Suggestions for cast/coated bullets for S&W 625 .45 ACP revolver?

[RevolverJIM]

I want to use full moon clips and a quick reload friendly bullet shape.

Accuracy is important!

Any help is appreciated.

Jim

[03RN]

Would you mind me asking on your thread if cast bullets loaded for semis will work fine with a taper crimp?

Fwiw I'll be using a lot of 200gr swc in my 625 because I've got a ton loaded up. Hopefully they load into the cylinder good

I've got some 220gr TC bullets loaded up too.

I doubt my 255gr loads will drop in as good as ball lol.

[RevolverJIM]

No problem.....we're on the same team:)

I use ammo loaded for my 1911s in the 625, so yes the taper crimp works OK.

My 625 cylinders appear to be cut so that the headspace is controlled by a shoulder in each chamber, however when I use moons it appears that the headspace "may be" controlled by the moon clip.

Bottom line, my 1911 ammo works in the 625 with or without moons but of course ejection is easier with moons.

I have tried .45 Auto Rim brass and it works fine in the 625 but moons eject more reliably and reloads are much faster/easier than with the HKS speed loaders.

Jim

[RevolverJIM]

PM sent.

[dmiculek]

oops

[dmiculek]

Taper crimp works fine. For the smoothest speedload look for a bullet without a shoulder.

https://i.imgur.com/mSYrrK3t.jpg

[camsdaddy]

Taper crimp works fine. For the smoothest speedload look for a bullet without a shoulder.

https://i.imgur.com/mSYrrK3t.jpg

These look to be Acme bullet company bullets. I’ve never used them for 45. I have used them for 9mm and 38 and have been very pleased.

[Borderland]

I use these.


https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=220&category=5&secondary=13&keywords=

I've had problems with my 625 pulling bullets. These have a small crimp groove that allows a bit of a roll crimp. I also use a Redding Profile Crimp die. Profile crimp dies provide a tighter more uniform roll type crimp and require the bullet to be seated to the correct depth in a previous operation. They are not for rimless cartridges but with a moon clip it doesn't matter as the cartridge is head spacing on the MC.

If you don't have a problem with your revolver pulling bullets then never mind.

[RevolverJIM]

Thanks, I have used Missouri Bullets in .44 and .357...need to try the .45 now:)

[Spartan1980]

The 625 headspaces on the case mouth just like the autos do. They'll even fire without a moon clip.

Reloading is a world better with full RN bullets. When I went to Nationals all I had were 200 RN with the little shoulder from Bayou Bullets. I worked up a load that seated it deep past that little shoulder and roll crimped over it. One guy on my squad said they looked like simunition rounds! That's the only load that didn't pull bullets in my three guns and at chrono it gave me two shots with identical readings and the other was 3FPS different. The chrono guy asked what powder I was running. :D

The 625 is a kinetic bullet puller. Even mil spec factory ball with sealant on the bullets pulled out. I just quit worrying about it because I don't think a crimp will ever hold it unless it's into a cannelure.

Reloading SWCs will frustrate the hell out of you compared to a full round nose. It's actually faster to drop them above the cylinder instead of guiding them in, at least for me...

[revchuck38]

I've had problems with my M22-4 pulling bullets - it's much lighter than a 625 so it's a better bullet puller. :rolleyes: I went with 225-grain RNFPs from Missouri Bullets; I just checked their website and they're no longer listed. I also use the Redding Profile Crimp die and crimp in the crimp groove. I chose those bullets so I'd have something that would have the same POI as my carry load, 230-grain HST +P.

If my geezer memory serves, I never had problems with pulled bullets in my 1917 using uncoated 230-grain RNLs.

[Borderland]

The 625 headspaces on the case mouth just like the autos do. They'll even fire without a moon clip.

Reloading is a world better with full RN bullets. When I went to Nationals all I had were 200 RN with the little shoulder from Bayou Bullets. I worked up a load that seated it deep past that little shoulder and roll crimped over it. One guy on my squad said they looked like simunition rounds! That's the only load that didn't pull bullets in my three guns and at chrono it gave me two shots with identical readings and the other was 3FPS different. The chrono guy asked what powder I was running. :D

The 625 is a kinetic bullet puller. Even mil spec factory ball with sealant on the bullets pulled out. I just quit worrying about it because I don't think a crimp will ever hold it unless it's into a cannelure.

Reloading SWCs will frustrate the hell out of you compared to a full round nose. It's actually faster to drop them above the cylinder instead of guiding them in, at least for me...

What bullet were you using if you don't mind me asking? I'm crimping over the shoulder on the 38 Short Colt I just loaded. I had hundreds of these bullets without a crimp grove. I think they are these but I wouldn't swear to it.
https://bayoubullets.net/38-357-124-gr-rn/

Are you sure about the head spacing on the case mouth? The moon clip limits the distance the case can go into the cylinder. I think I measured it once an determined the case mouth couldn't reach the shoulder of the cylinder ring with the clips I use. But I could be wrong. ;)

Doesn't matter because it's not terribly important.

[Borderland]

I've had problems with my M22-4 pulling bullets - it's much lighter than a 625 so it's a better bullet puller. :rolleyes: I went with 225-grain RNFPs from Missouri Bullets; I just checked their website and they're no longer listed. I also use the Redding Profile Crimp die and crimp in the crimp groove. I chose those bullets so I'd have something that would have the same POI as my carry load, 230-grain HST +P.

If my geezer memory serves, I never had problems with pulled bullets in my 1917 using uncoated 230-grain RNLs.

Yeah, it's a mystery for sure. If it was a problem we would have heard about before now. The 625 is a bullet puller though.

[RevolverJIM]

I just measured the loaded overall length of the cylinder of one of my 625 PC revolvers with:

Hornady Critical Duty loaded in the cylinder with OUT moons...

.45 Auto Rim brass in the cylinder........

Loaded moon clip in the cylinder......

The overall length with Critical Duty head spacing on the case mouth was .010" shorter than the Auto Rim brass or the loaded moons. So that means that the shoulder cuts in the chambers were deeper than optimum, causing excess head space if moons are not used.
The Auto Rim brass and loaded moon clip were with in .001" of each other.

If I could find speed loaders that worked well with AR brass I would try that for a while. The HKS loaders allow too much wiggle room suit me.

[Half Moon]

Are you sure about the head spacing on the case mouth? The moon clip limits the distance the case can go into the cylinder. I think I measured it once an determined the case mouth couldn't reach the shoulder of the cylinder ring with the clips I use. But I could be wrong. ;)

Doesn't matter because it's not terribly important.

The head spacing is variable depending on generation. 1917's are on spec but at least some of the later 625 dashes have the chamber shoulder cut a little deeper leading to unreliability without clips. I can't remember which dash but vaguely recall it being the Model of 1988. Not sure if Smith returned to the earlier headspace cut later or not.

[Borderland]

The head spacing is variable depending on generation. 1917's are on spec but at least some of the later 625 dashes have the chamber shoulder cut a little deeper leading to unreliability without clips. I can't remember which dash but vaguely recall it being the Model of 1988. Not sure if Smith returned to the earlier headspace cut later or not.

I've shot my 625 JM without the clips. It works.

[Spartan1980]

What bullet were you using if you don't mind me asking? I'm crimping over the shoulder on the 38 Short Colt I just loaded. I had hundreds of these bullets without a crimp grove. I think they are these but I wouldn't swear to it.
https://bayoubullets.net/38-357-124-gr-rn/

Are you sure about the head spacing on the case mouth? The moon clip limits the distance the case can go into the cylinder. I think I measured it once an determined the case mouth couldn't reach the shoulder of the cylinder ring with the clips I use. But I could be wrong. ;)

Doesn't matter because it's not terribly important.

This was the bullet.

https://bayoubullets.net/45-acp-200-gr-rn/

And yes. I've had three different 625s and I fired a full cylinder from each gun just for curiosity's sake. They all went bang.

Most moon clips aren't that tight but the good wire EDM'd ones can be and are the best when they are holding the cases ridgid so they don't flop around. In .45ACP the extractor groove has dimensional specs per SAMMI but .38 Special doesn't. Manufacturers just do what they want with .38. I ran Starline brass in .38SC because their .38SC brass is identical to their .38SP brass except for length and headstamp. Moonclips are a lot more critical on the .38 because of this. I forget the specifics, but a couple would work with my Hearthco clips and another was iffy and another was a complete no go. In .45 you don't have all that business going on.

[revchuck38]

IIRC, the literature that came with my 22-4 stated that clips were required and that the chambers weren't designed to headspace the cartridges. I've never tried shooting it without the clips. Since I bought it specifically to shoot with full moon clips, it doesn't bother me.

[358156hp]

The head spacing is variable depending on generation. 1917's are on spec but at least some of the later 625 dashes have the chamber shoulder cut a little deeper leading to unreliability without clips. I can't remember which dash but vaguely recall it being the Model of 1988. Not sure if Smith returned to the earlier headspace cut later or not.

When JD Jones was the hunting editor for American Handgunner he took S&W to task for the quality of the 625, Model of 1988, he published a long list of issues, including cutting the chambers too deep in the cylinders, causing headspace issues unless moon clips were used. The article was titled something like "The Gun S&W Couldn't Fix", or something similar. JD was very popular in those days, and refused to back down, and I think S&W finally fixed the gun to JDs satisfaction after several trips back to the factory.

I'd love to find that issue of AH again. Magazines were different back then.

[willie]

Bullet pull force brought or tension holding the bullet in the case is a factor that the reloader can control. It depends on case thickness, bullet diameter, degree of resizing by size die, diameter of case expander, and crimp. Military cases are thicker than commercial cases. Cast bullets must be at least .452. .453 works well. A too large diameter expander will inhibit achieving case tension.

Much variation exist in die sets. Degree of diameter reduction by size die and degree of expander diameter are variables. Lee makes an outstanding taper crimp die that will complete the last step better than others. Also, Lee makes collet type crimp dies for some handgun calibers. 45 ACP is not one but would be a custom offering.

Maybe I was lucky. After I began to us thicker cases and .452/.453 bullets and a homemade crimp die, I had no trouble with bullets jumping the case in the Model 25 .45ACP. I recommend the Lyman M die. Also, certain machinists will make custom expanders. Lee will make a tighter size die. Check out Lee collet crimp dies.

[03RN]

The 625 headspaces on the case mouth just like the autos do. They'll even fire without a moon clip.

Reloading is a world better with full RN bullets. When I went to Nationals all I had were 200 RN with the little shoulder from Bayou Bullets. I worked up a load that seated it deep past that little shoulder and roll crimped over it. One guy on my squad said they looked like simunition rounds! That's the only load that didn't pull bullets in my three guns and at chrono it gave me two shots with identical readings and the other was 3FPS different. The chrono guy asked what powder I was running. :D

The 625 is a kinetic bullet puller. Even mil spec factory ball with sealant on the bullets pulled out. I just quit worrying about it because I don't think a crimp will ever hold it unless it's into a cannelure.

Reloading SWCs will frustrate the hell out of you compared to a full round nose. It's actually faster to drop them above the cylinder instead of guiding them in, at least for me...

I guess my next order will be for RN or TC

[Spartan1980]

I guess my next order will be for RN or TC

If you are wanting to cut time from reloads there's no better bullet than a 230 RN. They find their own way in and are heavy enough to go all the way home almost all of the time. When they land wrong on the cylinder a little shake will usually make them drop right in. They actually are the easy button in this regard.

Edit to add: This is when using moon clips obviously.

[Skullybones]

These guys are great and another source for coated bullets. https://www.egglestonmunitions.com/shop.html#!/45/c/10873436

Chris is very friendly and the bullets have always been consistent and accurate.
I’m in no way affiliated though have received a few sample packs free of charge many years ago, also bought many thousand. (mostly 9mm)

[03RN]

So 200gr swc absolutely suck with moon clips. That's just with practice in the basement. I'm glad I've got other choices that seem to work fine.
I placed a pretty big order from revolver supply for tools and clips. They took forever to ship so I ordered 10 of the moon clips from TK that have the notch thingy that allows for use without tools.

They seem to work really good. Are they inherently weaker than normal ones?

Also, .45 moon clips fit it k frame speed loader pouches

[358156hp]

Consider something like an RFN (Round Flat Nose) design too: https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-acp-lbt-200gr-rfp-pb/

[jtcarm]

When JD Jones was the hunting editor for American Handgunner he took S&W to task for the quality of the 625, Model of 1988, he published a long list of issues, including cutting the chambers too deep in the cylinders, causing headspace issues unless moon clips were used. The article was titled something like "The Gun S&W Couldn't Fix", or something similar. JD was very popular in those days, and refused to back down, and I think S&W finally fixed the gun to JDs satisfaction after several trips back to the factory.

I'd love to find that issue of AH again. Magazines were different back then.

I remember that article. He referred to the gun as a boat anchor.

For the rare occasion I use bullets cast by someone else, I use Brazos Bullets.

[358156hp]

I remember that article. He referred to the gun as a boat anchor.

For the rare occasion I use bullets cast by someone else, I use Brazos Bullets.

JD and Larry Kelly (Magnaport) were two of my favorite writers. And they didn't take crap off'n no one.:)

[03RN]

Alright, I'm on the hunt for new bullets so bump.

I'm thinking about doing 200gr RN over 230gr RN just due to cost
$204 for 1500 or 2100

Is the extra weight of the 230gr really that helpful for reloading?

[RevolverJIM]

I just got some MBC 200 gr. RNFP cast bullets to try. Will report results as soon as I have something to report.

[Borderland]

Alright, I'm on the hunt for new bullets so bump.

I'm thinking about doing 200gr RN over 230gr RN just due to cost
$204 for 1500 or 2100

Is the extra weight of the 230gr really that helpful for reloading?

I've always used 230 grn because that's the weight that was originally used for the cartridge. I still use 230 for all of my pistols. I went to 200 grn to see if it would stop my 625 from pulling bullets. It didn't until I started roll crimping the bullets. If I started using lighter bullets in my pistols I would probably have to change recoil springs.

I don't think it matters in the reloading process, if that's what you're asking.

[revchuck38]

Nerd alert!


I've always used 230 grn because that's the weight that was originally used for the cartridge.

.45 ACP was originally loaded with a 200-grain JRN for the 1905. The 230-grain load came later. That said, I use the 230s in all my .45 ACP loads except for my M22-4, where I use 225-grain RNFPs so I can crimp them in the crimp groove.

[03RN]

How much velocity loss should I expect in my .45colt mountain gun milled for moon clips and shooting ACP?

I shot the other day and was losing 200fps +/- compared to 4-5" 1911s.

Quite honestly it's not a big deal because I only got it milled for playing in gun games and plan on using.45 colt when carrying it.

Just curious

[willie]

How much velocity loss should I expect in my .45colt mountain gun milled for moon clips and shooting ACP?

I shot the other day and was losing 200fps +/- compared to 4-5" 1911s.

Quite honestly it's not a big deal because I only got it milled for playing in gun games and plan on using.45 colt when carrying it.

Just curious

I can't imagine that much velocity loss. I would have guessed no more than 50 fps compared to the 1911. Something is amiss.

Measure the revolver fired ACP cases and compare them to the same shot in your 1911. Also compare this reading to diameter of fired Long Colt cases. In the revolver fired cases, a smoky black residue from burned powder would indicate that cases are not expanding enough to seal chambers. Hence some gas is not propelling the bullet. The Long Colt chambers are larger in diameter than 45 ACP chambers in a ACP revolver made for this caliber.

This smoky residue is seen in fired 45 Colt cases when the powder charge is too light. I predict that increasing the ACP powder charge will resolve this by making the cases expand enough to seal chambers.

[revchuck38]

The .45 ACP case is .004" narrower and .387" shorter than the .45 Colt case. Googling chamber dimensions showed .483-.488" for .45 Colt and .4744" at the case mouth and .4796" at the base for .45 ACP. That's a lot of room for gas to escape around both the case and the bullet on firing. Note that it's common to find a 30-50 fps loss firing .38 Special ammo from a .357 Mag chamber compared to a .38 chamber, and that's with a .1" longer chamber in the .357 and all other dimensions the same. Plus, there's some velocity loss due to the barrel/cylinder gap. My guess is that that's what's causing the velocity difference.

[03RN]

Fired cases from both ACP and colt at the mouth measure 0.478.

I don't have any fired brass from my 1911s

[Velo Dog]

How much velocity loss should I expect in my .45colt mountain gun milled for moon clips and shooting ACP?

I shot the other day and was losing 200fps +/- compared to 4-5" 1911s.

Similar velocity loss in this video. Trigger Warning, contains Clear Ballistics gel and Strasbourg references


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygeWtwdVju8

.45 GAP might actually give higher velocity than standard pressure .45 ACP


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPW4HKK3Xrs

[revchuck38]

Trigger Warning, contains Clear Ballistics gel and Strasbourg references.

🤣

[03RN]

I watch most of his videos and that's actually what prompted my post.