View Full Version : 365 3.1 vs 3.1 with PMM
YVK gave me a homework assignment after his last range trip. Apparently, his preferred EDC load for his 365X/PMM, which is Gold Dot 124+P, didn't shoot as well at 25 yards as he would have liked. For those of you who don't know YVK, besides being impressive he is busy -- with full days of saving lives, dry firing, planning and packing for his upcoming trip to Hawaii, and planning for his summer vacation. An astute reader might note that there was no mention of live firing, and even a green Wheeler laser sighter can't tell you how well your 365 groups. So, he asked me to help him determine what was going on. After he "modified" his 365 grip to help his "trigger control" I figured he was getting desperate.
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I sent him a picture of "my modified" 365 and told him help was on the way.
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I vaguely remember throwing a 407K on my 365 slide six months or so ago, and did a preliminary zero, but I didn't remember much else about it. The magazine in it was loaded with Gold Dot 115, so I shot that first. (All shooting was by me, freestyle at 25 yards.)
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Since the group was a little right, I was curious about the 124+P Gold Dot. Here is how it shot out of the 365 with the 3.1 OEM barrel.
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Next I shot my 365X with a PMM comp and barrel with Gold Dot 124+P.
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Not as good as I hoped, so I repeated another group with the same load.
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So these two groups were very similar. Next I tried the 115 Gold Dot through the PMM pistol. So better.
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I then made a windage correction to the 365 OEM gun and shot another group with Gold Dot 124 and got this group.
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I gave it two more clicks left and shot a final group with the OEM barrel.
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So, what are my takeaways. First, there was enough consistency in the groups, I think I can conclude that the OEM barrel shoots Gold Dot 124+P better than the PMM barrel and comp does. Given what I experienced with the Macro and Spectre Comp uppers and poor accuracy with ball ammo, the OEM barrels seem more consistent with a range of loads. That also jives with what I observed with the 365XL barrels and uppers, which shoot good groups. The other thing I can conclude is YVK wasn't crazy and he can take all the tape off his 365 grip module!
The other thing I can conclude is YVK wasn't crazy
I cc'd several people on this, including my secretary, my admin dude, and my wife.
he can take all the tape off his 365 grip module!
Nope. I was thinking to put some silicone carbide under the top layer to give it some traction.
GJM really impressive trigger control at distance
Up1911Fan
01-09-2023, 06:16 PM
I'm really interested in trying one of these, but not sure how much benefit I would see since I pretty much only shoot 147gr. Any thoughts?
I'm really interested in trying one of these, but not sure how much benefit I would see since I pretty much only shoot 147gr. Any thoughts?
PMM works with and for 147 gr. I can't exactly quantify it but it does. I didn't have enough 147 with me yesterday to test for accuracy.
GJM in the name of science, can you confirm that the RSA was stock for both stock and PMM barrels?
And that there wasn’t any interference / contact of the PMM comp and the nose of the slide?
I’m fixing to test today with some 124+P but from a bench rest because I’m not patient haha.
GJM in the name of science, can you confirm that the RSA was stock for both stock and PMM barrels?
And that there wasn’t any interference / contact of the PMM comp and the nose of the slide?
I’m fixing to test today with some 124+P but from a bench rest because I’m not patient haha.
Stock RSA with both. I didn't do any particular inspection but the results are consistent between multiple guns (YVK and mine) and what I recall from shooting my PMM with GD back when I was testing the Macro.
My Mayhem barrels shoot good in the Glock but I am starting to wonder if the 3.1 365 barrel doesn't play well with comps and ports?
One more point, I am not suggesting that a comp/ports won't shoot any loads, it is just that they seem more picky as to what loads they shoot well. The 3.1 OEM barrel shoots a bunch of loads well, and that is consistent with a short barrel like on the G26.
One more point, I am not suggesting that a comp/ports won't shoot any loads, it is just that they seem more picky as to what loads they shoot well. The 3.1 OEM barrel shoots a bunch of loads well, and that is consistent with a short barrel like on the G26.
One clarifying question…
It was a comparison of an OEM 3.1 versus an aftermarket PMM barrel plus compensator, correct?
Not a comparison of a 3.1 to 3.1 OEM to OEM.
Anecdotally, the PMM setup felt less accurate than my True barrel plus AC but I didn’t quantify it.
One clarifying question…
It was a comparison of an OEM 3.1 versus an aftermarket PMM barrel plus compensator, correct?
Not a comparison of a 3.1 to 3.1 OEM to OEM.
Anecdotally, the PMM setup felt less accurate than my True barrel plus AC but I didn’t quantify it.
3.1 OEM barrel to another pistol with their 3.1 barrel and comp. PMM installed the comp and barrel in my 365X slide if that means anything.
G19Fan
01-10-2023, 12:17 PM
Argh I wanna do similiar tests now!
I can even notice the different between oem xl slides. One of mine consistently groups much tighter than any of the others
3.1 OEM barrel to another pistol with their 3.1 barrel and comp. PMM installed the comp and barrel in my 365X slide if that means anything.
That’s helpful and I’m not meaning to nitpick and there’s no way for you to know this if you didn’t install yourself, but the PMM barrel isn’t 3.1 inches. It’s probably 3.3 or so with the short threading. It’s a shorter thread than a traditional compensator to fit the JTTC Micro but its not technically a 3.1” barrel. It’s a regular P365 use barrel but the length is longer.
Argh I wanna do similiar tests now!
I can even notice the different between oem xl slides. One of mine consistently groups much tighter than any of the others
I think this is part of the confounding factor with cheap, mass produced guns...
Remember back in the day they used to peen and pinch Glock slide rails to "accurize" them? I know Johnny Glocks still does that.
Some of my P365 FCUs have a tighter slide and barrel fit than others.
So all observations have to be taken in that context and not necessarily widely applicable to others unless there's an identifiable reason for the issue (destabilization, trans-sonic, twist rate, etc).
Is it something with barrel length (probably not) or something to do with the compensator system (probably)?
And ideally, the same frame and FCU would be used for all tests which is a little more difficult with Rocksett muzzle devices.
So onward we march with data to try and come up with the "why" of things.
If I'm going to test with a bunch of things, I might start with regular old Lawman to get some prelim data.
G19Fan
01-10-2023, 02:03 PM
I think this is part of the confounding factor with cheap, mass produced guns...
Remember back in the day they used to peen and pinch Glock slide rails to "accurize" them? I know Johnny Glocks still does that.
Some of my P365 FCUs have a tighter slide and barrel fit than others.
So all observations have to be taken in that context and not necessarily widely applicable to others unless there's an identifiable reason for the issue (destabilization, trans-sonic, twist rate, etc).
Is it something with barrel length (probably not) or something to do with the compensator system (probably)?
And ideally, the same frame and FCU would be used for all tests which is a little more difficult with Rocksett muzzle devices.
So onward we march with data to try and come up with the "why" of things.
If I'm going to test with a bunch of things, I might start with regular old Lawman to get some prelim data.
Indeed all my guns are zeroes for 124 hst but one will show any ammo well the others are pickier.
I have 3 xl macros I can do tests on. Wife has her carry and training guns but will start with mine
Indeed all my guns are zeroes for 124 hst but one will show any ammo well the others are pickier.
I have 3 xl macros I can do tests on. Wife has her carry and training guns but will start with mine
I feel like there should be some things excluded from testing.
1. Cold bore / temperature of gun / barrel and ammo.
2. Bad trigger presses (since we are talking about mechanical accuracy and not our ability).
I'm going to try and do something like best 3 of 5 shots with repetition.
Will try and use a very small MOA optic.
I'll start with 124 Lawman and go from there.
G19Fan
01-10-2023, 02:34 PM
I feel like there should be some things excluded from testing.
1. Cold bore / temperature of gun / barrel and ammo.
2. Bad trigger presses (since we are talking about mechanical accuracy and not our ability).
I'm going to try and do something like best 3 of 5 shots with repetition.
Will try and use a very small MOA optic.
I'll start with 124 Lawman and go from there.
I think no cold bore (shot first shot somewhere else) and only use non hand chambered rounds). 2 moa eps carry (2 guns) one 3 moa 507k acss (one gun)
I will use either shitty Norma 124 or fiochi 124
Groups are groups. I have a general idea what my offhand accuracy at 25 will be and it the two a above are too shitty I will use better ammo.
Groups are groups. I have a general idea what my offhand accuracy at 25 will be and it the two a above are too shitty I will use better ammo.
I don't agree with "groups are groups," though. If you look at GJM's last photo there are 4 clustered and touching... and one way off high left. I wouldn't just average those rounds...
G19Fan
01-10-2023, 02:38 PM
I don't agree with "groups are groups," though. If you look at GJM's last photo there are 4 clustered and touching... and one way off high left. I wouldn't just average those rounds...
Sorry I meant as long as it groups. Meaning I would count those 4. But Norma may be 1 inch off my actual zero. But as long as all 5 rounds cluster I am happy.
Does thst make sense?
Sorry I meant as long as it groups. Meaning I would count those 4. But Norma may be 1 inch off my actual zero. But as long as all 5 rounds cluster I am happy.
Does thst make sense?
Oh yes, agree with that. It’s more a precision test than an accuracy test.
G19Fan
01-10-2023, 03:20 PM
Oh yes, agree with that. It’s more a precision test than an accuracy test.
Yah! Thanks. Will do this next range session that I remember all 3 pistols
While no one group is dispositive, especially when shot freestyle, patterns become pretty obvious to me, especially when repeated over multiple days with multiple shooters. I believe the OEM 3.1 shoots most loads well, where the PMM and Macro uppers are more load specific.
I would NOT discard the first shot from the analysis because the first round fired is likely to be hand cycled and may be the most important round fired.
At the end of the day, this is not exact science. I think of the standard of the preponderance of the evidence as opposed to known beyond any reasonable doubt.
While no one group is dispositive, especially when shot freestyle, patterns become pretty obvious to me, especially when repeated over multiple days with multiple shooters. I believe the OEM 3.1 shoots most loads well, where the PMM and Macro uppers are more load specific.
I would NOT discard the first shot from the analysis because the first round fired is likely to be hand cycled and may be the most important round fired.
At the end of the day, this is not exact science. I think of the standard of the preponderance of the evidence as opposed to known beyond any reasonable doubt.
I agree with your first point re: patterns.
I don't doubt that you're seeing what you're seeing. I'm more interested in "why?"
Because if there's a "why" then it could help problem solving.
Is the PMM causing an issue because of the comp itself? Or is it the RSA interfering with the captured part of the compensator underneath the barrel?
It it something just with the PMM or is it all compensators? Could it be mitigated with a different RSA shape and size (like the DPM system).
Re: first shot... I feel like that's conflation. You're talking about two different things. One is the mechanical accuracy and the other is the cold bore. I feel like the mechanical accuracy should be tested separate from the cold bore contribution.
Because how cold is cold bore... that matters. Like I've had a gun in the trunk and gun and ammo are at 5 degrees when shooting starts. That might not be relevant nor applicable to a gun carried warmly on body, but could be for a gun carried OWB or off body.
Limiting variables is going to be the way to get the best data and that's the way to then get to the bottom of WHY and not just WHAT.
I agree with your first point re: patterns.
I don't doubt that you're seeing what you're seeing. I'm more interested in "why?"
Because if there's a "why" then it could help problem solving.
Is the PMM causing an issue because of the comp itself? Or is it the RSA interfering with the captured part of the compensator underneath the barrel?
It it something just with the PMM or is it all compensators? Could it be mitigated with a different RSA shape and size (like the DPM system).
Re: first shot... I feel like that's conflation. You're talking about two different things. One is the mechanical accuracy and the other is the cold bore. I feel like the mechanical accuracy should be tested separate from the cold bore contribution.
Because how cold is cold bore... that matters. Like I've had a gun in the trunk and gun and ammo are at 5 degrees when shooting starts. That might not be relevant nor applicable to a gun carried warmly on body, but could be for a gun carried OWB or off body.
Limiting variables is going to be the way to get the best data and that's the way to then get to the bottom of WHY and not just WHAT.
First, I welcome all the work you may do on this. I am not suggesting what I observed should satisfy you, and you may well figure some things out that help us all to understand more. I remember telling Clusterfrack that my many Glock 20/29 pistols wouldn't run with hard cast. He initially experienced the same but went on to work out some mods that improved the reliability of the G20 enough with Lehigh penetrator bullets, such that he carried the pistol in Alaska.
Back to the first shot. I don't believe it is a cold bore issue -- I think it is an issue with a hand cycled round versus the slide cycling the next round in recoil. Mas Ayoob described this a few decades ago, and I have seen it regularly since then, especially shooting groups at 50-100 yards with Glock pistols.
First, I welcome all the work you may do on this. I am not suggesting what I observed should satisfy you, and you may well figure some things out that help us all to understand more. I remember telling Clusterfrack that my many Glock 20/29 pistols wouldn't run with hard cast. He initially experienced the same but went on to work out some mods that improved the reliability of the G20 enough with Lehigh penetrator bullets, such that he carried the pistol in Alaska.
Back to the first shot. I don't believe it is a cold bore issue -- I think it is an issue with a hand cycled round versus the slide cycling the next round in recoil. Mas Ayoob described this a few decades ago, and I have seen it regularly since then, especially shooting groups at 50-100 yards with Glock pistols.
Thanks, that's my hope and for my own curiosity because I like figuring out stuff.
First shot things: It could be BOTH. Like when I did jello penetration tests, there was a distinct velocity (and penetration) jump from cold bore to warm... especially when cold was very cold.
If it were a hand cycling thing (which could have a contribution)...
then I personally would NEVER hand cycle a defensive round, right? Why would you if you could avoid it?
Why not just take that puppy completely off the table by never doing that if possible... if it's a big contribution to inaccuracy.
My carry gun stays loaded. It would be a trivial thing to make sure it was loaded hot at the range and then use a fresh topped mag before back in holster, no?
Plus if it were hand cycled issue (which it could be) then could you release the tension by doing a press check to get the bullet to seat more squarely on the breech face and ejector?
Fixing problems is what I'm interested in, not just noticing them. But to fix them, you have to understand them. And that means experimentation with limited variables.
Couldn't we sort out if it is heat or hand cycling pretty easily. If a flyer only is observed on the first group it would suggest cold bore, and if the flyer is the first round hand cycled on every subsequent group we would think it was the hand cycling and not a cold bore?
Couldn't we sort out if it is heat or hand cycling pretty easily. If a flyer only is observed on the first group it would suggest cold bore, and if the flyer is the first round hand cycled on every subsequent group we would think it was the hand cycling and not a cold bore?
Or if the guns are shot warm and there are never any fliers…
Cold bore if starting from 5 degrees is going to take a few rounds to warm up. Especially if the ammo casings and powder themselves are also 5 degrees to start.
From what I observed with penetration, the velocities steadily increased when gun and ammo started cold-cold.
That’ll mess up a group.
Or if the guns are shot warm and there are never any fliers…
There was a time I was shooting a Glock 17 at an eight inch steel at 100 yards, and I started shooting the first hand cycled shot at a 50 yard steel, because I routinely saw deviation with the first shot at 100. Hopefully Mas will chime in. How do you mention someone?
Henry
01-10-2023, 04:55 PM
I had a PPQ that suffered "first shot syndrome." The first round out of the mag would go 6 inches high at 25 yards. It didn't matter if i used the slide release or slingshot method. The rest of the rounds were sub 2" at 25 yards. It would repeat mag after mag in my bench testing. It was not temperature related.
There was a time I was shooting a Glock 17 at an eight inch steel at 100 yards, and I started shooting the first hand cycled shot at a 50 yard steel, because I routinely saw deviation with the first shot at 100. Hopefully Mas will chime in. How do you mention someone?
As stated, I don’t doubt that was a real thing for that gun. The question is, how can you mitigate that and why would you carry a carry gun with a hand cycled first load? If that affected it to that degree. It would be an interesting thing to take your Glock and Henry’s PPQ and hand cycle the first load, but release tension by press checking and see if that helps.
Norville
01-10-2023, 05:10 PM
There was a time I was shooting a Glock 17 at an eight inch steel at 100 yards, and I started shooting the first hand cycled shot at a 50 yard steel, because I routinely saw deviation with the first shot at 100. Hopefully Mas will chime in. How do you mention someone?
Mas
JCN
GJM
I'm pretty sure Wiley Clapp was the first authority I saw mention what he called "4+1 syndrome," with the first shot going to a different POI than those which followed from a semiautomatic. The theory is that the gun is in a very slightly, subtly different battery with the first hand-cycled round compared to the automatically-cycled following shots. I've seen it a good bit in gun testing.
One of the things we supposedly pay for in high-dollar custom 1911s is fitting which will keep that from happening. That said, at Bianchi Cup when I shot it back in the day, you showed up cold and then went hot through each element of the entire 48-round stage. All strings were six shots (revolver neutral). Some shooters would load six-round mags so slide-lock would remind them to reload and so they wouldn't lose count, but others made a point of keeping the gun hot so as distances increased, they wouldn't suffer the 4+1 thing. (And also, of course, to have a fallback if they had a dud round.) And these were guys shooting top-dollar custom autos.
So, yeah, it's A Thing.
This is the rig I’m going to use for testing today.
Home made Ransom type rest.
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GJM
YVK
Here is the first round of testing.
OEM barrel above and PMM comp plus barrel below at 25 yards.
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I don’t think I need to test the PMM any more than that.
Will test the AC comp next…
GJM
YVK
Here is the first round of testing.
OEM barrel above and PMM comp plus barrel below at 25 yards.
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I don’t think I need to test the PMM any more than that.
Will test the AC comp next…
To make sure I properly understand your results, you found that the OEM barrel shoots better than the PMM barrel and comp? If so that is three different PMM barrels and comps and three different shooters, so it feels like a pattern.
psalms144.1
01-11-2023, 12:49 PM
To make sure I properly understand your results, you found that the OEM barrel shoots better than the PMM barrel and comp? If so that is three different PMM barrels and comps and three different shooters, so it feels like a pattern.I would agree, the results you guys are posting are what my friends in the FBI would call "a clue."
To make sure I properly understand your results, you found that the OEM barrel shoots better than the PMM barrel and comp? If so that is three different PMM barrels and comps and three different shooters, so it feels like a pattern.
So in the name of science I went a little further.
The OEM barrel was on my carry gun. That gun is very low round count.
The FCU I used for the PMM is many 10s of thousands of rounds and there’s a lot of slop in the slide to FCU fitment.
So I put the PMM slide on my carry lower and groups were better but still demonstrate what you had noticed.
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I think part of the lesson is that high round count cheap guns can lose accuracy….
GJM
YVK
Okay so interesting confounding variables.
Looks like the lens on the RMSx is pretty warped so depending on where I place the dot in the window it gives a different hold…
So I tried to line up with the BUIS horizon and got this…
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That’s a double on the right…
So maybe the barrel is okay….
GJM
YVK
Okay so interesting confounding variables.
Looks like the lens on the RMSx is pretty warped so depending on where I place the dot in the window it gives a different hold…
So I tried to line up with the BUIS horizon and got this…
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That’s a double on the right…
So maybe the barrel is okay….
I am distrustful of shooting pistols from a rest, to assess zero and accuracy, as my head position and other variables are different. I used to shoot groups sitting, and while that is stable, it is also different than how I grip and have my head. Now, I shoot groups freestyle with pistols, on the theory that my grip and head position is how I generally shoot a handgun, even if it introduces wobble (me).
the first round fired is likely to be hand cycled and may be the most important round fired.
I've had a lot of thoughts about that, and it came up on pistol-training.com.
I have often in the past live-cycled my carry round back into my gun at the end of a session (drop practice mag, insert real mag, shoot last practice round, holster). I am feeling better about that as a standard practice.
I've had a lot of thoughts about that, and it came up on pistol-training.com.
I have often in the past live-cycled my carry round back into my gun at the end of a session (drop practice mag, insert real mag, shoot last practice round, holster). I am feeling better about that as a standard practice.
That’s what I did today after testing. Live cycled the carry ammo back I to chamber.
I am distrustful of shooting pistols from a rest, to assess zero and accuracy, as my head position and other variables are different. I used to shoot groups sitting, and while that is stable, it is also different than how I grip and have my head. Now, I shoot groups freestyle with pistols, on the theory that my grip and head position is how I generally shoot a handgun, even if it introduces wobble (me).
I think that mistrust is well founded, especially when a lens isn’t faithful across the whole surface.
However, the mechanics are still the mechanics of the system if the sighting is consistent.
I will definitely pay more attention to where I put the dot and my head position when using the rest. If faithful, should be no different than shooting precision rifle off bags.
Let’s not discount data if it conflicts with what we want the hypothesis to be.
What I need to do is mount the EPS 2MOA to the PMM slide and try again. I have a couple of other fresh FCU. One from a P365 SAS and another from the 365-380 that might make good donors.
For the next round of testing…
I think I need to tighten up some variables.
Since it’s definitely affecting the conclusions.
Will mount up a 2 MOA dot on both a stock 365 barrel slide and on the PMM slide.
Will put them both on a low round count same lower.
Remember, my PMM shot Gold Dot 115 well, and YVK's shot S&B extremely well. Both of us were shooting five round groups, and with 124 GD, looking at just three shots would indicate something different than with five round groups. My hypothesis is not that the PMM is inaccurate, but rather it is pickier about what loads shoot, just like my experience with the Macro upper.
Remember, my PMM shot Gold Dot 115 well, and YVK's shot S&B extremely well. Both of us were shooting five round groups, and with 124 GD, looking at just three shots would indicate something different than with five round groups. My hypothesis is not that the PMM is inaccurate, but rather it is pickier about what loads shoot, just like my experience with the Macro upper.
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Except you had fliers due to physical technique and I didn’t because bench rest.
My PMM shoots +P Gold Dot well. Shot 124 gr Federal well too.
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1) how do you know we had flyers due to our technique?
2) if I showed this group with Gold Dot, it would be impressive if trimmed to only show three shots. Why aren't you shooting five round groups? Did you hand cycle the first round?
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1) how do you know we had flyers due to our technique?
2) if I showed this group with Gold Dot, it would be impressive if trimmed to only show three shots. Why aren't you shooting five round groups? Did you hand cycle the first round?
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Because with a rest, I had no fliers. Just vertical stringing.
I did not hand cycle any shots that I targeted.
I did not just shoot three rounds.
I shot many rounds of 124 Federal and zero fliers. Just vertical stringing due to optic.
I shot a number of rounds of 124 +P Gold Dot. Zero fliers. Just vertical stringing due to optic.
And when I really focused on putting the dot in the center of the window, then that was the group.
Shoot your groups again and keep track of if your fliers are first shots. Or better yet, don’t hand cycle and if you get any fliers they’re due to technique. You have good technique but you’ll never be as stable as a well rested gun.
1) how do you know we had flyers due to our technique?
2) if I showed this group with Gold Dot, it would be impressive if trimmed to only show three shots. Why aren't you shooting five round groups? Did you hand cycle the first round?
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Also, if I saw that group… I would say consider quadruple checking your optic screw length.
Because that specific type of shift often happens with screws that are just slightly bottomed out.
So the conclusion may be that your PMM slide mounted optic might be the issue rather than the barrel.
My hypothesis is not that the PMM is inaccurate, but rather it is pickier about what loads shoot, just like my experience with the Macro upper.
The part that is missing is that the hypothesis has to come with a WHY and not just a what.
Otherwise it’s just an observation and not a hypothesis.
So WHY is it picker and what is happening to make that lateral spread?
I tested your hypothesis and took out other reasons for the lateral shots by not hand cycling and using a very solid rest setup.
Which then leaves an alternate hypothesis for your results that aren’t because of the barrel.
Since you had two fliers in that group it’s likely optic shift or trigger slap.
Since I had no lateral fliers.
Does that make sense?
Now that I know where to put the dot in the window to avoid distortion I can do a 20 round group if I wanted. At no time over the course of 100 rounds of 115, 50 rounds of 124 and 20 rounds of Gold Dot did I get any lateral shots.
And you can repeat your test without a hand cycled round.
But again I think that’s a red herring because you had two rounds go lateral out of 5. Trigger is the most likely cause but could be optic shift.
I then made a windage correction to the 365 OEM gun and shot another group with Gold Dot 124 and got this group.
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I gave it two more clicks left and shot a final group with the OEM barrel.
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So I’m going to make some assumptions and please correct me if they’re wrong.
These two pictures were shot back to back with OEM barrel and 124 Gold Dot.
I’m assuming you didn’t run dry and then hand cycle for the final target.
But there’s still a way lateral shot. So either optic shift or trigger jerk because that’s the OEM barrel.
I can run a ten round group and do it on a continuous video. My barrel is fine, it seems.
Clusterfrack
01-11-2023, 07:26 PM
It’s pretty hard to diagnose someone else’s group.
Especially when we are all skilled marksmen, I think it’s better to keep the focus on what we do ourselves. Otherwise, this thread is liked to devolve into a place no one wants to go.
It’s pretty hard to diagnose someone else’s group.
Especially when we are all skilled marksmen, I think it’s better to keep the focus on what we do ourselves. Otherwise, this thread is liked to devolve into a place no one wants to go.
I guess, but I think you may be missing the point.
I think GJM is a better group shooter than me. Hands down.
That’s why I didn’t shoot it freestyle.
Because I did not think I could do it without introducing a trigger input variable.
So I shot it bench rested. And not only did I shoot it bench rested, but I CLAMPED the bottom of the gun in a vise to prevent any trigger deflection from moving the gun.
This isn’t me saying “I’m a better marksman.”
Not at all. I think GJM is a MUCH better group shooter. I don’t have the discipline to shoot slowly.
So I knew I needed help and shot my groups with an aid that took trigger input out of the group.
And all I was left with was vertical stringing from the optic.
It’s not a me marksman versus him marksman.
It’s a supported, rested group avoiding lateral deflection.
So if an unsupported group has random left fliers with OEM barrel and PMM barrel… trigger is most likely. Could be optic. Could be hand cycling.
But it’s not inherent in the PMM barrel because over hundreds of rounds today, no lateral fliers with any ammo. Because I shot with the trigger removed from the variables.
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