Pushing the Nose Bone into the Brain

[cosermann]

We've all probably heard at one time or another that if a person's nose is struck just right, with empty hands, it can push the bone "up into the brain" and kill them.

My take is that this is complete baloney. Doesn't happen.

What do the experts say? Can anyone point to a verifiable case of this actually occurring?

I know of none.

[HeavyDuty]

Not on total point, but an insured’s employee died close to this way. He was driving at night in far northern WI and hit (IIRC) a moose. Apparently he was picking his nose when it happened…

[45dotACP]

We've all probably heard at one time or another that if a person's nose is struck just right, with empty hands, it can push the bone "up into the brain" and kill them.

My take is that this is complete baloney. Doesn't happen.

What do the experts say? Can anyone point to a verifiable case of this actually occurring?

I know of none.Look up "Mike Perry nose break"

If it was gonna kill anyone, Perry would be ded.

It's a bunch of baloney.

That said...really bad head trauma can kill you.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

I'll put on my vertebrate anatomist hat for a moment:

So, if you look at cranial osteology (bone anatomy), the two thinnest parts of the skulls are at the temples and through the ethmoid bone. The ethmoid bone sits behind and slightly above nasal concha ('nose bones'). In theory it might be possible to shove a nasal concha through an ethmoid and into the brain. There are two serious problems to this.

The first is that nasal concha are the thinnest, most fragile bones in the body. Definitely thinner and less dense than the ethmoid. So, shoving them through the ethmoid would be nearly impossible. It could happen, but you have much better odds of hitting the lottery.

Second, the areas of the brain that sit above the ethmoid are mainly the pituitary region and the frontal lobes. Both of which are critical for normal human function, like growth, sleep, decision making, etc. But we know from decades and decades or performing frontal lobectomies that humans can continue to live with significant portions of the frontal lobe damaged or removed. So, even if you did manage to succeed in shoving a nasal concha through the ethmoid into the brain, the chances of hitting something 'fight ending' from a physiological perspective are pretty low. Much more likely than instantaneous fight stoppage is is hitting a critical nerve or artery that causes other significant damage eventually resulting in a physiological stop...eventually. That's predicated on shoving something through the ethmoid.

You'd do a better job of attacking the head with strikes, to induce rotational inertia that causes a knockout or otherwise try to execute a choke.

[Totem Polar]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/11/nintchdbpict000283262437.jpg?crop=636px%2C2164px%2 C2357px%2C1569px&resize=1280%2C852&quality=44

[Outpost75]

BIC pen, pencil, chopstick, nail file, icepick jammed forcefully and deeply into the eye socket or ear canal is well established tradeecraft.

[feudist]

A lot of TMA targeting stuff is based on the Chinese complete lack of knowledge of the human anatomy, and believing in midichlorians.
Another good one was chopping the clavicle and driving it into the lung.

[Joe in PNG]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/11/nintchdbpict000283262437.jpg?crop=636px%2C2164px%2 C2357px%2C1569px&resize=1280%2C852&quality=44

I might know that guy...

[Totem Polar]

On the other hand, the Inuits, among others, had some degree of 17th-c. success with driving the dick bone into the brain…

;)

[feudist]

On the other hand, the Inuits, among others, had some degree of 17th-c. success with driving the dick bone into the brain…

;)

The dick bone drives the brain. Like a drunken monkey. In an F22 with the afterburner jammed on.
Actually, the dick bone is the brain for about...50-60 years or so.

[Totem Polar]

The dick bone drives the brain. Like a drunken monkey. In an F22 with the afterburner jammed on.
Actually, the dick bone is the brain for about...50-60 years or so.

Yeah… I’ll admit to wearing the ol’ baculum goggles on occasion when I was younger…

[feudist]

Yeah… I’ll admit to wearing the ol’ baculum goggles on occasion when I was younger…

So I learned 3 things today.

What a baculum is, and reading this article in Scientific American, what "intromission" is...also that more than 3 minutes of copulation is considered "prolonged intromission"
I have sent that article to every woman I have ever known.
Sciences, bitches!

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-humans-have-no-penis-bone/

[Totem Polar]

Sciences, bitches!


Fuedist talking to his formers:

https://media.tenor.com/e_VaornxdqQAAAAC/science-thomas-dolby.gif

[Joe in PNG]

The dick bone drives the brain. Like a drunken monkey. In an F22 with the afterburner jammed on.


The Hunter Biden biography in a nutshell.

[Cecil Burch]

A lot of TMA targeting stuff is based on the Chinese complete lack of knowledge of the human anatomy, and believing in midichlorians.
.


Dude, that may be the funniest but most perfect description of TMA stuff that I’ve ever heard. I blew coffee out of my nose.

You win the internet for today.

[RevolverRob]

BIC pen, pencil, chopstick, nail file, icepick jammed forcefully and deeply into the eye socket or ear canal is well established tradeecraft.

The key word is deeply.

The ear canal is a different story from the nose for sure. The inner ear sits slightly in front of the cerebellum and immediately lateral to the brain stem. An icepick jabbed through the ear canal, middle ear, inner ear, and through the relatively thin bone, could hit the brain stem and potentially sever it - end result is a Stab, flop, DOA.

Eye socket, you'd want to target a deep, inward and downward stab from above and go for the same target (brain stem).

You could in theory hit the brain stem through the nose as well, but the nasal concha (thin and crispy they may be), the mucosal tissue, the nasal septum, and the ethmoid are all kind of in the way. Each one adds to less chance of getting through without being deflected. By contrast...

The eye is squishy and easily stabbed through.

The ear drum you can punch through with a q-tip and the middle ear is basically hollow. The inner ear is small, the most resistance comes slamming through the skull wall on the medial side of the inner ear. But even if you didn't get through it...the inner ear is responsible for maintaining balance, equilibrium, and acceleration. Jab an icepick into someone's inner ear and they aren't going far, even if they aren't dead.

[cosermann]

Any Docs in the house that can weigh in as to whether they've ever seen/heard of a case where, using bodily weapons alone (hands and feet), one's nose bone was driven into one's brain?

I'm still in the, "this is traditional martial arts nonsense/folklore/mythology," camp.

[DC_P]

Something I read recently that is somewhat related:

Seriousness of open-handed attacks. (https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/seriousness-of-empty-hand-attacks)


I thought this quote was interesting:

"Dr. Margulies: I do not think that people understand the dangers of the open hand. According to national statistics from 2021, more people died from hands and feet – and that includes boots, of course – than from all the rifles combined. Our “devastating” MSRs (modern sporting rifles) and hunting rifles and .22s were used to kill fewer people than hands and feet. (See https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls ) That does not include the falls that come from things like the knockout and pushover games."

I guess we need to ban hands and feet...

[cosermann]

Something I read recently that is somewhat related:

Seriousness of open-handed attacks. (https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/seriousness-of-empty-hand-attacks)


...

This interview is exactly what prompted me to start this thread. Dr. M says, “A blow to the nose by a martial artist can be fatal because you can literally push the bone up into the brain.”

I think this is mythological nonsense and it caused me to question his credibility. So of course I came here willing to be proven wrong.

[Dr_Thanatos]

Any Docs in the house that can weigh in as to whether they've ever seen/heard of a case where, using bodily weapons alone (hands and feet), one's nose bone was driven into one's brain?

I'm still in the, "this is traditional martial arts nonsense/folklore/mythology," camp.

If it includes the words "and killed them"; no.

I'll defer to the ED/Surgeon/ENT crowd for "and they survived."

[Dr_Thanatos]

The key word is deeply.

The ear canal is a different story from the nose for sure. The inner ear sits slightly in front of the cerebellum and immediately lateral to the brain stem. An icepick jabbed through the ear canal, middle ear, inner ear, and through the relatively thin bone, could hit the brain stem and potentially sever it - end result is a Stab, flop, DOA.

It's possible. But you probably need a hammer for that last little bit. The occipital bone is pretty thick right at the end between the inner ear and the brainstem. And you'll be so deep in the canal that a sharp turn upwards where the petrous bone is thinner isn't going to work well.

[RevolverRob]

It's possible. But you probably need a hammer for that last little bit. The occipital bone is pretty thick right at the end between the inner ear and the brainstem. And you'll be so deep in the canal that a sharp turn upwards where the petrous bone is thinner isn't going to work well.

I feel like we can put a few strain gauges on this and find out, for science of course. :eek: - I volunteer my skull...after I'm dead.

Honestly though what gives me the shudders is the thought of a pick slamming through the inner ear. That could potentially be like the ultimate form of instantaneous motion sickness/vertigo/nausea - given I've had motion sickness bad enough to wish for death. I'd probably hand you the hammer to finish me off at that point...

[Dr_Thanatos]

I feel like we can put a few strain gauges on this and find out, for science of course. :eek: - I volunteer my skull...after I'm dead.


Don't be silly. It's research! I have an endless supply and I don't have an IRB.

(For any onlookers, IRB is an institutional review board. They are the ones you have to convince that your research is meaningful and worthwhile so they will allow you to perform it. Very much designed to protect the institution from negative backlash. Usually staffed with...jerks.)

(Also for any employers, past, present, and future; forensic research is a weird thing. If we're not disfiguring or disrespecting the body, disclosing who our subjects are, or delaying release to the family, we have a little more free reign. IRB's don't care if the decedent is dead.)

(Additionally, for the humor impaired, this is mostly a joke. Just making sure that is explicitly stated. Otherwise somebody who enjoys slamming their genitals in a door will take this seriously.)



Honestly though what gives me the shudders is the thought of a pick slamming through the inner ear. That could potentially be like the ultimate form of instantaneous motion sickness/vertigo/nausea - given I've had motion sickness bad enough to wish for death. I'd probably hand you the hammer to finish me off at that point...

Yeah. That's going to leave a mark.

[Salamander]

So I learned 3 things today.

What a baculum is, and reading this article in Scientific American, what "intromission" is...also that more than 3 minutes of copulation is considered "prolonged intromission"
I have sent that article to every woman I have ever known.
Sciences, bitches!

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-humans-have-no-penis-bone/

That article is actually written in near-english... some in that field are really dense jargon. Once in a graduate systematics class, three PhD's from AMNH completely lost everyone else in the room.

And... at scientific conferences, I've seen phylogeneticists get worked up like gun guys having caliber wars on certain other forums. One guy literally stood on a chair and shook his fist at his colleagues/competitors.

[RevolverRob]

That article is actually written in near-english... some in that field are really dense jargon. Once in a graduate systematics class, three PhD's from AMNH completely lost everyone else in the room.

And... at scientific conferences, I've seen phylogeneticists get worked up like gun guys having caliber wars on certain other forums. One guy literally stood on a chair and shook his fist at his colleagues/competitors.

Five will get you ten I know everyone of those three PhDs. Either personally (if they graduated in the last 15 years) or via reputation (if prior to that). I stopped going to the meetings where the phylogeneticists are common. I grew tired of the pedantry.

Plus, I can only watch so many talks about the latest Bayesian Inferential Methods with hyper-priors before my eyes glaze over (one...I can only watch one of those talks at a time).

[BehindBlueI's]

Something I read recently that is somewhat related:

Seriousness of open-handed attacks. (https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/seriousness-of-empty-hand-attacks)


I thought this quote was interesting:

"Dr. Margulies: I do not think that people understand the dangers of the open hand. According to national statistics from 2021, more people died from hands and feet – and that includes boots, of course – than from all the rifles combined.

The missing context is the vast majority of those victims are shaken babies or otherwise abused small children.

[Ed L]

Here is something From Bruce Tegner's book "Self-Defense: Nerve Centers & Pressure Points for Karate, Jujitsu and Atemi-Waza." where Bruce Tegner explains that it is not possible to drive the nose into the brain because the nose is made up of cartilage and weak bones that will crush before it penetrates the heavier skull bones.

Bruce Tegner was a prolific martial arts instructor and writer who was born in 1929 and died in 1985. His parents were martial arts instructors and his first Black Belt Was in Judo. He went on to win the California state championship in 1950. He studied a variety of martial arts and combined the best parts of Judo, Karate, Jiu Jitsu to create an integrated system that he was teaching as early as the late 1950s. He put them in a practical system which emphasized low kicks and achievable strikes. He choreographed a number of notable movie fighting scene including Spencer Tracy in Bad Day At Black Rock and the fight scene in The Manchurian Candidate. I know him best as a writer of martial arts books on practical self defense and various martial arts from when I was a kid. In his books and his schools he removed the mysticism of martial arts and made them more accessible. Here is a link to more detailed info on Bruce Tegner https://www.usadojo.com/bruce-tegner-before-his-time/, and below is his information on why the nose cannot be driven into the brain:

101084

[DC_P]

The missing context is the vast majority of those victims are shaken babies or otherwise abused small children.

That would seem to be crucial details...

[Dr_Thanatos]

The missing context is the vast majority of those victims are shaken babies or otherwise abused small children.

And if they are adults, they were struck or shoved and lost their balance in a parking lot (usually outside a bar) and struck their head on the pavement.

[45dotACP]

The nephew of Chicago's mayor some while ago killed a kid in a bar fight. Punched him in the head, knocked him out and he fell and hit his head on the concrete.

Of course he was only sentenced to 60 days in prison. It was Chicago, after all.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Salamander]

Five will get you ten I know everyone of those three PhDs. Either personally (if they graduated in the last 15 years) or via reputation (if prior to that). I stopped going to the meetings where the phylogeneticists are common. I grew tired of the pedantry.

Plus, I can only watch so many talks about the latest Bayesian Inferential Methods with hyper-priors before my eyes glaze over (one...I can only watch one of those talks at a time).

It was a long time ago (early '90s)... maybe Gareth Nelson was one of them but not certain. But... I was at the 1989 Univ of Michigan performance of Rommy, "the world's first phylogenetic rock opera," even still have the tee shirt somewhere. Classics like "starch gel wizard" and "Willi Hennig superstar." Support for a hypothesis that at least a few scientists occasionally have a sense of humor. Was working with a couple of those ROM and Guelph guys on polyploid salamanders at the time.

Back OT: I was actually taught the hit-the-nose thing in high school gym class by a totally sadistic 300 lb wrestling coach. He was wrong about a lot of other things, so no surprise if this was another one. Only anecdotal info I can offer is that the last real fight I was in, also a long time ago, a drunk guy sucker punched me straight on in the nose. In return he got a forearm to the side of the head. I walked away a few seconds later, it was more like 10 minutes for him.

[Hambo]

Eye socket, you'd want to target a deep, inward and downward stab from above and go for the same target (brain stem).


An Ed Calderon Bic in the eye is probably a fight winner even if it's not fatal.

[RevolverRob]

An Ed Calderon Bic in the eye is probably a fight winner even if it's not fatal.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWwGXIjxbnI