Federal Syntech Defense 9mm

[trispeed]

Hi all! I am wondering why this ammo is not more popular and if there are any real world results from it's use? Federal Syntech 138 gr 9mm. Seems like a sharp shouldered base penetrating 18" with 3 petals going several inches off the main wound track with 6 to 8 inches penetration would really be something. That's the result of all the gel tests I've seen. Whaddya think?

[JCN]

Hi all! I am wondering why this ammo is not more popular and if there are any real world results from it's use? Federal Syntech 138 gr 9mm. Seems like a sharp shouldered base penetrating 18" with 3 petals going several inches off the main wound track with 6 to 8 inches penetration would really be something. That's the result of all the gel tests I've seen. Whaddya think?

How about we flip that on its head and I said….


I have HST+P that is a known quantity and proven many times over.

What would motivate me to choose anything other than that for self defense?

It’s not like I burn through much (any) of it so cost really isn’t a consideration.

Eli Dickens stopped an active shooter with Blazer Brass ball ammo so I’m sure this new ammo would work fine…

But for me, why would I want to gamble?

[cosermann]

...Seems like ...6 to 8 inches penetration would really be something. ...

Nope. Modern standards for defensive handgun ammunition consider 6-8 inches of penetration to be inadequate.

This has been the case since at least 1989.

https://archive.org/details/fbi-handgun-wounding-factors-and-effectiveness/mode/2up

There's your answer.

Edit: Also, read the ammunition sub forum stickies.

[GyroF-16]

Hi all! I am wondering why this ammo is not more popular and if there are any real world results from it's use? Federal Syntech 138 gr 9mm. Seems like a sharp shouldered base penetrating 18" with 3 petals going several inches off the main wound track with 6 to 8 inches penetration would really be something. That's the result of all the gel tests I've seen. Whaddya think?

Well, I think the desired penetration depth in properly calibrated ballistic get is 12-18”. The 6-8” you describe seems to fall well outside that optimal range.

[Default.mp3]

The core of the bullet has been tested to reach the requisite 12" to 18" of penetration in bare gel and heavy clothing tests. The 6" figure comes from the penetration of the secondary petals that sheer off and create secondary wound channels.

Note that no figures are provided for any other barrier testing, which I would think would automatically rule this out for use for most duty applications. It appears to be simply a normal hollowpoint with the gimmick of the secondary wound channels, and would not be barrier blind, which to me is an absolute must in any duty/self-defense ammunition if given the option.

I'd strongly advise sticking to the recommended ammunition as published by @DocGKR (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=8): https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

[the Schwartz]

Hi all! I am wondering why this ammo is not more popular and if there are any real world results from it's use? Federal Syntech 138 gr 9mm. Seems like a sharp shouldered base penetrating 18" with 3 petals going several inches off the main wound track with 6 to 8 inches penetration would really be something. That's the result of all the gel tests I've seen. Whaddya think?

From Aguila's High Power Fragmenting Hollow Point to Liberty Ammunition's Civil Defense Hollow Point to G2 Research's R.I.P. hollow point, it's a concept that has been tried, failed, tried again and failed again....ad nauseam.

Those looking for the proverbial ''free lunch'' (trying to circumvent the immutable laws of physics) or those who buy into the ''energy dump'' or ''blast pressure wave'' arguments are the usual target market for munitions like these.

Besides being unjustifiably expensive, projectile designs of this type typically shed 40% - 60% of their mass at impact (in the form of petals, fragments, splinters, or shards that rarely penetrate more than 3 - 5 inches) leaving a light-weight cylindrical base that produces an unremarkable permanent cavity less than one caliber in diameter and inadequate penetration (usually <12 inches).

Why anyone would pay the additional premium to saddle themselves with such lackluster performance is beyond me.

[trispeed]

Nope. Modern standards for defensive handgun ammunition consider 6-8 inches of penetration to be inadequate.

This has been the case since at least 1989.

https://archive.org/details/fbi-handgun-wounding-factors-and-effectiveness/mode/2up

There's your answer.

Edit: Also, read the ammunition sub forum stickies.

cute the way you quoted that :-) that's for 3 petals off the track of the 18" penetration of the base.

[trispeed]

From Aguila's High Power Fragmenting Hollow Point to Liberty Ammunition's Civil Defense Hollow Point to G2 Research's R.I.P. hollow point, it's a concept that has been tried, failed, tried again and failed again....ad nauseam.

Those looking for the proverbial ''free lunch'' (trying to circumvent the immutable laws of physics) or those who buy into the ''energy dump'' or ''blast pressure wave'' arguments are the usual target market for munitions like these.

Besides being unjustifiably expensive, projectile designs of this type typically shed 40% - 60% of their mass at impact (in the form of petals, fragments, splinters, or shards that rarely penetrate more than 3 - 5 inches) leaving a light-weight cylindrical base that produces an unremarkable permanent cavity less than one caliber in diameter and inadequate penetration (usually <12 inches).

Why anyone would pay the additional premium to saddle themselves with such lackluster performance is beyond me.

all the gel tests indicate 18" for the base and 6 to 8" for the 3 petals in about a 6" diameter conical pattern. That seems quite impressive and I've read all the ammo stickies, cheers!

[trispeed]

all the gel tests indicate 18" for the base and 6 to 8" for the 3 petals in about a 6" diameter conical pattern. That seems quite impressive and I've read all the ammo stickies, cheers!

I would add that the base is full caliber with a flat, sharp edged nose, sharper than a full wadcutter for example.

[PNWTO]

Whaddya think?

Schwarz already covered it completely. It's a gimmick load for YouTube hucksters. Seems to happen every few years, i.e. Glaser Safety Slugs, G2 RIP, etc, etc. There's a fairly proven set of characteristics to look for in a load and shedding a few letter-grade percentages of mass isn't one.

The only gun-zine reviews I've seen of the Syntech mention using Clear Ballistics as the medium and never using any denim or barrier-ish things. This has been well discussed on P-F but I wouldn't trust those numbers to be reflective of reality and makes the retained weight matter even more concerning.

[trispeed]

Schwarz already covered it completely. It's a gimmick load for YouTube hucksters. Seems to happen every few years, i.e. Glaser Safety Slugs, G2 RIP, etc, etc. There's a fairly proven set of characteristics to look for in a load and shedding a few letter-grade percentages of mass isn't one.

The only gun-zine reviews I've seen of the Syntech mention using Clear Ballistics as the medium and never using any denim or barrier-ish things. This has been well discussed on P-F but I wouldn't trust those numbers to be reflective of reality and makes the retained weight matter even more concerning.

there are a number of gel tests 2- 3 years old (when this ammo was released) that used bare gel and heavy denim with essentially identical results, I thought that was interesting. Doesn't seem probable that federal would release a true 'gimmick' load but....?
seems like a hasty refutation from most of the respondents here but hey, I'm grumpy when it comes to things I'm an expert on. Ammo is not one of them :-)

[trispeed]

here are a bunch of tests with bare gel, heavy clothing and drywall ahead of the gel. Seems to refute the negative opinions here, just FYI.

personal defense world https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dma2-rK2UYo
federal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Zdm5hVrIw
tnoutdoors9 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjl2HftYkmI
handguns mag https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/federal-syntech-defense-ammo/370339
guns america digest https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/federal-syntech-defense-ammo-testing/
gun digest https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/syntech-defense-put-a-twist-on-the-hollow-point

[MickAK]

Doesn't seem probable that federal would release a true 'gimmick' load but....?


Federal is in the business of selling ammunition. If they think it will sell they will release it. It's cheaper than HST for a reason. If they can make it and sell more of it why not? It's not like they're substituting it for HST in department contracts.

Federal doesn't have a responsibility to only sell ammo that's the best choice. As long as it functions as advertised that's the end of their responsibility. I don't think anyone is throwing their HST away because Federal released a 'gimmick' round.

There are reasons why people don't want their ammunition doing this. If you want your ammo to do it go ahead.

[PNWTO]

trispeed, don’t take the following brevity as abrasive; it’s the curtness required by a busy day.

Thanks for the links but they don’t change my opinion and some still use the CB product. There are wiser users than myself that can offer a better dissection.

I don’t find the comparison of ammo performance that fulfilling; gratitude to the SMEs for that. It’s the whole “better hammer for the same ol’ nail” that’s tiresome and, usually, doesn’t actually pan out. PF has great and detailed documentation of some great loads and many users have seen the effects during professional use.

Maybe they’ll continue to refine Syntech in the future and we’ll all eat crow.

Lastly, Federal is one of my preferred companies but, as mentioned above, as long as their accountants and contracts are happy they don’t have a duty for much else.

[perlslacker]

Syntech 9mm Defensive is ~63cpr from targetsportsusa right now. They have 115gr Gold Dots, which aren't the most preferred load but they still test well, for 64cpr. They also have 147gr HSTs for about 70cpr pretty regularly, with the 124gr flavors of Gold Dots and HSTs in the 80cpr range.

If they were 30cpr or less, I'd say that they would maybe be an option for someone who's broke. If it punches a hole 18" deep in ballistics gel through heavy clothing, that's (IMO) Good Enough. But at the current price point there are other options that are much more proven for not that much more money.

[358156hp]

I looked at some of the links OP provided. We appear to have a swaged core with tearaway petals, covered with a poly coating similar to powdercoat. Not being a fan of fragmenting bullets, I'll revisit this brand in a year or so to see how it matures over time. I never bought into prefragmented types like Glaser or Magsafe either. I also see no reaction from the Law Enforcement community on testing, when a major LE Agency tests it I'll be more interested. One quick rule of thumb I follow is very similar to what others are saying. Are Cops carrying it, and does it have any kind of track record. Many shooters simply carry the same ammo as the FBI or local Law Enforcement.

I checked, OP signed up here and this is their first post? All about one ammo loading?

[the Schwartz]

here are a bunch of tests with bare gel, heavy clothing and drywall ahead of the gel. Seems to refute the negative opinions here, just FYI.

personal defense world https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dma2-rK2UYo
federal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Zdm5hVrIw
tnoutdoors9 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjl2HftYkmI
handguns mag https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/federal-syntech-defense-ammo/370339
guns america digest https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/federal-syntech-defense-ammo-testing/
gun digest https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/syntech-defense-put-a-twist-on-the-hollow-point


Rather than refuting the historically-based claims and experiences based upon actual research that have been stated here, all of the links that you've provided confirm the qualitative and quantitative performance of projectile designs that fragment excessively.

Relying on the Clear Ballistics Gel product as a terminal ballistic test medium introduces significant confounding factors and incalculable error into the process that are wisely avoided through the use of a valid tissue simulant. Substantial discussion of this particular issue is readily available on this subforum if one is interested in doing their own due diligence.

[trispeed]

Rather than refuting the historically-based claims and experiences based upon actual research that have been stated here, all of the links that you've provided confirm the qualitative and quantitative performance of projectile designs that fragment excessively.

Relying on the Clear Ballistics Gel product as a terminal ballistic test medium introduces significant confounding factors and incalculable error into the process that are wisely avoided through the use of a valid tissue simulant. Substantial discussion of this particular issue is readily available on this subforum if one is interested in doing their own due diligence.

only a couple used the clear ballistics gel, btw. cheers!

[trispeed]

I looked at some of the links OP provided. We appear to have a swaged core with tearaway petals, covered with a poly coating similar to powdercoat. Not being a fan of fragmenting bullets, I'll revisit this brand in a year or so to see how it matures over time. I never bought into prefragmented types like Glaser or Magsafe either. I also see no reaction from the Law Enforcement community on testing, when a major LE Agency tests it I'll be more interested. One quick rule of thumb I follow is very similar to what others are saying. Are Cops carrying it, and does it have any kind of track record. Many shooters simply carry the same ammo as the FBI or local Law Enforcement.

I checked, OP signed up here and this is their first post? All about one ammo loading?

yessir, just signed up and had a question. I would not consider what law enforcement or the military uses to necessarily be of much import, as they are limited in most cases by admin./ cost/ political elements that we don't need to succumb to.
I like to ask questions and then think for myself. Cheers!
BTW, What I am getting from this forum so far is a lot of resistance to anything outside the norm which makes me think that the ammo in question is probably the right choice for me. :-)

[JCN]

yessir, just signed up and had a question. I would not consider what law enforcement or the military uses to necessarily be of much import, as they are limited in most cases by admin./ cost/ political elements that we don't need to succumb to.
I like to ask questions and then think for myself. Cheers!
BTW, What I am getting from this forum so far is a lot of resistance to anything outside the norm which makes me think that the ammo in question is probably the right choice for me. :-)

You might enjoy this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?55495-What-is-THE-most-hipster-handgun%85

[JCN]

yessir, just signed up and had a question. I would not consider what law enforcement or the military uses to necessarily be of much import, as they are limited in most cases by admin./ cost/ political elements that we don't need to succumb to.
I like to ask questions and then think for myself. Cheers!
BTW, What I am getting from this forum so far is a lot of resistance to anything outside the norm which makes me think that the ammo in question is probably the right choice for me. :-)

I think that your criticism has some merit.

Is 9mm really the best caliber or is that a cost / training standard / political compromise?

10mm, 357 Sig and 357 Magnum may be better choices for you and me!

But the flip side is… HST does have a pretty damn good track record in 9mm and barring a lot of personal hunting or self defense data, this Federal load is an unknown.

I’d suggest going hog hunting or deer hunting with this ammo and see for yourself if it does what you want it to do.

Most people here would take known real life data over theoretical, untested on the street data. YMMV.

[RJ]

Huh. Target Sports USA has it at buck fifty a round. From the blurb:

...provides dynamic terminal performance with a hollow-point bullet that separates into three segments and a deep-penetrating core on impact. The core penetrates 12 to 18 inches through bare ballistics gel and heavy clothing — a critical benchmark in self-defense situations and the best terminal performance of any round in its class. The petals create three secondary wound channels, each more than 6 inches deep, adding to the terminal effect.

That sounded familiar, so I looked up G2 RIP:

...a devastatingly effective choice for the concealed carry enthusiast. This 9mm ammo features a precision-machined solid copper lead-free projectile designed to produce deep penetration of fourteen to sixteen inches and a six-inch spread of nine separate wound channels.

Seems like the same marketing BS to me. Even down to the "six inch spread". Yeah, no. This ammo probably appeals to those on the first segment of the D-K curve, though.

I'll just stick to my Gold Dot 124+p, and get back to working on shot placement, thanks.

[Hambo]

here are a bunch of tests with bare gel, heavy clothing and drywall ahead of the gel. Seems to refute the negative opinions here, just FYI.

personal defense world https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dma2-rK2UYo
federal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Zdm5hVrIw
tnoutdoors9 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjl2HftYkmI
handguns mag https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/federal-syntech-defense-ammo/370339
guns america digest https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/federal-syntech-defense-ammo-testing/
gun digest https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/syntech-defense-put-a-twist-on-the-hollow-point

One of my absolute life rules is: don't beta test ammo.

[perlslacker]

BTW, What I am getting from this forum so far is a lot of resistance to anything outside the norm which makes me think that the ammo in question is probably the right choice for me. :-)

The reason that people here are resistant to any ammunition outside the norm is that ammunition outside the norm is almost always bad. The "parts of it break away for better wounding!" gimmick has been done over and over again, and people who study terminal ballistics for a living have found that they don't work as advertised. And by "for a living" I mean "under controlled laboratory conditions with properly-calibrated and vetted organic gel," not "some dingus with a Youtube channel and Clear Ballistics gel."

I get the urge to be contrarian and Do Your Own Thing, but this ammo, in Federal's own test data, doesn't perform as well as other options that cost about the same.

[trispeed]

The reason that people here are resistant to any ammunition outside the norm is that ammunition outside the norm is almost always bad. The "parts of it break away for better wounding!" gimmick has been done over and over again, and people who study terminal ballistics for a living have found that they don't work as advertised. And by "for a living" I mean "under controlled laboratory conditions with properly-calibrated and vetted organic gel," not "some dingus with a Youtube channel and Clear Ballistics gel."

I get the urge to be contrarian and Do Your Own Thing, but this ammo, in Federal's own test data, doesn't perform as well as other options that cost about the same.

all well and good though you may have missed the "under controlled laboratory conditions with properly-calibrated and vetted organic gel" tests in some of the videos I posted the links to. Cheers!

[trispeed]

One of my absolute life rules is: don't beta test ammo.

absolutely a valid point, this stuff has been around for 3 years now and am looking for real world data but doesn't seem to be any I can find; I thought it was an interesting load, quite different from the other fragmenting loads out there in that the consistent results in various media being a sharp edged base penetrating 16- 18" and 3 petals 6 to 8" in a conical pattern off the primary wound track. Short barrel, long barrel, still the same. I wish I could get Paul Harrell to try them on the "meat target" :-) Maybe I'll inquire though I know he doesn't even like HST and such as his results seem to indicate little to no difference in his form of testing.

[trispeed]

[QUOTE=RJ;1451453]Huh. Target Sports USA has it at buck fifty a round. From the blurb:

I just bought some at $32 for a boxes of 50.

The ad blurbs are meaningless, of course. The actual results in various test media are consistently as advertised as shown in all the video links I posted for the syntech defense, though.

[trispeed]

I think that your criticism has some merit.

Is 9mm really the best caliber or is that a cost / training standard / political compromise?

10mm, 357 Sig and 357 Magnum may be better choices for you and me!

But the flip side is… HST does have a pretty damn good track record in 9mm and barring a lot of personal hunting or self defense data, this Federal load is an unknown.

I’d suggest going hog hunting or deer hunting with this ammo and see for yourself if it does what you want it to do.

Most people here would take known real life data over theoretical, untested on the street data. YMMV.

I'm not a hunter so testing this for my intended purpose of self defense is obviously a non- starter and this is not hunting or LE ammo; it's a self defense load for civilians :-) I guess I'm surprised people are not more curious and just dismiss things out- of- hand. Curiosity is what leads to better things and along that path there will be plenty of evidence supporting the status quo but dismissing everything new or different without investigation only results in complete stagnation. Cheers!

[the Schwartz]

I'm not a hunter so testing this for my intended purpose of self defense is obviously a non- starter and this is not hunting or LE ammo; it's a self defense load for civilians :-) I guess I'm surprised people are not more curious and just dismiss things out- of- hand. Curiosity is what leads to better things and along that path there will be plenty of evidence supporting the status quo but dismissing everything new or different without investigation only results in complete stagnation. Cheers!

No one (in this thread) is dismissing the design out-of-hand. The P-F members who've expressed doubt in Federal's iteration of the design are rightfully critical of its terminal ballistic performance due to its lengthy and questionable T&E history―one that predates the 3-year existence of Federal's iteration of the load.

Repeating the same error, in this case, duplicating an inadequate projectile design (while expecting a different result) also leads to stagnation of the worst kind. Nothing that you have provided so far suggests that the inadequate terminal ballistic performance offered by this design has been resolved qualitatively or quantitatively.

[the Schwartz]

absolutely a valid point, this stuff has been around for 3 years now and am looking for real world data but doesn't seem to be any I can find; I thought it was an interesting load, quite different from the other fragmenting loads out there in that the consistent results in various media being a sharp edged base penetrating 16- 18" and 3 petals 6 to 8" in a conical pattern off the primary wound track. Short barrel, long barrel, still the same. I wish I could get Paul Harrell to try them on the "meat target" :-) Maybe I'll inquire though I know he doesn't even like HST and such as his results seem to indicate little to no difference in his form of testing.

Mr. Harrell's testing, which relies upon test mediums that have never been validated by research against mammalian soft tissues, offers nothing conclusive or of use to the professional research community or to law enforcement agencies seeking to evaluate the terminal ballistic performance of ammunition for issue to their personnel.

ETA: I would kindly suggest that it might be time for a little more ''due diligence'' prior to further insistence.

[358156hp]

One of my absolute life rules is: don't beta test ammo.

I am sooo stealing this line.

[trispeed]

Mr. Harrell's testing, which relies upon test mediums that have never been validated by research against mammalian soft tissues, offers nothing conclusive or of use to the professional research community or to law enforcement agencies seeking to evaluate the terminal ballistic performance of ammunition for issue to their personnel.

ETA: I would kindly suggest that it might be time for a little more ''due diligence'' prior to further insistence.

I have zero interest in military or LE concerns as I am a member of neither. That said, I certainly digest all the relevant information gleaned from their testing. Due diligence has be exercised. You guys are starting to sound a lot like the 'experts' on music tech forums (a topic where I am a world- renowned actual expert) where everything is about lab 'specs' and testing, while valuable, they exclude real life experience and everything outside their own narrow 'accepted' norms. You win, I quit. Best of luck to you all.

[358156hp]

all well and good though you may have missed the "under controlled laboratory conditions with properly-calibrated and vetted organic gel" tests in some of the videos I posted the links to. Cheers!

Four out of the five videos are from companies that sell advertising to the manufacturer. One is from the manufacturer themself, and tnoutdoors clearly shows only 6 inches of penetration from the petals, and shows the short wadcutter shaped "stump" exiting the Clear Ballistics gel. In the voice over at the end it is also stated that he does not see this ammo meeting law-enforcement performance criteria.

[MickAK]

I have zero interest in military or LE concerns as I am a member of neither.

Me either. They shoot a whole lot more people than I do though, so I tend to pay attention to what they do.

If you're going to talk about real world experience as opposed to laboratory testing you should probably listen to those that have it.

People are dismissive because your choice of ammunition affecting whether you win or lose is a very unlikely scenario and the last thing you should be worried about after a long, long list of other things. It's good advice and you should take it. They're trying to help, not trying to be rude.

[WDR]

The reason there is little or no "real world evidence" out there for this load is a clue. It's unsuitable for the postulated application. That's why. No one uses it.

I've used segmented .22 rimfire ammo on varmints, and its somewhat effective for that application, but I'd never consider it for a 9mm handgun used for defensive purposes.

[PNWTO]

Edit to remove snark as some individuals may have to use their critical evaluation skills.





People are dismissive because your choice of ammunition affecting whether you win or lose is a very unlikely scenario and the last thing you should be worried about after a long, long list of other things.

Amen! The obstinance and voluntary myopia around ammo has never made sense to me. It really doesn’t matter in the bigger picture.

(Typed with a five-shot full of WCs and two strips of 158gr FMJ.)

[JCN]

Curiosity is what leads to better things and along that path there will be plenty of evidence supporting the status quo but dismissing everything new or different without investigation only results in complete stagnation. Cheers!

If you stick around here a little longer, you’ll see that I’m actually probably the least likely here to go along with status quo without questioning.

But curiosity, while leading to better things… can also lead to shit, no?

The issue that I have with this new ammo is: how are you going to get enough real world shooting data from a nonexistent civilian database to come up with statistically significant results?

How many civilian shootings do you think this ammo has been in worldwide?

You’re a self professed intermediate shooter.

I’m not saying this ammo isn’t awesome. I’m saying you don’t know if it is in real world shootings or if there are unintended consequences. HCM tells a story of a real world 357 Sig shooting where the bullet overpenetrated and killed an innocent behind the bad guy. What will this boutique ammo do?

We don’t know. And most of us don’t want to be the test case.

Shooting skill and situational awareness will matter 100x more than the actual ammunition you (probably never) use.

You’re not making a very good impression here, I’m afraid. You you want to hear the answer you want to hear, but you don’t know enough to know what you need to know.




I have zero interest in military or LE concerns as I am a member of neither. That said, I certainly digest all the relevant information gleaned from their testing. Due diligence has be exercised. You guys are starting to sound a lot like the 'experts' on music tech forums (a topic where I am a world- renowned actual expert) where everything is about lab 'specs' and testing, while valuable, they exclude real life experience and everything outside their own narrow 'accepted' norms. You win, I quit. Best of luck to you all.

But this is the flip side. You’re the ‘expert’ and you’re questioning the people who are actual world experts who study databases of actual shootings and write books on ballistics. Get the irony?


Me either. They shoot a whole lot more people than I do though, so I tend to pay attention to what they do.

If you're going to talk about real world experience as opposed to laboratory testing you should probably listen to those that have it.

People are dismissive because your choice of ammunition affecting whether you win or lose is a very unlikely scenario and the last thing you should be worried about after a long, long list of other things. It's good advice and you should take it. They're trying to help, not trying to be rude.

This x 100

[JCN]

trispeed here is some context:

In a self defense pistol use creating a larger shallow wound doesn’t change the immediate outcome.

“Timers and switches.” The small petals will poke small holes and elastic vessels will almost self-seal around it.

Have you ever shot a piece of rubber? The hole is very small compared to the caliber of the bullet passing through it.

So having small pieces shallow… isn’t likely to change the immediate outcome of the gunfight.

And could lead to pieces exiting the side of a body and hitting someone else.

For a pistol, I want my rounds to stay together in a ball so I have more control where they go and stay.

Overpenetration can be a bad thing.

Shot placement to hit CNS is a “switch” while a body hit is a “timer.”

Behind bony protection, the small petals won’t have much of a improvement in switch hitting.

At the cost of a smaller primary projectile.

One of the tenets of real life shooting is that it’s complicated and the more variables you have, the less control you have.

If you’re looking for larger wound, use a rifle or a shotgun.

If you’re looking to get that out of a handgun, step up to a larger caliber.

Gel tests were designed… in the context of real world performance and were validated with real world performance. They’re not meant as standalone tests.

[Velo Dog]

It won't blow the lung out of the body,
but the Federal Syntech Defense 9mm should perform at least as well as most 380 ACP and 38 Special ammo.

The penetration of the lighter fragments would likely be significantly reduced by ribs and/or an intervening arm.

The base travels nose first to 16 inches in organic gel.
That is deeper penetration than many hollow-points and mimics midrange wadcutter performance.

It would probably be acceptable ammo in scenarios where heavy bone, glass or steel are not encountered.

The ability to effectively deal with common hard barriers is a major benefit 9x19mm has over less powerful cartridges.
What would anyone gain by giving up that potential advantage through their ammo selection?

[HCM]

yessir, just signed up and had a question. I would not consider what law enforcement or the military uses to necessarily be of much import, as they are limited in most cases by admin./ cost/ political elements that we don't need to succumb to.)

Your premise is flawed, that is not his that works with most LE agencies in the US.

[Hambo]

Best of luck to you all.

Same to you if you decide to be Federal's test pilot.

[ccmdfd]

Eli Dickens stopped an active shooter with Blazer Brass ball ammo.....

Learned something new today.
Thanks