Budget/value AR Purchase Question

[dogcaller]

I have a good friend, recently retired teacher who is wanting to purchase an AR. Actually, it’s his wife that wants them to get one (!). He is a pretty typical shooter—doesn’t shoot a ton but is very responsible. I don't expect it will be a hard-use rifle, but I obviously want him to buy quality. I do recognize that “budget” and “value” do not mean the same thing. I’m asking for recommendations for the best budget trifle that is also a value.


Price wise, this is hard to bear, but is it good enough? https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-w-mbus-sight-set3.html

Other options? Thanks!

[Navin Johnson]

I have a good friend, recently retired teacher who is wanting to purchase an AR. Actually, it’s his wife that wants them to get one (!). He is a pretty typical shooter—doesn’t shoot a ton but is very responsible. I don't expect it will be a hard-use rifle, but I obviously want him to buy quality. I do recognize that “budget” and “value” do not mean the same thing. I’m asking for recommendations for the best budget trifle that is also a value.


Price wise, this is hard to bear, but is it good enough? https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-w-mbus-sight-set3.html

Other options? Thanks!


Just searched “budget AR” using the search function in the upper corner and found much info. Some of it is a couple years old but I doubt the answer has changed much. It might be faster to go this route as it will take several days to get SME’s to answer.

Usually it’s best to give a total budget as one must generally include an optic magazines, 3 to 5 cases of ammo, and probably a training class or two also probably a light and a sling.

Less expensive rifles are generally going to wear out their parts faster and going to require replacement so sometimes one is not saving money to not invest at the beginning. Also, buying a quality rifle allows you to trade or sell it down the road and retain much more value, if your needs change.

[HCM]

I have a good friend, recently retired teacher who is wanting to purchase an AR. Actually, it’s his wife that wants them to get one (!). He is a pretty typical shooter—doesn’t shoot a ton but is very responsible. I don't expect it will be a hard-use rifle, but I obviously want him to buy quality. I do recognize that “budget” and “value” do not mean the same thing. I’m asking for recommendations for the best budget trifle that is also a value.


Price wise, this is hard to bear, but is it good enough? https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-w-mbus-sight-set3.html

Other options? Thanks!

Number one recommendation for a budget AR continues to be the smith and Wesson M&P 15 sport II.

PSA has gotten better, they are now making their own barrels, receivers and rails, but they are still using substandard, imported springs and small parts.

I don’t have first-hand experience, but I’ve heard good things about the IWI ARs for the money.

Aero Precision has some of the same issues as PSA.

[MistWolf]

Colt. Chances are good it'll shoot good right out of the box, although it should be cleaned of the factory preservative and lubed first.

Palmetto isn't a good starter AR. If the buyer isn't experienced with troubleshooting or doesn't know what to look for in an AR, the Palmetto can be a frustrating time consuming money pit.

Too many other AR makers don't use top notch springs. Certain springs, which are common failure points, can be frustrating to troubleshoot for the neophyte.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I bought that same upper like 3 years ago. Its been totally reliable and more accurate than you would believe. I really like the pencil profile of the barrel, good for a lightweight build. It spent some time as dedicated 22lr upper, and I've since rebuilt it back to stock and it is my "backup AR" upper.

I hate the lack of a continuous top rail and dislike how skinny the rail is and lack of 45deg mlok slots. My handguard bolts were missing loctite when I got it. The barrel nut was ridiculously hard to remove.

I also have a lower from them similar to the one on that rifle and it has been fine as well, though with more upper/lower play than my more expensive AR's.

Low sample size and all, but I think PSA is the way to go for a budget AR.

[Paul Blackburn]

Number one recommendation for a budget AR continues to be the smith and Wesson M&P 15 sport II.

PSA has gotten better, they are now making their own barrels, receivers and rails, but they are still using substandard, imported springs and small parts.

I don’t have first-hand experience, but I’ve heard good things about the IWI ARs for the money.

Aero Precision has some of the same issues as PSA.

How can you tell if the small parts and springs are imported?

[Darth_Uno]

I’m sure you’ve seen this thread. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?53565-Inexpensive-ARs)

Buy a complete lower at your LGS https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1024035719?pid=881307, add this https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper/ and a trigger, and for about 2x as much you have a weapon that’s 10x better.

I’ve long ago abandoned trying to be any kind of firearm proselytizer. If you only want to pay $600, you’re going to get a $600 rifle and everything that does (and doesn’t) come along with that. Truth is, these budget weapons are probably ok. And by that I mean, “just ok”. If you don’t use them hard or often you’re not really setting yourself up for failure, you’re just not exactly set up for success either.

[HCM]

How can you tell if the small parts and springs are imported?



You can see the finish looks “off” vs quality springs. Otherwise, you can’t, can’t that’s what companies like AERO and PSA are betting on.

[DDTSGM]

On M4C, guys who do work for other manufacturers are quick to point out that PSA buys reject parts. Unsurprisingly, when asked for proof it's crickets. The only 'substantive' reply I've every received is it's common knowledge within the industry..

If you look at the data, PSA makes and sells a lot of AR's: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/2020-annual-firearms-manufacturers-and-export-report-afmer

BCM - 5,681 rifles mfg - 17,130 misc f/a mfg (serial numbered lowers, etc.)

Colt - 23,995 rifles mfg - 1263 misc f/a mfg (serial numbered lowers, etc.)

PSA = 60,438 rifles mfg - 289,537 misc f/a mfg (serial numbered lowers, etc.)

Aside from that, they probably sell several times the number of LPK's that, as an example, BCM does.

There are obviously QC problems that can go along with quantity sales; OTOH, I'd imagine that if you were buying triggers and hammers from Schmid, that guy that buys 60,000 probably gets a better price then the guy buying 5,000

PSA and BCM (as an example) obviously have different business models. PSA is figuratively making Ford Focuses, and BCM is making Mercedes A Classes. At the end of the day they both get you there. The Indian still makes more difference than the arrow.

[Paul Blackburn]

Speaking of rejects, the other day Mike at SOLGW said in a recent podcast that they reject 10% of incoming gas tubes for being out of spec.

This is why it's a better idea to only buy from reputable brands with known QC standards regardless of whether its a complete gun or parts.

[HCM]

On M4C, guys who do work for other manufacturers are quick to point out that PSA buys reject parts. Unsurprisingly, when asked for proof it's crickets. The only 'substantive' reply I've every received is it's common knowledge within the industry..

If you look at the data, PSA makes and sells a lot of AR's: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/2020-annual-firearms-manufacturers-and-export-report-afmer

BCM - 5,681 rifles mfg - 17,130 misc f/a mfg (serial numbered lowers, etc.)

Colt - 23,995 rifles mfg - 1263 misc f/a mfg (serial numbered lowers, etc.)

PSA = 60,438 rifles mfg - 289,537 misc f/a mfg (serial numbered lowers, etc.)

Aside from that, they probably sell several times the number of LPK's that, as an example, BCM does.

There are obviously QC problems that can go along with quantity sales; OTOH, I'd imagine that if you were buying triggers and hammers from Schmid, that guy that buys 60,000 probably gets a better price then the guy buying 5,000

PSA and BCM (as an example) obviously have different business models. PSA is figuratively making Ford Focuses, and BCM is making Mercedes A Classes. At the end of the day they both get you there. The Indian still makes more difference than the arrow.

Keep in mind things change.

PSA absolutely did get where they are today buying other companies reject parts and selling them as PSA “PTAC” and “Freedom” parts / guns.

They also had very inconsistent assembly.

I don’t know that either one of these is still true today.

BCM is not making Mercedes. They are making Toyotas.

KAC would be a better analogy for Mercedes.,

[TOTS]

Keep in mind things change.

PSA absolutely did get where they are today buying other companies reject parts and selling them as PSA “PTAC” and “Freedom” parts / guns.

They also had very inconsistent assembly.

I don’t know that either one of these is still true today.

BCM is not making Mercedes. They are making Toyotas.

KAC would be a better analogy for Mercedes.,
Could I offer that Colts are the Toyotas, BCM are Mercedes, and KAC/ Hodge etc, are the tactical Ferraris and Lambos? Overseas, Mercedes cars and trucks are very utilitarian; cabs, work trucks, etc.

[HCM]

Could I offer that Colts are the Toyotas, BCM are Mercedes, and KAC/ Hodge etc, are the tactical Ferraris and Lambos? Overseas, Mercedes cars and trucks are very utilitarian; cabs, work trucks, etc.

Can you own an AR-15 in those places ?

Ferraris and Lambos are useless toys.

KAC / Hodge guns are made to be hard use working tools. Though in the case of Hodge most of the hard use units are complete uppers on Colt or FN GOV lowers. Exactly like a Diesel Mercedes taxi that will have 500k miles on it.

Nor is BCM > Colt quality wise. Quality wise they are a wash and despite Colt fan boi / gun fondler fantasies, they source many parts from the same suppliers.

[JonInWA]

I think that the SIG M400 Tread offers a good package and value; I've been pleased with mine, which has been upgraded with SIG and BCM and VTAC components. There was one assembly QC issue-the firing pin retaining cotter pin was improperly installed, resulting it splitting apart and wrapping around...

Nicely reinforced my protocol of field-stripping, cleaning and lubing any gun before any use....


Best, Jon

[ASH556]

Work guns aside, the average consumer would be best served with a Smith Sport (maybe a Ruger). Add Magpul furniture to take and put a Vortex or Sig dot on it and roll on.

PSA ends up looking good on paper with features, but they usually end up with more issues than it’s worth.

[HCM]

Work guns aside, the average consumer would be best served with a Smith Sport (maybe a Ruger). Add Magpul furniture to take and put a Vortex or Sig dot on it and roll on.

PSA ends up looking good on paper with features, but they usually end up with more issues than it’s worth.

PSA within the last year or two has gotten noticeably better, but they still take illogical shortcuts. They’re making receivers barrels and hand guards in the house now and they’re buying their lower parts from Schmidt tool but they’re still using the black Chinese springs to save a few cents.

From the small sample size I’ve seen S&W has noticeably better / more consistent QC and assembly than Ruger.

[Sig_Fiend]

Although this is not a complete answer, I thought I should mention it. At the current time, if you look around on Gunbroker you can occasionally find a complete Colt 6920 upper for as cheap as $400 with BCG and charging handle. Considering that's only a little more than an SOLGW East India upper that doesn't have a BCG or CH, that's probably the best deal for a quality upper I've seen. The only question then would be an equal bargain for a quality lower.

[GyroF-16]

PSA within the last year or two has gotten noticeably better, but they still take illogical shortcuts. They’re making receivers barrels and hand guards in the house now and they’re buying their lower parts from Schmidt tool but they’re still using the black Chinese springs to save a few cents.

May I ask which springs you’re referring to? Things like takedown pin and buffer retaining springs, mag release button springs? Something else?
I have a Form 1’d PSA lower with a Geissele trigger, and would like to feel confident that all springs essential to reliable function are of good quality.
Also open to recommendations for quality springs for those deemed essential to reliability.

[HCM]

May I ask which springs you’re referring to? Things like takedown pin and buffer retaining springs, mag release button springs? Something else?
I have a Form 1’d PSA lower with a Geissele trigger, and would like to feel confident that all springs essential to reliable function are of good quality.
Also open to recommendations for quality springs for those deemed essential to reliability.

The obvious ones being the trigger hammer spring. I haven’t taken a recent one apart and looked at the others but I can’t think of a reason they would source lower Springs from different places.

[Sig_Fiend]

May I ask which springs you’re referring to? Things like takedown pin and buffer retaining springs, mag release button springs? Something else?
I have a Form 1’d PSA lower with a Geissele trigger, and would like to feel confident that all springs essential to reliable function are of good quality.
Also open to recommendations for quality springs for those deemed essential to reliability.

Since you said you have a Geissele trigger, I'm guessing it's using the Geissele trigger and hammer springs, so you should be fine with that.

As far as other springs and small parts in the lower, I'd say the main thing would be the buffer spring. Other than that, most of the others in the lower are not as critical. The fitment between the grip, safety spring, detent, and safety can be a bit of an issue but, not usually one that's going to deadline your gun.

As far as small parts sources, here's some I can recommend:

FN America (https://www.primaryarms.com/ar-15/brand/fn-america/in-stock/false?order=onlinecustomerprice:asc&show=96) - Primary Arms tends to have a fair amount of their small parts which I haven't seen elsewhere. They're quality, and some of them are quite inexpensive.

Expo Arms (https://www.primaryarms.com/brand/expo-arms/in-stock/false?order=onlinecustomerprice:asc&show=96) - Primary Arms' house brand. I have some of their barrels, handguards, and small parts and have been impressed with their quality. Here's their small parts kit (https://www.primaryarms.com/expo-arms-ar-15-small-lower-parts-kit) if you want something cheap that's not a full LPK.

Forward Controls Design spring kit (https://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/AR15-Springs-Kit_p_113.html) - Their stuff is always GTG and they only source from quality manufacturers. Here's their detents and small parts kit (https://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/AR15-detents-and-small-parts-kit_p_115.html).

[awp_101]

I think that the SIG M400 Tread offers a good package and value
I've wondered about those, I don't recall seeing them discussed very much.

[psalms144.1]

Last year I picked up an IWI Zion 16" M4gery. Don't know anything about if it's ready to fast rope into Mogadishu, but I can tell you it's been completely reliable and possibly the most accurate out of the box AR I've ever owned or shot. Last fall I was able to ring IPSC steel from a VERY hasty poorly supported kneeling position at 600 yards on the local range. With 77gr JHP, it shoots sub MOA all day long if I do my part.

Sample size of one and all that jazz, but I'd take a hard look at them.

[HeavyDuty]

I think that the SIG M400 Tread offers a good package and value; I've been pleased with mine, which has been upgraded with SIG and BCM and VTAC components. There was one assembly QC issue-the firing pin retaining cotter pin was improperly installed, resulting it splitting apart and wrapping around...

Nicely reinforced my protocol of field-stripping, cleaning and lubing any gun before any use....


Best, Jon


I've wondered about those, I don't recall seeing them discussed very much.

I have a M400 in pistol configuration, I’m impressed enough with it that I’m prepping it for a Form 1.

[JonInWA]

I've wondered about those, I don't recall seeing them discussed very much.

I won mine as part of a NSSF "Gearbox" drawing several years ago. I won the SIG-Sauer "Gearbox" which consisted of several guns and equipment, and SIG was great about me further tailoring it within the price constraints of what I won. The M400 Tread package I received was very nicely upgraded by SIG, with both the OEM and a lighter 15" M-LOK forearm, a Romeo5 RDS, upgraded ambidextrous charging handle, a forward grip/handstop kit, and a 3-chamber compensator (I chose to remain with the OEM 3-prong flash suppressor). and a VTAC two-point adjustable sling. I added Magpul BUIS sights (needing the SIG front rail segment for that) BCM sling attachment hardware, and a Magpul ejection port cover (replacing the OEM steel one).

I've found the rifle to be well thought out with what appears to be quality components. I have not felt it necessary to upgrade the trigger. The QC glitch with the firing pin cotter retaining pin was easily resolved by Rainier Arms locally; I took it to them when I could not get the bolt/bolt carrier disassembled.

The reviews that I've read have all been pretty positive. I position the M400 Tread as an entry to mid-level AR, and I think they're an excellent value. I've used it in one class and some subsequent training exercises, but mine doesn't have a high roundcount on it to date. The only malfunctions I've experienced were solidly at the door of some improperly specced reloads; since that all have been gauged and rejected if not to spec, with my preference to just stick with factory 5.56/.223. The Romeo5 RDS is quite nice, and I've also zeroed the Magpul polymer BUIS.

Best, Jon

[Suvorov]

I have a M400 in pistol configuration, I’m impressed enough with it that I’m prepping it for a Form 1.


I won mine as part of a NSSF "Gearbox" drawing several years ago. I won the SIG-Sauer "Gearbox" which consisted of several guns and equipment, and SIG was great about me further tailoring it within the price constraints of what I won. The M400 Tread package I received was very nicely upgraded by SIG, with both the OEM and a lighter 15" M-LOK forearm, a Romeo5 RDS, upgraded ambidextrous charging handle, a forward grip/handstop kit, and a 3-chamber compensator (I chose to remain with the OEM 3-prong flash suppressor). and a VTAC two-point adjustable sling. I added Magpul BUIS sights (needing the SIG front rail segment for that) BCM sling attachment hardware, and a Magpul ejection port cover (replacing the OEM steel one).

I've found the rifle to be well thought out with what appears to be quality components. I have not felt it necessary to upgrade the trigger. The QC glitch with the firing pin cotter retaining pin was easily resolved by Rainier Arms locally; I took it to them when I could not get the bolt/bolt carrier disassembled.

The reviews that I've read have all been pretty positive. I position the M400 Tread as an entry to mid-level AR, and I think they're an excellent value. I've used it in one class and some subsequent training exercises, but mine doesn't have a high roundcount on it to date. The only malfunctions I've experienced were solidly at the door of some improperly specced reloads; since that all have been gauged and rejected if not to spec, with my preference to just stick with factory 5.56/.223. The Romeo5 RDS is quite nice, and I've also zeroed the Magpul polymer BUIS.

Best, Jon

I have 2 SIG AR rifles - a 516 and a M400 pistol. Both have been SOLID rifles with the 516 becoming my primary all round carbine. While I have no experience with the Tread, my experience with these two rifles would lead me to view it positively.

The California Highway Patrol issues the M400 so there should be a fair amount of info on them.

[steve]

I have a good friend, recently retired teacher who is wanting to purchase an AR. Actually, it’s his wife that wants them to get one (!). He is a pretty typical shooter—doesn’t shoot a ton but is very responsible. I don't expect it will be a hard-use rifle, but I obviously want him to buy quality. I do recognize that “budget” and “value” do not mean the same thing. I’m asking for recommendations for the best budget trifle that is also a value.


Price wise, this is hard to bear, but is it good enough? https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-w-mbus-sight-set3.html

Other options? Thanks!

That rifle will be fine for him to run hard and learn with. If he has a problem PSA has a door to door lifetime warranty. He can invest in ammo and training.

[pangloss]

https://armsunlimited.com/colt-le6920-oem2-rifle---no-furniture/

No promises, but I may have an extra stock and grip I could contribute if this looks appealing. He'd still need a handguard and sights though. Still, you should be able to get a good rifle for under $1K.

I bought two of these to set aside for my daughter's. I haven't fired either yet, but I think they are decent values.

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

[HeavyDuty]

https://armsunlimited.com/colt-le6920-oem2-rifle---no-furniture/

No promises, but I may have an extra stock and grip I could contribute if this looks appealing. He'd still need a handguard and sights though. Still, you should be able to get a good rifle for under $1K.

I bought two of these to set aside for my daughter's. I haven't fired either yet, but I think they are decent values.

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

I was looking at those for a friend - Dahlonega Armory in AL has them for a few bucks less, plus no sales tax. I agree they are probably one of the best bangs for the buck these days.

[tango-papa]

https://armsunlimited.com/colt-le6920-oem2-rifle---no-furniture/

No promises, but I may have an extra stock and grip I could contribute if this looks appealing. He'd still need a handguard and sights though. Still, you should be able to get a good rifle for under $1K.

I bought two of these to set aside for my daughter's. I haven't fired either yet, but I think they are decent values.

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk


I was looking at those for a friend - Dahlonega Armory in AL has them for a few bucks less, plus no sales tax. I agree they are probably one of the best bangs for the buck these days.

The Colt 6920.

Absolutely the best option for known quality - reliability - price.
No need to "pick two".

No issues about what kind of fuckery with assembly, parts, quality control, etc. might or might not be in the gun.

[HeavyDuty]

The Colt 6920.

Absolutely the best option for known quality - reliability - price.
No need to "pick two".

No issues about what kind of fuckery with assembly, parts, quality control, etc. might or might not be in the gun.

I’d want a Centurion C4 rail on it, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear there are more economical choices for a rail that anchors to the milspec barrel nut these days.

[spyderco monkey]

In terms of 'Value' and bang for the buck, deals on LWRC DI rifles are really hard to beat considering the quality and feature set. For the $1300-$1500 price, I haven't seen anything comparable.

-Fully ambidextrous lower with ambi catch / release
-Semi monolithic handguard with extended rail upper receiver for ~1" more optic mounting space
-CHF nitride barrel with medium/heavy fluted profile
-Enhanced BCG with integral machined gas key, nickel boron coating
-Nickel Boron trigger by Schmidt
-All small parts nitride coated
-Majority of rifle parts made in house by LWRC, assembled with fixtures

These can be found for ~$1350 on Gunbroker, possibly cheaper (searched for 2 mins.) Be careful - you want the MLOK version, not the proprietary rail version.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/965535823


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTh_x3YFBr8

[cosermann]

Number one recommendation for a budget AR continues to be the smith and Wesson M&P 15 sport II. …

+1 Solid, entry-level AR from a reputable, major manufacturer.

[dogcaller]

Just searched “budget AR” using the search function in the upper corner and found much info. Some of it is a couple years old but I doubt the answer has changed much. It might be faster to go this route as it will take several days to get SME’s to answer.



This is true and I appreciate your response. I did try to search under Advanced Search and nothing came up. I was just going about it the wrong way. For some reason, I thought the standard search would just be like punching in into Google...

[Sig_Fiend]

I’d want a Centurion C4 rail on it, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear there are more economical choices for a rail that anchors to the milspec barrel nut these days.

The C4 and C4 M-LOK are nice, but pricey. Great quality, extremely light, and easy to mount though.

For a budget rail, the Troy M-LOK (https://worldoftroy.com/products/battlerails/m-lok.html) and SOCC rails (https://worldoftroy.com/products/battlerails/socc-m-lok.html) are great options at about $130-170. The SOCC is extremely light and slim, somewhat comparable in size to a BCM MCMR. The M-LOK is much larger in diameter and comparable in size and profile to the KAC URX4. I've grown quite fond of the Troy BattleRail M-LOK since the larger diameter and smooth octagonal profile makes for great ergonomics IMO.

There's also the Samson Evo rail (https://www.samson-mfg.com/ar-15.html), which is similarly inexpensive like the Troy rails.

Additionally, there's the Fortis Rev II series (https://fortismfg.com/rails?applyfilter=Z%2BHEITAH5ij4s1g0IKgJUigV9GPQ6n sITgFTPdQDKLc3dHKxZyelbTAR7Io%2BzKZka%2BF62QtxWrx2 %0D%0AjqEHR4%2BkmB%2FB2IriCQwX). They're very similar in design and attachment like the Centurion C4 rails.

There are maybe a small handful of others on the market that use a GI barrel nut for mounting but, these are the main ones you'll find.

[Wake27]

The Magpul MOE handguard is really good for the price. I’m honestly surprised I don’t see it more, it’s cheaper than a lot of stocks and most people won’t notice a difference between free floated and not.

Colts are usually good but they’re not immune to the QA/QC issue just like every other company but their CS sucks. I won’t buy one really just on principle because of that.

If I couldn’t afford a basic BCM, I’d absolutely try out Expo Arms right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[HeavyDuty]

The Magpul MOE handguard is really good for the price. I’m honestly surprised I don’t see it more, it’s cheaper than a lot of stocks and most people won’t notice a difference between free floated and not.

Colts are usually good but they’re not immune to the QA/QC issue just like every other company but their CS sucks. I won’t buy one really just on principle because of that.

If I couldn’t afford a basic BCM, I’d absolutely try out Expo Arms right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

A MOE HG would be my absolute first choice for a gun like this, except the Colt has no front sight A-frame or handguard ring. It’s much simpler to put a long free float HG on it with rail mounted sights.

I could have sworn Colt sold something similar with an A-frame?

[HCM]

The Magpul MOE handguard is really good for the price. I’m honestly surprised I don’t see it more, it’s cheaper than a lot of stocks and most people won’t notice a difference between free floated and not.

Colts are usually good but they’re not immune to the QA/QC issue just like every other company but their CS sucks. I won’t buy one really just on principle because of that.

If I couldn’t afford a basic BCM, I’d absolutely try out Expo Arms right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

To clarify Expo Arms is the “house brand” for Primary Arms. They are sourcing the Expo stuff from quality suppliers like Mega for receivers, CMT for rails etc. assembly on their complete uppers has been excellent.

The only limitation is they don’t sell complete guns or complete lowers. You can get a complete upper from them and everything you need to build a quality lower. Assembling an AR lower receiver is much simpler and easier than assembling an upper which requires a bit more knowledge and specialized tools.

[WobblyPossum]

A MOE HG would be my absolute first choice for a gun like this, except the Colt has no front sight A-frame or handguard ring. It’s much simpler to put a long free float HG on it with rail mounted sights.

I could have sworn Colt sold something similar with an A-frame?

They do. It’s the 6920 OEM-1. The OEM-2 is the one without the front sight post.

[MistWolf]

The MagPul MOE is a good handguard, but the Slimline is better.

[stomridertx]

My standard advice hasn't changed on buying a first AR. I tell people to buy a BCM, the increase in cost is not enough over budget offerings to not spend the extra money considering you get a rock-solid gun to start with. I'm not totally against PSA purchases if you know how to build and gauge the platform. If I wound up with a PSA I would take it apart and put it back together as first order of business, looking for small parts I'd need to replace. ARs are so fun to assemble that I'm invested in the tools to do it and usually pair Aero uppers and lowers with Faxon or BA barrels, Midwest handguards, Toolcraft BCG, and lower parts kits that include Schmidt marked triggers as that is a sign of quality all the way around. My main rifle is still a BCM and I'll never part with it.

[4RNR]

My standard advice hasn't changed on buying a first AR. I tell people to buy a BCM, the increase in cost is not enough over budget offerings to not spend the extra money considering you get a rock-solid gun to start with. .

I used to think that way too but ultimately you have to know the person you're giving the suggestion too. Now I just say big a credible company with a good warranty.

The reason I say this is because everyone I know who has a firearm has it as an object of ownership and not object to use. About 6-8 years ago I was trying to convince a friend to go with a used 6920. Instead, he saved a few hundred and went with a used SW MP15. Both were Police trades. Now, you can argue which is better and TDP and bla bla bla until you're blue in the face but in all those years I don't think the rifle saw close to 200 rounds. I don't think he currently even owns 500 rounds. He hadn't shot even a battle pack worth of ammo so everything that makes one AR better than another is moot. It's irrelevant when you shoot under 200 rounds in close to a decade. And I'm not even going to get started on how it was sighted in. Basically it's close enough!

Another person I know bought one of those PSA AK 9MM rifles and a random red dot. This was during the lockdown panic. Still has no shot one round and doesn't understand why it wouldn't already be sighted in including the red dot!

My dad own 2 guns. (3 total in his lifetime) has only ever shot the gun he sold off and that was back around 2002 when he shot one mag of ammo. I still have that box of ammo minus 12 rounds. He wouldn't know the difference between a Jimenez and a Staccato



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[Wake27]

I used to think that way too but ultimately you have to know the person you're giving the suggestion too. Now I just say big a credible company with a good warranty.

The reason I say this is because everyone I know who has a firearm has it as an object of ownership and not object to use. About 6-8 years ago I was trying to convince a friend to go with a used 6920. Instead, he saved a few hundred and went with a used SW MP15. Both were Police trades. Now, you can argue which is better and TDP and bla bla bla until you're blue in the face but in all those years I don't think the rifle saw close to 200 rounds. I don't think he currently even owns 500 rounds. He hadn't shot even a battle pack worth of ammo so everything that makes one AR better than another is moot. It's irrelevant when you shoot under 200 rounds in close to a decade. And I'm not even going to get started on how it was sighted in. Basically it's close enough!

Another person I know bought one of those PSA AK 9MM rifles and a random red dot. This was during the lockdown panic. Still has no shot one round and doesn't understand why it wouldn't already be sighted in including the red dot!

My dad own 2 guns. (3 total in his lifetime) has only ever shot the gun he sold off and that was back around 2002 when he shot one mag of ammo. I still have that box of ammo minus 12 rounds. He wouldn't know the difference between a Jimenez and a Staccato



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Absolutely agree. After a few years of pushing and only using renowned high quality brands, I gave in and purchased two PSA uppers. Both shot well enough (one was a 1.5ish MOA barrel) and easily made it through 1k rounds. That’s far more than many gun owners will actually require of their guns. So now when people ask, I’ll still recommend a BCM but I’ll also give my thoughts on something within their price range instead of sticking to the “for only a little bit more, go with this brand” (when in reality, that brand is another 40% in cost).


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[willie]

I suggest S&W's Sport AR. In the unlikely event that another budget choice is a lemon or has problems later, I doubt that the maker will provide satisfactory customer service. Smith and Wesson will. My lgs specializes in AR's and stocks very few hunting rifles. The shop has sold 1000's of AR's, and many are budget. They tell the customer to send it back themselves if it crashes. Never has a S&W Sport been brought back.

I enjoy playing with used Hi-Point carbines. They are shit guns that work most of the time, but I would never recommend that the next guy buy one. Ditto for many of the available budget AR's.

[O4L]

I suggest S&W's Sport AR. In the unlikely event that another budget choice is a lemon or has problems later, I doubt that the maker will provide satisfactory customer service. Smith and Wesson will. My lgs specializes in AR's and stocks very few hunting rifles. The shop has sold 1000's of AR's, and many are budget. They tell the customer to send it back themselves if it crashes. Never has a S&W Sport been brought back.

I enjoy playing with used Hi-Point carbines. They are shit guns that work most of the time, but I would never recommend that the next guy buy one. Ditto for many of the available budget AR's.The Sport has a $100 rebate right now. Makes it an even better deal.

[Nephrology]

Absolutely agree. After a few years of pushing and only using renowned high quality brands, I gave in and purchased two PSA uppers. Both shot well enough (one was a 1.5ish MOA barrel) and easily made it through 1k rounds. That’s far more than many gun owners will actually require of their guns. So now when people ask, I’ll still recommend a BCM but I’ll also give my thoughts on something within their price range instead of sticking to the “for only a little bit more, go with this brand” (when in reality, that brand is another 40% in cost).


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Yep, I had the same experience with the PSA 11.5" pistol upper I used to have. It was completely fine. Pretty overgassed but whatever. I wasn't going to put a can on it anyway.

Likewise have had decent experience with aero uppers, I still own an 11.5" that sits on an SBR lower, it will do 2-3 MOA with Wolf Gold. Needed a Bootleg BCG to run with a suppressor but not a big deal. Feeds/fires/extracts everything I put through it, though to be fair, I did not buy Aero BCGs, went with Geissele before swapping to the Bootleg

[willie]

I see the point many are making about budget AR's and understand they can serve certain purposes. If I were a farmer or rancher, I would not treat my $2000 premium rifle as I would a farm implement. If I had kids, I could understand starting them off with a budget AR. Anyway, if it works, it works, and that's good. If not, most of us could get it running.
Let me add that I don't have a $2000 rifle but used one as an example.

[Wake27]

I see the point many are making about budget AR's and understand they can serve certain purposes. If I were a farmer or rancher, I would not treat my $2000 premium rifle as I would a farm implement. If I had kids, I could understand starting them off with a budget AR. Anyway, if it works, it works, and that's good. If not, most of us could get it running.
Let me add that I don't have a $2000 rifle but used one as an example.

I have had and still do have many in that range or more probably (been a while since I’ve mathed them). The more that I’ve had and still had issues with, the more I’ve appreciated the budget AR.


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[MistWolf]

Yep, I had the same experience with the PSA 11.5" pistol upper I used to have. It was completely fine. Pretty overgassed but whatever. I wasn't going to put a can on it anyway.

Likewise have had decent experience with aero uppers, I still own an 11.5" that sits on an SBR lower, it will do 2-3 MOA with Wolf Gold. Needed a Bootleg BCG to run with a suppressor but not a big deal. Feeds/fires/extracts everything I put through it, though to be fair, I did not buy Aero BCGs, went with Geissele before swapping to the Bootleg

What I got by buying and assembling a PSA that I didn't from buying a Colt was an education. By the time I understood how to troubleshoot ARs and properly address the problems, I'd expended enough money in ammo, fuel and range fees, to buy two Colt 6920s, outfit them with Magpul furniture, Vickers Blue Force slings, good optics and a dozen magazines. So much for building my own to save money.

Don't get me wrong, it's been a fun ride and the experience priceless, but there's a reason I tell people to buy a Colt. It saves me the hassle of helping them troubleshoot their new rifle.

[rob_s]

IMO for “most” buyers, this is what you want.
https://atlanticfirearms.com/smith-wesson-m-p15-sport-ii-ar15-rifle
Big name recognizable company, available at local gun shops, reasonable price, etc.


If they think they *need* better then this
https://atlanticfirearms.com/colt-m4-carbine-ar15-cr6920


The problem is somebody will show them a mocked-up-kool-kid ar for the same price as the colt with rails and whiz bang that don’t matter and they’ll bite down on that and refuse to ever acknowledge they made a mistake.

[awp_101]

I have a M400 in pistol configuration, I’m impressed enough with it that I’m prepping it for a Form 1.


I won mine as part of a NSSF "Gearbox" drawing several years ago. I won the SIG-Sauer "Gearbox" which consisted of several guns and equipment, and SIG was great about me further tailoring it within the price constraints of what I won. The M400 Tread package I received was very nicely upgraded by SIG, with both the OEM and a lighter 15" M-LOK forearm, a Romeo5 RDS, upgraded ambidextrous charging handle, a forward grip/handstop kit, and a 3-chamber compensator (I chose to remain with the OEM 3-prong flash suppressor). and a VTAC two-point adjustable sling. I added Magpul BUIS sights (needing the SIG front rail segment for that) BCM sling attachment hardware, and a Magpul ejection port cover (replacing the OEM steel one).

I've found the rifle to be well thought out with what appears to be quality components. I have not felt it necessary to upgrade the trigger. The QC glitch with the firing pin cotter retaining pin was easily resolved by Rainier Arms locally; I took it to them when I could not get the bolt/bolt carrier disassembled.

The reviews that I've read have all been pretty positive. I position the M400 Tread as an entry to mid-level AR, and I think they're an excellent value. I've used it in one class and some subsequent training exercises, but mine doesn't have a high roundcount on it to date. The only malfunctions I've experienced were solidly at the door of some improperly specced reloads; since that all have been gauged and rejected if not to spec, with my preference to just stick with factory 5.56/.223. The Romeo5 RDS is quite nice, and I've also zeroed the Magpul polymer BUIS.

Best, Jon
So a lightly used one with a Whiskey 3 non-illum 3x9 for $850 OTD could be a solid backup carbine?

[HeavyDuty]

So a lightly used one with a Whiskey 3 non-illum 3x9 for $850 OTD could be a solid backup carbine?

That sounds a little high to me, dependent on model. New price for a M400 TREAD is about that.

https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/m400-tread-5-56-30-1-16--prod123871.aspx

[awp_101]

That sounds a little high to me, dependent on model. New price for a M400 TREAD is about that.

https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/m400-tread-5-56-30-1-16--prod123871.aspx

That was my initial thought because this shop tends to run high (and why I didn’t dig into further at the time) but after seeing this one (https://atlanticfirearms.com/sig-sauer-m400-tread-ar-15-rifle-w-scope-rm400-16b-trd-bdx-798681639823) I wondered if I was overlooking something. It’s a different scope and trigger than the local one but I don’t know the market on these.

[HeavyDuty]

That was my initial thought because this shop tends to run high (and why I didn’t dig into further at the time) but after seeing this one (https://atlanticfirearms.com/sig-sauer-m400-tread-ar-15-rifle-w-scope-rm400-16b-trd-bdx-798681639823) I wondered if I was overlooking something. It’s a different scope and trigger than the local one but I don’t know the market on these.

I think the trick will be figuring out the actual configuration. If the used one is that model with stainless barrel, that could be a decent deal. SIG has a gazillion variations.

[awp_101]

https://youtu.be/Aeu4x5lxo88

[HeavyDuty]

https://youtu.be/Aeu4x5lxo88

Strange looking upper.

[awp_101]

Yeah, I think they went for the billet look without it actually being billet.