slide lock…it worked as well.


105990

[maximus83]

Of note, I had issues of unintentionally locking the slide to the rear, due to the Gen 5’s newer, more pronounced slide release lever… I was bumping the slide release with my support hand thumb. It was happening with all ammo types.

Agree, based on my experience with my G19/G45 Gen 5's, this sounds like a possible cause of the premature slide lockback. I also had a few issues with slide failing to lock back on empty due to, again, contacting the slide release while firing. Ran into this several times regardless of ammo type until I corrected grip slightly--didn't take much.

Also FWIW to GJM: I've put about 100 rds total of the newer version of the UW 147 +p hardcast bullet that you pictured, plus the competing Buffalo Bore 147gr hardcast, through my new G47. No issues so far. Too small a sample to draw conclusions, but still a useful data point. I haven't seen an issue yet with either the Buffalo Bore or the UW hardcast in any of my 365's or Glocks. I'd love to get to higher round counts to increase the confidence level, but that ammo is pricey per round to do all that testing.

[WDR]

GJM Have you ever tried the Federal "Solid Core" 9mm load: https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/premium-handgun-hunting/solid-core/11-P9SHC1.html


I've been curious about it since it was announced, and I don't remember seeing it mentioned in this thread yet. They claim 1120fps from a 4" gun. I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that this stuff has nickle cases and sealed primers (I have not confirmed that part), which for field ammo, might be a good thing. It's fairly expensive compared to Underwood or the loads Lost River is now cranking out. It can be found for $26-27 box of 20 online.

I'm also sort of bumping this thread for my own reasons, as I'll be visiting Grand Teton, maybe Yellowstone, and probably fishing a little along the Grays River in Wyoming in a few weeks. I'll likely roll some of my own 147gr hard cast, and probably buy some of Lost River's loads before then (if he restocks soon), but I figured the Federal load may also be an option, if I find some before my trip.

[GJM]

GJM Have you ever tried the Federal "Solid Core" 9mm load: https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/premium-handgun-hunting/solid-core/11-P9SHC1.html


I've been curious about it since it was announced, and I don't remember seeing it mentioned in this thread yet. They claim 1120fps from a 4" gun. I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that this stuff has nickle cases and sealed primers (I have not confirmed that part), which for field ammo, might be a good thing. It's fairly expensive compared to Underwood or the loads Lost River is now cranking out. It can be found for $26-27 box of 20 online.

I'm also sort of bumping this thread for my own reasons, as I'll be visiting Grand Teton, maybe Yellowstone, and probably fishing a little along the Grays River in Wyoming in a few weeks. I'll likely roll some of my own 147gr hard cast, and probably buy some of Lost River's loads before then (if he restocks soon), but I figured the Federal load may also be an option, if I find some before my trip.

I have not checked out this load, but you should try some and see how it runs in your pistol. I like that it is coated. I have a preference for jacketed bullet loads in semi auto pistols, but that is probably more anecdotal than hard science.

[Lost River]

GJM Have you ever tried the Federal "Solid Core" 9mm load: https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/premium-handgun-hunting/solid-core/11-P9SHC1.html


I've been curious about it since it was announced, and I don't remember seeing it mentioned in this thread yet. They claim 1120fps from a 4" gun. I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that this stuff has nickle cases and sealed primers (I have not confirmed that part), which for field ammo, might be a good thing. It's fairly expensive compared to Underwood or the loads Lost River is now cranking out. It can be found for $26-27 box of 20 online.

I'm also sort of bumping this thread for my own reasons, as I'll be visiting Grand Teton, maybe Yellowstone, and probably fishing a little along the Grays River in Wyoming in a few weeks. I'll likely roll some of my own 147gr hard cast, and probably buy some of Lost River's loads before then (if he restocks soon), but I figured the Federal load may also be an option, if I find some before my trip.


WDR

Thanks for tagging me.

Just an update. Typical small biz headaches. I actually have the ammo. It is the packaging that is giving me fits. Been going rounds for weeks trying to secure proper boxes with my logo on them, and get them shipped, which is proving to be a massive headache. The ones I had initially produced for the large 325 grain .45 Colt had to be custom produced as nobody made a box that tall. It was literally about .2" too tall.

The boxes I received were good, but they needed improvement and not exactly what I wanted. They opened at opposite ends. So unless you knew which side was up you could open the wrong side and have rounds upside down. That was fixed (in theory) by labeling, but the future boxes need to be better in multiple ways as far as I am concerned and I have been working trying to get a manufacturer who can make what I need. That is proving to be difficult, to put it mildly.

I do have clear plastic boxes in the interim that I will be using, so I will get the 9mms back in stock very shortly. They are not ideal, but they will work temporarily until I can get a box built that is actually built right. This is about round 4 or 5 maybe.

Who knew packaging would be such a struggle.. :D

[Lost River]

WDR

I now have those 9mms back up in stock. :cool:

[WDR]

WDR

I now have those 9mms back up in stock. :cool:

Thank you! Order placed!

[msstate56]

GJM Have you ever tried the Federal "Solid Core" 9mm load: https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/premium-handgun-hunting/solid-core/11-P9SHC1.html


I've been curious about it since it was announced, and I don't remember seeing it mentioned in this thread yet. They claim 1120fps from a 4" gun. I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that this stuff has nickle cases and sealed primers (I have not confirmed that part), which for field ammo, might be a good thing. It's fairly expensive compared to Underwood or the loads Lost River is now cranking out. It can be found for $26-27 box of 20 online.

I'm also sort of bumping this thread for my own reasons, as I'll be visiting Grand Teton, maybe Yellowstone, and probably fishing a little along the Grays River in Wyoming in a few weeks. I'll likely roll some of my own 147gr hard cast, and probably buy some of Lost River's loads before then (if he restocks soon), but I figured the Federal load may also be an option, if I find some before my trip.

I purchased 200 of these about 2 months ago, but have yet to get out and test them. Maybe soon (tm). They are nickel cases and appear to have primer sealant.

[rd62]

WDR

I now have those 9mms back up in stock. :cool:

You've got one less box now!

[Lost River]

I appreciate it.

The heavy hardcast 9mms are certainly a popular round, as so many people prefer to roll with what they know and they are definitely easy to shoot well/fast.

Trying to get some ammo boxes headed my way (still) and being educated on the fun and games involved with the box industry. Sheesh. :cool:

[WDR]

WDR

Ordered at 12:30, shipping notification by 3:00, and tracking says it should be here tomorrow! Part of that is how close I am to you... But impressive packing/shipping speed! Just want to give a shout out and a "Thank You!" here.

[Velo Dog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We_aHSA2Pbc

https://ballisticdummylab.com/products/ballistic-gel-loaded-grizzly-bear-head

Another gel test demonstrating the penetration potential of hard-cast 9mm Luger.