View Full Version : 10mm field pistol -- FN and G5 20
Clusterfrack
04-02-2023, 02:52 PM
I agree with GJM. I am not a fan of heavy .40 S&W loads because the case wall thickness is not nearly as robust as 10mm. I've experienced a case rupture in Buffalo Bore .40, and never want to repeat that.
GJM
LGS has both a G23 Gen5 MOS and G20 Gen5 MOS for $620. Based off of your testing with both platforms, which are you more likely to recommended as a field pistol for the lower 48?
I think both the G520 and 23 are good pistols. I would be inclined to go with the 20, because it gives you more versatility with ammo choices, and doesn't have the odd holster fit issue of the G523.
Virtuosity Student
04-02-2023, 03:10 PM
Thank you both for your replies and thanks GJM for the time, effort, and money you contribute.
Tod-13
04-06-2023, 06:19 PM
I know exactly what happened. I shot a bunch of heavy loads with just my left hand through the G20 trying to troubleshoot the lock back issue. Then I aggravated it by not stopping shooting my competition pistols, prolonging the recovery time!
Have you considered the FK BRNO PSD? The $2000 one, not the $9000 one.
I thought of this because the recoil is so soft on the PSD.
The mixed:
The safety is like a CZ - comes off safety OK. Doesn't go on as smoothly as a CZ. Might get better with time or as I get more used to the angle.
The good:
Single action only, with an adequate trigger.
It is red dot ready - I suggest the RMR as it appears to sit low enough to use the raised iron sights. Smaller sights, like the Holosun EPS, sit too high, since they need an adapter plate.
The grip is blocky, but is actually more comfortable than the larger, rounded grips on a Glock 20. It is small enough that my wife, whose hands are too small for a Glock 19 can shoot the PSD.
Recoil is like a pleasant 45 ACP.
And it is a 95-101 grain bullet going 2000 FPS.
Falco makes several different kinds of holsters for it.
The not-so-good
It is not as widely used or supported as your other options, but boy does it fit the bill for performance.
Be aware, it looks like they do not properly tighten the set screws for the front and rear sight at the factory.
It is about $80-90 a box of 50 rounds.
Sighting it in was really easy and it was super accurate. As soon as my new Holosun (we have to use green dots, red gives my wife migraines) comes in, I'll take it out and resight it and try it as 50 and 100 yards.
Velo Dog
04-06-2023, 08:34 PM
Have you considered the FK BRNO PSD? The $2000 one, not the $9000 one.
It really does seem as if the Czech company invented the pistols and 7.5 cartridge with someone like GJM in mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omUbwHERvrs
https://www.recoilweb.com/fk-brno-psd-review-165154.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6XkmIpxKW8
LockedBreech
04-07-2023, 10:48 AM
The USP FS is one of the most "awesomest" pistols ever. Wish I had one with an Acro or 509T to shoot alongside the Glock and FN so I could better answer your shootability question. We all know nothing is more reliable than a USP!
What are your thoughts on the HK45, if you've had time with one? I've sorta had the itch for one lately.
What are your thoughts on the HK45, if you've had time with one? I've sorta had the itch for one lately.
For Super ammo, the USP has the double RSA. I also think the match hybrid LEM in the USP FS is the best HK hammer trigger available. HK45 is a fine, and obviously reliable/durable/accurate pistol. I just think the USP is more fine.
LockedBreech
04-07-2023, 03:05 PM
For Super ammo, the USP has the double RSA. I also think the match hybrid LEM in the USP FS is the best HK hammer trigger available. HK45 is a fine, and obviously reliable/durable/accurate pistol. I just think the USP is more fine.
Thank you!
Gotta admit the whole thing that got me down the .45ACP HK path was watching Tom Cruise rock the USP 45 in Collateral for like the 6th time last month (one of my favorite movies).
Tod-13
04-09-2023, 03:07 PM
It is red dot ready - I suggest the RMR as it appears to sit low enough to use the raised iron sights. Smaller sights, like the Holosun EPS, sit too high, since they need an adapter plate.
Sighting it in was really easy and it was super accurate. As soon as my new Holosun (we have to use green dots, red gives my wife migraines) comes in, I'll take it out and resight it and try it as 50 and 100 yards.
I got the Holosun 407C. The higher rear and from sight mostly work. The top half of the front sight is visible, which seems to work good enough. Will post again after shooting it.
I bought a 509 MRD LE as a sub caliber trainer for the FN 510. This model has a single side mag release, a flat trigger and comes with five magazines.
My wrist is feeling healed enough to start shooting some 10mm again. By the way, the trigger on the 509 sucks, but my wife says that may be a feature as a sub caliber training gun for the 510. Also, may be checking out a USP full size 45 with an optic.
I was down the range this morning when an older man wandered over with a long look on his face. When we asked him if we could help him, he said he had a bullet stuck in the barrel of his "Glock," and couldn't get the slide off. When I looked at the pistol, I saw it was a G5 21 with about a $50 optic I had never heard of (and they probably charged him $200 for).
I removed the slide, knocked out the squib, and then tried to show him how to disassemble the pistol. We worked for a few minutes but he just didn't have the dexterity to do it. I asked him if he had zeroed the optic, and he said the shop did when they mounted the optic. I offered to check the zero, and asked him if he had ammo. Just reloads, so I grabbed some ammo from my truck, hoping to avoid another squib. Happened to have the right adjustment allen key in my pocket, and got him zeroed.
I had the FN 510 with me, as I pulled the Acro P1 last night, and replaced it with a P2, as I plan to use this pistol this summer. I had rough zeroed it with the Wheeler laser, so I figured it would be close. Here were my first five at 25 yards.
103988
That looked pretty good, so I walked back and shot another five of S&B. The S&B hits close to my other loads, which is convenient.
103989
Next, I decided to shoot an array with the 510, using the Grauffel grip method. That method seems to work well with 10mm.
https://youtu.be/OavU4dHEEbM
Note to self, add 35 rounds of S&B to the FN round totals.
Worth a read -- different penetrating bullet:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/g9-woodsman-10mm-review/
MickAK
05-02-2023, 07:45 AM
Worth a read -- different penetrating bullet:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/g9-woodsman-10mm-review/
That's an interesting shape. Looks cheaper to produce than XPs as well.
That's an interesting shape. Looks cheaper to produce than XPs as well.
I bought a few boxes of them in 10mm and 9mm to try.
Velo Dog
05-02-2023, 01:38 PM
https://youtu.be/3Bau4aPKwgg
https://youtu.be/3Bau4aPKwgg
Navin Johnson
05-02-2023, 04:59 PM
What are the chances we could get a watermelon or clay block test for a definitive answer?
1slow
05-02-2023, 11:12 PM
Very slightly reminds me of the French Arcane bullets of 1970s, 1980s. Concave spire point, almost wadcutter shoulder.
Very slightly reminds me of the French Arcane bullets of 1970s, 1980s. Concave spire point, almost wadcutter shoulder.
Euro design to be more effective without being an inhumane expanding hollowpoint is how I recalled it's origin. That may be gun mag BS however.
I seem to recall it was pulled from the market because of it's efficiency penetrating soft body armor of the day. Is that accurate?
1slow
05-03-2023, 02:32 AM
I read the same thing about Arcane penetrating soft armor but do not know the facts.
Euro design to be more effective without being an inhumane expanding hollowpoint is how I recalled it's origin. That may be gun mag BS however.
I seem to recall it was pulled from the market because of it's efficiency penetrating soft body armor of the day. Is that accurate?
Something like that. That french bullet design was called THV (tres haute vitesse - very high velocity).
There is 'some' resemblance with the design of the Woodsman bullet tip.
Sage review of 545 (not 510):
https://youtu.be/mbPTGc7J4Bg
CHPWS plate for 509T on FN:
https://chpws.com/product/fn509t-holosun509t/
Back in Alaska, I loaded up the G5 20 and FN 510 with the Cutting Edge Penetrator ammo and have them ready to go. Glad to have done all the work in the off season to vet the pistols and ammo as you have to hit the ground running.
105534
And the new M&P 10mm model showed up to late for the season!
Clusterfrack
07-02-2023, 04:17 PM
GJM, if you get a chance can you measure the overall length of those Cutting Edge 190gr rounds? I’m getting ready to work up a load for those using Accurate #9, and want to make sure I get the seating depth correct.
Clusterfrack
07-02-2023, 05:09 PM
GJM, if you get a chance can you measure the overall length of those Cutting Edge 190gr rounds? I’m getting ready to work up a load for those using Accurate #9, and want to make sure I get the seating depth correct.
Thanks for the DM GJM
My wrists are sore from the 10mm shooting, especially support hand only, that I have been doing in addition to my regular shooting. Might need to take a day or two off from 10mm.
Since the FN looks like it will enter regular field service, I replaced the SRO with an Acro. Hope FN gets some extra magazines out there soon.
101850
It took forever for my wrist to heal. No doubt taking a week off from shooting to accompany my wife to CO Nats and then recurrent flight training helped, but in any event this is the first it hasn't hurt since I injured it in February.
Duces Tecum
07-02-2023, 07:56 PM
George,
OTC Voltarin (generic: Diclofenac) is what we generally use for both sprains (ligaments) and strains (muscles):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000B6I54G/ref=emc_bcc_2_i
Previously, horse linament seemed to help.
https://www.amazon.com/Absorbine-Veterinary-Liniment-Gel-12-Ounce/dp/B000B6I54G
Cordially,
Duces
fatdog
07-03-2023, 04:03 AM
OTC Voltarin (generic: Diclofenac) is what we generally use for both sprains (ligaments) and strains (muscles):
[/URL]
This Voltarin stuff (https://www.walgreens.com/store/c/voltaren-arthritis-pain-gel/ID=300433242-product) was prescription only just a few years ago, now otc, and it was wonderful for my arthritic knee until I got the joint replaced. No other external cream or gel even came close to what it did for me.
ldunnmobile
09-13-2023, 10:29 PM
Any updates on how the G9 ammo is performing? Especially in the 510?
Any updates on how the G9 ammo is performing? Especially in the 510?
I have been carrying a Glock 19 or 47 with G9 in AK and MT this summer. Occasionally the G5 20 with Cutting Edge, but not the FN.
I don't know what their specific coating is but most in general are pretty similar and I see no downside.
This is speaking is generalities, but in the same manner that you can push lead faster than you can push a jacketed projectile, the poly coated projectiles allow you to get a bit more velocity and still be safe, pressure wise. I have run some very fast loads using polymer coated loads in testing.
In fact I just got in some new components to see how fast I can push a heavy hardcast, poly coated 9mm out of a Glock. I am still unboxing my stuff from the move but when time allows plan on doing some testing, since pretty much everyone shoots a 9mm better than anything else.
Just my $0.02 I would appreciate a line of hardcast poly coated "Field Loads" that would be optimized for reliability in Glock, and whatever 2nd most common pistol would be, as well as penetration with as blunt nose as possible in standard service calibers 9mm, 40, & 45 ACP besides the 10mm.
Buffalo Bore has their "Outdoorsman" loads that are sort of like that but don't think they are really tweaks for reliability since most that shop there want max power.
Lost River
09-16-2023, 07:17 PM
Just my $0.02 I would appreciate a line of hardcast poly coated "Field Loads" that would be optimized for reliability in Glock, and whatever 2nd most common pistol would be, as well as penetration with as blunt nose as possible in standard service calibers 9mm, 40, & 45 ACP besides the 10mm.
Buffalo Bore has their "Outdoorsman" loads that are sort of like that but don't think they are really tweaks for reliability since most that shop there want max power.
Those are in the works, and the .40 has already been developed. It is one I worked on for quite a long time. I wanted the trifecta of reliability, accuracy and velocity. Went through a bunch of projectiles of various weights and profiles. Finally it all came together.
The 170 grain poly coated +P .40 SWC at 1200 FPS from a stock G22.3 barrel. Superb accuracy from the test guns.
https://i.imgur.com/yAriAI5h.jpg
Normally I carry a 9mm for a lot of my summer/ non woods carry purposes. But because the 170 grain heavy .40 load was so accurate and easy to shoot well, I started carrying it as a daily gun more and more.
https://i.imgur.com/rZ8ETSOh.jpg
My 50 yard shooting (rested) is not great, but it gives you an idea of what it is capable of.
https://i.imgur.com/6rWpiluh.jpg
Been carrying this all summer.
https://i.imgur.com/ga3h1yFh.jpg
As far as the 10mm and .45 go, that is still in the works. I have a non coated .45 that has been such a solid performer (a 250 GRN flat nose at 925) that I have not looked to hard recently at changing that up. It is without question my favorite load for Grizzly country, as the formula of a large bore bullet such as a .44/.45 at a moderate velocity, that is easy to shoot well, has been extremely successful at killing large game for well over a century. Putting it into an auto pistol just makes doing so faster, with less recoil.
I know that 10mms are the most popular, but personally I think many seriously miss the boat when it comes to heavy .45 ACP loads. They are super hard to stop. I have killed elk, deer, a bunch of vehicle struck, but semi mobile cattle, and other game with the .45 and proper loads, and it is rare to need more than one shot.
Glock's polygonal rifling handles the hardcast bullets with ease and in well over 100K rounds of hardcast through various Glock 21 .45s, I have never had a single problem. That said, I will eventually here develop a poly-coated load for the .45 ACP.
Same with the 10mm.
I have been carrying a Glock 19 or 47 with G9 in AK and MT this summer. Occasionally the G5 20 with Cutting Edge, but not the FN.
I assume the G9 9mm stuff has been reliable in your guns for a fair number of rounds for you to trust it. The bullet shape really had me wondering if it'd be reliable. I really like the idea of solid copper, especially in that near wadcutter profile... but man that stuff is expensive.
FWIW, I put 50 rounds of the Lost River 148 hardcast through my G19, and 10 rounds through my G26 without issue. I'm saving the rest for camp/hunting/hiking use, and I may buy some more in the future. I had no issues with the lead bullets (other than maybe a little smoke, compared to jacketed loads), but I'd be interested in a poly coated version, simply for the sake of less lead exposure.
I assume the G9 9mm stuff has been reliable in your guns for a fair number of rounds for you to trust it. The bullet shape really had me wondering if it'd be reliable. I really like the idea of solid copper, especially in that near wadcutter profile... but man that stuff is expensive.
FWIW, I put 50 rounds of the Lost River 148 hardcast through my G19, and 10 rounds through my G26 without issue. I'm saving the rest for camp/hunting/hiking use, and I may buy some more in the future. I had no issues with the lead bullets (other than maybe a little smoke, compared to jacketed loads), but I'd be interested in a poly coated version, simply for the sake of less lead exposure.
No reliability issues observed with the G9 124 grain or Lehigh Underwood 115+P loads. A few issues with the Underwood 147+P coated hard cast load in Glock pistols.
Those are in the works, and the .40 has already been developed. It is one I worked on for quite a long time. I wanted the trifecta of reliability, accuracy and velocity. Went through a bunch of projectiles of various weights and profiles. Finally it all came together.
The 170 grain poly coated +P .40 SWC at 1200 FPS from a stock G22.3 barrel. Superb accuracy from the test guns.
Normally I carry a 9mm for a lot of my summer/ non woods carry purposes. But because the 170 grain heavy .40 load was so accurate and easy to shoot well, I started carrying it as a daily gun more and more.
My 50 yard shooting (rested) is not great, but it gives you an idea of what it is capable of.
Been carrying this all summer.
As far as the 10mm and .45 go, that is still in the works. I have a non coated .45 that has been such a solid performer (a 250 GRN flat nose at 925) that I have not looked to hard recently at changing that up. It is without question my favorite load for Grizzly country, as the formula of a large bore bullet such as a .44/.45 at a moderate velocity, that is easy to shoot well, has been extremely successful at killing large game for well over a century. Putting it into an auto pistol just makes doing so faster, with less recoil.
I know that 10mms are the most popular, but personally I think many seriously miss the boat when it comes to heavy .45 ACP loads. They are super hard to stop. I have killed elk, deer, a bunch of vehicle struck, but semi mobile cattle, and other game with the .45 and proper loads, and it is rare to need more than one shot.
Glock's polygonal rifling handles the hardcast bullets with ease and in well over 100K rounds of hardcast through various Glock 21 .45s, I have never had a single problem. That said, I will eventually here develop a poly-coated load for the .45 ACP.
Same with the 10mm.
Great!
I agree the 45 ACP with proper load is good, I handload hardly at all so I went with 10mm over 45 ACP for that role years ago because there weren't any factory 45 ACP loads I liked for field use then, and 10mm was legal for handgun hunting locally though law has changed. Plus before pain became limiting issue for me I would generally use N frame if wanted more than G26 or J frame for anything serious. Then 10mm was usually the sidearm to 629 when handgun hunting.
FWIW having a trustworthy company with proper loads for specific uses is really helpful when friends/family ask for suggestions.
Average gun owner I know isn't like typical PF reader, so being able to say your home defense Glock with this load will do fine vs Black Bear if needed when your at Cabin up north is real helpful. Most of them don't do much practice, more into hunting than anything else and tend to hunt with rifles and shotguns but tend to have one pistol for defense. And I know they will shoot a service caliber pistol better under time pressure than a 44/45 revolver.
Your 40 load sound on right track to me, I've long compared performance of old cartridges with long history to modern cartridges, figure if they worked for decades or longer back then with older bullet technology they will still work today. Long noted that standard 40 S&W loads from pistol were practically identical to original 38-40 or 44-40 from revolvers, while the 10mm was equivalent to 38-40 and 44-40 from levergun. Your 40 load is on par with 38-40 from levergun.
Side note, read at least once Ross Seyfried saying that for him idea with the modern 45 Long Colt 5 shot revolver loads and the 475 Linbaugh was to replicate old blackpowder rifle cartridge performance in handgun. I think he also implied if not outright stated that the LBT style bullets with proper lead alloy and casting technique gives you better bullet performance than those original cartridges had.
Clusterfrack
10-10-2023, 05:02 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231010/e11edb4de0497988211a9524db8d20a4.jpg
10mm 190gr Cutting Edge solid, 8.6gr 800X (compressed), magnum primers. ~1150fps from a Glock20.4.
(Use at your own risk)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231010/e11edb4de0497988211a9524db8d20a4.jpg
10mm 190gr Cutting Edge solid, 8.6gr 800X (compressed), magnum primers. ~1150fps from a Glock20.4.
(Use at your own risk)
My factory Cutting Edge rounds are right under 1,100 fps in my G5 20. This is with 15 rounds of Cutting Edge.
110396
I just bought a Boresight G5 20 and plan to mount an EPS which should bring it in just under 40 ounces loaded.
Salamander
10-14-2023, 07:16 PM
Looking for thoughts/opinions on something:
For quite a few years my backcountry carry has been, depending on the location and situation, either a USP45 full size match-LEM hybrid, a USP 9 compact, or a 3-inch 357 magnum. For the time being that's not going to change.
But I'm old enough that it's becoming easier to shoot accurately with optics than with iron sights. I've thought about just getting the USP slides cut but there are only a few folks doing that, and I can get Glock slides cut for half to a third of the cost so at least for the transition may go that route. Easier to change if it takes a while to settle on the right setup.
There are some complications being in California, details below for those who want the full thought process but the short version is gen 5 Glock's are not on the roster here so a lot of the pistols discussed above are not currently an easy option.
After reading some older threads, I'm wondering about the viability of a Glock 35 gen 3 as an optics capable field pistol in 40. What does everyone think?
Nothing bigger than black bear near here, and they're generally afraid of people (but fairly common in some areas). Dogs are actually the most common local woods risk.
Reasons for:
- There are G35 examples on the shelf at two LGS, although I'm not really in a hurry, the plan is to have something set up and vetted for reliability by a year from now;
- Allegedly, the G35 slide is a little heavier/beefier? Is that true? It feels good in hand but I haven't shot one yet (only a friend's G40, and was accurate/no issues with that).
- Numerous optics choices and easy/relatively inexpensive to get the slide cut;
- I have some G9 Woodsman on order in 9mm and 45acp for testing, and it's also available in 40, that widens non-lead ammo options for California use;
- The G35 fits in the Hill People Gear original that I use for carry when wearing a full backpack, even an Acro P2 won't change that. For dayhikes, OWB is practical, under a light jacket in cool season or on federal land open carry is usually OK for the warmer months. I have smaller things for in town.
- The flexibility is tempting. The OEM barrel for field and some practice, the ability to get a 9mm conversion barrel for the range, the ability to get a 357 Sig barrel just because I still have an ammo can full of that caliber to use up.
- Some of the older threads suggest good reliability but don't specifically discuss woods use.
Other possibilities include a G21 or G17, or getting the USP slides cut at $300-$400+ each. In the meantime the plan is to send my G26 slide out for an optics cut and probably an EPS in the very near future and see how I like that. I've had RDS on my 22LR for several years and on a couple of rifles for much longer than that and really like it. In the short term I can still do OK with iron sights on full size and long slide pistols, it's the shorter sight radius stuff where that front sight is getting harder to see.
A note on the roster: Eventually this problem may go away, we have district court wins on Boland vs Bonta and Renna vs Bonta but both injunctions on the roster are stayed pending appeal. Could take a couple years or more to sort out. The decisions did open up the ability to add new pistols to the roster if they have both loaded chamber indicator and magazine disconnect, that's how the optics ready P320 M18 just became the first new pistol added to the roster since 2007. There could be a few more coming, or the manufacturers may just wait for the appeals to play out. Someday I expect to be able to buy gen 5 MOS pistols without paying scalper private party prices, but am tired of waiting. I'd like to do this while I can still do long multi-day hikes on rugged terrain.
I think you should cut a 9mm Glock slide that you have for a dot and see how an optic works for you.
I got another G5 Glock 20, this one with a Boresight level one stippling package, and asked Ben to make it extra sharp, to help with traction in cold and wet conditions. Mounted an EPS full size on a DPP plate.
110502
It is 27 ounces unloaded without a magazine.
110503
I boresighted it with a Wheeler laser, and it was within an inch or two when I shot it for the first time today. This is five rounds of S&B 180 and five rounds of HST at 15 yards.
110504
Then I shot the Cutting Edge at 25 yards -- it hits a smidge lower.
110505
Really dig this pistol. Round count so far is 35 rounds of S&B, 5 rounds of HST and 20 rounds of Cutting Edge 190 penetrators, so 60 rounds no issues.
https://youtu.be/RqJMzWuYDYw?si=jWvmKPyyGv1pJ61_
Wes Peart
11-26-2023, 03:38 PM
Seems like you've worked your way through most of the 10mm's out there.. Curious if you ever looked at an FK PSD?
111899
Seems as though that pistol was designed from day zero to handle extremely spicy loadings in the form of the 7.5 FK which is a 10mm necked down to 30 cal if I'm not mistaken. Made optics ready to boot
consumer_ignorance
11-28-2023, 09:13 AM
I’m pretty new here, but this thread has been awesome. I’ve read the entire thing in one sitting.
I’m curious — did the optics ready USP .45 ever show up? I’d love to hear your final “Glock vs. USP” thoughts, if you have any! I’m looking at picking up a field pistol for the lower 48 (mostly Utah, where I live). I’m fairly budget constrained, but I can afford either a used USP .45 or a Glock 20 Gen 5 (neither one optics-equipped).
If you had to pick one and couldn’t spend more than say $150 vetting the pistol, which would you choose (Glock 20 Gen 5 vs USP .45 with Supers)? Thank you for all the hard work you’ve put in, and for sharing what you’ve found!
Clusterfrack
11-29-2023, 02:35 PM
I’m pretty new here, but this thread has been awesome. I’ve read the entire thing in one sitting.
I’m curious — did the optics ready USP .45 ever show up? I’d love to hear your final “Glock vs. USP” thoughts, if you have any! I’m looking at picking up a field pistol for the lower 48 (mostly Utah, where I live). I’m fairly budget constrained, but I can afford either a used USP .45 or a Glock 20 Gen 5 (neither one optics-equipped).
If you had to pick one and couldn’t spend more than say $150 vetting the pistol, which would you choose (Glock 20 Gen 5 vs USP .45 with Supers)? Thank you for all the hard work you’ve put in, and for sharing what you’ve found!
Challenging question. What handgun do you currently use? Practice is as important as testing for reliability, and $150 doesn't go that far in 10mm or 45 ammo. I feel safe carrying my standard CCW, a 9mm CZ P-07 loaded with Underwood/Lehigh 115gr XP (or possibly Lost River's hard cast load (https://www.lostriverammocompany.com/product/9mm-P-148-grain-Hard-Cast-Flat-Point-Predator-Penetrator-Velocity-1100-FPS-100-RND)) in grizzly country.
If you're dead set on a heavy caliber, the USP .45 fits your hands, and you don't care about an optic--I think the USP 45 is the easy/cheap button. I like my customized G20 quite a bit, but it does require aftermarket parts (460 Rowland mag springs & shims, and a 24# recoil spring/rod from Glockmeister).
GJM has tested the Gen5 G20 with medium power loads in this thread, so that's a good option. However... a buddy just bought a G20.5, and we have observed the same FTF malfunctions as with previous generations when using full power 10mm loads (not flat hardcast bullets).
EDIT: I think the HK45 can also handle 45 Super, so it might be added your list.
I’m pretty new here, but this thread has been awesome. I’ve read the entire thing in one sitting.
I’m curious — did the optics ready USP .45 ever show up? I’d love to hear your final “Glock vs. USP” thoughts, if you have any! I’m looking at picking up a field pistol for the lower 48 (mostly Utah, where I live). I’m fairly budget constrained, but I can afford either a used USP .45 or a Glock 20 Gen 5 (neither one optics-equipped).
If you had to pick one and couldn’t spend more than say $150 vetting the pistol, which would you choose (Glock 20 Gen 5 vs USP .45 with Supers)? Thank you for all the hard work you’ve put in, and for sharing what you’ve found!
Challenging question. What handgun do you currently use? Practice is as important as testing for reliability, and $150 doesn't go that far in 10mm or 45 ammo. I feel safe carrying my standard CCW, a 9mm CZ P-07 loaded with Underwood/Lehigh 115gr XP (or possibly Lost River's hard cast load (https://www.lostriverammocompany.com/product/9mm-P-148-grain-Hard-Cast-Flat-Point-Predator-Penetrator-Velocity-1100-FPS-100-RND)) in grizzly country.
If you're dead set on a heavy caliber, the USP .45 fits your hands, and you don't care about an optic--I think the USP 45 is the easy/cheap button. I like my customized G20 quite a bit, but it does require aftermarket parts (460 Rowland mag springs & shims, and a 24# recoil spring/rod from Glockmeister).
GJM has tested the Gen5 G20 with medium power loads in this thread, so that's a good option. However... a buddy just bought a G20.5, and we have observed the same FTF malfunctions as with previous generations when using full power 10mm loads (not flat hardcast bullets).
EDIT: I think the HK45 can also handle 45 Super, so it might be added your list.
I can't think of any gun more reliable than a USP FS 45. I have one that LTT cut for an optic. The Lehigh penetrators in .45 acp and Super ran in my many USP pistols, hard cast can be iffy.
What in UT makes you want 45 Super or 10mm over 9 or .40?
The G5 20 reliability reports with heavy loads are distressing.
Perusing the local gun shop, I saw a "non tactical" version of the FN 510 and 545 has been introduced, at about $779. At that price, it becomes competitive with the G5 Glock 20, given you don't need BUIS or most optic plates (do need to buy one for the Acro and 509T).
I bought the 510, and asked my friend there to grind the right side of the ambi mag release. I had very good luck with the original 520, after addressing the mag release, and plan to run some heavy hard cast Underwood loads through it.
The trigger on this newest 510 feels quite decent for an out if the box pistol, and should only improve with rounds fired. Before, I felt like I shot the G5 20 better than the FN, but this trigger has me rethinking that.
The only holster I have here for the 510 is a Floodlight that necessitates using an X300, and is definitely a slower draw for me. Here is the 510 today, shooting full power S&B ammo.
https://youtu.be/GVeU90bOyZQ?feature=shared
For comparison, this is an array with a Glock 19, from last week. While the 19 is easier to shoot fast, as you would expect being 9mm, I felt like I could place accurate shots with the FN, just slower.
https://youtu.be/E2tRVStfq7o?feature=shared
I shot another 50 S&B through the new 510 today, bringing me to 100 rounds without issue. Next I am going to try some Underwood hard cast, to see how it runs.
I really like how this pistol shoots.
I shot a box (20) of Underwood 200 grain hard cast through the new 510 today. No issues, bringing me to 120 rounds since new. Point of impact of the hard cast was essentially the same as the S&B 180 FMJ. The hard cast is definitely smokier than the FMJ.
I shot two arrays with the 510 with hard cast, followed by two arrays with the Glock 19 (with 124 Lawman) to compare the two. I finished with a one hand string on the same array with the 19, and that is definitely easier than with the 10mm.
I was sensing my new 509T on the FN wasn't as bright as I am used to, initially thought it was the Holosun battery, and finally realized it is a problem with the + button. The - button works fine, but the + is balky, and sometimes you need to push it multiple times to get it to increase intensity. Back to Holosun it goes.
https://youtu.be/d4W8FrlwNIE?feature=shared
The trigger in this latest 510, and on the other ones in the shop, is exceptional for a factory trigger. I just pulled out a 509 I bought last year, and the trigger pull weight is 1.5 pounds heavier.
I spent a few hours at the range this morning with my wife and than a few more hours later this afternoon, shooting with Darryl Bolke. Yesterday, I switched optics on my FN 510, as the 509T has an issue with the plus button working properly. At the beginning of the afternoon session, I started by zeroing the new 509T. In 50 rounds of S&B zeroing and shooting with Darryl, I had three stoppages. Need to sort that out, but I am really bummed. Probably a reason I keep coming back to a 9mm Glock pistols and penetrator ammo as a field gun, as the Glocks just run. I did have fun shooting 250 rounds thru my G19 with Darryl.
Something is definitely wrong with this newest FN 510. I shot it again late this afternoon. First, I got through a few mags of S&B 180, but then I had a stoppage with the S&B. I marked that mag, in case it was mag related, and shot more with the other mag that came with the pistol. I had a stoppage with that second mag, so it took a specific mag away as the problem. The S&B came from several different boxes, but was from the case of 1,000 that ran so well in the first 510 Tactical.
Next I decided to try the Cutting Edge 190 penetrator load, that ran well in the 510 Tactical and two G5 Glock 20 pistols that I have. I asked my wife to video the first mag I shot. Here it is, and I had a stoppage on the second round. The pistol will need to go back to FN, and I will call them Monday.
https://youtu.be/5Y1is-_Bzkc?feature=shared
revchuck38
12-17-2023, 08:49 PM
GJM - Bummer.
I spoke to CJ in FN customer service just now, and he was helpful and wanted to sort this out. They will be looking at this thread and getting back with me.
Archer1440
12-18-2023, 03:59 PM
What in UT makes you want 45 Super or 10mm over 9 or .40?
Ogden and West Valley come to mind….
:D
CJ from FN followed up promptly, and they will be sending a return label.
Ogden and West Valley come to mind….
:D
Oh come on now, Ogden isn't that bad... I consider Ogden proper, a one gun town. They've really cleaned up a lot of the crime problems that were bad about 20 years ago. Anywhere in the Salt Lake Valley is a two gun town for me. :D West Valley, you probably want armor, belt feds, and buddies.
FN sent me the 510 MRD back. They disassembled it, checked everything over, test fired it and were unable to reproduce the problem.
I plan to shoot it some and see. The trigger is quite good and that contributes to being able to shoot it well. Here are a few arrays from this afternoon.
https://youtu.be/AoIw6HvdZZA?feature=shared
A friend loaned my a P320 X Ten Comp 10mm to shoot. I plan to run Underwood hard cast and Lehigh penetrator loads through it and see how it functions. It weighs 29 ounces without a magazine and has a trigger pull just over five pounds. Feels good in my hands, sort of like a Macro on steroids.
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The Sig 10mm mags are marked "made in Italy," presumably by MecGar, which is a good thing.
I just got back from the range, where I had a chance to shoot the new P320 X Ten Comp. I really wasn't expecting all that much.
OMG, I was totally blown away -- it was the best shooting 10mm I have ever shot. Ergonomically, the gun felt good in my hands, and the controls were in the right place. Recoil wise, it is the flattest and softest shooting 10 I have experienced. Felt like a G19 with +P+ ammo.
I shot about 100 rounds consisting of 20 Underwood 200 grain coated hard cast, 20 Underwood 140 Xtreme Penetrators, 20 Cutting Edge 190 grain, and the rest S&B 180 FMJ. No stoppages, and I spent the last part of the session shooting the Hard Cast and Cutting Edge loads, support hand only, limp wristing.
Here is a video showing how flat the gun cycles freestyle, then the limp wristing exercise.
I am definitely getting one unless I learn something bad in the next day or so.
https://youtu.be/BbVcQ4FILZ8?feature=shared
I had a CHPWS 320 plate and EPS around, so I mounted the optic. OEM height low iron sights are just barely useable.
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Sig really beefed up the 10mm model -- look at it compared to a Macro.
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Clusterfrack
01-17-2024, 09:17 PM
I think Cdub_NW had a Sig X10? I can't remember what he thought about it.
I am just back from the range. I mounted the EPS on the X Ten Comp and laser sighted it with the Wheeler. First, I checked zero on paper. This was four shots at 20 yards with the Underwood Lehigh 140 grain penetrator load.
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I gave it two clicks right, and shot ten rounds of the same load freestyle from 20 yards.
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Next I shot ten rounds of the 190 grain Cutting Edge load freestyle at 20 yards. This load hit about an inch lower at 20 yards.
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Historically, I have not experienced good precision with the Macro OEM ported slide, but these groups were very satisfactory, especially for a defensive field pistol likely to be used at close range.
I chronographed the Underwood Xtreme penetrator and 200 grain hard cast load. Didn't do the Cutting Edge as I ran out.
The Underwood Xtreme penetrator is advertised as 1,500 fps. These were the first three shots, and I was surprised by how slow the average velocity was, 1,340 fps.
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I decided to shoot a few more rounds, and they felt noticeably faster. So I shot seven more rounds and they averaged 1,423 fps. Clusterfrack had recently experienced significant variation with two copper bullets in his 10mm, so this got me wondering.
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Then I shot five Underwood coated hard cast, and these didn't have as big a variation in velocity.
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Between my various testing today, I shot 80 rounds, with most of that being one of three penetration oriented loads without issue. The pistol continues to impress me with how soft it shoots, and now I can add that it shoots good groups.
Cdub_NW
01-18-2024, 08:48 PM
I think Cdub_NW had a Sig X10? I can't remember what he thought about it.
Correct, I had one. It ran really well but I went G20 just to remain consistent with the Glock platform. I had zero issues with the X10 and feel it ran really well.
Correct, I had one. It ran really well but I went G20 just to remain consistent with the Glock platform. I had zero issues with the X10 and feel it ran really well.
Just think, if you got into a survival situation with Clusterfrack, you guys could share Glock parts!
Cdub_NW
01-18-2024, 09:28 PM
Just think, if you got into a survival situation with Clusterfrack, you guys could share Glock parts!
Safe to say that we both have backups for our backups at this point.
The X Ten Comp is just a smidge bigger than a P229.
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Virtuosity Student
01-19-2024, 09:02 PM
GJM
Have you played with a P220 in 10mm? Just curious after the above post with the P229.
GJM
Have you played with a P220 in 10mm? Just curious after the above post with the P229.
I have not. I love my 229, but I want more capacity than 8+1 in a bear defense pistol. To rob from Tom Givens, a single stack 10mm is a one bear gun, and I want a three bear gun!
Tony at JM is set up to do holsters for the Sig X Ten C. Between warmer weather coming and holsters, I am starting to get going testing the Sig. Still yet to have a stoppage. I can shoot it better than my other 10mm pistols.
https://youtu.be/gQ7UWXp8UQM?feature=shared
I shot the FN 510 MRD 10m, followed by the 320 X Ten C today, and enjoyed them both.
https://youtu.be/dGrbw2Y2SOk?feature=shared
I am overdue for an update in this thread.
Tony at JM made holsters for my wife and me for the Sig X Ten Comp. The Comp uses a different holster than the X Ten full size, as the Comp adds thickness at the muzzle. The Comp carries surprisingly well AIWB in a George.
Here is the range holster, and we have them on QLS 19 forks.
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I have done belts set up for field and practice, so we can easily switch different holsters onto the Safariland CUBL.
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My pistol is set up with an EPS full size on a CHPWS plate, and the normal height sights barely but do work as reserve sights. Between the comp and the ergos of the X grip, it shoots great, especially for a 10mm. You can see how flat the pistol shoots for 10mm.
https://youtu.be/RwNdVIgn1KM?feature=shared
We like the pistol enough, we got a second one for my wife. We decided to go with a Holosun SCS 320, which mounts directly without a plate. There is a bit of play, so you want to align the optic with the iron sights or a laser sighter as you tighten it down. We have shot the SCS a few times, and dry fired it in varying light conditions, and so far are pleased with the auto adjustment. The display on the 320 model is quite big.
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To date, both pistols have been 100 percent reliable with all ammo tested, but I have always downloaded the fifteen round magazines by one cartridge, as fifteen feels tight. Yesterday, I went to video shooting an array with the 320, and had a stoppage on the first shot. When I looked, I had mistakenly loaded fifteen rounds in a new magazine, and it was locked up tight. You can see that in this video.
https://youtu.be/v9BN_i_ZHc4?feature=shared
With that resolved, the gun functioned fine.
https://youtu.be/of2X1upq7Pw?feature=shared
So far, we are pretty enthusiastic about the X Ten Comp -- reliable, shoots flat and carries small.
LockedBreech
04-23-2024, 02:45 PM
Just wanted to thank you for the time and effort. I'm considering my first 10mm pistol (WOW is that a rabbit hole) and this has been very helpful.
Still on the fence about options, but I think the Sig option does seem very promising. What barrel length is generally needed to get the full performance from full house 10mm loads?
Alternatively, have you shot the M&P options at all? I had seen some murmurs about issues with it when it came out, but don't know the status. Feel free to ignore the question if you'd prefer to avoid the thread drift.
Just wanted to thank you for the time and effort. I'm considering my first 10mm pistol (WOW is that a rabbit hole) and this has been very helpful.
Still on the fence about options, but I think the Sig option does seem very promising. What barrel length is generally needed to get the full performance from full house 10mm loads?
Alternatively, have you shot the M&P options at all? I had seen some murmurs about issues with it when it came out, but don't know the status. Feel free to ignore the question if you'd prefer to avoid the thread drift.
Everything I have read and heard suggests the M&P 10 mm pistols are great with 40 Smith & Wesson power level loads, but not reliable with heavier 10 mm loads. For personal defense around bears and another large animals, the 3.8 barrel on the X 10 comp is, absolutely sufficient with penetrating ammo. The overall length is also compact enough that you can carry it AIWB or in a variety of other holsters. The FN 510 MRD and G5 20 are also worth consideration. Right now, the Sig is my favorite 10mm.
LockedBreech
04-23-2024, 05:08 PM
Everything I have read and heard suggests the M&P 10 mm pistols are great with 40 Smith & Wesson power level loads, but not reliable with heavier 10 mm loads. For personal defense around bears and another large animals, the 3.8 barrel on the X 10 comp is, absolutely sufficient with penetrating ammo. The overall length is also compact enough that you can carry it AIWB or in a variety of other holsters. The FN 510 MRD and G5 20 are also worth consideration. Right now, the Sig is my favorite 10mm.
That helps a great deal, thank you. I've got plenty of good .40s so I don't benefit much by a 10mm I have to limit to .40-level loads. I really like everything about the X-Ten's look and the performance in your shooting videos. Seems quite shootable for the caliber.
Thanks again.
That helps a great deal, thank you. I've got plenty of good .40s so I don't benefit much by a 10mm I have to limit to .40-level loads. I really like everything about the X-Ten's look and the performance in your shooting videos. Seems quite shootable for the caliber.
Thanks again.
The Sig is the best shooting 10mm of my various 10mm pistols.
john c
06-03-2024, 04:49 AM
The Sig is the best shooting 10mm of my various 10mm pistols.
How far ahead of the G20G5 and 510 would you place the Sig? Is it 10% (or more) better? Or just 3%?
Your opinion is highly valued.
Also, what's your current recommendation for 10mm ammo?
How far ahead of the G20G5 and 510 would you place the Sig? Is it 10% (or more) better? Or just 3%?
Your opinion is highly valued.
Also, what's your current recommendation for 10mm ammo?
I think the Glock, FN and Sig 320 X Ten Comp are all good pistols. The reasons I am carrying the Sig this summer are:
1) with the caveat that I download the mags one cartridge, the two Sigs I have are reliable with any load I have tried.
2) the comp makes the Sig the fastest shooting of the three different pistols. Accuracy and reliability have not been negatively affected by the comp.
3) the size is very compact allowing me to AIWB it, or carry it in a field rig.
I am using the Cutting Edge 190 metal solid as my penetrator load in all three, as it has been reliable. I believe Clusterfrack has loaded that same bullet in his Glock. HST as the JHP load.
Rooting around through some 10mm ammo, I found a box of federal trophy bonded. This load was guaranteed to choke a Glock 20 and 29 in just a few rounds. I decided I would try it in the X Ten Comp 10mm. Loading the magazine, the rounds were quite long and seemed tight front to back, so I was concerned. At least through 20 rounds, I am pleased to report that there was not a single stoppage. The X Ten Comp continues to function with every load I have tried with it.
1slow
06-07-2024, 12:56 AM
Thoughts vs. HK USP 45/ .45 Super. Maybe with optic ?
I am deep into HK USP 45 LEM but am curious.
Dave Williams
06-07-2024, 07:44 AM
Rooting around through some 10mm ammo, I found a box of federal trophy bonded. This load was guaranteed to choke a Glock 20 and 29 in just a few rounds. I decided I would try it in the X Ten Comp 10mm. Loading the magazine, the rounds were quite long and seemed tight front to back, so I was concerned. At least through 20 rounds, I am pleased to report that there was not a single stoppage. The X Ten Comp continues to function with every load I have tried with it.
Why on earth would Federal come out with a 10mm round that wouldn't function in a Glock 20?
MickAK
06-08-2024, 12:20 AM
Why on earth would Federal come out with a 10mm round that wouldn't function in a Glock 20?
Function is a relative word.
Pulled out the Gen 5 G20 at the end of our practice session today, as I have been doing once a week or so.
Something my wife figured out, is if you get your hips back, the Glock grip angle isn't a problem even if you have been shooting a Sig or 2011.
https://youtu.be/8Ub8lJFRyek?feature=shared
Lester Polfus
06-20-2024, 06:50 PM
Why on earth would Federal come out with a 10mm round that wouldn't function in a Glock 20?
They were also notorious for failing to expand out of any pistol-length barrel. I guess maybe they were made for all those 10mm lever guns out there.
J.Roy
06-23-2024, 11:20 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240623/a04e9db199f44642e46fcc61e4a2ab49.jpg
So I don’t have the count of GJM yet but here is my woods gun. So far the following list is what I’ve got won’t zero malfunctions.
Glock 20 Gen 5
50- blazer brass 180
50- S&B 180
20 underwood 200
100 gold dot
10- double tap 125
50- S&B 180
20 federal fusion 200
15 40 S&W
10 Double Tap 200 grain hard cast
——-ACRO INSTALL——-
50 Fiocchi Range 180
20 Underwood 200 HC
15 Double Tap 125
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I continue to be impressed with the pair of Sig 320 X Ten Comp pistols I have. I have lost track of how many rounds I have shot, but I am yet to have a stoppage.
I don't look to this person for high level technical shooting, but he does test a bunch of penetrator loads in 10mm pistols. He reports the Sig has run everything.
https://youtu.be/YPnkKjZ_jwA?si=K4-FcbeQThzbosGe
At the end of my practice session today, I shot three rounds on each partial target with the Sig, and in my opinion, this pistol is very soft shooting for a 10mm. I was using S&B 180 which is supposed to be 209 power factor.
https://youtu.be/AX7H-d5deMU?feature=shared
AZtwins
07-06-2024, 11:02 AM
GJM, Maybe I missed it but I'm curious how much velocity loss there is with the 3.8" XTENC? I didn't see velocities for the G20 or FN.
Great info, thanks for your efforts!
I continue to be impressed with what a good shooting pistol the Sig 10mm is. This is eight inch steel at 30 yards in a low 50's rain.
https://youtu.be/5xvaQJywTRQ?feature=shared
revchuck38
07-07-2024, 06:09 AM
^^^^Having been stuck in heat indices over 110, I fantasize about a low 50s rain...:D
^^^^Having been stuck in heat indices over 110, I fantasize about a low 50s rain...:D
How about we split the difference -- 70's and sunshine!
Beendare
07-09-2024, 08:19 PM
Dang,
My G20 is one of my favorite Glocks...but now I want one of those Sigs.
My experience on my once yearly trek to bow hunt the AK islands, judging by the crap in my holster [ belt] at the end of the day...then add all of the rain...how the heck do you run optics in that country on a bear gun?
Dang,
My G20 is one of my favorite Glocks...but now I want one of those Sigs.
My experience on my once yearly trek to bow hunt the AK islands, judging by the crap in my holster [ belt] at the end of the day...then add all of the rain...how the heck do you run optics in that country on a bear gun?
Sealed emitter optic.
Clusterfrack
07-09-2024, 10:05 PM
Sealed emitter optic.
Yep. It rained 1-1.5”/day on my last AK adventure. G20.4/Acro in a Kenai chest rig had no problems. Anti-fog Scope Dope seemed to help.
I decided to shoot the Lipsey's LTT USP FS 45 today. After experimenting some time back when I got it, I decided DA/SA with the decock only plate was my preferred variant. That said, the initial pull is HEAVY.
This is shooting a few arrays, then doing a series of draws to the upper A at ten yards.
https://youtu.be/iMn_a89veEY?feature=shared
I shot some Lost River 45 +P hard cast thru the USP today.
https://youtu.be/bepRAwJPFr8?feature=shared
I shot 30 something more rounds of the Lost River hard cast thru the USP this afternoon, and it functioned fine. I have a bias against hard cast in semi auto pistols, based on past experience, but so far the LR loads run. I shot five rounds, DA only, freestyle from 20 and got this pleasing group.
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I have mixed feelings about the USP. I like the grip better since I liberally applied 3M tape, however none of the trigger options is totally satisfactory. The DA takes a lot of effort, I do not care for the LEM on successive shots, and the thumb safety isn't ergonomic in cocked and locked.
Wes Peart
07-15-2024, 05:13 AM
I shot 30 something more rounds of the Lost River hard cast thru the USP this afternoon, and it functioned fine. I have a bias against hard cast in semi auto pistols, based on past experience, but so far the LR loads run. I shot five rounds, DA only, freestyle from 20 and got this pleasing group.
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I have mixed feelings about the USP. I like the grip better since I liberally applied 3M tape, however none of the trigger options is totally satisfactory. The DA takes a lot of effort, I do not care for the LEM on successive shots, and the thumb safety isn't ergonomic in cocked and locked.
If it's anything like my Mark 23 the hammer strut spring is about 250% more powerful than it needs to be to light off even CCI primers. Stock DA trigger was 15+ pounds.
The easy button to a nice DA/SA trigger was to cut off a couple coils off on the hammer spring, VASTLY improved the trigger. Still dents the hell out of any primer. A hammer spring is about 6 bucks, might be worth buying one to experiment.
If it's anything like my Mark 23 the hammer strut spring is about 250% more powerful than it needs to be to light off even CCI primers. Stock DA trigger was 15+ pounds.
The easy button to a nice DA/SA trigger was to cut off a couple coils off on the hammer spring, VASTLY improved the trigger. Still dents the hell out of any primer. A hammer spring is about 6 bucks, might be worth buying one to experiment.
This USP has a Langdon trigger job, so I am reluctant to mess with that.
I shot five rounds of the Cutting Edge 190 solid in a G5 20 today, to verify zero in this pistol. I called the slightly high shot which spoiled an otherwise nice group.
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Here is some array shooting with that pistol.
https://youtu.be/4UgCb2v-LSQ?feature=shared
Just FYI:
KKM is now offering their G20 barrels for the G20 Gen 5, including the .40 cal conversion barrel and the “Roland special” style barrel with comp.
GJM, what is your current chosen 10mm load for dangerous game?
GJM, what is your current chosen 10mm load for dangerous game?
Cutting Edge 190 grain (loaded ammo) based on reliability in different pistols (Glock, Sig and FN), bullet shape and construction.
Sensei
07-23-2024, 06:06 AM
I shot 30 something more rounds of the Lost River hard cast thru the USP this afternoon, and it functioned fine. I have a bias against hard cast in semi auto pistols, based on past experience, but so far the LR loads run. I shot five rounds, DA only, freestyle from 20 and got this pleasing group.
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I have mixed feelings about the USP. I like the grip better since I liberally applied 3M tape, however none of the trigger options is totally satisfactory. The DA takes a lot of effort, I do not care for the LEM on successive shots, and the thumb safety isn't ergonomic in cocked and locked.
Sweet Jesus. You might be one of the few people who clears a Dot Torture at 20 yards.
I would struggle to produce that group with a SA P226 X-Five or semi-custom 1911 fired from a rest; I can’t imagine getting to that precision and accuracy - no matter how much practice.
I shot 30 something more rounds of the Lost River hard cast thru the USP this afternoon, and it functioned fine. I have a bias against hard cast in semi auto pistols, based on past experience, but so far the LR loads run. I shot five rounds, DA only, freestyle from 20 and got this pleasing group.
121040
I have mixed feelings about the USP. I like the grip better since I liberally applied 3M tape, however none of the trigger options is totally satisfactory. The DA takes a lot of effort, I do not care for the LEM on successive shots, and the thumb safety isn't ergonomic in cocked and locked.
Lazy Wolf Guns has a replacement thumb safety for the USP with an lowered and extended lever designed to address the cocked and locked ergonomics issue.
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1slow
07-23-2024, 12:38 PM
Cannot find the HK USP LONE WOLF LOWERED SAFETY.
HCM is an enabler. The comp on the 320 X Ten has been utterly reliable. I wonder how that KKM would work on the G20? Also interested in thoughts on their 4.6 inch replacement barrel versus OEM in terms of reliability. My OEM barrel shoots great.
Beendare
07-24-2024, 09:14 AM
HCM is an enabler. The comp on the 320 X Ten has been utterly reliable. I wonder how that KKM would work on the G20? Also interested in thoughts on their 4.6 inch replacement barrel versus OEM in terms of reliability. My OEM barrel shoots great.
Yeah, I wonder too….but have a guess.
Fwiw, all of my bowhunt buddies run a G20 as a G Bear backup. Many have modded their pistols( aftermkt. barrels, springs) only to have them not function perfectly.
Forgive me as its been years and I cannot remember the exact chamber spec but the LW and KKM after market barrels I checked had tighter chambers vs the stock Glock. As i recall, its only a couple thousanths difference….but its enough in some cases to not feed correctly in the tighter chambers. Another I’ve seen needed the feed ramp polished.
My bone stock G20 is 100% with Underwood and Double Tap 200g hard cast.
You have proven these modded pistols can work….just saying some don’t.
——-
Not 10mm…but sometimes I bring my 9mm Shield with hard cast as a lighter/ slimmer alternative and shooting CH ammo in that I had some FTF’s yesterday, specifically not going into battery. Admittedly, it could be operator error as I have packed that pistol through thick brush, bad weather, etc. and it hasn’t seen a cleaning in probably 2 years.
Point is; these tests you are doing GJM are valuable feedback…a must do for a bear backup pistol.
As to mods, my 320 and FN are bone stock, and my G20 is stock other than Boresight stippling. I am curious about the KKM comp for the G20, as it might make for more reliability, by taming some slide speed. Will need to test that.
Lately, I have been treating the G5 20 like a big 19, and doing the same drills I do with the 19 with the 20. This is shooting some arrays, and then doing draws to the upper A in the head box at ten yards.
https://youtu.be/dggEKAaoOvY?feature=shared
RealSelf
07-29-2024, 03:53 AM
Cannot find the HK USP LONE WOLF LOWERED SAFETY.
Likely does not exist as a production item currently, picture is a prototype from LWG Instagram recently. May take a while I'd imagine to bring something like this to market as a small company.
LockedBreech
07-29-2024, 09:20 AM
As to mods, my 320 and FN are bone stock, and my G20 is stock other than Boresight stippling. I am curious about the KKM comp for the G20, as it might make for more reliability, by taming some slide speed. Will need to test that.
Lately, I have been treating the G5 20 like a big 19, and doing the same drills I do with the 19 with the 20. This is shooting some arrays, and then doing draws to the upper A in the head box at ten yards.
https://youtu.be/dggEKAaoOvY?feature=shared
I think you shoot 10mm faster than I shoot 9mm.
11B10
07-29-2024, 09:37 AM
Lazy Wolf Guns has a replacement thumb safety for the USP with an lowered and extended lever designed to address the cocked and locked ergonomics issue.
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Here I go again, but I'm "thread drifting with a purpose" this time.
I have nowhere near the experience you possess, but I have owned two H&K's with the LEM trigger and would really appreciate your elaborating on your statement about that system.
Thanks, GJM - very much appreciated!
Here I go again, but I'm "thread drifting with a purpose" this time.
I have nowhere near the experience you possess, but I have owned two H&K's with the LEM trigger and would really appreciate your elaborating on your statement about that system.
Thanks, GJM - very much appreciated!
There’s not much to elaborate.
HKS are not known for their great triggers or ergonomics. But they have other attributes like mechanical accuracy, and durability /reliability.
One of the options to mitigate this with the USP series (other than custom trigger work is to simply run the gun cocked and locked like a 1911. However, as GJM pointed out in the post that I quoted, The location of the manual safety is not ergonomic in the way that something like a 1911 is. It’s a little bit high and far back IME. Hence, my interest in the modified safety from lazy Wolf.
My views on the LEM are pretty well-known. My agency issued LEM guns for about a decade, and I carried one exclusively for about eight years. The LEM is an attempt to solve a software problem with a hardware solution for institutional users. The concept was based on institutional studies, indicating that the distance of trigger travel was more significant than trigger pull weight in mitigating unintentional discharges.
As a late PF member (LSP972) once stated about the SIG DAK (the gun we replaced the LEM with), the LEM sucks all the joy out of shooting an HK. You can make it work if you are willing to only shoot LEM guns and you are willing to practice with them or double action revolvers regularly , But they are still sub optimal in terms of performance. Even compared to something like a stock Glock trigger.
1slow
07-29-2024, 10:01 AM
Here I go again, but I'm "thread drifting with a purpose" this time.
I have nowhere near the experience you possess, but I have owned two H&K's with the LEM trigger and would really appreciate your elaborating on your statement about that system.
Thanks, GJM - very much appreciated!
What I have noticed with HK USP with safeties is that it is hard to get a full shooting grip with your thumb on the safety.
On the draw, I want a full hard shooting grip on the pistol with thumb on top of safety ready to go off safe when on target.
This is why I followed GJM’s path and went LEM.
11B10
07-29-2024, 12:49 PM
HCM, 1Slow - thanks for once again answering not only what I intended, but giving me more than I asked for. HCM, you really hit a nerve by mentioning LSP972.
He took his personal time to answer - and more than answer - teach...me so many things, especially all things revolver/DA-SA. He stoked my interest, and later ownership of, several j-frames. At the time, I thought he was an anomaly. Not so - many others here have contributed their knowledge and their precious time - to my 'education.' LSP972 was special indeed.
I shot the G5 20 again today. I found an old box of Federal Hydra Shok 180 grain, and shot one freestyle group at 20 yards with it.
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Since I think support hand shooting is an important skill for a field pistol, I did some practice with the G5 20 on this today. This is an eight inch steel at 18 yards. I need to fully extend my arm shooting one hand, to get my best results.
https://youtu.be/dRMNgv2Cgds?feature=shared
11B10
07-30-2024, 08:59 AM
I shot the G5 20 again today. I found an old box of Federal Hydra Shok 180 grain, and shot one freestyle group at 20 yards with it.
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Since I think support hand shooting is an important skill for a field pistol, I did some practice with the G5 20 on this today. This is an eight inch steel at 18 yards. I need to fully extend my arm shooting one hand, to get my best results.
https://youtu.be/dRMNgv2Cgds?feature=shared
GJM, your "best results" with the support hand are terrific + you make an excellent point about support hand shooting being an important skill. To that I would add, a potentially life-saving skill.
Unlike freestyle where you can grip hard with your support hand, and less hard with your strong hand to improve trigger control, the challenge is one arm needs to do both the grip and trigger pulling. By fully extending, and using skeleton instead of muscle, I can back off the pressure with my firing hand, and still have the gun supported. I see people bending their arm, and gripping hard, shooting one hand, and that doesn't work as well for me.
PMM has a comp for the FN 510:
https://www.parkermountainmachine.com/product/pmm-ultra-compensator-for-fn-510/
msstate56
08-09-2024, 10:44 PM
I am overdue for an update in this thread.
Tony at JM made holsters for my wife and me for the Sig X Ten Comp. The Comp uses a different holster than the X Ten full size, as the Comp adds thickness at the muzzle. The Comp carries surprisingly well AIWB in a George.
Here is the range holster, and we have them on QLS 19 forks.
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116757
I have done belts set up for field and practice, so we can easily switch different holsters onto the Safariland CUBL.
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My pistol is set up with an EPS full size on a CHPWS plate, and the normal height sights barely but do work as reserve sights. Between the comp and the ergos of the X grip, it shoots great, especially for a 10mm. You can see how flat the pistol shoots for 10mm.
https://youtu.be/RwNdVIgn1KM?feature=shared
We like the pistol enough, we got a second one for my wife. We decided to go with a Holosun SCS 320, which mounts directly without a plate. There is a bit of play, so you want to align the optic with the iron sights or a laser sighter as you tighten it down. We have shot the SCS a few times, and dry fired it in varying light conditions, and so far are pleased with the auto adjustment. The display on the 320 model is quite big.
116759
To date, both pistols have been 100 percent reliable with all ammo tested, but I have always downloaded the fifteen round magazines by one cartridge, as fifteen feels tight. Yesterday, I went to video shooting an array with the 320, and had a stoppage on the first shot. When I looked, I had mistakenly loaded fifteen rounds in a new magazine, and it was locked up tight. You can see that in this video.
https://youtu.be/v9BN_i_ZHc4?feature=shared
With that resolved, the gun functioned fine.
https://youtu.be/of2X1upq7Pw?feature=shared
So far, we are pretty enthusiastic about the X Ten Comp -- reliable, shoots flat and carries small.
Does anyone have any similar results with the regular X Ten, or is this fantastic reliability only with the COMP version?
If not carrying AIWB, I like some retention on the field holster, but there does not appear to be a suitable red dot ALS option for the Glock 20. This caused me to try a Safariland GLS. I put it on a QLS fork and started working with it today. I really liked it, and frankly felt a lot more comfortable from the first few draws than after a decade or more with the ALS. Here is the holster:
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These are my first draws, to the head box on a USPSA target at seven yards. My draw smooths out after a few draws, as I get more confidence with the holster.
https://youtu.be/T1uERQ1Bm4M?feature=shared
Then I did draws and pairs to a skunk turtle target at 20 yards. I don't really detect and speed deficit compared to an open top Comp Tac Int'l style holster.
https://youtu.be/XhkWl_TlR98?feature=shared
The neat thing about this holster is it works with the G19, 17, G5 23 and G20 at a cost under $60.
msstate56
08-15-2024, 09:20 PM
If not carrying AIWB, I like some retention on the field holster, but there does not appear to be a suitable red dot ALS option for the Glock 20. This caused me to try a Safariland GLS. I put it on a QLS fork and started working with it today. I really liked it, and frankly felt a lot more comfortable from the first few draws than after a decade or more with the ALS. Here is the holster:
122343
122344
These are my first draws, to the head box on a USPSA target at seven yards. My draw smooths out after a few draws, as I get more confidence with the holster.
https://youtu.be/T1uERQ1Bm4M?feature=shared
Then I did draws and pairs to a skunk turtle target at 20 yards. I don't really detect and speed deficit compared to an open top Comp Tac Int'l style holster.
https://youtu.be/XhkWl_TlR98?feature=shared
The neat thing about this holster is it works with the G19, 17, G5 23 and G20 at a cost under $60.
No offense, but I was using the GLS as a field holster at least as early as ‘21. Back before it was cool I guess 😁
The GLS is surprisingly quick. I noticed no difference in draw speed using a GLS vs a standard friction fit holster as well. They are quite versatile and inexpensive. I think I have 5 or 6 of them.
msstate56
08-15-2024, 09:30 PM
Back to field pistols- I’ve been very pleased with the G9 145 grain 10mm woodsman load. I shot 40 rounds recently out of a Gen 4, G20. All factory springs. With a 509t, it was easily keeping all rounds in the X of a B8 at 25 yards. I had multiple one ragged hole groups while zeroing the dot. Recoil was very mild. Averaged 1,327 fps. Box says 1,400 fps for a G20, but I’m ok with the trade off for a very controllable load. It’s obviously way too expensive for hundreds of rounds of testing, but after 80-100 rounds I think I’ll be satisfied. This Gen 4 G20 has been very reliable with run of the mill 10mm FMJ on up to 140 Underwood XP. It’s had issues with heavy hard cast like lots of others. But with G9 or Underwood XP, I’m very satisfied.
Back to field pistols- I’ve been very pleased with the G9 145 grain 10mm woodsman load. I shot 40 rounds recently out of a Gen 4, G20. All factory springs. With a 509t, it was easily keeping all rounds in the X of a B8 at 25 yards. I had multiple one ragged hole groups while zeroing the dot. Recoil was very mild. Averaged 1,327 fps. Box says 1,400 fps for a G20, but I’m ok with the trade off for a very controllable load. It’s obviously way too expensive for hundreds of rounds of testing, but after 80-100 rounds I think I’ll be satisfied. This Gen 4 G20 has been very reliable with run of the mill 10mm FMJ on up to 140 Underwood XP. It’s had issues with heavy hard cast like lots of others. But with G9 or Underwood XP, I’m very satisfied.
Thanks for the G9 10mm report. I have some in my stash, but unlike the G9 9mm load that I have shot a bunch of, I haven't shot much of that 10mm load.
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msstate56
08-15-2024, 09:46 PM
Thanks for the G9 10mm report. I have some in my stash, but unlike the G9 9mm load that I have shot a bunch of, I haven't shot much of that 10mm load.
122356
Underwood 140 XP averaged 1,443 fps. It had substantially more recoil than the G9. I also had some strange flyers with the Underwood. G9 shoots like a laser beam. This is the only target pic I took, but most of the G9 groups were better. You can see the 2 outliers with the XP.
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I also use the GLS and so does Clusterfrack I think!
LockedBreech
08-23-2024, 01:09 PM
After deep consideration of the FN, Sig, Glock, and S&W options for the past few years, I used my GSSF coupon on a G20G5 MOS today.
The primary reasons/considerations:
1.) Familiar manual of arms and accessory availability (I also have a G17G5 MOS and G22G5 MOS);
2.) It was way more comfortable in my hands than I thought it would be. I always expected it to be a giant brick, but I forget that I have big hands. It's a very comfortable pistol to me, doesn't feel significantly different from my G22G5 MOS);
3.) Less reported issues than the M&P (though even the M&P doesn't have many, I realize) and more of a track record than the FN or Sig options; and
4.) Cost. With my GSSF coupon it was $489. That's insane.
Why a 10mm right now? Camping and fishing near some beaver ponds last week, my brother and I ran across a rather large moose, that fortunately was in a good mood and didn't want anything to do with us. I had my G22G5 on me, but I did find myself wishing it was a 10mm at the time. Which is a good enough reason to trial a new field pistol.
I look forward to getting some range time on my first 10mm and will report back any positive or negative feedback.
After deep consideration of the FN, Sig, Glock, and S&W options for the past few years, I used my GSSF coupon on a G20G5 MOS today.
The primary reasons/considerations:
1.) Familiar manual of arms and accessory availability (I also have a G17G5 MOS and G22G5 MOS);
2.) It was way more comfortable in my hands than I thought it would be. I always expected it to be a giant brick, but I forget that I have big hands. It's a very comfortable pistol to me, doesn't feel significantly different from my G22G5 MOS);
3.) Less reported issues than the M&P (though even the M&P doesn't have many, I realize) and more of a track record than the FN or Sig options; and
4.) Cost. With my GSSF coupon it was $489. That's insane.
Why a 10mm right now? Camping and fishing near some beaver ponds last week, my brother and I ran across a rather large moose, that fortunately was in a good mood and didn't want anything to do with us. I had my G22G5 on me, but I did find myself wishing it was a 10mm at the time. Which is a good enough reason to trial a new field pistol.
I look forward to getting some range time on my first 10mm and will report back any positive or negative feedback.
You putting an optic on it?
LockedBreech
08-23-2024, 04:24 PM
You putting an optic on it?
Tentatively, no, given the intended purpose. If so, it would be one of the more rugged/weatherproofed/sealed ones.
Honestly, I just need more time on optics to get comfortable. No substitute for practice and I just don't have enough of that yet. My sole optic at this point is the Deltapoint Pro I have on my G17G5, and I can't ever seem to find the damn dot when presenting. No doubt that's a me/training/reflexively looking for the front sight issue, not an issue with the DPP.
I do try to get most of my pistols optics-ready these days if it's available at a reasonable cost uptick. Having the option is never bad.
J.Roy
09-11-2024, 04:50 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240911/ed9fd0f588914a2940982b4671527c50.jpg
Glock 20 Gen 5
50- blazer brass 180
50- S&B 180
20 underwood 200
100 gold dot
10- double tap 125
50- S&B 180
20 federal fusion 200
15 40 S&W
10 Double Tap 200 grain hard cast
——-ACRO INSTALL——-
50 Fiocchi Range 180
20 Underwood 200 HC
15 Double Tap 125
50 Blazer brass
50 S&B 180
15 Federal Fusion 200
20 Hornaday 180 XTP
10 Underwood 200 XTP
——555 To date ——
Running strong. I’m very happy with this Gen 5 20
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Tell us about that magazine?
titsonritz
09-12-2024, 07:59 PM
I’m holding out for a G40 Gen 5.
J.Roy
09-13-2024, 09:27 PM
Tell us about that magazine?
It’s a SLR rifle works +5. It comes with a spring and their follower.
The extension feels well made and was easy to install. Currently it’s just for range and pictures till I run some rounds through it. I may up the spring to a +10%
I also have a Arrendondo +5 that would not run. The follower kept getting hung up internally. I requested another follower from SLR and have not had any issues since
21 rounds of G9 woodsman is pretty formidable!
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J.Roy
09-13-2024, 09:28 PM
I’m holding out for a G40 Gen 5.
My hope is for the same. Then I’ll have a hunting rig and a carry rig.
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J.Roy
09-18-2024, 07:35 PM
First failure today.
50 rounds of S&B 180 FMJ
20 rounds Underwood 200 grain Hardcast weak hand only shooting using the SLR +5 extension. Loaded 5 at a time. First mag last round slide lock with one in mag.
Could have been a poor grip on my end hitting the slide stop. Or I suppose limp wrist.
Had to return to work so I cut testing short
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Clusterfrack
09-18-2024, 07:40 PM
First failure today.
50 rounds of S&B 180 FMJ
20 rounds Underwood 200 grain Hardcast weak hand only shooting using the SLR +5 extension. Loaded 5 at a time. First mag last round slide lock with one in mag.
Could have been a poor grip on my end hitting the slide stop. Or I suppose limp wrist.
Limp wrist isn't likely to cause activation of the slide stop (unless the SS spring is broken). I'd put money on your hand hitting it.
First failure today.
50 rounds of S&B 180 FMJ
20 rounds Underwood 200 grain Hardcast weak hand only shooting using the SLR +5 extension. Loaded 5 at a time. First mag last round slide lock with one in mag.
Could have been a poor grip on my end hitting the slide stop. Or I suppose limp wrist.
Had to return to work so I cut testing short
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As reported earlier, I had the problem of my strong thumb contacting the slide stop shooting freestyle with heavy loads. I installed the smaller backstrap, and that seemed to cure it, although I didn’t like how that caused me to not get as high a grip on the pistol and removed it. Have not seen the problem lately, altghough I am not shooting hard cast in it. Given you already have a backstrap installed, I am not sure about the cause of this.
J.Roy
09-18-2024, 10:11 PM
As reported earlier, I had the problem of my strong thumb contacting the slide stop shooting freestyle with heavy loads. I installed the smaller backstrap, and that seemed to cure it, although I didn’t like how that caused me to not get as high a grip on the pistol and removed it. Have not seen the problem lately, altghough I am not shooting hard cast in it. Given you already have a backstrap installed, I am not sure about the cause of this.
I’m leaning towards sloppy grip and contact from trigger finger knuckle area.
I’m back on the range next Wed I’ll try again. But with G9 and the stock mag. I’m really enjoying shooting this. Ran it back to 100 today to play with the dot. Good times.
Austin Sibley
09-19-2024, 12:42 PM
Tell us about that magazine?
It’s a SLR rifle works +5. It comes with a spring and their follower.
The extension feels well made and was easy to install. Currently it’s just for range and pictures till I run some rounds through it. I may up the spring to a +10%
I have four of these and didn't have good experiences using SLR's included follower. Rounds were getting hung up and nose diving. This was across several of the mags and both a gen 4 G20 and G40 which are well vetted.
I replaced the followers with the OEM Glock parts and the issue disappeared.
Note this was using gen 4 10mm mags. I don't own any gen 5 10mm mags to try them with, and it's possible there's some miniscule differences that make the SLR followers work better with newer vs older mags.
With the use of OEM followers I like these extensions. After replacing the followers I now have ~800 rounds spread across the four mags I have with these, and they've been reliable so far.
Also of note- with pretty warm handloads and a 22lb recoil spring, I've had no issues with the slide outrunning the mag's feeding, which I figure is always a consideration when you start dicking with a 10mm glock's mag spring and use spicy loads.
Tannhauser
09-30-2024, 03:17 PM
I finished this thread over the weekend.
Extremely interesting and useful read, particularly as I’m working through some reliability issues with a M&P 10mm.
J.Roy
10-07-2024, 03:55 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241007/c803ced34568b0fe8dd49401fdb92ee7.jpeg
Testing continues.
I’ve had a total of 3 failures so far in around 600*\- rounds.
Underwood 200 support hand only slide lock
G9 woodsman support hand
Underwood 200 nose down in mag. I think 2/3 can be accounted for by my grip. The third showed the front of the bullet nosed into front of mag. Last round
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241007/c803ced34568b0fe8dd49401fdb92ee7.jpeg
Testing continues.
I’ve had a total of 3 failures so far in around 600*\- rounds.
Underwood 200 support hand only slide lock
G9 woodsman support hand
Underwood 200 nose down in mag. I think 2/3 can be accounted for by my grip. The third showed the front of the bullet nosed into front of mag. Last round
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for your contributions to this thread. What can be frustrating is how many rounds it takes to see malfunctions, and a pattern in malfunctions. The compromised grip has generally been where the rubber meets the road in my testing.
Clusterfrack
10-07-2024, 05:09 PM
Underwood 200 nose down in mag. I think 2/3 can be accounted for by my grip. The third showed the front of the bullet nosed into front of mag. Last round
As GJM, said thanks for the hard work and testing. I’ve found that mag spring tension is the most important factor in the G20. As springs break in, FTFeed malfunctions start happening on the last few rounds, and with compromised grip. The 460Rowland mag springs have solved that for me and several others.
As GJM, said thanks for the hard work and testing. I’ve found that mag spring tension is the most important factor in the G20. As springs break in, FTFeed malfunctions start happening on the last few rounds, and with compromised grip. The 460Rowland mag springs have solved that for me and several others.
Please elaborate on "break in" -- do you mean through compression cycles (loading/unloading) or staying loaded? If the latter, would having three new mags reserved for field use be an alternative?
Clusterfrack
10-07-2024, 05:45 PM
Please elaborate on "break in" -- do you mean through compression cycles (loading/unloading) or staying loaded? If the latter, would having three new mags reserved for field use be an alternative?
Compression cycles. I doubt staying loaded decreases the spring rate by that much. That's an interesting idea about using fresh mags/mag springs. The 460R springs are next level stiff though--much thicker wire than OEM.
J.Roy
10-07-2024, 06:19 PM
As GJM, said thanks for the hard work and testing. I’ve found that mag spring tension is the most important factor in the G20. As springs break in, FTFeed malfunctions start happening on the last few rounds, and with compromised grip. The 460Rowland mag springs have solved that for me and several others.
I will look into some of these. Thank you
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Compression cycles. I doubt staying loaded decreases the spring rate by that much. That's an interesting idea about using fresh mags/mag springs. The 460R springs are next level stiff though--much thicker wire than OEM.
I have three new G20 mags, two loaded with Cutting Edge solids and the third with Critical Duty, that stay with the pistol and are unused unless that pistol needed to be shot for real. My practice mags are separate.
They even have special baseplates, so I can tell those mags apart.
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Clusterfrack
10-07-2024, 06:56 PM
They even have special baseplates, so I can tell those mags apart.
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241007/f31434d9503bf83c70e3da90f14063fa.jpg
These now hold 14+1 after break in.
J.Roy
10-07-2024, 09:33 PM
Clusterfrack https://460rowland.com/product/460-rowland-glock-extra-power-mag-spring/
These?
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Clusterfrack
10-07-2024, 10:24 PM
Clusterfrack https://460rowland.com/product/460-rowland-glock-extra-power-mag-spring/
These?
Yes. I also use these shims:
https://460rowland.com/product/additional-information-add-ons-no-compensator-ss-compensator/
J.Roy
10-08-2024, 03:28 PM
Took it out today for further. Overall I’m very happy with the performance. I am however up to 4 failures in close to 700.
I shoot a fair quanity of the Fiocchi range dynamics which is a 180 grain at 1250.
Today I grabbed the extended mag and forgot my standard mags. So all rounds were from the SLR +5
Below is a pic of the failure I most common get when it’s not a slide lock bump
20 200 fusion
5 UW 200 HC
10 G9 outdoor WHO 1 FTF
10 G9 Outdoor SHO
5 G9 2 hand
50 Fiocchi Range (1250FPs)
- 10 2 hand
- 30 Strong only 1 Ftf 1/2 into battery
- 10 WHO
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241008/11ebdfc21d89850a16b58cccc52def38.jpg
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J.Roy
10-08-2024, 03:35 PM
Sorry for 2 posts but EDIT to add.
I’m at 5 failures with the g20 and have had 1 FTF in my new G45 with less rounds.
As of this point I still trust and carry both
G45 ACRO
50 blazer
40 UW 147 HC
40 G9 124
50 GD 124+p
100 Misc 1 ftf on gold dot
10 G9
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Navin Johnson
10-08-2024, 04:38 PM
Took it out today for further. Overall I’m very happy with the performance. I am however up to 4 failures in close to 700.
I shoot a fair quanity of the Fiocchi range dynamics which is a 180 grain at 1250.
Today I grabbed the extended mag and forgot my standard mags. So all rounds were from the SLR +5
Below is a pic of the failure I most common get when it’s not a slide lock bump
20 200 fusion
5 UW 200 HC
10 G9 outdoor WHO 1 FTF
10 G9 Outdoor SHO
5 G9 2 hand
50 Fiocchi Range (1250FPs)
- 10 2 hand
- 30 Strong only 1 Ftf 1/2 into battery
- 10 WHO
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241008/11ebdfc21d89850a16b58cccc52def38.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Any failures with Factory stock magazines?
Any failures with the federal or Hornady using factory stock magazines?
Thanks
J.Roy
10-08-2024, 05:12 PM
No failures with regular round nose hunting /SD type ammo.
All failures with flat bullets to include the one with FMJ
2FTF with factory mag and Hardcast
ETA———-
4/5 failures are weak hand only.
No failures 2 handed
1 failure strong hand only today at the end of my shooting.
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What would the failure rate be if it was failures/divided by left or right hand only?
J.Roy
10-08-2024, 05:23 PM
What would the failure rate be if it was failures/divided by left or right hand only?
Was fighting with Taptalk to add the above and you beat me. See edit gun porn for your troubles 124867
msstate56
10-09-2024, 06:46 PM
Unfortunately I've begun to have multiple failures in my G20 and G41. With 200 grain HC in the G20, it functions fine with a solid two hand grip, but had at least 1 fail to feed per magazine through 50 rounds of single hand only. The G41 failed to feed 50% of the time single hand only with 250 grain HC. I believe that using the solutions CF has shown would fix the problems, at least in the G20. However, I've lost faith in these pistols with "bear appropriate loads." I don't want to waste anymore money, parts or ammo trying to get them to work. I'm moving on to a S&W 629 and or 686 with LRAC "Keith" loads. It will at least function for 6 rounds with a compromised grip. I may revisit this next summer, but there's not enough time to be satisfied with a solution before my AK trip at the end of the month.
Clusterfrack
10-09-2024, 08:22 PM
I hate being proved right… ;)
460Rowland has the cheap fix, and I’ve tested nuclear hardcast loads that are so hot I don’t use them.
Unfortunately I've begun to have multiple failures in my G20 and G41. With 200 grain HC in the G20, it functions fine with a solid two hand grip, but had at least 1 fail to feed per magazine through 50 rounds of single hand only. The G41 failed to feed 50% of the time single hand only with 250 grain HC. I believe that using the solutions CF has shown would fix the problems, at least in the G20. However, I've lost faith in these pistols with "bear appropriate loads." I don't want to waste anymore money, parts or ammo trying to get them to work. I'm moving on to a S&W 629 and or 686 with LRAC "Keith" loads. It will at least function for 6 rounds with a compromised grip. I may revisit this next summer, but there's not enough time to be satisfied with a solution before my AK trip at the end of the month.
I did a bunch of testing one hand with the G5 20, 320 X Ten C and FN 510 with the Cutting Edge penetrator load and it functioned in everything.
Velo Dog
10-16-2024, 05:42 PM
New dangerous game loadings from Hornady
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/10mm-auto-200-gr-dgh-backcountry-defense#!/
revchuck38
10-16-2024, 06:12 PM
New dangerous game loadings from Hornady
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/10mm-auto-200-gr-dgh-backcountry-defense#!/
<thread drift>
They're claiming 1620 fps from a 4" barrel with a 240-grain bullet in a .44 Magnum. My hand hurts just reading that.
</thread drift>
New dangerous game loadings from Hornady
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/10mm-auto-200-gr-dgh-backcountry-defense#!/
It is a little hot for a 200 grain, so I hope it proves reliable in our polymer 10 mm pistols.
PS: I like that they offer it in 9mm.
eric0311
10-17-2024, 08:04 AM
It is a little hot for a 200 grain, so I hope it proves reliable in our polymer 10 mm pistols.
PS: I like that they offer it in 9mm.
Hopefully the Wizards at the Hornady plant in Grand Island tested the ever-living heck out of this 200 grain round, in all shapes and sizes of 10 mil. Didn’t member LostRiver say the magic velocity zone for reliability out of a pistol (for 10mil) is 1150-1180ish fps?
It is a little hot for a 200 grain, so I hope it proves reliable in our polymer 10 mm pistols.
PS: I like that they offer it in 9mm.
I couldn’t find the 9mm on their site, am I just dumb?
I couldn’t find the 9mm on their site, am I just dumb?
I was just going off of what their ad said.
125219
Navin Johnson
10-17-2024, 08:48 AM
I couldn’t find the 9mm on their site, am I just dumb?
second paragraph in linked article
second paragraph in linked article
And GJM thanks- I’d been trying to find it on their site to see specs, didn’t occur to me that not all the offerings were listed on the site yet.
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/backcountry-defense#!/
J.Roy
10-17-2024, 08:58 AM
I’m hoping that 200@ 1160 runs well. The bullet profile looks like it would feed well. Asked my local shop to try and get some when available.
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J.Roy
10-29-2024, 08:18 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241030/07631837b0cb7670f5c53afafdee8129.jpg
WhooHooooo testing resumes
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Rex G
10-30-2024, 11:18 AM
This has been an interesting read. I started with the recent few pages, then went to the beginning, and am up to page 25. I will be looking for that new Hornady Back Country Defense ammo to appear at my usual ammo source, though, well, 9mm. O.M.A.; Old Man’s Ammo. ;)
Clusterfrack
11-01-2024, 03:14 PM
I’m hoping that 200@ 1160 runs well. The bullet profile looks like it would feed well. Asked my local shop to try and get some when available.
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My testing suggested that bullet profile was not the primary cause of malfunctions. If any load is hot and heavy, slide velocity may outrun the ability of the magazine spring to deliver the next round. I’m guessing that a rounder profile bullet will make that happen less frequently, but will be a bandaid that will eventually fall off.
Eg. XTP 200gr malfunctioned when loaded hot.
1slow
02-01-2025, 09:37 PM
GJM please , still happy with Sig 320 X10 comp ?
Thoughts on that vs. Lipseys HK USP 45 with optic ?
Thanks.
Shotgun
02-01-2025, 10:23 PM
This has been an interesting read. I started with the recent few pages, then went to the beginning, and am up to page 25. I will be looking for that new Hornady Back Country Defense ammo to appear at my usual ammo source, though, well, 9mm. O.M.A.; Old Man’s Ammo. ;)
It's fun isn't it. We don't have a lot of Grizzer bears to worry about here in Dallas, or down in SE Texas where you are. Nevertheless, I enjoy reading these threads. We essentially have our own outdoor magazine going here in many PF threads. However, we do not have to wait a month for new content Heck, we even have our own photography thread for our cover art. This place is better than (any assorted gun magazine found in the rack at your local bookstore), etc., and more current.
Shotgun
02-01-2025, 10:27 PM
GJM please , still happy with Sig 320 X10 comp ?
Thoughts on that vs. Lipseys HK USP 45 with optic ?
Thanks.
Interested in GJM's response. Also, why doesn't anyone talk about .460 Rowland?
GJM please , still happy with Sig 320 X10 comp ?
Thoughts on that vs. Lipseys HK USP 45 with optic ?
Thanks.
I haven't had a single malfunction in either of my Sig 10mm Comp pistols. I, of course, trust the USP more, but the Sig is easier to shoot and 10mm may penetrate better than .45 Super.
1slow
02-02-2025, 01:59 AM
Thank you.
Clusterfrack
02-02-2025, 11:02 AM
...Also, why doesn't anyone talk about .460 Rowland?
I can't answer for anyone else but here's why I wouldn't use that caliber:
wildcat calibers are a hassle
I want to shoot a lot of rounds to test reliability, and practice for a life safety event
I don't think it's necessary--10mm with a good bullet is sufficient
I do talk about .460 Rowland because they are the only manufacturers of the very heavy G20 magazine springs (https://460rowland.com/product/460-rowland-glock-extra-power-mag-spring/) and shims (https://460rowland.com/product/additional-information-add-ons-no-compensator-ss-compensator/) that appear to prevent malfunctions.
1slow
02-09-2025, 12:07 AM
As a side issue, if you were going to use the 10mm as a woods gun and then as a CCW pistol, is there any really good 10mm ammo for defense against criminal attackers ?
As a side issue, if you were going to use the 10mm as a woods gun and then as a CCW pistol, is there any really good 10mm ammo for defense against criminal attackers ?
Not sure about "really good," but this HST is what I have for JHP load.
https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/premium-personal-defense/personal-defense-hst/11-P10HST1S.html
Clusterfrack
02-09-2025, 11:58 AM
As a side issue, if you were going to use the 10mm as a woods gun and then as a CCW pistol, is there any really good 10mm ammo for defense against criminal attackers ?
Not sure about "really good," but this HST is what I have for JHP load.
https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/premium-personal-defense/personal-defense-hst/11-P10HST1S.html
HST 200gr is what I use as well. ~1100fps from my G20.4. When I'm staying in a town and hiking in brown bear country, I keep a HST round in the chamber and just swap mags between HST and solid bullets.
HST 200gr is what I use as well. ~1100fps from my G20.4. When I'm staying in a town and hiking in brown bear country, I keep a HST round in the chamber and just swap mags between HST and solid bullets.
That is exactly what I do. I would rather not have a round that will penetrate to Canada in the chamber for EDC, and on a bear I figure there is a high probability shot one will be a warning shot. With my USP, I used the Hornady Critical Defense .45 +P JHP in the same was as the HST in 10mm.
Clusterfrack
02-09-2025, 12:51 PM
That is exactly what I do. I would rather not have a round that will penetrate to Canada in the chamber for EDC, and on a bear I figure there is a high probability shot one will be a warning shot. With my USP, I used the Hornady Critical Defense .45 +P JHP in the same was as the HST in 10mm.
... and a 200gr HST at 1100fps doesn't seem like a horrible choice for a head shot in extremis.
Gun Mutt
02-09-2025, 03:53 PM
Same thought process I had when used to visit my dad in Kentucky and later when I lived in Montana for 3 glorious years.
Granted, I've probably only put 3k rounds through my G20.3, but I've always loved shooting it. Sample of one and all, but mine has fired everything I've ever fed it.
Probably 60-65% of that being various 180-210gr fmj or flat point range rounds, the rest being the 10mm-nerd shooting and evaluation of everything from the high velocity 135gr Corbon (looks like maybe they no longer offer it), 200gr XTP hp's, different varieties of 200-210gr woods loads from Buffalo Bore (never again) and Double Tap and when it last saw daily carry, the HP was some boutique 175gr Silvertips as recommended on the Taffin forum...forget who and don't have a box left.
The single malf I can remember with this pistol was a failure to feed of genuine Winchester Silvertip during the night shoot of a Louis Awerbuck class in 2000. It's also quite possibly the most accurate pistol I own, because of the AO's where I carried and shot it the most, I've certainly done more of my long distance handgun shooting with it, which I'm sure affects this opinion. I still haven't gotten to take that deeply desired long distance game gathering shot with it, sigh.
Never had to defensively shoot a large animal either, but I definitely practiced rapid fire strings with all the loads mentioned above in case I was called to do so.
Fekkin' love my 10mm, but if I were buying a woods gun today, I think I'd lean towards a G21.5 for the greater selection of loads. And that would 100% result in my adding a G30.5 to my world and it would probably eat everything I fed it...unlike the POS G29.3 I owned that choked on anything hotter than .40S&W.
No point to any of the above, just wool gathering on a lazy Sunday, prolly yell at some clouds later.
1slow
02-09-2025, 08:07 PM
I am very fond of HK USP45 LEM full size for CCW and as a woods gun. Have multiples, mags, holsters, etc….
I like the idea of the Sig 320 X10 Comp for faster follow up shots and 15 rounds.
Not sure if it a worthwhile change what with logistics.
1slow
02-11-2025, 12:23 AM
GJM please,
Do you use a 9mm 320 as an understudy for the 10mm comped 320. If so which variant ?
Thanks.
GJM please,
Do you use a 9mm 320 as an understudy for the 10mm comped 320. If so which variant ?
Thanks.
Yes, but no particular model, just any 320 I happen to have handy.
J.Roy
05-15-2025, 08:21 PM
133171
Still running this. Nothing major to report.
760 Rounds / 5 Failures ——
20 UW Xtreme penetrator 140
10 UW XTP 200
50 S&B 3 FAilure to load with A extend
15 G9 outdoor
11 federal fusion 200
40 underwood 200 XTP
50 Fiocci 180
20 Federal Fusion 200
J.Roy
05-15-2025, 08:41 PM
https://youtu.be/sUIMi4xVy-8
Forgot my holster. Bill from the ready
Timbonez
05-16-2025, 11:28 AM
https://youtu.be/sUIMi4xVy-8
Forgot my holster. Bill from the ready
"LIKE"
1slow
05-16-2025, 02:24 PM
Yes, but no particular model, just any 320 I happen to have handy.
I am staying with the HK USP45s at this point.
The 320 issues worry me !
https://youtu.be/sUIMi4xVy-8
Forgot my holster. Bill from the ready
Nice hat by the way
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