View Full Version : Military Suicides and Private Gun Ownership...
BaiHu
10-08-2012, 10:08 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/08/us/with-military-suicides-rising-new-policies-take-shape.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
I think there needs to be help for returning soldiers to re-acclimate to civilian life, but what does the 'gun' have to do with suicide other than method? BTW, this is not sarcasm, this is an interesting and timely issue that needs to be addressed, but how?
but how?
1) Operational tempo.
2) Leaders not being dicks and unnecessarily ruining peoples' lives. When someone is already having marriage troubles because you're making them work 70 hours a week in what is suppose to be their "down time" after a deployment, it's probably a bad idea to recall everyone at 5pm on Valentines day to clean humvees until 10 at night that were another units responsibility anyway. Granted, some of this comes from the op tempo, but it's probably worse that a lot of guys get treated like complete and absolute shit. There's a plethora of horrible leaders out there that are more focused on themselves and pleasing their boss instead of doing what a leader is suppose to: run interference for their guys, and make them succeed through their own virtues. Some d-bag reads a book about how some cruel general won a war by using fear to motivate his troops, and all the sudden they take that as PME on how they should run their people. It's amazing what happens when you treat people like professionals instead of treating them like completely inept cannon fodder.
3) The military is overrun with a "leadership by powerpoint" mentality and doctrine right now, and is entrenched in centralized command and micromanagement as opposed to a decentralized command. Look at that article......their solution to suicide is powerpoint briefings on the dangers of suicide. Wow. They're really smart policy makers.......
Odin Bravo One
10-08-2012, 09:20 PM
We promote to the highest level of incompetence.
Yes, it does need to be addressed. But as always, it's not the guns that are the problem, it is the mental health that is the issue. Only dude I have known in the service who offed himself did it with a web belt from the top bunk of his rack. Guys with mental health conditions who have deteriorated so far that suicide has become an option, need immediate professional and friend/family intervention. Without it, they will find a way to meet their objective, guns or not.
That ain't no way for a soldier to die.
Wendell
10-08-2012, 10:52 PM
the military has begun taking small steps to encourage gun safety, including giving away trigger locks at a recent Pentagon health fair. “You’ve got to realize the cultural change when trigger locks are given out in the Pentagon,” said Bruce Shahbaz, an Army suicide prevention expert. “That’s huge.”
<http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/08/us/with-military-suicides-rising-new-policies-take-shape.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all>
"Huge", huh?
No mention of any effect on the suicide rate, just "huge."
Kyle Reese
10-08-2012, 10:56 PM
1) Operational tempo.
2) Leaders not being dicks and unnecessarily ruining peoples' lives. When someone is already having marriage troubles because you're making them work 70 hours a week in what is suppose to be their "down time" after a deployment, it's probably a bad idea to recall everyone at 5pm on Valentines day to clean humvees until 10 at night that were another units responsibility anyway. Granted, some of this comes from the op tempo, but it's probably worse that a lot of guys get treated like complete and absolute shit. There's a plethora of horrible leaders out there that are more focused on themselves and pleasing their boss instead of doing what a leader is suppose to: run interference for their guys, and make them succeed through their own virtues. Some d-bag reads a book about how some cruel general won a war by using fear to motivate his troops, and all the sudden they take that as PME on how they should run their people. It's amazing what happens when you treat people like professionals instead of treating them like completely inept cannon fodder.
3) The military is overrun with a "leadership by powerpoint" mentality and doctrine right now, and is entrenched in centralized command and micromanagement as opposed to a decentralized command. Look at that article......their solution to suicide is powerpoint briefings on the dangers of suicide. Wow. They're really smart policy makers.......
100% spot on and correct. Not to mention if someone DOES ask for help, there is still a very negative stigma attached to doing so, so they remain silent until it's too late. Again, this can be addressed with good leadership, but often isn't.
Odin Bravo One
10-08-2012, 11:28 PM
For a career super lifer, the negative stuff from seeking mental health assistance is minimal. But the bulk of our all volunteer force does not stay forever. And while it doesn't affect security clearances and the like for the active duty folks, those who get out, and want a job in say LE or EMS, having a PTSD or suicidal diagnosis, even from several years prior will effect the candidates chance of getting hired. It will stick with you forever, just like a Big Chicken Dinner.
We promote to the highest level of incompetence.
HA ha...hahaha.......hahahahah (http://terminallance.com/2012/07/26/terminal-lance-214-meritorious/)!
Yes, it does need to be addressed. But as always, it's not the guns that are the problem, it is the mental health that is the issue. Only dude I have known in the service who offed himself did it with a web belt from the top bunk of his rack. Guys with mental health conditions who have deteriorated so far that suicide has become an option, need immediate professional and friend/family intervention. Without it, they will find a way to meet their objective, guns or not.
Agreed. The suicide in my command was with a handgun, and at least 1 other attempted suicide was also with a handgun. Oh, and in both the handguns were in the BEQ....but barracks are gun free zones to prevent gun problems, so how could that be!? Not sure what was used for the other attempts. But, it's just like crime. To the main stream populace, it's not just "violence." It's "gun violence," as if it's somehow different from regular violence and everyone would be safer if there were no guns.
In the words of Archie Bunker, "Would it make you happier, little girl, if they was to jump from windows instead?"
LittleLebowski
10-09-2012, 06:29 AM
Well, as TGS mentioned; it's not surprising that reducing op-tempo (or maybe making sure to adhere to the rules of "work hard, play" hard) and reducing the time wasting BS games isn't even considered.
BaiHu
10-09-2012, 08:04 AM
It's okay now, they're implementing omega 3 smoothies now:
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Military-studying-if-fish-oil-can-cut-suicide-risk-3927877.php
Not saying that this isn't a potentially helpful preventitive, but I don't think they're enough smoothies to 'smooth' out some of the stressors these men/women shoulder.
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JConn
10-09-2012, 08:09 AM
During our briefing on this someone suggested 18 month deployments as a reason for suicide and the capt giving the briefing shoot him down before anyone could blink.
LittleLebowski
10-09-2012, 08:41 AM
It's okay now, they're implementing omega 3 smoothies now:
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Military-studying-if-fish-oil-can-cut-suicide-risk-3927877.php
Not saying that this isn't a potentially helpful preventitive, but I don't think they're enough smoothies to 'smooth' out some of the stressors these men/women shoulder.
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Omega 3 smoothies and a ship deployment would raise suicide rates. And homicides.
BaiHu
10-09-2012, 08:46 AM
Ouch! And bazinga!
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SGT_Calle
10-09-2012, 12:23 PM
For a career super lifer, the negative stuff from seeking mental health assistance is minimal. But the bulk of our all volunteer force does not stay forever. And while it doesn't affect security clearances and the like for the active duty folks, those who get out, and want a job in say LE or EMS, having a PTSD or suicidal diagnosis, even from several years prior will effect the candidates chance of getting hired. It will stick with you forever, just like a Big Chicken Dinner.
I fear that the government will use these diagnoses as a reason to disqualify huge numbers of veterans from owning weapons. While I imagine it is appropriate in some cases, I believe many veterans are able to cope with their PTSD successfully through various treatments. Just look at how veterans are encouraged to claim PTSD for VA benefits purposes without regard to the implications later in life.
I have been blessed to have served a pretty safe, dull 13+ years as a Soldier. Many are not so lucky.
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Dave J
10-09-2012, 01:43 PM
The cynic in me thinks that one of the contributing factors to the number of military suicides, is that by putting so much emphasis on suicide "prevention", we are constantly, albeit unintentionally, reminding our people that suicide is an available option.
MadMax17
10-09-2012, 03:34 PM
The suicide stand down day we had last month was an utter joke. They spent the entire time talking about seeing warning signs, and looking out for your buddy, but not a single minute on the causes of what is making people want to kill themselves. They're trying to treat a symptom, but ignoring the root cause of the issue, which basically boils down to horrendous leadership above the company level. They see suicide as a disease that is really no one's fault other than the person who tried it. They generally fail to see that if you don't run your soldiers into the ground and treat them like human beings, they will generally have a reduced desire to kill themselves.
But those questions are too hard to ask/answer. So instead they go after the low hanging fruit of CYA, and tell us to look for 'red flags' and leave it at that.
Byron
10-09-2012, 03:54 PM
The cynic in me thinks that one of the contributing factors to the number of military suicides, is that by putting so much emphasis on suicide "prevention", we are constantly, albeit unintentionally, reminding our people that suicide is an available option.
Unfortunately, this is a very common myth; that talking to a person about suicide 'gives them ideas' or helps them realize that 'everyone is thinking about it.' There's no data to support the theory. In fact, just about any suicide prevention FAQ that you will find on the internet specifically addresses the myth. Just two examples, of which many can be found:
http://www.crisiscentre.bc.ca/get-help/frequently-asked-questions-about-suicide/#2
Will talking about suicide to a person make them suicidal?
There is no research evidence that indicates talking to people about suicide, in the context of care, respect, and prevention, increases their risk of suicidal ideation or suicidal behaviours. Research does indicate that talking openly and responsibly about suicide lets a potentially suicidal person know they do not have to be alone, that there are people who want to listen and who want to help. Most people are relieved to finally be able to talk honestly about their feelings, and this alone can reduce the risk of an attempt.
http://www.suicidecallbackservice.org.au/Suicide-Myths.html
Myth: Talking openly about suicide increases the risk.
Fact: It is important not to treat suicide as a taboo subject. Raising the issue sensitively and asking directly about suicide gives the person at risk permission to speak about his or her distress, and demonstrates to the person that you care. Rather than feeling worse, the person at risk could feel relieved if the issue of suicide is raised in a caring and non-judgmental manner. This could prevent action and increase the chances of the person at risk seeking further help.
This same myth seems to carry through a lot of taboo subjects. Take drug use, for example; where some people think that sitting down and having a heart-to-heart talk with a family member (particularly parent-to-child) will somehow open them up to experimenting in a world of drugs to which they were previously ignorant.
I just don't think that anyone in the world ever needs to be reminded that "suicide is an available option." I don't know a single adult who isn't:
1. Aware of their mortality
2. Aware that they could choose to end their life
No one forgets that suicide exists and is suddenly reminded by outreach programs; especially not the people who are actually at risk.
100% spot on and correct. Not to mention if someone DOES ask for help, there is still a very negative stigma attached to doing so, so they remain silent until it's too late. Again, this can be addressed with good leadership, but often isn't.
This is outside of my lane.
But food for thought, dude it took Audie Murphy the most Combat decorated U.S. Soldier of the Second World War and famous Movie Star to admit he struggled with PTSD before it ever got any real attention/respect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy
http://www.georgiaveterans.org/audie_murphy_ptsd.htm
And truthfully, it may have took him being a Movie Star to get the attention to the issue more so than his resume as a Soldier.
Guys just struggle to cope with what they saw/did and how to come back here.
I was talking to a really dear friend of mind about his brother coming back from Afghanistan, he had just got back in June from a Deployment, his brother was coming back. His wife was nervous because, she didn't know what to say or how to act, it was like they were just going to start falling back in love again. The truth is... they'd both learned to be independent again, they've been separated for 6 months.
That added with all the stresses, coming down off of being in a War Environment for that time... It's just really hard to adjust for anyone, period, and I don't care if you don't see anything horrific. Elevated stress levels, separation from comforts, constant anxiety.
I have a another friend who was a Marine who did have PTSD.
They wanted to do electroshock therapy on him. But he had insomnia, paranoia, he told me honestly that at times he thought he was going to go insane.
Here's another shocking statistic, a lot of Veterans are homeless. (ETA: For the Integrity of the post, I'm not going to modify my words, but for the sake of being accurate, I'm going to change "A lot of homeless are Veterans." to the 2nd half of that sentence.)
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/veterans.pdf
I'd imagine it has to do with a lapse into substance abuse and lack of coping.
I know this is going to sound bad, etc and not come across right, but as a Christian, my opinion, Human beings were not designed for a life of Warfare, I think part of it's in our nature to defend ourselves, etc, etc, but... Dude, it's horrible, I don't care how good of an experience you have, it's a horrible thing. Not saying it isn't necessary, it's just a truly terrible thing.
ETA 2: I'll say this, the only place I see as much tension in people as you see in some Veteran's experience is honestly in abusive households. Just dealing with that constant surge of emotions/feeling of anything can happen/on edge/anxiety, that and, from what I've heard (again, heard), long days and short nights, depending where you are, a lot of guys are running 16-18 hour work days and frustrated in their work environment.
ETA 3: I really think when Soldier's get back they should have 2-4 weeks off to just be with their families, or just wind down. (And I know they get leave, and I think that's about what they get, but I had again, dear friend, when he went on leave mid-deployment, he was supposed to have people with him at all times in case he was a threat to himself or others, IIRC, the family had to sign paperwork, etc. I may be mistaken, but I think he had to sign with either an agreement of his leave or what not, either they had to sign or he had to sign.)
Le Français
10-09-2012, 06:21 PM
Unfortunately, this is a very common myth; that talking to a person about suicide 'gives them ideas' or helps them realize that 'everyone is thinking about it.' There's no data to support the theory. In fact, just about any suicide prevention FAQ that you will find on the internet specifically addresses the myth. Just two examples, of which many can be found:
http://www.crisiscentre.bc.ca/get-help/frequently-asked-questions-about-suicide/#2
http://www.suicidecallbackservice.org.au/Suicide-Myths.html
This same myth seems to carry through a lot of taboo subjects. Take drug use, for example; where some people think that sitting down and having a heart-to-heart talk with a family member (particularly parent-to-child) will somehow open them up to experimenting in a world of drugs to which they were previously ignorant.
I just don't think that anyone in the world ever needs to be reminded that "suicide is an available option." I don't know a single adult who isn't:
1. Aware of their mortality
2. Aware that they could choose to end their life
No one forgets that suicide exists and is suddenly reminded by outreach programs; especially not the people who are actually at risk.
The mental health staff at the jail I used to work at made it a point to debunk this myth during our suicide prevention training. Some officers seemed under the impression that asking the suicide-risk questions during the booking process could lead to more suicides. Uhhh...no.
SGT_Calle
10-09-2012, 06:32 PM
Great posts. I have to agree that a lot of our problems, as an Army, are caused by leaders who are dirt bags. They made the early ranks because they checked certain blocks and made higher ranks because their leaders were afraid to give them a "needs some" on an evaluation. (Speaking strictly about NCOs, in my experience)
I spent a few years as an Army recruiter and it was easily the worst experience of my career, almost completely due to leadership. Anyone who knows about recruiting now versus 6 or 7 years ago knows that they HAD to change the way recruiters work because guys were killing themselves.
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As far as stigmas, I couldn't detect much of one during my time in the Marines from 2007-2011. The guys in my workplace with PTSD used to talk openly with us about their treatments and whatnot. This was in the middle of the work-day sitting in the 3-shop, not during some heart-to-heart conversation at a secluded lake during sunset. Accessibility to help, both officially through the system and unofficially through non-military, non-profit organizations on base to specifically help service members, was amply available. Self-medicating is extremely common though.....and it seems to be common through all of the public safety services; self-medicating is very high among EMTs and cops as well. Maybe there's something deeper going on there that warrants investigation.
I wasn't diagnosed with PTSD, TBI, or anything of the likes.....but many months after I EAS'd I still got a "check-up" call from the Wounded Warrior Regiment, where they just asked how everything is going and what issues I might be having in life they could help with. Pretty cool, actually.
Not having PTSD, I honestly think the biggest roadblock to receiving treatment is the service-members' own mental thoughts. When you are looking at your buddies who have to live with burns and whatnot, I imagine it's pretty damn easy to second-guess the legitimacy of your issues.....especially when you're dealing with the average personality a grunt has.
Also, another point I've noticed is a lot of the PTSD publicity (http://terminallance.com/2012/01/23/terminal-lance-174-breaking-news/) is not appreciated by service members, increased support networks be damned. The fact that some employers are not hiring vets because they think every single vet is obviously suffering from PTSD and about to massacre babies and burn the company building is a very real dynamic which a lot of my buddies across the branches are not appreciating right now.
And before I forget, I think it's important to remember that not all suicides are PTSD or combat related. Sometimes, military lifestyle can just really suck as I tried to touch on in my first post. A regular job can ruin your day.....the military can ruin your life, if for whatever reason (legitimate or not), you find yourself on the wrong end of the system.
Omega 3 smoothies and a ship deployment would raise suicide rates. And homicides.
And pregnancies. Illegitimate or not.
So, I guess we've still accomplished the end-state of the usual safety brief: Do not add or subtract from the population. :cool:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________
All in all, this thread seems to be pretty good given the bleak topic. I'm going to send a link of this thread to a friend of mine who's an epidemiologist. Specifically, she works on suicides in the military and even gave a multi-national briefing on such in Israel a few weeks ago. I'll see if she has anything to add.
SGT_Calle
10-09-2012, 06:41 PM
Also, not to detract even more from the gun owner emphasis of this thread, I was reminded of a story from 2010 because it mentions my chosen career field.
http://nation.time.com/2010/10/05/which-military-jobs-are-most-prone-to-suicide/
I think it is safe to say that #9 and #1 make the list because of the very small population of said jobs.
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BaiHu
10-24-2012, 09:32 AM
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/army-suicides-year-exceed-2012-combat-deaths-afghanistan
LittleLebowski
10-24-2012, 09:49 AM
http://rt.com/usa/news/us-army-anti-suicide-spray-036/
MadMax17
10-24-2012, 09:59 AM
http://rt.com/usa/news/us-army-anti-suicide-spray-036/
Going after the symptom by throwing money at it... Typical
TCinVA
10-24-2012, 10:07 AM
And before I forget, I think it's important to remember that not all suicides are PTSD or combat related. Sometimes, military lifestyle can just really suck as I tried to touch on in my first post. A regular job can ruin your day.....the military can ruin your life, if for whatever reason (legitimate or not), you find yourself on the wrong end of the system.
That's probably more of the problem than the combat related stressors. It's one thing to get shot at and have people try to blow you up. That's incredibly stressful and it can certainly have a tremendous impact on a person.
It's another thing to get shot at and have people try to blow you up and then people who are supposed to be on your team screw you over and attempt to destroy your life. Human beings in general don't do so well when they have absolutely no support system. Throw in a bit of crumbling domestic situation to a workplace that literally owns you and leadership that makes moves that seem to be calculated to thoroughly destroy you and it's not really a surprise that some people would rather eat a bullet than face another day.
The military as an institution encourages dysfunction...rewards it. Anyone else remember the Army's top general going on TV and worrying that "diversity" was going to be a casualty at Fort Hood before they'd even cleared all the dead and wounded? Yeah. That happened. The mindset that made that possible is so pervasive that the people supposed to supervise the shooter witnessed the guy going on terrorist loving diatribes and celebrating jihad and then questioned themselves about whether or not they were biased against his world view and whether or not that was impacting their evaluation of his academic performance. Why? Because that's how much stupid their chain of command pounded into their brains.
Chemsoldier
10-24-2012, 10:55 AM
The mental health staff at the jail I used to work at made it a point to debunk this myth during our suicide prevention training. Some officers seemed under the impression that asking the suicide-risk questions during the booking process could lead to more suicides. Uhhh...no.
I know this is a myth and I dont believe it should be hidden or not talked about but I wonder about the constant drumbeat of the suicide prevention training we are getting. When it is in every weekend safety brief, when you have special presentations on it, you have to fill out online surveys about it, watch videos on it, etc. In the last 24 months I have heard about suicide in an official capacity much more often than I received range training and first aid training combined. The only thing we get more often than suicide related training is PT. YMMV, this is the units I have been in and their suicide rate is no better than the Army average and worse than some units. The units I have been in are pretty good on eliminating the stigma of asking for help, most of the remaining reluctance is deep seated military culture and will change slowly if at all.
I think one thing that may help is additional measures to assure gun owning service members that a diagnosis of PTSD will not harm their ability to own guns later and once those meaures are in place a campaign to push that word down. Even that will only have so much effect though, plenty of people dont trust the government to not change their minds on it later.
You know what I was just thinking?
Here, the military is trying to restrict access to guns for potentially depressed people.
When you get your leg blown off, leave the military, and are depressed, there are organizations that GIVE you a gun (http://www.m1forvets.com/).
One endeavor seems to be working.
Hint hint, dumbasses.
Again, this is just another way to illustrate the leadership mentality in the military. Control and restrict you, instead of treating you like a professional and giving you something to be proud of.
BaiHu
11-28-2012, 11:10 AM
I've never served in the military and I know there are rules/regs that would make non-mil types tilt their head dog-style, but this truly seems like an article from the Onion, no?
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/11/27/175710/in-suicide-epidemic-military-wrestles.html
Chemsoldier
11-28-2012, 11:34 AM
I've never served in the military and I know there are rules/regs that would make non-mil types tilt their head dog-style, but this truly seems like an article from the Onion, no?
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/11/27/175710/in-suicide-epidemic-military-wrestles.html
Welcome to Article 134: "all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty."
So basically the military can prosecute you for anything if they think it is bad for the good order and discipline of the force or makes the force look bad.
It also has to do with a psychological argument going on right now. Some people believe that if you modify the current stigmas or emotions towards suicide, then you'll feel less inclined as there won't be the same motivation based off our current psyche. So, in addition to courts martial, some are arguing that if we stripped those who committed suicide of their benefits, then they will have less inclination to commit suicide. Given the military leadership's complete inability to address the simplest of issues (like keeping your fly closed) I fully expect that to backfire if they tried to implement it. Let's stick to omega-3 smoothies, then work on not making everyone a dick that hates life. Leave the psychological manufacturing of society stuff to the Illuminati.
Chemsoldier
11-28-2012, 03:29 PM
Given the military leadership's complete inability to address the simplest of issues (like keeping your fly closed) I fully expect that to backfire if they tried to implement it.
What group exactly IS good at keeping its fly closed? The Victorians were the most controlled and controlling people I can think of who told everyone that having a good time at anything (let alone sex) was unhealthy and they couldnt keep it in their pants. That seems much closer to a human condition that an institutional issue.
It's funny, when a service member successfully committs suicide it's a tragedy & that person is usually treated as a casualty of war. When they attempt it & don't die, they're prosecuted. Awesome! That's definitely the way to go (not!). We had a young Cpl kill himself in formation in Iraq in front of everybody. It was shocking to say the least. Prosecuting failed attempts is a horrible idea though.
What group exactly IS good at keeping its fly closed? The Victorians were the most controlled and controlling people I can think of who told everyone that having a good time at anything (let alone sex) was unhealthy and they couldnt keep it in their pants. That seems much closer to a human condition that an institutional issue.
FWIW, I thought this was interesting:
FP: Why DOD Investigators are Finding More Wrongdoing Among Senior Officers (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/11/30/why_dod_investigators_are_finding_more_wrongdoing_ among_senior_officers)
peterb
11-30-2012, 10:47 AM
Along those same lines: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/11/general-failure/309148/
Along those same lines: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/11/general-failure/309148/
The answer is General Mattis.
LittleLebowski
11-30-2012, 11:24 AM
The answer is General Mattis.
Agreed.
Chemsoldier
11-30-2012, 12:01 PM
FWIW, I thought this was interesting:
FP: Why DOD Investigators are Finding More Wrongdoing Among Senior Officers (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/11/30/why_dod_investigators_are_finding_more_wrongdoing_ among_senior_officers)
True enough, though Ricks is a curmudgeon of the highest order, you could give him an apple just because you liked his beard and he would assume there were nefarious motives or at least wasteful and inefficient.
I'm just saying that extra-marital sex is nothing new for the military and likely no more common (likely less) than in most areas of civilian employment. Many of the GOs in WWII were engaging in daliances and as Ricks points out, they were being sh*tcanned for battlefield ineffectiveness, not for boning the locals.
Some of the issue in GO effectiveness today is that the military personnel system refuses to get on a wartime footing, which is hardly surprising since our civilian leadership told the citizenry after 9/11 that the best they could do to help the effort is to keep spending money and act like nothing is wrong. The desire to keep everyone's careers on track pushes short durations in leadership positions, emphasizes seasoning rather than excellence and has caused an eval system where you cant just say, "this guy is solid, but he sucked at x." THe institutional momentum is amazing.
A lot of that is structural. Who cares if you ruin the promotion prospects of a general in WWII? The military was so big in WWII that they new the majority of even general officers would be civilians within 2 years of the war ending. The military is not looking at great changes in its force structure now no matter if the wars we are involved in wind down or not. So the institution is still fixated on running its normal manning cycles.
The other thing is that when guys were fired in WWII they were generally no longer commanding combat divisions and corps...the penultimate job in the Army. But most of them stayed in uniform and did other jobs. They continued to get paid the same amount to do much easier duties. The growth of the Army in WWII meant that from a 25,000 man in the mid 1930s they were running 95 divisions with 1.5 million men in divisional units alone. They were elevating a LOT of guys to ranks they may not have been ready for. Today there are only 10 divisions in the Army. By the time they make Division command, a GO has been in the Army for many years and gotten evaluated a lot. While the system could be better, by and large, the people that make it through are pretty effective and vetted. That demographic of officer would be very unlikely to get the axe had they been in command during WWII. Some doubtlessly would have, but they are a much more carefully selected group.
peterb
11-30-2012, 12:17 PM
The desire to keep everyone's careers on track pushes short durations in leadership positions, emphasizes seasoning rather than excellence and has caused an eval system where you cant just say, "this guy is solid, but he sucked at x."
Which is a shame, because nobody's good at everything. If, for example, you're a logistics genius but a poor combat leader, there should be a path that lets you use your strengths instead of just punishing you for your weaknesses. That'd make honest evals easier.
True enough, though Ricks is a curmudgeon of the highest order, you could give him an apple just because you liked his beard and he would assume there were nefarious motives or at least wasteful and inefficient.
FWIW, Ricks didn't write that. He's only one of many that write for FP.
Chemsoldier
11-30-2012, 12:55 PM
FWIW, Ricks didn't write that. He's only one of many that write for FP.
No, but it is the subject of his latest book, which has played its part in this debate. Ricks is the leading voice on this subject, and to be fair he cares, he is not just spouting the media's normal "military bad" line.
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