New rules

[Mirolynmonbro]

https://www.idpa.com/announcements/new-rulebook-mar-and-equipment-appendices-2/?fbclid=IwAR3-OhZJrD5I9QtpeZIpldhWwlEmwzCnAl4BkVz-YpLgRXMFNnNJF2N0HnU

Several more changes in the links above but these are the equipment changes

A.1 Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP)
o Added A.1.3.7 - "Compensated/ported firearms with a non-compensated/ported barrel installed.”
o A.1.4.4 – added text “NO magwells allowed that can be removed and reinstalled. Factory or aftermarket."
o A.1.4.8 – changed “Compensated/ported firearms with non-compensated/ported barrels installed." to “Compensators of any kind or ported barrels"

A2. Enhanced Service Pistol Division (ESP)
o A.2.3.1 – Added text “Allowances and Restriction in”
o Added A.2.3.2 – “Ported barrels”
o Added A. 2.3.3 – “Compensator and Muzzle devices incorporated into the firearm. Screw on or removable attachments that are pinned on are not permitted.”
o Added A.2.3.4 – “Aftermarket magazine base pads may be used provided they do not make the magazine weight more than 1.00 oz. over the same capacity factory
magazine."

[Jim Watson]

And bear in mind that CO is just ESP with a dot and CCP is just a smaller ESP.

[MVS]

This is HUGE. I don't know how they will enforce it or where they will draw the line, but I applaud the intent.

8 EQUIPMENT RULES
8.1 Firearms – General
Equipment: All equipment used in Defensive Pistol divisions at matches must meet the following simple guidelines:
equipment must be practical for self-defense use. It must be suitable for all-day continuous wear and concealed. And
must be worn in a manner that would be suitable for all-day continuous wear. The match director will be REQUIRED to
disallow any equipment that does not meet these simple criteria. If you wouldn't carry it in public to defend yourself,
you can't shoot or use it in a Defensive Pistol division for competition. [1] Another criterion used to assess gear will be to
ask how this would appear to patrons in a local shopping mall or supermarket in regions where open carry is not
permitted. If you can conceal your pistol holster with a light windbreaker and comfortably draw your pistol while seated
in an automobile with bucket seats, your holster is probably okay. [2] -- Reference: [1] & [2] IDPA Official Rulebook 10-
26-96
Equipment Guidelines: Gear permitted for Defensive Pistol competition must be specifically designed for everyday carry
(NOT for range or competition use) and must be completely concealed. This includes firearm accessories, aftermarket
parts, holsters, ammunition carriers, and garments that are not otherwise specified in the current rulebook.
Regional Coordinators in consultation with HQ will review and decide which equipment best meet IDPA criteria to assist
Area Coordinators and Match Directors as needed. This will be determined by a combination of reviewing manufacturer
websites, industry surveys, and visiting public venues to determine whether a product is compatible with the principles
of the sport.
8.1.1 Divisi

[Noah]

Unfortunately I don't see those gear rules eliminating the fishing vests. If I'm reading right, porting and integral comps like the Macro are now legal in ESP, CO, and CCP.

[MVS]

Unfortunately I don't see those gear rules eliminating the fishing vests. If I'm reading right, porting and integral comps like the Macro are now legal in ESP, CO, and CCP.

Where does it say that in CCP? Same as ESP, I guess?

A.4.1 Handguns permitted for use in CCP must
A.4.1.1 Be semi-automatic.
A.4.1.2 Use 9 mm (9x19) or larger cartridges.
A.4.1.3 Barrel length 4 ⅜” or less.
A.4.1.4 The unloaded firearm with the heaviest magazine must weigh 38.00 oz. or less.
A.4.1.5 The firearm with the largest magazine inserted must fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 7 ¾” x 5 ⅜” x
1 ⅜”.
A.4.1.6 Handguns, associated modifications, restrictions, holsters, magazine carriers, calibers, start condition,
and division capacity shall be compliant with ESP Division requirements, except as noted or restricted in
items A.4.1.1 thru A.4.1.5 above.
A.4.2 Start Condition
A.4.2.1 Single action only firearms will start cocked and locked. (Hammer cocked, safety engaged).
A.4.2.2 Selective DA/SA firearms may start cocked and locked or de-cocked, at the shooter’s discretion.
A.4.2.3 DA, DAO, or striker fired firearms with a de-cocking lever or button will be de-cocked using the lever or
button.
A.4.2.4 DA, DAO, or striker-fired firearms may have a manual safety engaged at the shooter’s discretion.

[Noah]

Where does it say that in CCP?

A.4.1 Handguns permitted for use in CCP must
A.4.1.1 Be semi-automatic.
A.4.1.2 Use 9 mm (9x19) or larger cartridges.
A.4.1.3 Barrel length 4 ⅜” or less.
A.4.1.4 The unloaded firearm with the heaviest magazine must weigh 38.00 oz. or less.
A.4.1.5 The firearm with the largest magazine inserted must fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 7 ¾” x 5 ⅜” x
1 ⅜”.
A.4.1.6 Handguns, associated modifications, restrictions, holsters, magazine carriers, calibers, start condition,
and division capacity shall be compliant with ESP Division requirements, except as noted or restricted in
items A.4.1.1 thru A.4.1.5 above.
A.4.2 Start Condition
A.4.2.1 Single action only firearms will start cocked and locked. (Hammer cocked, safety engaged).
A.4.2.2 Selective DA/SA firearms may start cocked and locked or de-cocked, at the shooter’s discretion.
A.4.2.3 DA, DAO, or striker fired firearms with a de-cocking lever or button will be de-cocked using the lever or
button.
A.4.2.4 DA, DAO, or striker-fired firearms may have a manual safety engaged at the shooter’s discretion.

A.4.1.6 Handguns, associated modifications, restrictions, holsters, magazine carriers, calibers, start condition,
and division capacity shall be compliant with ESP Division requirements, except as noted or restricted in
items A.4.1.1 thru A.4.1.5 above.

[Amp]

https://www.idpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/2023-Equipment-Appendices-V1-1.pdf

[Jim Watson]

Yes, that 8.1 has a greater content of pious platitudes and subjectivity than before.

Draw from a bucket seat? That could be interpreted to require belly button carry.

So my pistol that fits The Box and makes weight might arbitrarily be dismissed as not suitable for carry?

I have been shooting the same gun in IDPA ESP for 20+ years and I don't plan to change.

[MVS]

So I guess the tungsten grip inserts that come in Sigs have to be removed?

8.1.7 Non-IDPA-Legal Features and Modifications for All Divisions
8.1.7.1 The following features and modifications are not allowed in any division unless otherwise specifically allowed
in the rulebook.
8.1.7.2 Add-on weights that have no legal operational function other than providing weight

[MVS]

Yes, that 8.1 has a greater content of pious platitudes and subjectivity than before.

Draw from a bucket seat? That could be interpreted to require belly button carry.

So my pistol that fits The Box and makes weight might arbitrarily be dismissed as not suitable for carry?

I have been shooting the same gun in IDPA ESP for 20+ years and I don't plan to change.

It just isn't real clear. If they are actually talking about guns, and not just gear a lot of people will be mad. Like X5 Legion owners. Not sure if that is what they mean or not.

[YVK]

I'm curious: it says that barrel porting is allowed but I don't see anywhere that slide porting is. How is barrel porting allowance going to work, or has slide porting been allowed before?

[JCN]

I'm curious: it says that barrel porting is allowed but I don't see anywhere that slide porting is. How is barrel porting allowance going to work, or has slide porting been allowed before?

Glock C models? P365 SAS?

Aftermarket barrels that stick past slide are legal or not legal? I don’t know IDPA rules very well.

100217

[Mirolynmonbro]

I'm curious: it says that barrel porting is allowed but I don't see anywhere that slide porting is. How is barrel porting allowance going to work, or has slide porting been allowed before?

There were sections that allowed it but they have been removed in the newer rulebooks. There isn't anything that says it's illegal

[YVK]

Glock C models? P365 SAS?

Aftermarket barrels that stick past slide are legal or not legal? I don’t know IDPA rules very well.


I don't read rule books on principle, especially USPSA. When I did shoot IDPA, the replacement bbl had to be same length and contour as oem.


There were sections that allowed it but they have been removed in the newer rulebooks. There isn't anything that says it's illegal

Is IDPA's principle "prohibited unless expressly allowed" or "allowed unless expressly prohibited"?

[Jim Watson]

There are lots of protuberant threaded barrels out there, I see no reason a ported muzzle should not stick out... as long as it fits The Box. That would make a Commander easy to get to the cutting edge. Better yet, a 4.25" Prodigy because I think we will eventually see ESP/CO magazine capacity increased to match SSP 15.

[Mirolynmonbro]

Is IDPA's principle "prohibited unless expressly allowed" or "allowed unless expressly prohibited"?

Unfortunately it is "ask your area coordinator" lol

[Jim Watson]

If weather permits, I will ask my AC about some of this stuff. Especially how the pious platitudes will be enforced.

[JCN]

I don't read rule books on principle, especially USPSA. When I did shoot IDPA, the replacement bbl had to be same length and contour as oem.

I’m with you on rule books! It’s the reason I never did RO training.

[Jim Watson]

SHOT report says
"SIG-Sauer showed a new P320 AXG Legion Comp at their SHOT Show range day event. It uses an integrated comp slide."

Sounds like a purpose built 2023 ESP/CO.
Wonder if Joyce leaked the new rules to WC's buds at Sig.

[Zincwarrior]

SHOT report says
"SIG-Sauer showed a new P320 AXG Legion Comp at their SHOT Show range day event. It uses an integrated comp slide."

Sounds like a purpose built 2023 ESP/CO.
Wonder if Joyce leaked the new rules to WC's buds at Sig.

More like Sig told her what the changes to the rules were going to be.

[Mirolynmonbro]

More like Sig told her what the changes to the rules were going to be.

Beretta probably has something ported coming out

[MVS]

I'm curious: it says that barrel porting is allowed but I don't see anywhere that slide porting is. How is barrel porting allowance going to work, or has slide porting been allowed before?

Where does it say barrel porting is allowed?

In this example from ESP it expressly prohibits it. A.2.1.5 Firearms originally sold as compensated/ported models may be used in ESP with noncompensated/ported barrels installed.

I could be missing what you are referring to very easily though.

[Jim Watson]

Read on down.


A.2.3 ESP Permitted Modifications
A.2.3.1 See Allowances and Restriction in 8.1.6 and 8.1.7 in the IDPA Rulebook
A.2.3.2 Ported barrels.
A.2.3.3 Compensator and Muzzle devices incorporated into the firearm. Screw on or removable attachments
that are pinned on are not permitted.

[MVS]

Read on down.


A.2.3 ESP Permitted Modifications
A.2.3.1 See Allowances and Restriction in 8.1.6 and 8.1.7 in the IDPA Rulebook
A.2.3.2 Ported barrels.
A.2.3.3 Compensator and Muzzle devices incorporated into the firearm. Screw on or removable attachments
that are pinned on are not permitted.

That really doesn't make any sense as it directly conflicts with other rules. I give up. I still don't know what they are getting at with the whole new 8.1 verbiage.

[Mirolynmonbro]

That really doesn't make any sense as it directly conflicts with other rules. I give up. I still don't know what they are getting at with the whole new 8.1 verbiage.

I think the keyword is "may"

A.2.1.5 Firearms originally sold as compensated/ported models may be used in ESP with non-compensated/ported barrels installed.

[CraigS]

I looked through all I could find on holsters. '8.5 Holsters' doesn't seem to have changed much but this line from 2022 is gone.
'8.5.1.12 A dropped and offset (DOH) holster with the butt of the firearm no lower than the top of the belt may be used. Concealment and cant angle rules apply.'
It has been replaced w/ this for 2023;
'8.5.1.12 All IDPA legal holsters must hold the butt of the firearm clearly above the top of the belt. Concealment and
cant angle rules apply.'
So that covers holster height and the new for 2023..
'8.5.1.13 When viewed from the front, a holster may not extend away from the belt more than the width of a spare magazine tube or reload device (of the firearm being used) or cause the firearm to tilt further than vertical, unless the shooter’s body touches the grip of firearm.
..covers offset amount so I see these changes as a good thing.

But the Preface paragraph to '8 Equipment Rules' is '8.1 Firearms General' that MVS quoted in post #3 is so vague as to be nearly un-understandable and unenforceable.
- IDPA, 'If you wouldn't carry it in public to defend yourself, you can't shoot or use it in a Defensive Pistol division for competition.'
--Me- I shoot a Beretta 92, but it is a full size gun and I carry an M&P compact. So now I can't shoot a 92 in idpa? I am pretty sure they don't mean that but....
- IDPA, '[1] Another criterion used to assess gear will be to ask how this would appear to patrons in a local shopping mall or supermarket in regions where open carry is not permitted. If you can conceal your pistol holster with a light windbreaker and comfortably draw your pistol while seated in an automobile with bucket seats, your holster is probably okay. [2] -- Reference: [1] & [2] IDPA Official Rulebook 10-26-96'.
--Me- Who is going to decide 'how this would appear to patrons'? Also, even my compact is a pain to deal with in our 15 Mustang or in our 19 Stingray. The 92 I never even try in those cars. In our Honda Pilot the compact is fine but I usually pull the 92 from the holster and put it in the center console. So to me all this is very subjective is going to be decided by one person who could be having a bad day. And what is this reference to 'IDPA Official Rulebook 10-26-96'. An official rulebook from 27 years ago?
- IDPA, 'Equipment Guidelines: Gear permitted for Defensive Pistol competition must be specifically designed for everyday carry (NOT for range or competition use)...'
--Me- Who will, and how will, he/she decide if something was 'specifically designed for everyday carry...'?
I see their intent, and applaud it, but am concerned about how the new rules will be administered. For those of you who have been shooting idpa longer than I, how have Qs on equipment been decided in the past. Does one get told about it, but allowed to shoot today w/ a warning not to show up with it next match? Or does one get sent home if it can't be fixed right now?

[Jim Watson]

Read on down.


A.2.3 ESP Permitted Modifications
A.2.3.1 See Allowances and Restriction in 8.1.6 and 8.1.7 in the IDPA Rulebook
A.2.3.2 Ported barrels.
A.2.3.3 Compensator and Muzzle devices incorporated into the firearm. Screw on or removable attachments
that are pinned on are not permitted.

Field report No 1 on Benos:
"The AC here has ruled that barrel comps are flatly not allowed. I am not sure I agree with this ruling (it's not what the rules actually say), but that's a data point for everyone involved."

[Mirolynmonbro]

Field report No 1 on Benos:
"The AC here has ruled that barrel comps are flatly not allowed. I am not sure I agree with this ruling (it's not what the rules actually say), but that's a data point for everyone involved."

Pretty sure I saw the 365 spectre comp go through a courtesy equipment check at a tier 4 this weekend and pass

[Jim Watson]

That is a good sign.
It will apparently take a while before all the interpretations shake out.

[1911Nut]

That is a good sign.
It will apparently take a while before all the interpretations shake out.

. . . . At which point further changes and modification of the rules will be haphazardly distributed to area coordinators, where they will be subject to variable interpretation and enforcement.

[Jim Watson]

Extension and Correction

The P320 Spectre Comp has a real muzzle compensator, removable and therefore not allowable.

BUT WAIT, the new 320 AXG Legion Comp has the same sort of slots in the slide nose as the 365 Macro and is therefore compliant. When I searched for a 320 comp, the Spectre was the only one in the catalog yet.

[MVS]

Extension and Correction

The P320 Spectre Comp has a real muzzle compensator, removable and therefore not allowable.

BUT WAIT, the new 320 AXG Legion Comp has the same sort of slots in the slide nose as the 365 Macro and is therefore compliant. When I searched for a 320 comp, the Spectre was the only one in the catalog yet.

I had to look that up myself. Not a huge fan of the 320 so I didn't know all of its permutations and I just assumed the Spectre Comp had the same type of comp as the Macro. Wrong.

[Mirolynmonbro]

. . . . At which point further changes and modification of the rules will be haphazardly distributed to area coordinators, where they will be subject to variable interpretation and enforcement.

I hope not. This comp and porting rule change seems very easily understood.

[Sal Picante]

I looked through all I could find on holsters. '8.5 Holsters' doesn't seem to have changed much but this line from 2022 is gone.
'8.5.1.12 A dropped and offset (DOH) holster with the butt of the firearm no lower than the top of the belt may be used. Concealment and cant angle rules apply.'
It has been replaced w/ this for 2023;
'8.5.1.12 All IDPA legal holsters must hold the butt of the firearm clearly above the top of the belt. Concealment and
cant angle rules apply.'
So that covers holster height and the new for 2023..
'8.5.1.13 When viewed from the front, a holster may not extend away from the belt more than the width of a spare magazine tube or reload device (of the firearm being used) or cause the firearm to tilt further than vertical, unless the shooter’s body touches the grip of firearm.
..covers offset amount so I see these changes as a good thing.

But the Preface paragraph to '8 Equipment Rules' is '8.1 Firearms General' that MVS quoted in post #3 is so vague as to be nearly un-understandable and unenforceable.
- IDPA, 'If you wouldn't carry it in public to defend yourself, you can't shoot or use it in a Defensive Pistol division for competition.'
--Me- I shoot a Beretta 92, but it is a full size gun and I carry an M&P compact. So now I can't shoot a 92 in idpa? I am pretty sure they don't mean that but....
- IDPA, '[1] Another criterion used to assess gear will be to ask how this would appear to patrons in a local shopping mall or supermarket in regions where open carry is not permitted. If you can conceal your pistol holster with a light windbreaker and comfortably draw your pistol while seated in an automobile with bucket seats, your holster is probably okay. [2] -- Reference: [1] & [2] IDPA Official Rulebook 10-26-96'.
--Me- Who is going to decide 'how this would appear to patrons'? Also, even my compact is a pain to deal with in our 15 Mustang or in our 19 Stingray. The 92 I never even try in those cars. In our Honda Pilot the compact is fine but I usually pull the 92 from the holster and put it in the center console. So to me all this is very subjective is going to be decided by one person who could be having a bad day. And what is this reference to 'IDPA Official Rulebook 10-26-96'. An official rulebook from 27 years ago?
- IDPA, 'Equipment Guidelines: Gear permitted for Defensive Pistol competition must be specifically designed for everyday carry (NOT for range or competition use)...'
--Me- Who will, and how will, he/she decide if something was 'specifically designed for everyday carry...'?
I see their intent, and applaud it, but am concerned about how the new rules will be administered. For those of you who have been shooting idpa longer than I, how have Qs on equipment been decided in the past. Does one get told about it, but allowed to shoot today w/ a warning not to show up with it next match? Or does one get sent home if it can't be fixed right now?

... and don't forget that AIWB isn't allowed at certain ranges/clubs, even though it passes pretty much all of those criteria.

100570

[CraigS]

More looking at this rule;
'8.5.1.13 When viewed from the front, a holster may not extend away from the belt more than the width of a spare magazine tube or reload device (of the firearm being used) or cause the firearm to tilt further than vertical, unless the shooter’s body touches the grip of firearm.'
The problem starts when the gun is lowered so it meets this rule.
'8.5.1.12 All IDPA legal holsters must hold the butt of the firearm clearly above the top of the belt'
That puts the grip (the top edge as it sits in the holster) just a little higher than the belt. Now the space that used to exist above the belt between the grip and one's body that allowed one to push the thumb down and get a good grip is filled in by stuff. So looking at a lot of different holsters, there are few that the belt is the outermost part closest to the gun. Most have the belt go through loops so the belt is next to the body and there are parts of the holster between the belt and the gun. Some holsters there is just a layer of kydex (1/8 inch or less) between belt and gun, some have a 3/16 to 1/4inch of molded plastic that screws go through into another 3/16 to 1/4 inch of plastic that is part of the holster body w/ the metal pieces for the screws to engage molded in. So we have at least 3/8 inch of plastic between belt and gun. And some have a quick release setup that adds a bunch more plastic between belt and gun. If a mag is 5/8 inch (picked a # for discussion) thick, that 3/8 inch of plastic leaves just 1/4 inch to get my thumb in. I played around for about 3 hours this afternoon screwing together a lot of different combinations of holster and holster mount parts and some pieces of kydex. So how is this 'width of a spare magazine tube' measured? BTW I am fully aware that I can raise the gun so the entire grip is above the belt and have plenty of room for my thumb. But I really like the drop and, if they allow it, I want to use it.

[JSGlock34]

Would this then permit something like the Staccato XC in CO? I seem to recall the barrel and comp are a singe piece, not an attachment.

[Mirolynmonbro]

Would this then permit something like the Staccato XC in CO? I seem to recall the barrel and comp are a singe piece, not an attachment.

It should. I think an area coordinator already approved it

[MVS]

Would this then permit something like the Staccato XC in CO? I seem to recall the barrel and comp are a singe piece, not an attachment.

It's somewhat laughable given 8.1, but yes. I saw where Matt Little said this is what he will be using.

[paraframe]

"8.5.1.13 When viewed from the front, a holster may not extend away from the belt more than the width of a spare magazine tube or reload device (of the firearm being used) or cause the firearm to tilt further than vertical, unless the shooter’s body touches the grip of firearm."

So if I am shooting my N frame, I can mount the revolver nearly 2" away from my side as that's the width of the speed loaders?

This rule seems to encourage people to compete with thicker pistols, after all, why carry a 365 or a 43x if you are going to be held to a stricter equipment standard than if you carried a 21 or a 2011?

[chances R]

So does this mean the M&P competitor isn't allowed from the start because of its name!?!

[Mirolynmonbro]

So does this mean the M&P competitor isn't allowed from the start because of its name!?!

That's not what it means

[chances R]

That's not what it means

Equipment Guidelines: Gear permitted for Defensive Pistol competition must be specifically designed for everyday carry
(NOT for range or competition use)



Just sayin'

[CraigS]

Equipment Guidelines: Gear permitted for Defensive Pistol competition must be specifically designed for everyday carry
(NOT for range or competition use)



Just sayin'

And we can know what the designer was thinking how?

[JCN]

And we can know what the designer was thinking how?

In your case you can say “I’m the designer and I designed it for every day carry so go pound sand!”

:D

[CraigS]

JCN, thanks for a great laugh.

[Archer1440]

... and don't forget that AIWB isn't allowed at certain ranges/clubs, even though it passes pretty much all of those criteria.


Y’know… this pains me to state, as an AIWB daily carrier myself, but the truth is, every time I’m RO-ing in my USPSA squad and a relative noob is on the line with an AIWB rig and a striker gun, and they do the Instagram slam after making ready, I wince more than a bit.

I do try to kindly suggest they holster more reluctantly, and sometimes they even actually listen.

I kinda get why some clubs have that sort of policy.

[Zincwarrior]

Y’know… this pains me to state, as an AIWB daily carrier myself, but the truth is, every time I’m RO-ing in my USPSA squad and a relative noob is on the line with an AIWB rig and a striker gun, and they do the Instagram slam after making ready, I wince more than a bit.

I do try to kindly suggest they holster more reluctantly, and sometimes they even actually listen.

I kinda get why some clubs have that sort of policy.

I've found the remonstration "Don't blow your B***s off. I don't have a tourniquet for that," works quite well.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

IDPA - I don't practice anymore
AIWB - Am I without balls?

[Zincwarrior]

I also like to call it "waddle and shoot"

[CraigS]

Overall these new rules, especially since they are only one year after the previous set of new rules, make me wonder about the thinking that goes into them.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

All for chasing milliseconds in a 'game' or 'sport' that pretends or pretended once to have a touch of realism to it. LOL.

[Jim Watson]

Machst nichts to me, I am living in the past of IDPA (and USPSA.)
Iron sights and straight draw. My only pistol dot is on a .22 and it is not often deployed.
I was somewhat tempted to put superfluous holes in my spare ESP but some added weight to gun and bullet softened the action enough that I am spared that fad.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've gone for a SRO on a Gen 5 MOS Glock 17 as I'm interested in the visual tech. My EDC is a Gen 3 26 with night sights. I'm not interested in all the other mods off a gun from the box. I don't chase milliseconds as my own abilities would make that ridiculous as I age. A carry RDS might be of interest but with carry frozen in NYS, not worth the money. I'm buying other hobby stuff.