USPSA Scoring

[jrobinson]

I thought I posted about this already, but for some reason can't find the post, BUT,

I am curious, I understand it to be pretty complicated. The scoring. I shoot minor 9mm, if that makes a difference.

Is it better take your time and get more alphas/ fewer charlies, but have a worse time, or is it better to speed through it and have maybe a few more charlies, but a fast time.

How important is it to take a 3rd shot to get rid of a charlie.

Thanks!

[Sal Picante]

I thought I posted about this already, but for some reason can't find the post, BUT,

I am curious, I understand it to be pretty complicated. The scoring. I shoot minor 9mm, if that makes a difference.

Is it better take your time and get more alphas/ fewer charlies, but have a worse time, or is it better to speed through it and have maybe a few more charlies, but a fast time.

How important is it to take a 3rd shot to get rid of a charlie.

Thanks!

In Hit Factor scoring (USPSA and IPSC) the answer is: "It depends!"

Rules of thumb:

Stages with < 5 hit factor generally favor accuracy. If you know you binked a Charlie, make that shit up. Eg. in minor a Charlie is -2 points, which, at 5 hit factor equates t0 .4 seconds. If you know you can make up a shot in less than that, you'll be ahead.

Stages with high hit factors, say > 7.5 Hit Factor, generally favor speed. If you know you binked a Charlie or a Delta, don't make it up, because that is just stacking time. Eg. in minor that Charlie, -2 points, works out to the time of a split: ~.25 seconds. Just not worth burning more time to make it up.
Higher hit factor than, say 10: turn on the bullet hose and just be happy to hang charlies and Deltas on paper.

For stages with hit factor 5 < x < 7, this is the sweet spot. Shooting clean with clean movement should help her. Making up a shot if you can, is acceptable.


The problem:

Nobody know the exact High Hit Factor of a stage until someone good actually bothers to shoot it. We can guess, and as we practice, develop some feelings for how long stuff should take, but even then certain tasks can "pollute" this understanding... Does the stage contain a lot of long movement with no shooting time (that'll lower a hit factor)? Does the stage have you doing a bunch of bullshit: carrying stuff? pulling ropes and etc to open ports/props? That may also lower a hit factor?

So... With that in mind, what was your question again?

[jrobinson]

In Hit Factor scoring (USPSA and IPSC) the answer is: "It depends!"

Rules of thumb:

Stages with < 5 hit factor generally favor accuracy. If you know you binked a Charlie, make that shit up. Eg. in minor a Charlie is -2 points, which, at 5 hit factor equates t0 .4 seconds. If you know you can make up a shot in less than that, you'll be ahead.

Stages with high hit factors, say > 7.5 Hit Factor, generally favor speed. If you know you binked a Charlie or a Delta, don't make it up, because that is just stacking time. Eg. in minor that Charlie, -2 points, works out to the time of a split: ~.25 seconds. Just not worth burning more time to make it up.
Higher hit factor than, say 10: turn on the bullet hose and just be happy to hang charlies and Deltas on paper.

For stages with hit factor 5 < x < 7, this is the sweet spot. Shooting clean with clean movement should help her. Making up a shot if you can, is acceptable.


The problem:

Nobody know the exact High Hit Factor of a stage until someone good actually bothers to shoot it. We can guess, and as we practice, develop some feelings for how long stuff should take, but even then certain tasks can "pollute" this understanding... Does the stage contain a lot of long movement with no shooting time (that'll lower a hit factor)? Does the stage have you doing a bunch of bullshit: carrying stuff? pulling ropes and etc to open ports/props? That may also lower a hit factor?

So... With that in mind, what was your question again?


Lol! What determines a hit factor? you mentioned <5 hit factor, etc.. What is a hit factor?

[Moylan]

Lol! What determines a hit factor? you mentioned <5 hit factor, etc.. What is a hit factor?

Unlike Les Pepperoni, I am a USPSA newbie and trying to figure all this stuff out myself. I found this video pretty informative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owQfj41Ns4w It kind of takes the info that Les gave you, but spells it out for twelve minutes or something.

[Sal Picante]

Lol! What determines a hit factor? you mentioned <5 hit factor, etc.. What is a hit factor?

Say a stage has 10 targets.
Each target requires 2 shots.
That's 20 shots.
Each shot is worth a maximum of 5 points. (An Alpha is 5 points. Steel is worth 5 points.)
The stage has a maximum of 100 points.

The Hit Factor is Points divided by Time.

How long does the stage take? Depends on the stage.

Let's say the targets are all really close and stacked together... The stage may take, say 8 seconds. This is a 100/8 = 12.5 Hit Factor. Go Fast.
Let's say the targets are all spread out... The stage may take 18 seconds. This is a 100/18 = 5.5 Hit Factor. Probably want to get your hits.

[Noah]

Lol! What determines a hit factor? you mentioned <5 hit factor, etc.. What is a hit factor?

In short, points per second.

For a minor scored gun, an Alpha is 5 points. A Charlie is 3.

If I draw and fire 2 shots in 1.7 seconds and hit an A and a C, that's 8 points and a 4.7 hit factor (points divided by time).

Les is saying that for a stage with a high hit factor, that means a fast paced close range stage where speed matters most. A low hit factor stage will have more long shots and slower pace and more confirmation/ make ups makes more sense. At my low experience level, recognizing the need for makeups and processing them takes a LOT of time, unless I called an obvious bad shot.

If you're shooting limited minor, Major is also 5 points for an Alpha but 4 points for a Charlie, so Major takes less of a penalty by throwing a Charlie. That means to win shooting limited minor, you have to shoot more Alphas and less Charlie's just as fast as the next guy shooting Major.

But if you're fairly new to USPSA like me, I shoot limited minor too because that's the gun I carry and want to shoot. I don't shoot production because the higher number of reloads would vastly complicate your stage plans. So I just shoot limited minor and focus on improving my own performance. It would be awhile before it matters if I'm shooting Major. I'm more worried about being safe, remembering my stage plan, not DQing, improving, and having fun!

[GJM]

You should understand the math of hit factor, because that is how USPSA scoring works, but if you are not a math person, just shoot for alphas as fast as you can. That is different than just shooting alphas.

[GJM]

If you don't want to do math, here is a wag that works well. Shooting minor, a charlie costs you .40 in time, and a delta costs you .80. A miss is three seconds. At a 10 hit factor, cut all those times in half, so a C is .20, a D is .40, and a miss is 1.5 seconds.

[feudist]

If you don't want to do math, here is a wag that works well. Shooting minor, a charlie costs you .40 in time, and a delta costs you .80. A miss is three seconds. At a 10 hit factor, cut all those times in half, so a C is .20, a D is .40, and a miss is 1.5 seconds.

So called misses are always made up? Likewise called no-shoots?

[Jim Watson]

Comment by shooter at USPSA Nationals, some years ago: Any sport that takes 20 minutes to explain the scoring system has got problems.

When IPSC was trying to get in as a "demonstration event" at the Olympics, they were going to use Time Plus scoring so the spectators could tell what was going on before the match was done and hit factor, stage factor, and results were computed.

[Artemas2]

Comment by shooter at USPSA Nationals, some years ago: Any sport that takes 20 minutes to explain the scoring system has got problems.

When IPSC was trying to get in as a "demonstration event" at the Olympics, they were going to use Time Plus scoring so the spectators could tell what was going on before the match was done and hit factor, stage factor, and results were computed.

it's Points per second(time)
P/T=HF
then the HF is calculated on a curve for each competitor using the stage point value as a total to derive from, which is then combined across all the stages to determine the winner.

Explaining it isn't the hard part, it's understanding and applying it. :D

...it only took me 4 years to figure than much out:cool:

[Jim Watson]

I understand the system, I'd hate to have to figure it out manually. Practiscore makes it easy now, though.
The statement was published in USPSA's own Front Sight magazine, they know what they have.

[Leroy]

Once you understand and know how to use hit factor scoring to your advantage everything else seems really boring. I think it's the best scoring system I have used in any of the practical shooting sports.

[bofe954]

Comment by shooter at USPSA Nationals, some years ago: Any sport that takes 20 minutes to explain the scoring system has got problems.

When IPSC was trying to get in as a "demonstration event" at the Olympics, they were going to use Time Plus scoring so the spectators could tell what was going on before the match was done and hit factor, stage factor, and results were computed.

Technology has cured that, unless you somehow are still scoring without tablets.

[Gio]

Hit factor scoring is far superior to any other competitive shooting scoring format, and as others have said, it's easy to compute now that it's all done electronically.

One of the biggest frustrations with time plus scoring is one disaster on one stage (dropped magazine, malfunction, etc) can hose your entire match. With hit factor scoring, you can recover from problems like that and still have a successful match.

Another way to think of hit factor scoring is "how many points can you collect in a certain amount of time." At the higher levels of shooting, this pushes shooters to keep the time the same and be as accurate as possible within that time, which pushes shooters to find the limits of human performance with a pistol. With time plus scoring and harsh scoring penalties (i.e. IDPA), it's almost always worth taking make up shots for accuracy or slowing down to shoot reactive sight pictures on most targets, which limits how far people can push the envelope of performance.

[Clusterfrack]

Once you understand and know how to use hit factor scoring to your advantage everything else seems really boring. I think it's the best scoring system I have used in any of the practical shooting sports.

I’d rather spend my time and money practicing than shoot a time plus match.

[Sal Picante]

Hit factor scoring is far superior to any other competitive shooting scoring format, and as others have said, it's easy to compute now that it's all done electronically.

One of the biggest frustrations with time plus scoring is one disaster on one stage (dropped magazine, malfunction, etc) can hose your entire match. With hit factor scoring, you can recover from problems like that and still have a successful match.

Another way to think of hit factor scoring is "how many points can you collect in a certain amount of time." At the higher levels of shooting, this pushes shooters to keep the time the same and be as accurate as possible within that time, which pushes shooters to find the limits of human performance with a pistol. With time plus scoring and harsh scoring penalties (i.e. IDPA), it's almost always worth taking make up shots for accuracy or slowing down to shoot reactive sight pictures on most targets, which limits how far people can push the envelope of performance.

^ This. In droves.

Applying hit factor scoring to fixed times is pretty easy... Consider that IDPA stages are essentially fixed at essentially 2 Hit Factor (minor) and attack those matches as such.
( A Charlie is -2 points in minor and adds 1 second. That's 2 HF. Interestingly, a Delta, which is -4 points, adds 3 seconds, so is ~1.6 HF...)

I think this is why I've had success in IDPA, honestly. I just approach everything as a 2 Hit Factor stage. Hits are more important.

[Sal Picante]

Once you understand and know how to use hit factor scoring to your advantage everything else seems really boring. I think it's the best scoring system I have used in any of the practical shooting sports.


I’d rather spend my time and money practicing than shoot a time plus match.

I love the richness of Hit Factor scoring WAY WAY WAY more than fixed time scoring.
There is a big element of variability in competition with Hit Factor, i.e. some stages require speed, while other require accuracy.

That said, for the aims of IDPA :rolleyes:, where they're trying to reward good marksmanship, the scoring system encourages diligent shooting and severely penalizes poor shooting.
I appreciate that they've set it up that way - think of the average CCW holder: if they're getting a stiff cup of "You done fu-kittened up!" at the local IDPA club match, that's a clue that they should be hitting the target way more.

I appreciate that there is room for both scoring systems.

[Sal Picante]

This just dropped a few days ago... Eric Grauffel and JJ discuss Hit Factor math.
It is worth watching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMDjWWWdJmk

[Clusterfrack]

I love the richness of Hit Factor scoring WAY WAY WAY more than fixed time scoring.
There is a big element of variability in competition with Hit Factor, i.e. some stages require speed, while other require accuracy.

That said, for the aims of IDPA :rolleyes:, where they're trying to reward good marksmanship, the scoring system encourages diligent shooting and severely penalizes poor shooting.
I appreciate that they've set it up that way - think of the average CCW holder: if they're getting a stiff cup of "You done fu-kittened up!" at the local IDPA club match, that's a clue that they should be hitting the target way more.

I appreciate that there is room for both scoring systems.

Good points. A few thoughts:

A properly designed Hit Factor stage can accomplish a similar thing. When the HF is low (2.x) that will heavily punish sloppy accuracy.

At the last IDPA match I shot, I was beat by a guy who scanned targets for hits outside the Down 0, and made them up--after most or all of the string/stage was over. That had never occurred to me, and was a total WTF moment for me. But a few seconds is a long time...

[JCN]

Good points. A few thoughts:

A properly designed Hit Factor stage can accomplish a similar thing. When the HF is low (2.x) that will heavily punish sloppy accuracy.

At the last IDPA match I shot, I was beat by a guy who scanned targets for hits outside the Down 0, and made them up--after most or all of the string/stage was over. That had never occurred to me, and was a total WTF moment for me. But a few seconds is a long time...

I actually had the thought of burst firing three shots on everything with PCC that wasn’t a dead center 0-0.

But eventually decided that reading books with my daughter was a better use of time than the IDPA match. :D

[ECK]

When it comes to the balancing act between speed and accuracy I’m a proponent of taking whatever time it is you need to make the shot (more time for a longer/harder shot, less if it is a relatively easy shot), but do everything else at warp speed.

Everything else being movement between positions, aggressively transitioning between targets, reloads, etc.

I’m shooting a lot of minor PF these days (CO division) so A’s and close C’s are what I am trying for on every stage. Sometimes I make up a C hit that I call, but only if I can do it quickly.

I tell new shooters: You can shoot all As but if it takes you forever and a day you’re not going to win. Conversely, you can shoot really really quickly but if you’re not getting decent hits you’re not going to win either. But the guy who does win this stage (and maybe the match) will likely be shooting a lot of As in as short a period of time possible.

Since we’re also kinda talking about IDPA on the side, I sometimes see guys in vests tip-toeing up to the next shooting position like they are trying to sneak up on the target while on the clock. Since there is a timer involved, I say F that and RUN like you mean it!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The idea of that was supposedly (haha), IDPA had some more 'realism'. On DA STREET or in DA HOUSE, you wouldn't run full blast up to a shooting position in the open. That's the way to get shot dead. With time being the fetish, it is obviously counter productive for game score. The debate about 'cover' calls was a symptom of the game vs. an attempt at 'realism'.

I recall in an IDPA match a dude running full speed down a pathway and falling flat on his face. Seen that in USPSA too. FLAT on DA STREET - probably not good for you.

However, by now attempts at realism in either genre is stupid. Get what you want out of the shooting experience, be it game winning or just practice hitting a target at reasonable speed and accuracy with maybe some realistic emphasis. Our older folks, like moi, don't worry about the run time that much.

[jrobinson]

Thank you everyone!! I think I got the jist of it and will check out the video as well, So in suuuper lamens terms. If the stage seems like it should be quick to get through, then time is probably a bigger factor, but if the stage is more involved, odds are targets are more important.

But really, I just need to learn about it a bit more.

Thank you everyone!

[Clusterfrack]

Thank you everyone!! I think I got the jist of it and will check out the video as well, So in suuuper lamens terms. If the stage seems like it should be quick to get through, then time is probably a bigger factor, but if the stage is more involved, odds are targets are more important.

But really, I just need to learn about it a bit more.

Thank you everyone!

Sort of. Short or long stages can have high or low HFs, so what you wrote isn't quite right.

If there is a lot of stuff you need to do that's NOT shooting, the HF will be lower. Usually that means long movements between targets. If HF is low (<5) you need to shoot a very high proportion of Alphas to be competitive. A's are more important shooting Minor than Major.

Even if the HF is very high, there are very few stages that you can shoot Deltas, Mikes, or No-Shoots on and still be competitive. Again, that's especially true for Minor power factor.

However, trying to guarantee A's and no misses takes too much time to be competitive.

[Sal Picante]

However, by now attempts at realism in either genre is stupid. Get what you want out of the shooting experience, be it game winning or just practice hitting a target at reasonable speed and accuracy with maybe some realistic emphasis. Our older folks, like moi, don't worry about the run time that much.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head...

If we're adding "realism", don't turn it into a "sport" or a "game" and accept that subjectivity in "who won" and exploration of approach/skills are so much more important outcomes. Especially in this day and age of UTM/SIMS/airsoft/ECQC/FoF we can learn so much more about "real engagements". Folks like SouthNarc, Ben Aubin (https://www.redbeardcombatives.com/) and John Dufresne (https://www.kinetic-consulting.net/product-page/Weaponized-geometry) are doing so much to move the needle on that front.

I've really dig that that IDPA has revised the rules to make cover calls non-subjective and streamline the entire experience into a valid sport. The days of fishing vest dudes range-lawyering it up is pretty much done... Sure, there are still folks that didn't get the proverbial memo, but, then again, there is a big chunk of folks shooting USPSA that are in the same boat: Lemme know when you've RO'd the dude with all the accessories bolted onto his XD? Comp, racker, magwell, extendos.... Sigh. I did that last Monday...

[Sal Picante]

Alright jrobinson, here's a test for you...

You're shooting a Hit Factor-scored match (outlaw USPSA) where you are a presented with a stage:

There are 3 paper target at 10 yards and 6 steel plates at 10 yards.
Somewhere, after your first shot and before your last shot you need to reload or incur a penalty (that's -10 points).

Do you reload or skip the reload? Explain your reasoning.

[jrobinson]

Alright jrobinson, here's a test for you...

You're shooting a Hit Factor-scored match (outlaw USPSA) where you are a presented with a stage:

There are 3 paper target at 10 yards and 6 steel plates at 10 yards.
Somewhere, after your first shot and before your last shot you need to reload or incur a penalty (that's -10 points).

Do you reload or skip the reload? Explain your reasoning.

I didn't even think about not reloading and taking the penalty as an option! ummm.

[Sal Picante]

I didn't even think about not reloading and taking the penalty as an option! ummm.

Anyone want to do the math here?

[Clusterfrack]

Alright jrobinson, here's a test for you...

You're shooting a Hit Factor-scored match (outlaw USPSA) where you are a presented with a stage:

There are 3 paper target at 10 yards and 6 steel plates at 10 yards.
Somewhere, after your first shot and before your last shot you need to reload or incur a penalty (that's -10 points).

Do you reload or skip the reload? Explain your reasoning.

Fun problem! This is going to make people think HF scoring is way too complicated... It's really not, and stuff like this isn't worth worrying about until you get to a fairly high level or you are a total geek.

Let's say:

3s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.25s reload to steel
1.25s for 5 remaining steel
Dropped a couple Charlies: 56pts
56pts/5.5s = 10.1HF

Skipping the reload:
3s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.5s for 6 steel
56 pts - 10 penalty = 46pts
46pts/6s = 10.2HF

With a 10HF, a 10 point penalty is equivalent to: 10pts / ( 10pts/s ) = 1s, so unless you can reload in under a 1s it's just barely not worth doing the reload (not reloading saves 1.25s - 0.25s = 1.0s)

However, if your times are:

4s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.5s reload to steel
1.5s for 5 remaining steel
Dropped a couple Charlies: 56pts
56pts/7s = 8HF

Skipping the reload:
4s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.8s for 6 steel
56 pts - 10 penalty = 46pts
46pts/5.8s = 7.93HF

With a 8HF, a 10 point penalty is equivalent to: 10pts / ( 8pts/s ) = 1.25s. Not doing the reload saves 1.5s - 0.3s = 1.2s, so it's just barely worth doing the reload.

However, the lowest risk approach is NOT doing the reload because that's one more thing that could go wrong.

[Sal Picante]

I think the times on the plates are a bit ambitious, but yeah, neat thought experiment...
Since the HF is up there, it seems to skews it to saving time...

My math was betting 60/7.5 = 8 vs 50/6 = 8.3 & less risk...

[Clusterfrack]

I think the times on the plates are a bit ambitious, but yeah, neat thought experiment...
Since the HF is up there, it seems to skews it to saving time...

My math was betting 60/7.5 = 8 vs 50/6 = 8.3 & less risk...

You did say plates but in my brain they were full size poppers…

[ECK]

If this was a USPSA Speed Shoot, the reload would need to occur before the 9th
shot and be a per shot procedural penalty until the reload is performed. That would skew the HF calculus.

[jrobinson]

Fun problem! This is going to make people think HF scoring is way too complicated... It's really not, and stuff like this isn't worth worrying about until you get to a fairly high level or you are a total geek.

Let's say:

3s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.25s reload to steel
1.25s for 5 remaining steel
Dropped a couple Charlies: 56pts
56pts/5.5s = 10.1HF

Skipping the reload:
3s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.5s for 6 steel
56 pts - 10 penalty = 46pts
46pts/6s = 10.2HF

With a 10HF, a 10 point penalty is equivalent to: 10pts / ( 10pts/s ) = 1s, so unless you can reload in under a 1s it's just barely not worth doing the reload (not reloading saves 1.25s - 0.25s = 1.0s)

However, if your times are:

4s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.5s reload to steel
1.5s for 5 remaining steel
Dropped a couple Charlies: 56pts
56pts/7s = 8HF

Skipping the reload:
4s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.8s for 6 steel
56 pts - 10 penalty = 46pts
46pts/5.8s = 7.93HF

With a 8HF, a 10 point penalty is equivalent to: 10pts / ( 8pts/s ) = 1.25s. Not doing the reload saves 1.5s - 0.3s = 1.2s, so it's just barely worth doing the reload.

However, the lowest risk approach is NOT doing the reload because that's one more thing that could go wrong.


Yeah, my skill level isn't quite to this point.. YET. I'm still in the mindset of, "ok, if I walk this direction, make sure your barrel doesn't break the 180" haha

[Sal Picante]

If this was a USPSA Speed Shoot, the reload would need to occur before the 9th
shot and be a per shot procedural penalty until the reload is performed. That would skew the HF calculus.

Yup - that's why USPSA has rules that make sense. however, I did say, "You're shooting a Hit Factor-scored match (outlaw USPSA)"

[ECK]

@Les you still bring up a good point tho, sometimes it’s better to eat the penalty for not doing something.

Disappearing targets are a good example that are scored NPM and no penalty for not engaging them, provided you activated the mechanism prior to the last shot.

However, putting a single Drop Turner out there IMO is dumb and it’s better to put a static target near the DT so it makes more sense (usually) to pick up the DT.

Or not. Sometimes it’s fun to watch people do the calculus in their head during the walk-thru…

[Slavex]

great discussion on HF. I don't typically try and figure out a HF when I look at a stage, I only care about time. I've gotten pretty good at estimating how long guys like Eric Grauffel take to shoot stages after shooting in Europe for 6 years in the summer, and I try to push myself based on that. I don't factor in anything other than A's in my planning either, just accept what I get when done. However, sometimes, on a stage where a reload is necessary or required, I've looked at the penalties to see which is the better plan, and sometimes, it's better to take the penalty. A good example that actually worked that a reload was worth it, was a stage I saw from Australia with my buddy Paul. Unloaded start, (Production there like here in Canada and the USA is 10 rounds in the mag), 1 steel, 4 paper and one appearing paper target, 11 rounds required. He decided to not reload for the 11th shot (2nd shot on the appearing target) and take the miss and lack of an A on that target. He shot 10 Alpha in 5.31 with a HF of 7.533. If he did the reload in 1.5 seconds he'd have gotten an 8.0764, he could have even taken 1.80 second reload and come out slightly higher. We spent probably 2 weeks arguing about that on Facebook lol. Risk vs reward, calculating hit factors etc. My position was, shoot the 10 shots, do the reload, and if you land it in a good time, take the 11th shot. If you wobble it, don't shoot. Some argued for doing the reload after hitting the plate/activator (first target most shot), but I argued then you were absolutely risking the stage if you screwed up the reload, doing it at the end had gave you the least risk.
I've watched people walking stages and standing back with calculators or phones calculating HFs and such but just can't bring myself to do that on most stages, it's just a weird way to plan I find.

[Sal Picante]

great discussion on HF. I don't typically try and figure out a HF when I look at a stage, I only care about time. I've gotten pretty good at estimating how long guys like Eric Grauffel take to shoot stages after shooting in Europe for 6 years in the summer, and I try to push myself based on that. I don't factor in anything other than A's in my planning either, just accept what I get when done. However, sometimes, on a stage where a reload is necessary or required, I've looked at the penalties to see which is the better plan, and sometimes, it's better to take the penalty. A good example that actually worked that a reload was worth it, was a stage I saw from Australia with my buddy Paul. Unloaded start, (Production there like here in Canada and the USA is 10 rounds in the mag), 1 steel, 4 paper and one appearing paper target, 11 rounds required. He decided to not reload for the 11th shot (2nd shot on the appearing target) and take the miss and lack of an A on that target. He shot 10 Alpha in 5.31 with a HF of 7.533. If he did the reload in 1.5 seconds he'd have gotten an 8.0764, he could have even taken 1.80 second reload and come out slightly higher. We spent probably 2 weeks arguing about that on Facebook lol. Risk vs reward, calculating hit factors etc. My position was, shoot the 10 shots, do the reload, and if you land it in a good time, take the 11th shot. If you wobble it, don't shoot. Some argued for doing the reload after hitting the plate/activator (first target most shot), but I argued then you were absolutely risking the stage if you screwed up the reload, doing it at the end had gave you the least risk.
I've watched people walking stages and standing back with calculators or phones calculating HFs and such but just can't bring myself to do that on most stages, it's just a weird way to plan I find.

Sometimes, when magazine count permits, doing the 'ol "double reload" makes it worth it... I found this old video of me doing that a match in Oak Park, IL - it worked out that day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuVnpSYHfto

That was one of those stages where you look at the drop-turner (NPMs) and calculate it as a 45pt stage in 8s or a 55 pt stage in 8.5 seconds... You know the HF is going to be low(ish), especially with the table start/empty gun, so getting any additional points is seemingly worth it...
It was handy to guess/estimate the HHFs before shooting - knowing that data just helps determine if you should take the bet or not; if you should push or hold...

[DMF13]

I look forward the day when calculations, such as those mentioned above, are actually a real factor in how well I do at a match. I'm not there yet, but "I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard." :cool:

[Sal Picante]

I look forward the day when calculations, such as those mentioned above, are actually a real factor in how well I do at a match. I'm not there yet, but "I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard." :cool:

I hardly knew which end of the gun the bullet came out of...
I've been every USPSA classifications: U, D, C, B, A, M, GM.
I never thought I'd be a GM.
I never thought I'd win IDPA Nationals.
I never thought I'd be able to train with Eric Grauffel and have any of it make sense.

Don't sell yourself short of anything. Anything is possible.

[DMF13]

I hardly knew which end of the gun the bullet came out of...
I've been every USPSA classifications: U, D, C, B, A, M, GM.
I never thought I'd be a GM.
I never thought I'd win IDPA Nationals.
I never thought I'd be able to train with Eric Grauffel and have any of it make sense.

Don't sell yourself short of anything. Anything is possible.Thank you sir.

Every day I start my entries, in both my firearms training log, and my workout log, with "Goal: Make A Class." When I achieve that, the very next entries will start with, "Goal: Make M Class."

I just wish I had started this journey 25 years ago!

[Slavex]

Sometimes, when magazine count permits, doing the 'ol "double reload" makes it worth it... I found this old video of me doing that a match in Oak Park, IL - it worked out that day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuVnpSYHfto

That was one of those stages where you look at the drop-turner (NPMs) and calculate it as a 45pt stage in 8s or a 55 pt stage in 8.5 seconds... You know the HF is going to be low(ish), especially with the table start/empty gun, so getting any additional points is seemingly worth it...
It was handy to guess/estimate the HHFs before shooting - knowing that data just helps determine if you should take the bet or not; if you should push or hold...

desperately trying to find my Provincials video from a few years ago. We had a stage with 22 rounds, and I and few others (after I proved the method lol), ran the gun dry for the first 11 (5 paper 1 steel) then on the move reloaded twice to get back to 11 for the last 5 paper and 1 steel. When I did it the RM was watching as well as the MD, and the MD came over laughing and punching me as I'd messed up the challenge he thought he'd introduced with the stage. The RM just shook his head and then later that day did it the same way. That's the only time I've ever had the chance to do a double reload, hmmmm, gonna have to setup a stage with it!

[Jim Watson]

I had not before heard of a double reload.
Shooting L10 tonight, maybe I will get a chance.

[Sal Picante]

I had not before heard of a double reload.
Shooting L10 tonight, maybe I will get a chance.

It helps when there is movement, etc which allows the time it burns to be worth it...

[DMF13]

Can some of you hit factor magicians/mathematicians give some examples of how to determine whether or not to fire a makeup shot makes sense, after hitting a no shoot?

While I'm still struggling to get better at shot calling, and usually if I clip one its very close to the edge, that I called as a good shot. However, there are some times that I know I hit the no shoot. Generally if its Comstock scoring, and I know I can fire a quick makeup, I go for it, and if its Virginia count I leave it, with no makeup, to avoid the penalty. I assume there are situations where that might not be the best course of action.

Any thoughts on that?

[JCN]

Can some of you hit factor magicians/mathematicians give some examples of how to determine whether or not to fire a makeup shot makes sense, after hitting a no shoot?

While I'm still struggling to get better at shot calling, and usually if I clip one its very close to the edge, that I called as a good shot. However, there are some times that I know I hit the no shoot. Generally if its Comstock scoring, and I know I can fire a quick makeup, I go for it, and if its Virginia count I leave it, with no makeup, to avoid the penalty. I assume there are situations where that might not be the best course of action.

Any thoughts on that?

In general, try not to miss or hit no shoots.... :D

Comstock
At the B level shooter stage: Make up any no shoot or borderline delta-mike. Don't make up any charlie-delta that you left position already (don't go back for them).

At the A level stage: Make up any no shoot or borderline delta-mike that you haven't left the position yet. Don't make up charlies.