Browning Hi Power or Springfield SA-35?

[fpnunes]

Now that the SA-35 seems to be coming back out in greater numbers I've started to think about grabbing one assuming I would be able to purchase a recent production model. The prices are good and the guns seem to be pretty well made outside of the early FTE issues. Unsurprisingly, I've also started looking at Hi Powers again as there seem to be more up for sale lately and the prices are manageable.

For those of you that may have recently faced with the same dilemma, which did you get? Is a 25-30 year old FN Hi Power worth another $500 over the Springfield? This would be another range toy and not an EDC or collector's pistol though I may want to send it out for some custom care (stippling, sights, dehorning, ambi).

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts and/or insights?

Cheers!

[Joe in PNG]

For just a range toy, a Tias would probably be fine.

[Trooper224]

For just a range toy, a Tias would probably be fine.

This. The later HPs really weren't anything to write home about. Plus, I suspect the SA has more in common with the Tisas than Springfield will ever admit to. I've owned several examples of the original and I've handled the SA and the Tisas. I'd go for the latter.

[CSW]

EAA is offering a Turk Girsan HP for the $600 range, which I've read good reviews.

They are offering a railed version, and an optics ready.

https://eaacorp.com/product-category/handguns/

[JonInWA]

I'd recommend spending some time on the BH Spring Solutions website; they've got some very in-depth analysis videos of the guns concerned, which should help you make an informed decision on what is best for you, and what work would be recommended to be put into whichever one you select.

Best, Jon

[Stephanie B]

For just a range toy, a Tias would probably be fine.

Here's a side-by-each comparison (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/tisas-br9-vs-brownings-hi-power/) between a BHP and a Tisas.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I was lucky to find a beautifully blued LNIB late model MKIII at my local gun pusher for about $650, just a few months before Browning discontinued them. With that in mind, I wouldn't pay $500 more for one over the SA-35, particularly if it had the spray/baked on finish.



EAA is offering a Turk Girsan HP for the $600 range, which I've read good reviews.

They are offering a railed version, and an optics ready.

https://eaacorp.com/product-category/handguns/

Particularly for a range toy, I'd look at one of the Girsan models. Personally, I'd like to play with the Match version instead of the OPS, as I am intrigued by the beavertail and flaired-frontstrap/magwell treatment, but don't have much interest in the rail.

https://eaacorp.com/product/girsan-mc-p35-match-ops/

Tiger McGee has been playing with the stubby PI version, and has a few write-ups in the Tactical Wire.

https://eaacorp.com/product/girsan-mc-p35-pi/

[MK11]

Girsan is doing interesting things with the Hi-Power, more so than Springfield or even FN, IMO.

[JonInWA]

Here's a side-by-each comparison (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/tisas-br9-vs-brownings-hi-power/) between a BHP and a Tisas.

Here's some sequential far more thorough and detailed reviews of the Tisas:

https://bhspringsolutions.com/index.php/tisas-regent-br9-critical-review-of-the-tisas-regent-br9-hp-hi-power/?doing_wp_cron=1675872113.4038319587707519531250

https://bhspringsolutions.com/index.php/tisas-regent-br9-6000-round-tisas-regent-br9-hi-power-test/?doing_wp_cron=1675872218.9129390716552734375000

https://bhspringsolutions.com/index.php/tisas-regent-br9-bhspringsolutions-6000-round-tisas-test-update/

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

And regarding the Springfield SA:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plKwpL_YPwYE80NGQgNqVBTcrchPDWZl/view

And the Girsan:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tF_5LzZXja_xp68Tk0Ao4uXJ7FGapeOg/view

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

And regarding the Springfield SA 35:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plKwpL_YPwYE80NGQgNqVBTcrchPDWZl/view

And the Girsan:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tF_5LzZXja_xp68Tk0Ao4uXJ7FGapeOg/view

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

And the recommended minimum for any previously owned FN/Browning High Power acquired:

https://bhspringsolutions.com/index.php/5-years-or-5000-rounds/?doing_wp_cron=1675873058.3111839294433593750000

Best, Jon

[Evil_Ed]

Honestly?

If I were just now deciding to get on the bandwagon of a ~90 year old gun? I wouldn't. (As a 1911 fan it pains me to say that...also as someone with a handful of WWII and post-war BHPs, including a Novak custom...)

I'd go for the new Hi-Power made by FN before I'd consider any of the knock offs or the even any of the original versions of the BHP, due to all of the known deficiencies in the design, and all of the random weird issues the knockoffs are sure to have as they're reverse engineered copies vs being made from the TDP/blueprints from FN.

The new FN fixes a lot of long-standing gripes with the platforms, updates it a bit for the 21st century and keeps most of the original's lines. In fact about the only deficiency they haven't addressed yet is mounting optics...which is hopefully coming soon as an updated rev to their new line. Well, ok, and mounting a light, too.

True - it won't accept previous iteration grips or mags. It still doesn't seem to come with a light rail (please, FN? Eventually?) But if you want %90 of the original with %100 updated ergos, modern manufacturing, bigger mag capacity and a less finicky disassembly...the new FN is the way to fly, IMO.

[JonInWA]

Many of the deficiencies inherent to the High Power in its original guise have been, or can be addressed. Probably the most serious is the square magwell profile, making speed reloads somewhat problematic. But there are at least two aftermarket options out there which can successfully address this.

The new FN offering is too new for me to unreservedly jump on its bandwagon. I do not think its very price competitive, which is a disincentive for me to dabble in what's essentially an unproven gun. And FN has picked up a reputation for orphaning and essentially abandoning their pistol platforms in relatively short order.

From what I've seen, I believe that this new FN High Power is a springboard for a polymer-frame variant, which should be less expensive and with more options. The new one as it is is too dissimilar to the classic one to be a huge temptation to older High Power owners, and too expensive (and also likely too heavy) for those shopping for a new defensive pistol.

It's probably an excellent pistol. But it's an at this time an unproven one, and, at its price, I'll happily let others be the beta testers. And wait for future platform developments.

I'm sticking with my Mk III .40 High Power (with significant BH SS upgrades and improvements) for the time being.

Best, Jon

[CSW]

How does the 40 cal. shoot in the HP platform?
Any issues? Always been intrigued by the HP in 40.

[JonInWA]

I've had three, and they all shot/shoot well. Here's the long-running thread where I detail out the ongoing journey with my current one: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39835-The-FN-Browning-High-Power-Revisited-Part-One

I'll be using mine in our upcoming IDPA Regional Match in April.

Best, Jon

[fpnunes]

Like many of us here, I have a safe full of modern 9mms to scratch just about any itch and I really have no inclination to explore the new FN. What I envision is a Novak Hi Power with Spegel grips. I just wonder if it is worth spending a $2k on a thirty year old pistol versus coming close with the Springer? One difference being that Novak's won't fit their rear sight on the Springer.

I'll have to read through the BHspringsolutions web page and read the reviews. Ironically, I just received a spare factory ambi from them in anticipation of this project in case I buy the SA-35.

Thanks for all the great info and recommendations!

[Tokarev]

I have no experience with the Girsan guns but I do with the Tisas. My sample's frame cracked after not very many rounds and no hard use with +P or etc. Granted the importer replaced it without complaint but the experience left me a bit gun shy.

Rumor is the SA-35 is a Tisas with final fit and finish done in the States. This is quite possibly true especially considering the slide sight dovetails appear to be the same between the T and the SA. Another option is only the slide is sourced from Turkey. It is also possible that none of the parts are Turkish but then why the Turkish sight cuts?

In any case, I do very much like the look of the Springfield. The program manager has done a nice job of keeping a classic look and adding a bit of modern flare. My hope is that these guns will play out to be essentially an equivalent of the Milspec 1911s. A decent range toy as-is but probably best when used as a basis for a custom build.

I do have an SA-35 but it has fallen off my radar for a couple reasons. A big one being the passing of our friend Karl Sokol. My plan was (still is) to shoot the gun a bit to get a good idea of what might need gunsmith attention and then send it off for work. Now that Karl is gone I'll probably send it to MK3 or maybe Don Williams.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Suvorov]

As someone with a couple Brownings, I've always fantasized about getting serious with the platform and maybe even sending on in for special treatment. The one issue that keeps coming up in my fantasies is the disabling of the magazine safety and what possible consequences it might have in a court room. For that reason my fantasy keeps having me look towards Springfield. Whatever the issues with Springfield, they have been around all of my life and I suspect they will still be strong when I get too feeble to shoot. The various Turkish imports I have less faith in despite the "fact" they may use the same forgings as the SFI guns.

While I can definitely see Evil_Ed's reasoning, I don't have much faith in FN supporting this pistol 10 years down the line. As an owner of a super rare FN handgun which I just had to custom make a sear spring for, I wouldn't want to be holding the bag if/when those zany Belgians decide to put another great gun to pasture.

[Evil_Ed]

"Super rare FN handgun" probably won't apply to what FN seems to be trying to position as a service weapon that they're going to make a ton of...you could make the same argument for all kinds of one-off factory Berettas with comps and etc. The base model M9/92F is still out there in numbers, but the one-offs with unique parts are a little more difficult to repair.

Besides, they're not SIG :)

We'll see if FN drops this or not in a few years; hopefully not. When the current set of projects are completed, I'm going to be poking at my LGS and seeing if they can order me a new FN through one of their distributors..

[Suvorov]

"Super rare FN handgun" probably won't apply to what FN seems to be trying to position as a service weapon that they're going to make a ton of...you could make the same argument for all kinds of one-off factory Berettas with comps and etc. The base model M9/92F is still out there in numbers, but the one-offs with unique parts are a little more difficult to repair.

Besides, they're not SIG :)

We'll see if FN drops this or not in a few years; hopefully not. When the current set of projects are completed, I'm going to be poking at my LGS and seeing if they can order me a new FN through one of their distributors..

Hope you are right as it really does seem like a nice pistol. To add context the “super rare” FN I was talking about was the pistol that FN developed to compete with the P226 and Beretta 92 and all the other wonder nines of the 1980s and 1990s. It too was supposed to be their next generation platform and carry them into the 21st century.

[Guerrero]

Ah, this takes me back; Papa Guerrero taught me to shoot pistols with a 1960's era BHP (which was the gun he bought when he turned 21) and a box of NATO-surplus 9mm (that stuff was a little stout).

[Chuck Whitlock]

As someone with a couple Brownings, I've always fantasized about getting serious with the platform and maybe even sending on in for special treatment. The one issue that keeps coming up in my fantasies is the disabling of the magazine safety and what possible consequences it might have in a court room. For that reason my fantasy keeps having me look towards Springfield.

I had the factory mouse-trap magazines NP3'd and left the magazine disconnect alone. I'm probably not good enough of a shooter to realize any benefit of removing it. I like a little heavier street trigger.



While I can definitely see Evil_Ed's reasoning, I don't have much faith in FN supporting this pistol 10 years down the line. As an owner of a super rare FN handgun which I just had to custom make a sear spring for, I wouldn't want to be holding the bag if/when those zany Belgians decide to put another great gun to pasture.

I understand, and actually share, your trepidation. The really f*cked up thing? It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone takes a wait-and-see attitude, hence sales aren't what they expected them to be, hence FN gets a crappy return on their investment, hence off it goes to the rubbish pile. Maybe if the curious went out and bought them, the sales figures would drive production, as well as aftermarket support.

I wish I had enough extra funds to really put my money where my mouth is, alas.

[Suvorov]

I had the factory mouse-trap magazines NP3'd and left the magazine disconnect alone. I'm probably not good enough of a shooter to realize any benefit of removing it. I like a little heavier street trigger.
……….
I wish I had enough extra funds to really put my money where my mouth is, alas.

Can’t argue with a single point you make - especially the last! ;)

[fpnunes]

So I decided to buy the Browning as they aren't making the classic MKIII model any longer and the clones should be around for quite some time. As soon as it comes in, off to Novak's it will go. I wish Karl was still with us as well. I miss talking with him.

I have a number of superb grips and need a pistol for each grip set (1911 grip sickness always extends to BHPs as well :D) so more purchases are already in the back of my mind.

I'll follow up with pics and a range report when the project is done. Thanks for all the input and the PMs.

[Timbonez]

So I decided to buy the Browning as they aren't making the classic MKIII model any longer and the clones should be around for quite some time. As soon as it comes in, off to Novak's it will go. I wish Karl was still with us as well. I miss talking with him.

I have a number of superb grips and need a pistol for each grip set (1911 grip sickness always extends to BHPs as well :D) so more purchases are already in the back of my mind.

I'll follow up with pics and a range report when the project is done. Thanks for all the input and the PMs.

Thread revival. Any updates?

I’ve got a couple BHPs (Mk III and Mk II) as well as an SA-35. I got both the Mk III and Mk II back in 2010. There was also another Mk II that I acquired in 2010, but I sold that a year or so ago. The Mk III was sent very shortly after I purchased it to Novak’s for some very minor work: trigger, sear, hammer, sights, bluing. The mag disconnect is still in place on that one (it’s got to go though), but I’ve shot the Mk III the most. I sent the Mk II off to MK3 firearms to basically clone Garand Thumb’s BHP that they did for him. I got it back with some changes that we agreed to make, and it is configured as depicted in the pictures with the RMR.
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Video is of me running the Mk III under NODs. There is no frame of reference with irons only under night vision, so I had a blurry mess of a gun in front of me. I was able to run up to the targets and essentially shoot them point blank except for the last paper target and the steel. I needed to make 3 hits on steel, and after that first miss I felt like I was shooting high so I adjusted and was able to get the 3 hits right after.


https://youtube.com/shorts/HBqCRDxOUvo?si=z-yHkY_LkJujKMKd


Last pic is a friend’s SA-35 with Apex Tactical hammer, sear, sear lever, trigger, and magwell that I installed for him. He sent the slide off to Vulcan Machine Werks for the optic cut. I’m trying to decide if I want to do the same with my SA-35. I’d do all the Apex Tactical stuff and then see if Nighthawk Custom could cut the slide for their IOS system and then smoke nitride the gun. My SA-35 is currently unfired until I decide to try and sell or do the aforementioned work.
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[theJanitor]

Holy cow that RMR'd HP is awesome

[Timbonez]

I love it. The BHP ranks in my top 3 favorite handguns. I’m just glad there are places still around to help bring it into the modern era.

[Tokarev]

I love it. The BHP ranks in my top 3 favorite handguns. I’m just glad there are places still around to help bring it into the modern era.Did I miss what plate system MK3 cut the gun for? Is that the Springfield AOS?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[Timbonez]

I didn’t say in my post, but yes, it’s the AOS used on Springfield Prodigy pistols.

[Timbonez]

MK3’s video on my pistol:


https://youtu.be/cAX-Dag1_JA?si=sJ7cf70EE6Ko4oSq

[Notorious E.O.C.]

What was your lead time with MK3? They've had one of my alloy HPs since last August...

[Timbonez]

It really depends on the amount of work you’re having done. I had a significant amount of work done to my pistol. Also, the not so good experience I had with MK3 was that they forgot about my pistol for a period of time. That was very frustrating and was eventually “addressed.” All that said, a year+ is pretty standard from what I’ve seen.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Thread revival. Any updates?

I’ve got a couple BHPs (Mk III and Mk II) as well as an SA-35. I got both the Mk III and Mk II back in 2010. There was also another Mk II that I acquired in 2010, but I sold that a year or so ago. The Mk III was sent very shortly after I purchased it to Novak’s for some very minor work: trigger, sear, hammer, sights, bluing. The mag disconnect is still in place on that one (it’s got to go though), but I’ve shot the Mk III the most. I sent the Mk II off to MK3 firearms to basically clone Garand Thumb’s BHP that they did for him. I got it back with some changes that we agreed to make, and it is configured as depicted in the pictures with the RMR.
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Video is of me running the Mk III under NODs. There is no frame of reference with irons only under night vision, so I had a blurry mess of a gun in front of me. I was able to run up to the targets and essentially shoot them point blank except for the last paper target and the steel. I needed to make 3 hits on steel, and after that first miss I felt like I was shooting high so I adjusted and was able to get the 3 hits right after.


https://youtube.com/shorts/HBqCRDxOUvo?si=z-yHkY_LkJujKMKd


Last pic is a friend’s SA-35 with Apex Tactical hammer, sear, sear lever, trigger, and magwell that I installed for him. He sent the slide off to Vulcan Machine Werks for the optic cut. I’m trying to decide if I want to do the same with my SA-35. I’d do all the Apex Tactical stuff and then see if Nighthawk Custom could cut the slide for their IOS system and then smoke nitride the gun. My SA-35 is currently unfired until I decide to try and sell or do the aforementioned work.
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Timbonez:

Those are some very nice Hi Powers. I have a technical question for you and other HP fans. Is it possible to direct mill a MK III pattern Hi Power for a mini red dot sight? Why I ask, Novak's uses a different type of rear sight mount on MK IIIs as opposed to MK IIs. While the MK IIIs have the firing pin safety, the portion of the sear lever (thin bar in the Hi Power slide) that has the safety paddle/interlock on it actually locks the firing pin from beneath the firing pin itself. There is no spring driven plunger like Series 80 Colt 1911s. The Hi Powers pictured in your thread with mini red dot sights all appear to be MK IIs or MK II pattern guns.

I tend to prefer the MK III because of the cast receiver being stronger/more durable.

I'd be interested in your take on this. Thanks in advance!

Bruce

[Timbonez]

Yes and no. The Mk III can be cut for an optic, but a type 1 sear lever will have to be used negating the use of the firing pin block on Mk III BHPs. My Mk II Hi-Power is a 1989 vintage and used the same sear lever with the paddle and FPB as the Mk III models. It now has a type 1 sear lever from BH Spring Solutions and no FPB in order to accommodate the dot on top. The gun functions the same. This is all assuming you're using a plate system like on my Mk II. I'm not sure if you'd be able to keep the stock sear lever and FPB if you were to direct mill the slide for your chosen dot.

[Timbonez]

The BHP Mk II at a local match today. Anytime there is a 5th Sunday of the month, this place runs a “Run What You Brung” match. Sometimes M1 Garands, full auto MP5s, and the like make it out. Scoring was time plus for this match.


https://youtube.com/shorts/WfuPGgcNj74?si=aDGziJNWTLGbMHub

[Bruce Cartwright]

Yes and no. The Mk III can be cut for an optic, but a type 1 sear lever will have to be used negating the use of the firing pin block on Mk III BHPs. My Mk II Hi-Power is a 1989 vintage and used the same sear lever with the paddle and FPB as the Mk III models. It now has a type 1 sear lever from BH Spring Solutions and no FPB in order to accommodate the dot on top. The gun functions the same. This is all assuming you're using a plate system like on my Mk II. I'm not sure if you'd be able to keep the stock sear lever and FPB if you were to direct mill the slide for your chosen dot.

Timbonez:

Thanks for helping me with that.

Bruce

[theJanitor]

I tend to prefer the MK III because of the cast receiver being stronger/more durable.

Bruce

Are you guys running +P in your HP's? I'm running standard pressure gold dots in mine, primarily to keep an irreplaceable (to me) pistol from wearing prematurely

[Timbonez]

Standard pressure, but I don’t run +P in any of my guns. Not for fear of breaking the gun, though.

[NIU2009]

Are you guys running +P in your HP's? I'm running standard pressure gold dots in mine, primarily to keep an irreplaceable (to me) pistol from wearing prematurely

Standard, even though my HPs are some of the few guns I put in extra power recoil springs. My personal opinion is the factory spring weight is just a little too light. More often the opposite is true.


Standard pressure, but I don’t run +P in any of my guns. Not for fear of breaking the gun, though.

Same. I only shoot 147gr standard pressure. I think it’s the best overall weight for practice and defense.

[Stephanie B]

Standard pressure, but I don’t run +P in any of my guns. Not for fear of breaking the gun, though.

Isn't 9mm NATO a bit more oomphy than 9mm Luger? My Mk.III is stamped for the NATO round.

[Timbonez]

Isn't 9mm NATO a bit more oomphy than 9mm Luger? My Mk.III is stamped for the NATO round.

9mm NATO is typically 124gr FMJ and made to a certain spec. It would be considered +P, but not all 124gr is NATO/+P. The M1152 ammo that accompanied the SIG M17/M18 is most certainly +P as well. I'm fully confident that the BHP can handle +P without issue, but it does accelerate wear on any firearm. Some diligent replacement of springs will help mitigate that. Since you have a Mk III, which has the purportedly stronger frame, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

I do have some AAC 124gr FMJ, which is loaded to NATO spec, but I typically use it in other 9mms that I shoot (1911/2011). So I guess I actually own and have shot +P through my BHPs but with so little frequency that I'm not concerned. While I thoroughly enjoy my BHPs, I don't really shoot them all that often.

The late Stephen Camp has some great articles on the subject...
https://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHPandHighPressureAmmo.htm

[Bruce Cartwright]

Are you guys running +P in your HP's? I'm running standard pressure gold dots in mine, primarily to keep an irreplaceable (to me) pistol from wearing prematurely

Janitor:

For training ammo, I typically run 115 grain bullets at 1,150 feet per second or thereabouts. For carry, I run +P Gold Dots.

Bruce

[fpnunes]

Thread revival. Any updates?

I did send the MKIII to Mike at Novak's and he did a superb job. Mag disconnect was removed and I had him do the works save for the stippling which was an error on my part when I sent in the wish list. Gun is better than I could have hoped and he even corrected the mag well butcher job the previous owner did himself. I swear it looks like it was machine cut. The work was super reasonable considering everything I had done and was returned in 4 weeks which blew my mind. I figured it would be away for 3-4 months minimum.

I was so happy in fact that I sent a Colt Lightweight Commander for the same treatment and I am please as punch with the project as well.

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