Maintaining effects of adrenaline during a heightened situation

[StainlessSteel215]

Depending on the severity of my interpretation of a situation....I tend to get tight, breathing gets fast, restricted, and heavy....and once the adrenaline starts pumping I have to talk myself into stay calm because I tend to get jumpy BEFORE anything actually happens. Ive done this since a teenager, its better now as a 30 yr old adult at 6'1 225lbs who carries himself just fine but still happens.

Perfect example, I work in an urban northeast area which for those who dont know is a pretty rough city. I carpool with a a buddy and when its my turn to drive, I double park outside of his building and wait.....on a bad street.

I keep my G26 in the car on those days that I drive. Our lot is fenced and guarded with security employees, so I am never concerned about break-ins etc.

Just last week....Im waiting in my truck....windows down like I always do with my G26 loaded and sitting next to my in my center console lid. 2 shady guys approach the sidewalk Im parked next to, yelling at eachother and beefing just feet from my truck. The one guy in partiuclar was very agitated and stopped about 5 feet from the front of my truck and starts loudly trash talking his buddy next to him, in his face and curse words flying fast & loud (they were both scrappy, missing teeth and appeared possibly under an influence) and the dominant guy was very snappy.

Well, it continued for a full minute or two directly in front of me and he kept staring at me as he did it...almost to test if he was getting a scared reaction from me and he smacked the other guy and talked shit to him. Then he stopped and just grilled me for a good 5-6 seconds. Thats when the adrenaline started pumping hard and I considered what his intentions were...and whether I should have reached for the G26 to have in hand...just in case.

Seconds late, as it turns out, they started walking away still yelling at eachother all the way down the street. And I had to sit, calmly, and return to normal breathing. I did not display one ounce of fear despite my heart beating out of my chest and my chest breathing heavily. I returned my stare right back to him (with sunglasses on) as to let him know I was ready for whatever he was going to do.

I just wish I could control the effects of adrenaline it better so that if I did have to make a move, I wouldnt have a hiccup or a freeze due to my body going haywire. I just cant seem to control the tight breathing. Guess that all comes with exposing myself to more stressful experiences.

[Kyle Reese]

Sometimes the best way to avoid escalating a bad situation is to disengage from it.

[StainlessSteel215]

No offense Fred but thats just not an answer that addresses the situation at all. I had no choice but to sit and wait for my carpool buddy to exit his building. I wasnt going to drive off, wait around the corner like a weirdo....and come back once they left. I just wish I had better control over my response to a situation that in the end wasnt anything serious...but at the time I was fueled up and ready for anything to pop off.

[Kyle Reese]

No offense Fred but thats just not an answer that addresses the situation at all. I had no choice but to sit and wait for my carpool buddy to exit his building. I wasnt going to drive off, wait around the corner like a weirdo....and come back once they left. I just wish I had better control over my response to a situation that in the end wasnt anything serious...but at the time I was fueled up and ready for anything to pop off.

Wow. Sounds like you handled it like a champ.

[Le Français]

Wow. Sounds like you handled it like a champ.

Well played.

[StainlessSteel215]

So...I get mocked with sarcastic responses for a posting an honest and valid situation?

[breakingtime91]

Honestly from personal experience(two deployments to afghan) you have to realize what you do in a situation and expect it. Your never gonna get rid of your bodies natural reaction, just try to recognize what happens to your body and register it as normal and concentrate on the threat. Best advice I ever got
was make a decision, good or bad, a bad decision is still better than not making one at all.


hope this helps

[peterb]

From other stressful situations(fire & EMS work, flying, etc.), I've found that it helps to start running my mental checklists: If X, then A, B, C... If Y, then Q, R,S...

Mental rehearsal and running through "what ifs?" can help. A lot of stress comes from not knowing what to do. Having a plan -- even an imperfect one -- is much better than freezing because you're brainlocked.

Training with realistic scenarios is a huge help, but that can be hard to find.

[Kyle Reese]

So...I get mocked with sarcastic responses for a posting an honest and valid situation?

It sounds like you just want people to validate and praise your actions.

"I returned my stare right back to him (with sunglasses on) as to let him know I was ready for whatever he was going to do"

Say these 2 guys feel froggy and want to bring the fight to you. You now have a potential lethal force encounter when there didn't need to be one.

Be thankful that this encounter ended without any parties involved escalating it, and possibly ending in legal/civil problems for you.

[StainlessSteel215]

Well, Fred, to play devil's advocate I strongly believe that was EXACTLY what the guy who was casing me was looking for....a weakness.

Perhaps if I acted sheepish or rolled up my window that would be a signal for him to provoke me ya know? Just laying out all possible scenarios here. Thanks guys who contributed your feedback on those sort of stress management situations. I REALLY want to improve on that

[DocGKR]

Staring down people can needlessly turn a simple situation into a more complex confrontation. You are in a large mobile vehicle...use that to your advantage. Put it in gear, role your windows up. Back-up a bit to keep the threat in front of you--if you need to, you can always use the vehicle as a weapon or escape route. Better yet, avoid an escalation by driving away; then go around the block to return and pick-up your friend.

[bassmcqueen]

Staring down people can needlessly turn a simple situation into a more complex confrontation. You are in a large mobile vehicle...use that to your advantage. Put it in gear, role your windows up. Back-up a bit to keep the threat in front of you--if you need to, you can always use the vehicle as a weapon or escape route. Better yet, avoid an escalation by driving away; then go around the block to return and pick-up your friend.

THIS exactly!

[StainlessSteel215]

I see the other side of this story guys, thanks. But again I plan to improve on actual situations where the juice is flowing and Im forced to either remain calm..or act. In this case, Im disappointed that I let myself get wound up so tight and ready to act over really nothing.

[LOKNLOD]

If you're worried about giving an appearance of weakness, pull your phone to your ear, loudly say "Okay, okay, i'm coming already!" and pull off quickly. No weakness, exited the situation, and didn't have to feel like you were acting like a "weirdo" by bugging out.

[ToddG]

Staring down people can needlessly turn a simple situation into a more complex confrontation. You are in a large mobile vehicle...use that to your advantage. Put it in gear, role your windows up. Back-up a bit to keep the threat in front of you--if you need to, you can always use the vehicle as a weapon or escape route. Better yet, avoid an escalation by driving away; then go around the block to return and pick-up your friend.

This, this, this. Saying you didn't want to drive around the corner because you'd "look like a weirdo" tells me you didn't really think the guys were a serious threat. I sincerely doubt you were willing to risk your life over a parking spot.

And to echo something that has been said already, you may want to look into that whole stare-down thing. In many cultures -- including many gang cultures -- a hard stare is a challenge and essentially an invitation to aggression. There's a line between demonstrating calm confidence and pissing someone off.

[LittleLebowski]

Staring down people can needlessly turn a simple situation into a more complex confrontation.

This happened to FredM and I late at night in VA Beach on the way to a Kyle Defoor carbine class. We were being obviously stared down by a car full thuggish looking guys. We ignored their challenging stares, obeyed the speed limit, and did not engage. It would have been very ugly for them if we had needed to physically engage, of course.

[LOKNLOD]

And to echo something that has been said already, you may want to look into that whole stare-down thing. In many cultures -- including many gang cultures -- a hard stare is a challenge and essentially an invitation to aggression. There's a line between demonstrating calm confidence and pissing someone off.

Plus, if you've got on dark shades, it's not impossible to give the appearance of shifting and diverting your attention while still watching closely. It doesn't take much to simulate fiddling with the radio or smartphone while still watching the dudes like a hawk. If you've got two pissed off guys in front of your truck the last thing you need to invite is the "What are YOU looking at, mo'fawkkah, you gotta problem??" response.

[Kyle Reese]

This happened to FredM and I late at night in VA Beach on the way to a Kyle Defoor carbine class. We were being obviously stared down by a car full thuggish looking guys. We ignored their challenging stares, obeyed the speed limit, and did not engage. It would have been very ugly for them if we had needed to physically engage, of course.

What a night that was!

[NEPAKevin]

IIRC, one of Dave Grossman's books, possibly On Killing?, has some good information on the effects of adrenaline.

[Sparks2112]

William April's class was excellent regarding this. After the military when I worked a lot of bar security I had the "I don't want them to think I'm a chump" mentality, and caused a lot of needless encounters because of it. Being robocop is never a good play, and hurting people tends to leave a psychological scar that can be hard to deal with. Now I just play the jovial fat guy, people can think whatever they want about me, as long as I avoid the encounter what do I care.

To answer your question, when you have a plan in place it cuts down on the whole adrenaline thing, and if you don't have to deploy said plan even better.

[DocGKR]

"But again I plan to improve on actual situations where the juice is flowing and Im forced to either remain calm..or act. In this case, Im disappointed that I let myself get wound up so tight and ready to act over really nothing."

Then put yourself into safe, monitored environments where you can learn to deal with this. You are a 30 y/o man, not a callow teenager. Try shooting some pistol competitions, as well as get involved with some form of marshal arts competition. DEFINITELY take a SouthNarc ECQC class!!!

[StainlessSteel215]

See now we're talking...again I appreciate the productive feedback. Ill admit, maybe its a Philly thing but I try not to let my ego cast a bigger shadow than I am ready to handle in any situation. I'm a fairly big guy....in decent shape....but what I am NOT is a toughuy with a hard-on looking to draw my pistol. Spending time in court, paying fees, missing time away from my wife and daughter and possibly going to prison is 100% NOT worth a stupid encounter.

All I know is that these 2 guys posed a threat to me when they decided to stand RIGHT next to my truck and act like toughguy assholes in front of me...particularly the one fella who was obviously the alpha....and checking me out every few seconds. I froze, hart raced, and I literally had no idea what he was trying to do or capable of in that moment. I was in a urban northeast area neighborhood....with shady characters all around me....Im exposed to it every week and I see the things that go down on corners so I was inadvertently preparing myself for anything. At the time, my mind told me just sit still...maintain your presence and dont act sheepish. Thats sort of standard protocol in urban areas in the northeast if you guys didnt know. Shady people can spot the sheep right away and THAT lets you open for a possible encounter....the way you carry yourself around here and body language is obvious. Keeping your cool and displaying street smarts is something you just have to do sometimes. Its being adaptable in your surroundings. I still talked myself away from the notion of quietly going for the pistol to have in hand just in case.

Now, being that hindsight is 20-20 I realize that you guys are absolutely right. I had the upper hand in many ways. And I probably could have taken out at LEAST one of them in hand to hand combat. I was in my truck. And I had a loaded G26 inches from my person. Instead of being clever and leaving the scene my brain said stay....breathe....and stay cool.

I just need to learn to fight through that FoF urge and wire my brain to prioritize a situation like that batter. I felt like I was gonna jump out of my skin!

[BaiHu]

Then put yourself into safe, monitored environments where you can learn to deal with this. You are a 30 y/o man, not a callow teenager. Try shooting some pistol competitions, as well as get involved with some form of marshal arts competition. DEFINITELY take a SouthNarc ECQC class!!!

This, this and this! You don't know this yet (or maybe you do), but most, if not all, of the people who have been answering you in the different threads you've started are either a) very accomplished or b) experts/trainers/operators in their field.

I am just a martial arts teacher (25 yrs study), but ECQC is the best hands on to guns on experience I could've imagined for a civilian and AFHF educated me in two days more than many local NJ instructors have in 3 years. What ToddG and SouthNarc do here is just different. Not to mention all the classes I haven't taken yet that have been recommended to you.

You might be feeling like you're being hazed, but you're not. The people here are taking their free time to make sure you don't waste your time and money chasing rainbows. I have learned and saved so much money (and spent alot on good classes and hardware) by becoming a member of this community over the last year that I feel it is my duty, as a fellow noobian, to implore you to take all of this advice as a collective and put it to good use-you will come out way ahead.

FYI: I don't think anyone's busting your chops, they're just trying to look out for you by correcting you now before you get yourself in trouble.

Lastly, IANAL (use the search function) but being from NJ, I'd be careful what you do and report on a public forum. Just sayin'.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Byron]

[Edit -- some comments removed by request]

Based on statements like this...

I probably could have taken out at LEAST one of them in hand to hand combat.
...I think you are making a lot of dangerous assumptions.

Even assuming that both men were unarmed (not an assumption I would ever make), a 2-on-1 is a nasty problem that isn't solved simply by having a gun. As other posters have said, force-on-force will show you this in quick order. ECQC specifically covers this (2 unarmed against 1 armed), not to mention fighting from the vehicle itself. I do not have a lengthy training resume against which I can compare ECQC to other FOF classes, but I can tell you that I got a lot out of it. It also broke me of a lot of assumptions and false conclusions that I used to have.

[StainlessSteel215]

Great point BaiHu...

Byron - THANK YOU.

And believe me guys, I am already reshaping my approach to responsible gun ownership and taking notes to these wonderful suggestions. Thanks guys...sounds like this ECQC suggestion is getting high marks on this forum. Much appreciated, I am making note to all of this

[TGS]

At the time, my mind told me just sit still...maintain your presence and dont act sheepish. Thats sort of standard protocol in urban areas in the northeast if you guys didnt know.

No, I guess as a resident of Trenton I didn't know. I wonder how my life would have worked out taking that stance. People usually don't fare too well when in a neighborhood staring down dudes with crown tattoos and teardrops tattooed under their eyes. They're bold enough in their actions that Trenton Police aren't even allowed to patrol certain parts of this city, so I'm not too keen on trying to scare them off by staring at them with sunglasses.


Shady people can spot the sheep right away and THAT lets you open for a possible encounter....the way you carry yourself around here and body language is obvious. Keeping your cool and displaying street smarts is something you just have to do sometimes. Its being adaptable in your surroundings. I still talked myself away from the notion of quietly going for the pistol to have in hand just in case.

(Emphasis added by me)

True, but there's a way to do it, and a way not to do it.

Also, for the life of me, I can't begin to understand the thought process that decides to implicitly challenge someone but not establish a preemptive master grip. Speak softly and carry a big stick, that whole deal.

Good on you for trying to bounce ideas off people. However, since confrontational skill sets cannot be taught over the internet, the best advice anyone here can give is to destroy any sense of ego (take this as if a friend were speaking to you: it's apparent, dude), and get in classes as soon as possible. ECQC is being held in WV next month, I believe.

[StainlessSteel215]

I appreciate that TGS, I can accept that statement for what its worth and build from that.
I might be a hardhead, but I'm not a F----ing hardhead! I listen...absorb...and build from it. As you well know as a resident, there are certain blocks and areas to avoid. Well, unfortunately when its my carpool day I cannot avoid it. But...I can certainly handle it differently next time.

Boy this is a tough bunch. But I respect that....the heroes and Yosemite Sams dont last long around these parts lol

[Sparks2112]

Every hero I ever met died in short order, being heroic. (And I'm not lessening their sacrifice as I type this) I strive for quiet professional personally. They are just as capable of heroics, and are much more likely to survive said heroics.

[StainlessSteel215]

Elegantly stated Sparks, and certainly well received.

[TCinVA]

1076

When dealing with strangers you have no idea how deep that rabbit hole goes. Don't get involved in problems you have the option to skip.

[Zhurdan]

1076

When dealing with strangers you have no idea how deep that rabbit hole goes. Don't get involved in problems you have the option to skip.

Hell, I'd say that applies to even people you DO know.

[Dr. No]

In my experience as a street cop, I get hand and leg shakes when my adrenaline dumps happen. I was involved in a 3.5 minute foot pursuit/fight and I didn't have time to think about it. For quite a few days after, however, I would get adrenaline dumps on very normal stops when I perceived any slight threat. After a while they stopped, but the only way to deal with them is to recognize them for what they are, train and have confidence in your skills, and keep in good shape.

[StainlessSteel215]

Right on guys, its really something I look forward to working through over the years now that Im aware of it. Mastering your fears and keeping the sharp edge at all times is something worth investing time into

[Chuck Haggard]

Combat breathing works. Just sayin.

[Sir Guy]

Good discussion. I'm a little late but I'll chime in. Todd brought up a good point about how eye contact is used, and how it's just as easy to accidentally escalate a situation and force a confrontation as it is to get away from one. Distance and time are your friends.

You mentioned that you didn't display any signs of fear. The majority of communication is nonverbal, and people show a lot without realizing they're doing so. I won't compare it to a game of poker as some might be wont to do, but there are some conceptual similarities. A fear response often presents as an aggressive posture. The dog that barks loudest, that whole thing.

As far as managing your adrenaline, remember that it's a physical thing, a chemical reaction. It has a lot to do with your conditioning, and as you mentioned, how often you've done it before. It brings up a good point about why a lot of good training involves what we call "stress inoculation." Critical incidents are always stressful, but they can be less so - or rather, can affect you less severely - if you plan ahead, are mentally and physically prepared, and have gone through it before.

Some of the things I teach and focus on are tactical communication, crisis intervention, and critical incident response. A way I like to phrase the concept is if you hit a patch of black ice when driving. Whether or not a driver has encountered it before, one who has been in similar out-of-control situations when driving arguably has a better reaction time than someone who hasn't driven at all. Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that one might handle it better than the other, but there's something to be said for being in similar situations.

Some mentioned getting your hand in competitive shooting. While some make vehement arguments about the distinct differences between sport shooting and defensive shooting, it will at least cancel out the similarities and allow you to become more comfortable under stress with certain aspects of shooting in general. It's better to make those stressful parts as subconscious as you can, so you can focus on the new elements presented to you under stress. If you've never done "shoot, move, communicate" in practice, then a real life shooting will be an interesting experience, to say the least. If you can at least knock out some of that in training, then it's easier to devote more mental time to the stuff you haven't before experienced.

If you've read AARs for officer involved shootings, you'll note that many successful shooters make comments like, "I don't remember aiming my sights or pressing the trigger. I just did it without thinking." All things considered, I can't say that's always a bad thing to be able to say at the end.

[StraitR]

SS

Pick up a copy of Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected by Rory Miller.

Lot's of info on violence dynamics, avoidance (absence, escape & evasion, and de-escalation), counter-ambush, breaking the freeze, the actual fight, the aftermath, legal and ethical implications. Gives a good understanding of social violence, asocial violence, and predator basics.

One of Rory's statements in the book really stuck with me, he says, and I quote, "Never, in a self-defense situation do anything half-assed. If you are going to run or hide or bluff or fight, do it with all your heart. Hesitation is failure." It's one of those "duh" things, but reading it really drove it home.

It's a good read, and I think I paid less than $10 for the Kindle edition.


Also, The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker is a worth reading. Goes into more about understanding instincts and intuition. Also available on Kindle.

[Josh Runkle]

In my experience as a street cop, I get hand and leg shakes when my adrenaline dumps happen...

While I realize that you are entirely talking about the surge of adrenaline dumping into the bloodstream, releasing its adrenergenic effects almost immediately...

...I read this the way a fifth grader would, and had a serious case of the giggles.

[Josh Runkle]

Back on topic:

Facing this similar situation in the future, you cannot be sure that there is not a third, main attacker, and that these men could just be a ruse to draw you in. That scenario has happened to me twice, and I was not alert the first time. I was DEFINITELY alert the second time.

Keeping your firearm exposed on the console (if I read correctly) is a bad move, in that the bad guy can "jump the gun" and "shoot first" before saying or acknowledging anything. Additionally, you could be pulled out of your vehicle before getting hands on the gun. Unless you absolutely have no other choice, you should try to keep the gun on your body.

Stealing some ideas from Grossman: "Fight or Flight" is really, "Fight, Flight, Freeze, Posture or Submit."

Submission is the worst of all choices, as you do what the bad guy wants, and statistically speaking, there is little chance of survival. Temporarily freezing can be natural when confronted with an unknown or unexpected scenario, such as using a little more time to work through that OODA loop "deciding", etc. Completely freezing, and becoming unwilling to make any decision in a hostile scenario will most likely end just as bad as submission (see: colorado movie theater shooting patrons). Fighting, and, more specifically, immediately committing to a fight (assuming we're talking about everything legal here, self-defense, warfare, etc) lends to much more favorable odds of victory. Flight, away from a fight, especially a fight you are not prepared or willing to fight, also tends to have very favorable odds.

...This brings us to posturing. Posturing is what you heard on the school playground all of the time during a fight. "I'm gonna hit you." "Oh, if you hit me, I'm gonna hurt you so bad, you don't even know." "Oh yeah, my buddies will kick your butt too." "You better hope my dad doesn't hear about this because after I kick your butt, he'll beat you up too...he was in 'Nam."

Remember those? Essentially one or both parties are demonstrating their unwillingness to fight. If both people are posturing, it usually ends with nothing happening that moment, and then some person puts something gross in your lunch the next day. On the other hand, in the real world, when facing a dangerous adversary, if someone gives you a look to "check" how serious and alert you are, and you give them a hard stare back, you are actually signaling your UNWILLINGNESS to fight. You are saying, "If you start something, I might respond." You're not saying, "Death is waiting for you inside this vehicle."

If you were signaling willingness to fight, you wouldn't give a stare, or say anything, you'd just ambush and start shooting (illegal in most scenarios).

Obviously, bound by the law, you MUST communicate an unwillingness to fight. So, which is smarter? Commit to an unwillingness to fight by having the bad guy see your taillights glowing in the distance, or commit to an unwillingness to fight and take the chance that he feels the same way?